[myam]

your thoughts on a recommended oil weight. I'm currently running 10x30 rotella on my new 455 from len williams. I notice a little lifter noise after a long ride (60 + miles).Would going to 15x40 be a better choice? The engine runs great. No complaints.

[Lanny]

The Buttler people told me they ONLY use Valvoline V1 20-50 racing oil .
My 455 runs 100 PSI cold 60 warm I LET THE MOTOR WARM UP !!!
This oil is hi in zinc that your motor needs with a flat tappet cam shaft and wont hurt rollers either .
Auto Zone is where I bought it about $5.00 a Qt. cheepest I have found it .
thats my 2 cents worth
I hope it helps

[AdamIsAdam]

Originally Posted by Lanny

The Buttler people told me they ONLY use Valvoline V1 20-50 racing oil .
My 455 runs 100 PSI cold 60 warm I LET THE MOTOR WARM UP !!!
This oil is hi in zinc that your motor needs with a flat tappet cam shaft and wont hurt rollers either .
Auto Zone is where I bought it about $5.00 a Qt. cheepest I have found it .
thats my 2 cents worth
I hope it helps

GOOD INFO! thanks!!

[Tim Corcoran]

A rule of thumb is use the thinnest oil that provides good oil pressure. The clearances in your engine is an important factor for electing the viscosity of oil. In most cases 10-30 is all you need for a street car unless your oil pressure is low running with that viscosity. Oil not only lubricates but it cools the bearings valve springs etc. If the oil is to thick you won't get enough flow across the bearings and over the top end to keep things cool.

[myam]

Thanks for the help. Rotella is also pretty high in zinc. But I feel your choice is a better route.

[AdamIsAdam]

Rotella is not what it used to be. Unless you find racing oil that specifically says it has the needed ZDDP, you'll need to add this stuff to your oil.

[Dick Boneske]

I use Valvoline VR oil in my 434 flat tappet Pontiac engine. It's got high zinc content, readily available and does the job! I don't see the downside.

[Formulajones]

This subject comes up often it seems.

The Valvoline racing oil does have a higher content of zinc than some other brands. However from what I gather it's only higher in the 20W-50 because that's not an OEM viscosity. Their racing 10W-30 or any light viscosity oil in the racing brand won't have as high of zinc. Their restrictions on that from what I understand come from the car manufacture recommendations of those lighter viscosities. They don't want the public putting high zinc oil in the newer cars that have cats. So they get away with more zinc in the 20W-50 line.

I believe these reasons are why you see some engine builders that will recommend the 20W-50 racing oil over the other viscosities in that line. Scoggin-Dickey did the same thing when I purchased a 502 from them.

Your diesel oils like Rotella and Denso no longer have the higher zinc contents they once had years ago. Starting in about 2005ish when OEM's started installing cat converters on the diesels it was a short time later the zinc was reduced in their oils. So it's no longer a real solution to the zinc dilema.

When it comes to viscosity, one has to pay close attention to the cold flow properties of each oil. There are thicker oils out there that have better cold flow properties than thinner oils. It all has to do with the additive package a given oil has. Amsoil is one such example. Their 20W-50 actually flows better at cold temps then most of the 5W-30's and 10W-30's on the market. This chart here may be an eye opener....Scroll down and pay attention to the pour ratings and the temperatures in which they compare.

http://www.bestsyntheticoil.com/amso...ble/chart.html

I've switched everything over to Amsoil. Mainly because I got tired of chasing other brand oils around with constantly changing Zinc contents and getting the run around from different manufactures about which one has what and how much. Some oil annalys' came back with results that weren't agreeing with what some of those oil companies were publishing. With 9 cars to worry about I also wanted one oil that did everything to make my life easier. So it was time for a change.
I run the Amsoil high zinc synthetic with their recommended extended oil change intervals per oil annalys. The classic cars now go an entire year on one oil change, my duramax goes a year or 25,000 miles, which ever comes first, and the daily drivers are going 6-7,000 miles with what Amsoil considers severe usage. I run the high zinc in everything including the roller cam engines for 2 reasons,
1) Because I like the piece of mind having the extra protection even on other high stress wear areas like piston skirts and rocker arms/pushrods.
2) Because I can keep one brand of oil on the shelf for all 9 cars without worrying or trying to remember what I put in which car.

