[Dragncar]

Just where are we at and how far can we go. It seems to me with the availability of aftermarket blocks and heads we should be further along.
Is it because, this is as far a we can get with our "mid block" design or there is more to come, just has not been done yet.
I hope for the latter.
Now the power available out a traditional in line layout with siamese intake and center ex runners I believe is at or near max NA. That is without moving the bores around.
To me, Langer putting his engine up for sale is telling. If he had the power he thought he needed to compete in the class he wants to race in it would not be for sale. And those heads have more money/effort than any traditional Pontiac head ever to my understanding.
Little birdie told me he still likes Pontiacs under the hood, can only hope. Loose that guy and the Indian racing world takes a big hit. Lost too many as of late.
Are we at the limit with bore spacing ? Can we get past this if we make a "correctly" designed cylinder head that looks nothing like a Pontiac.
What we NEED to do is get past all the stuck in the mud thinking. There is room for the 500-600HP street guys and those who want to class race against the others.
Even if we get the best head available for our bore space will it be enough. Do we need to go to a block that can run a out of the box BBC or BBF crank with the rest of it looking like a Pontiac. Distributor, valley pan, cyl stagger, front cover ect ?
I know, market share, never going to happen. If thats your side, please stay out of this discussion.
But we can at least talk about it. I A1 and E heads started out that way. All came from that (and LW).
I like what the Boss Bird people are doing. Doing it publicly too. Loosing Mike was a huge loss.
The difference in max NA power between to lowest aluminum RAIV head (E head) and the top (Tiger) is not all that great. Tells me the design is maxed out.
What will it take ? Block wise too. What would a Pontiac bore spaced block with raised/larger cam tunnel, smaller mains LS style get us ? And do we have the head to even make that work ?
Do we need to elongate things. And save it with the "its not a Pontiac" stuff. Chevy, Ford and Mopar guys still their stuff by their original brand name. And we look at their tail lights. That needs to change.

[slowbird]

I think what we really need is less talk and more doing!!

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by slowbird

I think what we really need is less talk and more doing!!

Much easier to talk.

[johnta1]

I'd like to know what the HP level is for the off brand engines using their stock block dimensions like we have?

How far behind are we?

Probably 99% of Pontiac racers are bracket racers.
The others have some class rules they have to adhere to.

Scot Rex is probably the one you should emulate instead of the ones you do now?

He's been doing it far longer than most probably have been alive here.



Next, no one is stopping you from making this block you keep harping about?

If these innovators waited for other people to tell them what they wanted, well I'm very thankful for the real innovators.

[Dragncar]

We all do our part as much as we can financially and desire. What I am looking for is information to be shared with like minded folks. It starts somewhere, why not here.
Most folks who do this thing do it on a level that it does not take away (greatly) from our home life. Few who have the financial means and desire can get it done without negative results at home.
Is it bore space ? I believe so. But given our bore space can we do better. Certainly to get past where we are at there needs to be a head that does not look like a Pontiac. If you think PMD was so bent on their heads looking just like a small siamesed port deal they never would have made the canted valve hemi SOHC prototype. That is where they wanted to go but were not allowed.
It seems around 1300HP NA is our limit with bore space, inline valves and siamesed runners.

[Stan Weiss]

Australian Pro Stock SBC, SBF, SBM stock bore spacing 400 ci. Is making about 3 HP per ci / around 1200 HP at around 10000 RPM. How many N/A Pontiacs no matter what cis have made 1200 or more HP? I would guess no more than a hand full.

As where as Langer. I believe the class he runs has some rule which might rule out the best head design that someone like Visner could make.

Stan

[Elarson]

If these 3 elements are present, there is no upper limit:

Money
Time
A conviction that there's "just a little more horsepower to be found"

To be fair, it gets harder and harder to find gains.

We like to freely share what we learn, hopefully to help inspire others to forget the preconceived limits.

Eric

[Mike Davis]

I'll post my 2cents---
I doubt we will really see much more in the aftermarket world for Pontiacs except the same trickle we have seen.
Vendors show up at Major Sanctioned Races, I haven't seen any aftermarket vendors at Pontiac only races. What they relay back to corporate is how and of what brand etc.
Not enough Pontiac Racers willing to go race other brands and make it work.
Most Pontiac racers are some of the cheapest people I have ever met. Want to complain about engine parts not looking original then throw aftermarket wheels, gauges suspension parts on. Those folks ought to stay with Rallye II's, Hood Tachs and Delco Spiral Shocks, and hit the cruise nights.

There are a few in the NMCA, and a few other associations but not many.

Rex, Langer, Ausmus, Kinsler, Snyder, Punisher have been battling with the other brands for a while and do well.

Pontiac folks need to spend more money, time in the hauler and less time bitching about whose heads are best.

Carry On.

