[War eagle]

Often wondered how much insulation was left out of these "Wangers" cars given the order/build sheet to delete insulation. Starting from the top down, the roof carries a heavy 1/8 to 3/16 inch pad that seems to have a tar like additive. Then a lighter "sound deadner" of about 1/2 inch. The sail panels have an insulation pad at both sides. The kick panels and package tray carry an insulation pad also. Under the upper dash, a pad is also used. The firewall pad probably had to stay. So getting to the real heavy stuff, the very heavy tar pad under the carpet. However early magazine coverage show the wheel house undercoating on the front and rear. (not really an insulation but more of a protection from rocks) Hood pad looks to be installed as well.

Maybe Tenny knows if any insulation exists in the above locations.

[Keith Seymore]

No hood pad on the red car.

I'll let Tenney answer (Scott Tiemann would know for sure) but my bet would be any insulator that is a loose part at the assembly plant would be left off. Any insulator that is part of an assembly (like the backing on the carpet) would be installed.

K

[War eagle]

Thanks Keith. I think the hood pad is on in the Car Life June 1964 issue. Magazine lead times etc. would not date the photo correctly, but I do see the pad, vac operated trips, and no W on the firewall. However April 64 Speed and Custom article has no pad, the W on the firewall and of course the 421 pyramid. Evidently the 2 different cars, one red and one blue.

However is it true the Blue Car paper work has never been found? If so it may not have specific instructions on the build sheet.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by War eagle

Thanks Keith. I think the hood pad is on in the Car Life June 1964 issue. Magazine lead times etc. would not date the photo correctly, but I do see the pad, vac operated trips, and no W on the firewall. However April 64 Speed and Custom article has no pad, the W on the firewall and of course the 421 pyramid. Evidently the 2 different cars, one red and one blue.

However is it true the Blue Car paper work has never been found? If so it may not have specific instructions on the build sheet.

Correct - blue car paper work has not been found.

There is some discussion, too, on the origin of the blue car (ie, was it special ordered by Mr Wangers or was it a pre-existing car he grabbed for his use). If it was a generic existing car that he procured then it would likely not have any special instructions.

K

[John V.]

Interesting what you found in magazine pix. I would have guessed the Blue car was built with Hood Pad and all other standard Insulation. Possibly the hood pad was removed post-production. The Blue car Manifest record has never been made public. Wangers held to the story that it was a non-VIN'd pilot production build. I've never believed that and always believed that I would be able to locate the Manifest record if given access to the PHS records. Perhaps it was bogusly/illegally adorned with regular issue Michigan plates and perhaps they sent it to NYC for C & D testing wearing no VIN tag but that just seems unlikely to me. The option content is pretty well detailed in the Car & Driver article. If I'm correct, the Speed & Custom article shows a GTO wearing the same license plate as the Blue car wore in Daytona, so most likely one and the same.

I have no idea what Insulation was omitted on the Red car during the build but I can tell you the following from Reference document 9775022, the '64 Tempest Acoustical Materials document.

1. The molded fiberglass Hood Insulator Pad was installed during Final Assembly.
2. The 42316 x Tufflex Left & Right Instrument Panel Insulators were installed by Fisher Body.
3. The 52316 x Tufflex or 52790 x Stearns & Foster Left & Right Shroud Center Duct Panel Insulators were installed by Fisher Body.
4. The Amberlite Rubber Dash Panel Insulator was installed by Fisher Body.
5. The 62316 x Tufflex Shroud Side Finishing Panel Insulators (I think these may have been when no duct kick panel duct was used) was supplied by Fisher Bldy but installed during Final Assembly.
6. The 52341 x Fiberglass Inner Surface Shroud Side Panel Insulators were installed by Fisher Body.
7. The Mastic Composition Deadener Front Floor LH, RH, Center Upper, Center Lower, Under Front Seat Cushion, Rear Floor, Under Rear Seat Cushion, were all installed by Fisher Body.
8. The 62316 x Tufflex or 22790 x Stearns & Foster Coupe Front & Rear Roof Panel Insulators were installed by Fisher Body.
9. The 62146 x Tufflex Package Shelf Insulator was installed by Fisher Body.
10. When equipped with the rear speaker, a specific Package Shelf Insulator was installed by Fisher Body and then the Amberlite Rear Seat Speaker Enclosure Assembly was installed at Final Assembly.
11. The sound deadener in the doors is identified as F.S. 1163 and in the rear quarters and for the wheel housing it is identified as F.S. 1300. It was an asphaltic based asbestos fiber material, sprayed on. Not sure what "F.S." means or why there were different nos. associated with it. I'm guessing it is the abbreviation for a particular brand of sound deadening undercoating.