There are other good oils out there like Brad Penn for example. But the only way to know if you have a safe level of Zinc and that an oil is doing what it should be doing for you, is to send a sample out to Blackstone and have it checked. Might be surprised at what you find.

[The Champ]

Mobil 1 recommends their 0W40 (1000 PPM Phosphorous/1100 PPM Zinc) or their 15W50 (1200 PPM/1300PPM) for flat tappet cams.

I run the 0W40 in the 350 in the Camaro and the 15W50 in the GTO as the Pontiac engine runs hotter.

Mobil 1 is even easier to find than Amzoil.

Link to Mobil 1 chart on ZDDP levels:

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...duct_Guide.pdf

[lust4speed]

"Really good" oil in the past was about 1,600 PPM which is probably a decent number to keep in mind. Valvoline VR-1 racing is now about 1,200 from what I've read while standard EPA compliant multigrade oils come in around 800.

It seems from my talking to different reps, that the zinc additives add about 800 PPM per bottle. So (right or wrong) what I've been doing is using a complete bottle of additive with standard oils, and using a half bottle with the VR-1 for the remaining flat tappet equipped engines. The procedure should bring either type oil up to the maximum recommended range.

I figure that I make up a little of the cost for my roller cam equipped engines each oil change by not spending money on the additives. Fifty oil changes from now and I'll have gained back the cost difference in the roller cam!

[The Champ]

One of the reasons they reduced the ZDDP levels in the regular oil of today is that "excessive" levels would end up plugging the catalytic converters. And of course, the modern roller cams don't need the higher levels.

The 800 PPM level for most regular oils that lust4speed mentions is right based on the Mobil 1 chart I linked above.

[Cliff R]

Modern roller cams/lifters to not need high viscosity oil right to start with, especially factory production engines. They use very tight tolerances for the lifters and lighters oils are recommended for them.

For our old Pontiac engines 10W-30 or 10W-40 is fine, it will show a bit more oil pressure with 15W-40 or 20W-50. Zinc additive is a good idea if you have a flat cam, as they have continued to lower the levels and/or completely remove it from the modern oils, even the diesel and HD/commercial use stuff......Cliff

[chrisp]

Some high zinc oils / additives have poor wear-ability properties , others have good wear-ability properties . Thicker oils create excessive heat & cause premature breakdown & turn black .

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by lust4speed

"Really good" oil in the past was about 1,600 PPM which is probably a decent number to keep in mind. Valvoline VR-1 racing is now about 1,200 from what I've read while standard EPA compliant multigrade oils come in around 800.

It seems from my talking to different reps, that the zinc additives add about 800 PPM per bottle. So (right or wrong) what I've been doing is using a complete bottle of additive with standard oils, and using a half bottle with the VR-1 for the remaining flat tappet equipped engines. The procedure should bring either type oil up to the maximum recommended range.

What I quoted in bold is an important number according to the cam manufactures. They want to see no less than about 1400 PPM's for Zinc content for their cams. That means the Mobil 1 oils aren't cutting it, and even the VR-1 Racing oils are getting on the light side.

Also Mobil 1 isn't the oil it used to be. They have stepped back to using a group III base stock in their synthetics which is a horrible package for the multi viscosity oils (too much parrafins) The only Mobil 1 now available in a group IV base stock is their Extended Performance line. Everything else has lost quality.

I got away from the additives because I found I was spending as much or more on oil changes when I figured all the costs in. I became an Amsoil preferred customer and now buy the high zinc brand cheaper than anything that's on the shelves, and that's with shipping included, right to my door. In a pinch I can run up to the local Napa and get any one of the Amsoil lines right on the shelf but I pay ~$2.50 more per quart that way.

