[Greg Reid]

Looks like a nice '64 but I'm curious about the Royal comments.
Never heard of special air filters for the trips, blocked off water passages or aluminum rocker nuts...?
I know the tripower on this car is not a '64 unit but that doesn't mean much regarding the Royal Bobcat comments.
Just curious...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1964-Pontiac....c100338.m3726

[rexus31]

I can't speak to the Bobcat questions but I'm leery of this car. The PHS docs denote AC and the dash has the AC vents but the bezel doesn't have the AC controls. Also, the underhood pics show no evidence of ever having factory AC. I'm not buying the seller's reatioanle regarding the AC. Strange. Can later heads be bolted to the '64 block to accommodate the '65 induction?

[Dick Boneske]

The seller has very limited knowledge of Pontiac engines. Royal did not use aluminum nuts on the rockers, did not use those louvered air cleaners. The intake gaskets used by Royal blocked off the heat riser passage in the intake manifold, not the water passages.

The intake is a '65 unit and the heads are '66 or newer. The way someone has rigged the throttle cable bracket to fit the later heads/intake, would not work very well. Note the severe angle that the cable will pull on the center carb stud. The bracket needs to be quite a bit higher to make this right--like the Tripower '64 GTO's had from the factory.

Note that the horn relay is missing from the driver's side fender. There is a patch panel on the firewall where there once was an A/C box, but the dash panel is from a non-A/C car.

This car is a real caution if you are looking for a '64 GTO that is "correct."

[pfilean]

Wouldn't a true Bobcat have been a Pontiac built and delivered to Royal Pontiac.

And it was sold with the U16 tach option but now has a Sun tach. and appears to have the blank off plate in the hole.

He is not claiming it to be a true Royal car (good thing) but is hoping to get some credibility just the same. And as Dick points out about the head and manifold changes. I doubt Royal would be putting that later stuff on a 64 car.

[Chris65LeMans]

Originally Posted by pfilean

Wouldn't a true Bobcat have been a Pontiac built and delivered to Royal Pontiac.
.

I agree about the "sold by Royal Pontiac" part. (I hadn't heard the "Pontiac built" part - but there's a lot I don't know.)

Going by his story, the car wasn't in Detroit until 1973. It seems that he's implying the car had some work done at Royal sometime after that and therefore became a "Royal Bobcat?" I don't know if I agree with that story.

[carbking]

Vendor quote "complete restoration"

Webster quote "repair or renovate (a building, work of art, vehicle, etc.) so as to return it to its original condition."

Maybe some are less hung up on semantics, but in this case, sentences 1 and 2 above are an oxymoron!

It would seem the "new" term in the auto hobby rectification is more apropos (but then it wouldn't be worth as much)

Jon.

[Keith Seymore]

Those "Badger" air cleaners were used by Royal, but on early big cars as far as I know. I have never seen them on a GTO.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by pfilean

Wouldn't a true Bobcat have been a Pontiac built and delivered to Royal Pontiac.

I would say "not necessarily". If you had a car built somewhere other than Pontiac Michigan and delivered through another agency, but brought it to Royal to have the Bobcat kit installed I would consider it a "Royal Bobcat". You'd have to have receipts, or a letter from Milt or something to prove it.

They also did mail order, so you could send them a check and have them send you a kit to California for your own installation. But there again you'd have to have some paperwork, and the rear axle ratio change would not be considered part of the Royal kit.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Earlier post by author/illustrator/historian Eric White:

Originally Posted by Eric White

In order for a Pontiac to be considered a "ROYAL Bobcat", that car had to have originally been sold and modified by Royal Ponitac in Royal Oak, MI. Any Pontiac not originally sold by that dealership, but had had a Royal Bobcat package installed there at a later date was considered to have been "Bobcated". Bobcat packages were also available by mail order from Royal's performance parts department until late 1969. Pontiacs that were owner-equipped with these kits were also considered to have been Bobcated. After Ace Wilson Jr. sold off the "Bobcat" program to George DeLorean and Leader Automotive in the early '70s, Leader offered Bobcat packages and Bobcat package installations. I'm not sure when Leader stopped selling/installing the Bobcat kits. I have heard of kits still being available from G. DeLorean well into the 1980s.

