[76TA462]

Looking at replacing my tired TH400 with an overdrive transmission. Other than the installation differences (I don't mind changing up drive shaft lentgh and etc.) is there any advantage of one over the other over behind a plus 500 hp - tq 455. Thanks.

[JLMounce]

Both will need to be upgraded a bit to handle the abuse they may take. It's been my observation looking at both that the costs associated with doing so are pretty similar.

That leaves the gear ratios involved. Behind a large inch, high torque engine, I would lean towards the 200r4 as it's gearset isn't as steep.

Another option in the 700r4 however is the 6 pinion planetary which will change the ratios and get rid of that super steep 1st gear.

You may also want to make a decision based on what ring and pinion you either currently have or are planning to run. The 200r4 is more suited to lower (higher numerical) gearing while the 700r4 is going to be better with a higher (lower numerical) ring and pinion.

You do also have the 4L80E option which is the strongest out of the box and retains the same gearing you have in your current TH400. You do of course have to run a trans control unit with this. To some that's a wall they don't want to scale, but the option is still there.

[Cardo]

Here it comes.....

[geeteeohguy]

The 4L80E is considered the most 'current' upgrade, and is mechanically a better transmission than the other two, all else being equal. That said, I haven't run one in any of my cars personally.

[Chief of the 60's]

Look at the internals as well as the cost to have one built to handle 500 horse and the choice will be very easy. 700r4 will be the only choice out of the 2. Another good choice (or better) is the 4L80e

[Navy Horn 16]

Here is my write up... I'm more than a year into it, and it's holding up great. If you want to go 200 4R, look up Art Carr at CPT and either get one of his units or get the internals from him.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...53#post5758853

Some folks here like to claim that 200s can't handle big torque, in spite of tons of evidence to the contrary.

[Steve C.]

My 2004R has been in use for 11 years with my 505 combo that produces over 600 ft.lbs torque from about 4000 up thru 5700 rpm. Peak torque is about 640 ft.lbs. On the last dyno session it made about 660 hp at 5900/6000 rpm. Non lock up Continental torque converter, 3.73 gears and 27.76" dia tires.

EDIT: Not necessarily a recommendation, just a fwiw tid bit


.

[Chief of the 60's]

LOL! Like clockwork.

[crm318]

Steve C, where did you get your 2004R?

[ponjohn]

Thread a few weeks ago on this very subject.

[Steve C.]

Century Automotive & Transmission in Richmond, Tx.

I wouldn't suggest they or the specific work involved was reasonable in cost. looking back I would offer concerns today. I also changed out the converter they built, way too loose !


.

[pastry_chef]

A detailed analysis 700R4 VS 2004R

I wouldn't run either in stock form.

Originally Posted by jakeshoe

Here's a few thoughts on the WHY a 200-4R will handle more power IME.

First,
The 3-4 clutch pack of a 700. There simply isn't enough apply area. It uses a relatively small piston to apply those clutches, which don't have adequate friction area. There is no easy way to increase this apply area on a 700. There is on a 200-4R.

There are 3 ways to make increase the torque capacity of a clutch. Increase friction area, increase hydraulic apply area, or increase hydraulic pressure.
Increasing friction area is common but you are limited within the bounds of the available space. Typically you use thinner steels, thinner apply pistons, and/or thinner pressure plates/snap rings to do this.
Your steel plates are a heat sink in a clutch pack, somewhat like a brake rotor. If you make it thin it warps, when it warps, then it kills the frictions in short order.

On a 200-4R we usually use stock friction count in the 3rd clutches. On a 700 we are typically using a 7 count or 8 count. We run about the same pressures 260-275 psi line at full TV on both units.

The advantage goes to the 200-4R because we have approx the same friction area, same pressures, but considerably more apply area and thicker steels.

Input shafts..
The 700 uses a steel shaft with multiple feed holes splined into an aluminum drum.
Common failure points are the shaft splitting where the fluid feed holes are, the drum failing at the splines, or in some cases when the drum is sleeved, the entire front of the drum breaking.
It looks more robust but is much weaker than the 200-4R input shaft. We have ran the stock 200-4R input shaft in mid 10 second combos reliably. There is a 4340 input shaft available that is what we use above the 550-600 HP level usually.

Planetary sets.
The 700 planets probably are stronger than the 200. The fact that they are lower geared makes them weaker, but by design they are more robust.
HOWEVER,
You occasionally see failures of the 700 planets. These are almost never power induced, they are caused by lube flow. GM updated them with the oil slinger for this reason.
You don't see these failures on the 200-4R.
My theory is twofold.
The 200 is a shorter package. Less distance for the lube to have to flow, and fewer bushings for lube flow loss.
Secondly, the 700 being longer and having those more "robust" (read heavier) parts actually has very little support to keep those parts running on center. They have a relatively weak bushing design, and wear the bushings because of this.

