[rohrt]

I have some questions on block filler, as I inch closer to possibly redoing my 455.

Is this this something I can do in the garage or should the machine shop do it?

I would assume there would be no issue to do this before taking it to a machine shop.

If I were to do this myself should I de-rust the inside of the block first?

Is there any brand of filler that is better then others?

Should I have any concerns about my cooling ability?

Thanks.

[tiacguy]

Just an FYI the block needs to be absolutely clean inside. Baked or better shot blasted inside the best it can be in order for there to be good adhesion. If it comes loose later it can be a total mess. You only get one shot at getting this right LOL.

[Steve C.]

The "Block Rock" filler sold by Ken Keefer (Pontiac Dude) is a good product and is a easy material to work with. Fast setup time and the block is machinable in 24 hours. Plus they claim it will not crack or separate with age.


Ken's Auto machine shop in Brooksville, Florida
Address: 512 S Main St, Brooksville, FL 34601
Phone: (352) 544-5566

Related discussion on the topic if interested:
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...ght=Block+Rock

.

[Steve C.]

It actually makes the floor of the water passage smoother and assists flow and heat transfer heat better. And that area down at the very bottom gets very little water circulation anyway on a un-filled block (some suggest a 'dead' area). It is correct it will not effect water temps to any great degree after filling and some actually report it runs cooler.

The question comes up, can I suspect the Oil Temperature will be hotter with the Half-Filled Block. This has always been a subject of controversy. I was at a Pontiac 'seminar' many years ago and that subject came up in an open discussion and also confirmed by a old-school PMD racer. Among other noted individuals on hand was Arnie Beswick, Pete McCarthy and Jim Butler. If memory serves me right it was one of those three individuals that agreed. That said, it was noted it did not have a major effect. And if memory serves me right again there was no one in attendance during this open discussion to offer their objection. And yet I know of others that saw no difference in oil temps before and after filling as measured on their oil temp gauge. Bottom line in many opinions don't be overly concerned and by all means install a oil temp gauge.

Comments from Pontiac Dude....

How is oil temp effected by the bottom 2" or so of the filled block. If that was the case then I would not install windage trays and crank scrapers in the engine to keep the oil in the pan. Also the most of the heat is in the head and top of the cylinder where all the power is made when that spark plug fires.

Related......

Taken in part from Jim Butler comments, Q&A section, PE magazine March/April 1997:

They built two engines for Rodney's '82 T/A street car. Both engines had 455 blocks. One was filled and the other wasn't. The filled block ran 10 to 15 degrees cooler than the unfilled block. It was reported upon tear-down and inspection, the cylinder walls on the unfilled block were seen to be scratched and scored from excess friction. When measured with a dial bore guage, it was found to be out of round. The filled block was smooth and bore round. He confirmed you do not lose significant coolant capacity by filling the block. However, the difference in the amount of friction is much improved.

.

[rohrt]

Thanks guys.

I remember a post a long time back were B-man filled a block with muriatic acid. I was thinking Evapo-rust for a couple days to clean the inside of the block. Makes me wonder if the blasting and baking would make it even cleaner or not.

Sounds like my best bet is to get the 'Block Rock" filler and have the machine shop do it.

Steve C that related discussion was why I was asking. My current 455 is a .060 over block. I pulled it out due to bad blow by past the rings. I have not pulled the heads off but it shouldn't have enough miles to this bad. Makes me wonder if the cylinders have distorted. If I end up build another block and I'm sure I will I want to do it right.

[v869tr6]

I have seen where people put straws to the bottom of the block when filling to help get air pockets out,

All the volume taken by the filler is coolant that won't be in the system.

[ta man]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

It actually makes the floor of the water passage smoother and assists flow and heat transfer heat better. And that area down at the very bottom gets very little water circulation anyway on a un-filled block (some suggest a 'dead' area). It is correct it will not effect water temps to any great degree after filling and some actually report it runs cooler.

The question comes up, can I suspect the Oil Temperature will be hotter with the Half-Filled Block. This has always been a subject of controversy. I was at a Pontiac 'seminar' many years ago and that subject came up in an open discussion and also confirmed by a old-school PMD racer. Among other noted individuals on hand was Arnie Beswick, Pete McCarthy and Jim Butler. If memory serves me right it was one of those three individuals that agreed. That said, it was noted it did not have a major effect. And if memory serves me right again there was no one in attendance during this open discussion to offer their objection. And yet I know of others that saw no difference in oil temps before and after filling as measured on their oil temp gauge. Bottom line in many opinions don't be overly concerned and by all means install a oil temp gauge.

Comments from Pontiac Dude....

How is oil temp effected by the bottom 2" or so of the filled block. If that was the case then I would not install windage trays and crank scrapers in the engine to keep the oil in the pan. Also the most of the heat is in the head and top of the cylinder where all the power is made when that spark plug fires.

Related......

Taken in part from Jim Butler comments, Q&A section, PE magazine March/April 1997:

They built two engines for Rodney's '82 T/A street car. Both engines had 455 blocks. One was filled and the other wasn't. The filled block ran 10 to 15 degrees cooler than the unfilled block. It was reported upon tear-down and inspection, the cylinder walls on the unfilled block were seen to be scratched and scored from excess friction. When measured with a dial bore guage, it was found to be out of round. The filled block was smooth and bore round. He confirmed you do not lose significant coolant capacity by filling the block. However, the difference in the amount of friction is much improved.