[7T2]

at least third, maybe half of this racing population is retired- on a fixed income. not bashing- time has a way of creeping up on us all.

imo, for this sport to survive it needs new blood. this discussion would be better served as to ideas addressing that

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by Mike Davis

I'll post my 2cents---
Most Pontiac racers are some of the cheapest people I have ever met. Want to complain about engine parts not looking original then throw aftermarket wheels, gauges suspension parts on. Those folks ought to stay with Rallye II's, Hood Tachs and Delco Spiral Shocks, and hit the cruise nights.
Pontiac folks need to spend more money, time in the hauler and less time bitching about whose heads are best.

Ya......this!


GTO George

[Scott Stoneburg]

Ok..just my thoughts. And maybe not the most informed, but...it seems that it just takes someone willing to spend money on a Pontiac. The few that do are competitive in their classes. Hard to compete with cubic inches though and when the BBC crowd goes 632 or bigger you really have to make the most of the 540 or so we can get out of a Pontiac.

[johnta1]

Probably make more HP from RPM than bore size increase?
(especially if bore limited)

[BruceWilkie]

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...39&postcount=2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...41&postcount=3
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...73&postcount=8


http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...84&postcount=9

Truth in all of this!!!

I'll jump back in tomorrow boys .

Time and money the past 9 years has been a huge factor.

[John Langer]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with my current combo. It is a bad piece. It constantly runs at the top of the class I race in. It is feared by the fords and chevys. The problem with my combination and every one of the front runners in my class is that it costs 5 grand a weekend to race my car and the total possible payout for me is only 3400 bucks. It is purely an economic decision. It would cost close to half of what my motor costs to build to build a power adder combo. It will cost much less to maintain a power adder combo. There are more places for me to race a power adder combo with higher payouts. I currently have a 1350hp intake port with an 800hp exhaust port. I could spend more time ($$$$$$$$$$) to develop to exhaust side to get closer to the performance of the intake but how many times do you need to slam your d in the door before you move to a different door? That's about all I have to say about that.

[Tiger Paw]

You're limited by bore size/spacing plain and simple. However you should be able to match 400 Aussie HP, because you have bigger bores. Stroking an is a shi...y way of getting cubes, because you loose to much power to increased ring drag. You will need all the trick pieces the Aussie use light everything and way more testing than you imagine. Forget buying everything, you'll need to make/Fab stuff yourself. Many sets of adjustable headers, many intakes, a dozen camshafts, a bunch of carbs. Torque converters probably half dozen or so. It won't be a HP war, it'll an ET war. That means light driveline components, aero work on the body. It goes on and on. Just when you're close some guy a BIG bank account decides he want a moment of Fame buys the help of the best engine builder and the trickest stuff the most experience crew chief, flies in and rips off a big number.

[Dragncar]

I appreciate Johns L. honesty. It sure makes sense for what he is doing. Even he is not made of money.
I wonder if it possible to make a exhaust port on Tigers to match his intake port without cutting off the down turn and making it look like a big sbc head.
Seems his class is very expensive no matter what brand you run. Sik Goat has inspired fellow Pontiac racers it seems.

[Dragncar]

Looks like a longer block is out of the question at this point. With what we currently have I think H&M is on to something. Straight shot intake and you have a lot of leeway with the ex as it is a billet head. Can design it pretty much the way you want. No center valves to mess things up either.
Time will tell. Few builds coming out.

[grnmnstr]

I don't think there is ever a limit. Somebody will always want to be the fastest. Just need time and a whole lot of money. God bless to those that can do it.

I don't have much time (family, work) and much money. We raced T/S for a few years before the crash. That was a huge set back ($$$). It was fun while it lasted. Always hoping to at least qualify at divisional races. 7.90s didn't always make it. Motor only made 960 HP at 2350 lbs.

We now have 2 cars that we are tinkering with. 72 Ventura and a 78 Grand LeMans. We are going to give Index racing a try this year. 11.50s and maybe 10.0s toward the middle of the year. Eventually working our way up to 8.50s.

In T/S, we were at a disadvantage, because we were "slow" and left first.
With Index racing, we have the same chance as the opponent in the next lane.

The point: Get out and race. It's fun to beat the other brands. Life is short.

[chiefbigb]

Cost to return is why there is no stretched block currently. With all the cnc equipment available today and intelligent operator's it could be done in a reasonable amount of time in billet material. Very few would purchase it and it would mimic what already is there with more head bolts and many years of r and d. Would it blow away the other oem's stuff? No. It would show you spent 3 times as much to go just as fast. It is really cool to see what people like John Jack Billy and Tony Jeff k as well as many others can do with the base design. Today with turbos and nitrous I believe the pontiac engine can make enough power where putting it to the ground is the problem. Na hp is big dollars with a Pontiac engine. Stupid money

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by John Langer

The problem with my combination and every one of the front runners in my class is that it costs 5 grand a weekend to race my car and the total possible payout for me is only 3400 bucks. It would cost close to half of what my motor costs to build to build a power adder combo. It will cost much less to maintain a power adder combo. There are more places for me to race a power adder combo with higher payouts. That's about all I have to say about that.

Power Adder combo would be a good fit for you and your innovation capabilities.

Tom V.