In '63, on at least one '63 SD Manifest, the instruction to "DELETE ALL DUM DUM INSULATION" was found. No idea what "Dum Dum" referred to, but another guess, possibly the floor insulation and possibly the spray on asphaltic material were referred to as dum dum.

The other insulation material was so light weight, I doubt it was useful to delete it. Unless the Red car has been stripped at some point, evidence of the spray on material would probably be visible in the trunk unless it was never sprayed on.

Will be curious to hear if Tenney can identify what was or wasn't deleted.

[Tom Vaught]

"Dum Dum" was used by GM Dealer body shops as a easily formed sealer around around parts when they were assembled to keep out water. "Dum Dum" came on flat pieces of a wax type paper with about 10-12 strings per layer. Several layers in a box.

You either removed an individual string of the "Dum Dum" and applied it just inside the edge of a part that meshed with a second part. When the two parts were assembled you had an effective seal that stayed flexible for long periods of time.

You could also peel off several strings and wad them up in a ball and then make your own THICKER single string around a part you wanted sealed. Body plugs for an example.

Tom V.

[Jerry H.]

I can't speak for 64's, but back in the late 80's I was lucky to be able to look over a low mileage 67 that was ordered with no sound deadning or insulation. As I remember it, there was no insulation behind the firewall pad. No pad under the carpets and no jute backing attached to the carpets. In the trunk there was no seam sealer around where the wheel tubs met the trunk pan, nor where the trunk pan met the rear tail panel. I took pictures but they got lost over time. Also this was before PHS; owner had the protect o plate anyway.

[Tenney]

Per Scott, the only insulation he found when disassembling the red car was in roof and firewall.

No tar paper between the carpet and floors.

No undercoat in the wheel wells or elsewhere, no dum-dum sealer anywhere.

He did run a bead of dum-dum in the of quarters/inner fenders and trunk floor seams when he put the car back together, hoping to keep those once-rust-effected areas free of moisture.

Per Jim, the Blue Car was a pilot car, no VIN, used to sell the GTO program internally. He selected it for Car and Driver because the fit and finish was particularly nice.

[War eagle]

John DumDum was exactly like Tom said. 3M still makes a similar product. If you are in Menards or Home Depot they sell Rope Caulk made by Dennis and it is in a six strand roll rather than flat. This is not exactly the stuff but very close. DumDum can also be found as a caulking gun cartridge and in industry setting as an overhanging gun. I have found the product on my 64 under the drip moldings, behind windo fuzzies to body, and glass run strips along the Quarter windos. The caulk under the moldings suggest that rattles or squeeks while driving was the target.
A pink sealant is found everywhere when removing the floor pans, firewall to taillight panel. This is probably a urethane and mixed in two parts coming directly from a delivery gun. This thermo plastic usually has hot water at the gun, heating the material for a fast cure.

Another spot for sealant is at the front fender arch to the inner wheel house panel. Seals road moisture from fender. I would bet this was also part of the original red/blue build.

Jtea64..... Your library of magazines is far larger than mine. Do you see any pictures of the wheel house areas of the red or blue? Although the magazines would be black and white, those cars would have either red or blue paint in the rear qtr wheel house. Not black. I have always found body color UNDER the w/h undercoat. So Tenny is the rear wheelhouse red? (The blue car might go either way)

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by War eagle

So Tenny is the rear wheelhouse red?

Wheel wells are black front/back. Underbody's red.

[War eagle]

I would bet this is how it left the Pontiac Final Assem plant. Who knows for sure but probably handled as a "repair" at final inspection and handed off as a touch up coating repair. Black Krylon maybe? The red wheel house at rear would have stood out and probably noted by the magazines testing it. Those seams would also appear giving a rather crude look to the construction. The rear axle looks bad enough in the "CARS Magazine" with the black drizzle all over shocks, 1/2 covered axle with spatters and runs.

By the way, the magazines usually show Wangers at the wheel and maybe the writers didn`t really know how or if the car was noisy in actual use. As it were, the deletion of insulation may have shed only 50 lbs. if you add up the repro weights. (Horrible repro of the tar underlayment as sold by PY. Rolled roofing no less, complete with the mineral coating of asphalt shingles)

Thanks for the input Tenny.