.

My new shortblock is filled to just above the bottom of the water pump holes.I have installed a oil temp gauge to monitor oil temps as well as an extra capacity oil pan.I will report on the temps when everything is assembled.

[tiacguy]

I can attest to the oil temps being hotter. I always had a mechanical oil temp gauge in my car. After short filling the engine block on a rebuild same engine just freshened I decided to fill it with the thoughts of running a small shot of N.O.S The oil temps went through the roof. I also had trouble keeping it cool it didn't hold as much coolant. I never did end up using N.O.S I ended up pulling the engine out of the car and changing the block. Mainly because this was mostly a street driven car only raced occasionally. It's still sitting in my basement. I personally would never fill a street engine any amount again. Scott

[ta man]

How high did the temps go?

[Steve C.]

A short-filled Block, as stated this has always been a subject of controversy regarding oil temps. Jim Butler, Pontiac Dude and others fill blocks for street performance use. Others say it can possibly increase oil temperature slightly.

Ta man report back after.


.

[ta man]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

A short-filled Block, as stated this has always been a subject of controversy regarding oil temps. Jim Butler, Pontiac Dude and others fill blocks for street performance use. Others say it can possibly increase oil temperature slightly.

Ta man report back after.


.

Will do,I took the advice of a few in the race section,start simple and see what the temps are.After the first 100 miles or so after the first oil change I will be switching to a Synthetic oil again which will tolerate higher temps.I'm fully ready to run a oil cooler,remote filter,oil thermostat and all the plumbing if need be.

[Steve C.]

"It should be noted that way back in 05 I was at Homestead and commented on the high oil temps I had seen on my car to an SRT engineer. He laughed and said that 300 degrees was nothing to good synthetic!"

The maximum thermal specification of an oil is the flash point. This is the
temperature at which the lightest ingredient will vaporize enough to burn, and is a good
indicator of the peak temperature limit of the oil.

What Is The Optimum Engine Oil Temperature?

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/engine-oil-temperature/


.

[tiacguy]

All the Pontiac engines guys can have their opinion and I listened to that nonsense and filled against others opinions. I found out the hard way and it cost me machining another block to correct the mistake. Believe it or not the splash oil contacting the bottom of the blocks water jacket helps cool the oil. Eliminating that and loosing coolant capacity does effect water and oil temp. Here's something else to ponder. My car is a full tube chassis car that had a full length race type oil pan on it and an accu-sump with a remote PF -932 two quart filter.

I was carrying 10-quarts of oil in the thing and the oil temp still ran real hot on the street. Most times the oil temp gauge was buried. When I'd shut the car off you could here the oil sizzling off the engine parts inside.
No joke. When I shut it off it stopped like my diesel truck. That's why I decided to pull it apart I new it wasen't going to last long running it that way. I couldn't afford to loose the entire engine.

After changing out the block never had heating issues after that Good luck . Scott

[ta man]

Did you run a oil cooler,synthetic oil and what temps did you see 250 plus?

[Murf]

I ran a "short filled" 455 in my street/ strip Firebird. .060 455. Probable drove it for 10K miles and it ran 12.0 to 12.2's. I didn't have an oil temp gauge but water temp was normal & I didn't experience any problems.

Murf

Sent from my Z936L using Tapatalk

[jamaca85]

better have a great cooling system, it will run hot... mine ran 30 degrees hotter during the summer....just giving you the heads up....my current block is not filled same over bore too runs way cooler...remember, once you have it in there...theres no taking it out...

[74Grandville]

i run mine as a daily driver filled to bottom of the outer freeze plug and my temp is rock solid at 180...

i'm not sure it's nessessary, but i have not had a bad experience.

I will say the 2 center freeze plugs rotted out this year. They were steel and the bottom was just bearly touching the concerte. I had to change them and luckily i was able to do it with out pulling the engine. This is a 12yr old build.

[Steve C.]

More conversation around the coffee table.

In part....
"Most builders suggest filling the block to the bottom of large freeze plug holes in the side for maximum durability in applications producing at least 600 hp. A “short fill” is best suited for street/strip engines producing more than 550 hp where some additional rigidity is beneficial, but still allows for plenty of coolant circulation."
( How to Rebuild Pontiac V-8s )

Now to my point and already eluded to here in the thread about cooling and filling a block. At these performance levels you had better have a very good cooling system adequate to support 550-600 or more horsepower anyway ! Period.

Similar to already stated here, personally I didn't have an oil temp gauge but water temp was normal and I didn't experience any problems. This was on my previous 580hp 462 combo running on the street with th400 & 3.73 gears. That said, I had a aftermarket aluminium radiator with two electric cooling fans and used synthetic oil.

.

[jamaca85]

i guess here in vegas at 115 degree temps the car would run hotter than other areas. especially in traffic on the baking assphalt. so i guess it all depends what section of the us you live in....

[rohrt]

Is the short fill just up to the sides of the freeze plugs on the side of the block.