[geeteeohguy]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: racing oil is not formulated for street use, and is inferior for street use. It does NOT have the additive package to live on the street. It is NOT formulated for multiple cold start cycles, traffic jams, and extended service. It IS formulated to provide maximum protection during racing....and is meant to be dumped much sooner than 4,000 miles or so. The fact that a reputable outfit like Butler would recommend 20/50 racing oil for street use has me in serious doubt. Really? I'm basing my information on my own experience as a 35+ year mechanic. The best oil is the thinnest that will do the job (usually 10/30) with Zinc additive. I've been running 15/40 Rotella in my GTO's for the past 15 years or so without issue in my hot climate. Tens of thousands of miles witthout issue. But, my cams and lifters were made in the USA more than 25 years ago, and are of high quality and were properly hardened....unlike the crap parts that are sold today.

[Formulajones]

Correct, the racing oils don't have the detergents packages to keep things clean so they need to be changed much more frequently.

While your rotella choice has worked for you for 15 years or more, the most likely cause of success is because the zinc content in the diesel oils has been reduced only in the last 4-5 years. Before that it had loads of Zinc. It's not the best choice now. But people stick with it because it's cheap to buy, and because they don't keep up with the ever changing oil market and are unaware the properties have changed.

I do believe Butler would recommend the 20-50 racing oil, because I got the same spew from Scoggin-Dickey just 2 years ago with a warrantied engine I purchased from them. The fact that the 20-50 has more zinc than the lighter viscosities is what they are basing that on. I don't believe their choice has anything to do with oil change intervals or the "thin oil is the best" agrument.

[Formulajones]

As far as thin oils, take a look at the viscosity chart I posted with it's pour values verses temps. Not all oils are created equal.

Your Rotella 15-40 pour value is only -25. Not all that great. Look at the same viscosity in Amsoil at -47.

I can even run a 20-50 in amsoil and still have a cold pour temp of -47 so it actually flows better cold then a lighter viscosity oil, even better than some of your 5w and 10w oils.

Food for thought.

[AdamIsAdam]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

As far as thin oils, take a look at the viscosity chart I posted with it's pour values verses temps. Not all oils are created equal.

Your Rotella 15-40 pour value is only -25. Not all that great. Look at the same viscosity in Amsoil at -47.

I can even run a 20-50 in amsoil and still have a cold pour temp of -47 so it actually flows better cold then a lighter viscosity oil, even better than some of your 5w and 10w oils.

Food for thought.

That's what I'm thinking about. I have to read your chart more closely, but if I can run Amsoil 20-50 year round in New York, where I like to drive my car all year weather permitting, then I will. If the zinc levels are good, I'd just put that oil in and change it only once a year since I don't drive more than 3,000 miles a year.

Again, I have to read what you posted, but I do very much like the idea of a 20w-50 (or 10w-40 if that's better) that can flow when cold and that has good zinc content.

[Formulajones]

Glad that helps. I posted that for everyone to see and make their own choices.

It's not that the Rotella 15w-40 viscosity is a bad choice with it's -25 pour properties, that works well for about 1/3 of the country climate. It's the lower Zinc levels it now has that steered me away from it a few years ago.

With a -47 cold flow rating that Amsoil has, there is no reason not to run it year round in most any climate in the US. I look at these ratings not just for cold climates, but for every cold start up you do on an engine no matter what the ambient temps are. A -47 cold pour rating will get moving much faster in the engine than a -25 rating.

Pretty amazing that a higher viscosity oil can do that, and do it better than other lower viscosity oils.

Amsoil has 2 different oils with high Zinc. The Z-rod line, and the Premium Protection line. Either is the same price but the Z-rod oil has an additive package that also fights moisture and corrosion for hotrods that sit for long periods of time. It's designed for those long oil change intervals, up to a year. So your thinking is spot on. I do exactly that with my classics. Once a year oil change, high Zinc, and any viscosity you see fit to use since they all have excellent cold pour properties. It's nice to change it once for the year and be done with it.

[Rick Beller]

Zinc in the form of ZDDP serves as both anti-wear and anti-oxidant. However many misunderstood magazine articles of late have confused many vehicle owners into believing that zinc is at near zero level, which it is not.

Most gasoline engine oils will have 800-900 ppm zinc, while diesel engine oils will be around 1200-1400 ppm.

More zinc doesn't mean that the oil is any better than another. It is the "balance" of all the additives and its' stability during long service that is most important.