Even though Bobcat kits supplied the Royal Bobcat stickers, true, thouroghbred Royal Bobcats were only Pontiacs that were modified and sold through the Royal Oak, MI dealership.

Successfully documenting an authentic "Royal Bobcat" would require having PHS or original paperwork establishing the dealership-of-first-sale to have been Royal Pontiac. In addition, some sort of vintage recept from Royal's service department indicating the installation of the Bobcat package would also be required. Word-of-mouth is not proof of Royal Pontiac Bobcat kit installation.

Bobcat kits can easily be replicated today. All of the stickers, licence plate frames and GR-RRR plates are obtainable in reprop form, and the mechanical bits and proceedures can be reproduced by any competent mechanic/machine shop.

There may even be a few genuine mail-order Bobcat kits still floating around today. Only if the vintage, original packaging can be displayed with the car, would I consider that Pontiac to be a legitimately Bobcated car. Otherwise, I would consider the car to be reproduced

So, we can have a true Royal Bobcat, vintage Bobcated, modern Bobcated, or reproduced (cloned) Bobcated Pontiac. The proof is always in the paperwork.

[steve v]

I always have to laugh at sellers that refer to PHS as the "Pontiac Historical Society".

[8LUG]

A quote from a old friend: That boy got himsellf a story to tell.

[Jerry H.]

Agree with Keith's 3 posts. I've seen those Badger air cleaners on a couple of documented earlier big cars, but never a GTO. I even owned a set on a 65 2+2 years and years ago before I even knew what they were!

But that ebay car is a joke! The seller either doesn't know what he has or is trying to pull the wool over someone's eyes.

[Greg Reid]

Forgot to mention the other thing that I never heard of regarding the Bobcat package....Offset cam key?
Looks like a fun car but way too many question marks to demand that kind of money. Hard to know if it's even a GTO without some thorough research.

[John V.]

Just curious, accepting Eric White's definitions, if a car was a "true" documented Royal Bobcat, how much does that enhance the value?

JMO, but a '64 tripower GTO w/ 4 spd and equipped with factory A/C is exceptional to me, the A/C would add more value than if it was documented as a Royal Bobcat.

The fact that this car was built with A/C and it is now missing detracts more from the potential value than knowing it is not a Royal Bobcat.

Again, JMO.

From a value standpoint, I wish the market supported a $39K value for this example. But I suspect the value is less than 1/2 of that.

I don't think anybody has mentioned that this was originally Yorktown Blue Metallic, not White.

I'm assuming it does have the Dark Blue interior, some of the pix make it appear Black on my computer screen.

Complete restoration?, either somebody doesn't understand the concept or they were robbed.

I love all '64 GTOs but some are clearly worth more than others. This is in the others category.

I'd like to see the engine stamp, wouldn't surprise me if it is a restamp, the EUN is on the '64 Fremont PHS doc so would be easy to do. But with little of the original engine remaining, even if it is the original block, not sure how much that adds to the value.

Unless the VIN tag has been swapped or the PHS doc has been faked, no doubt the VIN represents a "real" GTO. But would also want to confirm the Data Plate match and would also check date codes on sheetmetal and glass to see if it is likely a tag swap GTO or not.

But at the BIN price, it isn't worth learning more about it. Even if everything checks out that can be checked, seems the asking price is way above market value. Although it would be good for me if the market value is to that level. Would help to justify (to my wife) what I am spending on my '64.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by John V.

Would help to justify (to my wife) what I am spending on my '64.

Be careful, John - sometimes when the wife finds out how much it is worth she will want to sell it.

Don't ask me how I know this.

K