The 200-4R has a very solid center support between the OD section and the fwd/direct drums, and another between the input planet and the rear planet. It has two center supports to the 700R4's one support. Their fit to the case is tighter as well.

This keeps the parts running on center, allowing better (virtually no) wear of the bushings, and long term keeps the lube flow going to the planetaries.

In either case the planets of either unit are capable of handling 800 HP. The 200-4R is proven to do so, and the 700 planets are similar to the TH350 which has proven the planets to the 800HP level.

On the issue of planets.
The power flow of a 200-4R and 700 are profoundly different. This is a major reason the 200 is a better candidate than a 700 IMO. A 200 has the same power flow as a 4L80E. Other than the completely seperate OD unit, it has the same power flow as a TH350 or TH400.

You have 2 sets of planetaries in a 700, you have 3 sets in a 200-4R.
In a 200-4R, in OD, the rear section of the transmission is locked in direct drive, exactly like a TH350, TH400, or 4L80E. No planetary wear, lube flow isn't as critical to the planets, centrifugal forces slinging the oil off the planets isn't such a problem because they isn't any pinion to ring gear or sun gear motion.
Only the OD planet is in action and it is up front where the lube flow comes in.

On a 700 the rear planets are acting in OD. It has a split sun gear design. Once again more wear on bushings.

Most of the GN guys lock the trans up in 3rd, not 2nd. Some have experimented with 4th gear but as stated the turbo likes to be loaded, so running a really deep rear ratio and using 4 gears doesn't work as good as running the stock 3.42s and 3 gears on those cars.

A 200-4R WILL make a WOT shift from 3rd to 4th stock, a 700 won't. If modified to do so, it kills all detent downshifts and makes it a pig to drive on the street.

All the weaknesses of the 200-4R have been addressed in the aftermarket. Many of the weaknesses of the 700 have been as well but there are some that simply cannot be fixed without a complete redesign.

The 700 has some good features, the packaging of the clutches in the input drum makes it pretty efficient compared to a TH350/TH400 with it's heavy drums stopping and changing directions on gear changes.

My personal opinion is that the 200-4R is always a better choice for a BOP application simply because it bolts up without any adapters.

In a Chevy application the 200-4R is a better retrofit in many cases because it takes the place of a Glide or TH350 with the same driveshaft, it fits the chassis better (floorpan clearance).

However from a pure power-cost ratio, the 200-4R is cheaper to build and install at anything under the 400 HP level PERIOD. From 400-500 the 700 is a cheaper choice. It can be built at that level very cost effectively and reliably.

Above 500 HP/TQ the 200 will come out on top. It get's spendy to build at that level but the reliability is excellent using the proper parts.

I will build a 200-4R for a 700 HP application (although I prefer a 4L80E) and can put it out there and not worry about it. I wouldn't even consider a 700-R4 at that level.

There are many builders who are afraid of the 200-4R. They usually have had a bad experience with them, or "heard from so-and-so" that one failed.
I will say that most of the guys who know how to make them live build them within the GN community and are known vendors.

An otherwise excellent builder can really mess up a 200-4R build because they don't know the tricks to the hydraulics. Internally they often don't require anything fancy but the hydraulics have to be RIGHT. Particularly the 2-3 shift. Same deal on the 700 but it's different, what works there doesn't work on a 200-4R.

The builders who have a proven reputation on 200-4Rs have experimented with their calibrations to get them perfected and the truth is, it takes a few set of clutches to get there. Some builders aren't willing to do the testing to figure it out.

We have actually transferred the theory of what we use on the 200-4Rs to the 700 and it works great but with some changes

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

Thread a few weeks ago on this very subject.

A few excerpts from that....

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

All you need to remember about the TH200R4 is it was designed to be used behind 4 cylinder to very mild V-8 engines. Yes, you CAN build one that can survive behind a 500+ft/lbs torque engine but for how long? The last price I saw on an upgraded TH200R4 from California Transmissons (Art Carr) was around $3500. That is comparable to a Stage 1 4L80E from Jake’s. Brad and I have had some long discussions about the TH400/Gear Vendors verse the 4L80E for my ‘64 Catalina. In a heavy car(4,000+ lbs), I’ll take the 4L80E.

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

You just made the 200r guy's black list with your spot on post.

Originally Posted by brooknice

I must agree I broke my 200r twice after getting it fixed for the third time I sold it. The trans guy told me I was nearing the limit of the 200r with the stroked 400. I now have the gear vendor over drive and I have no problems with it so far. Knock on wood.

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

I could care less. I’ve seen the internal components of a TH200R4. Most of them haven’t. My wife’s 2002 Isuzu Rodeo Sport had a TH200R4 in it. The engine made a whopping 100hp/175 ft/lbs of torque. The engine I have planned for my Cat will be in the 550-600hp range with 500+ ft/lbs of torque. I’ve seen what was left of a TH200R4 after a stout Grand National owner pushed the envelope a little too hard. “Shrapnel” doesn’t fully describe was left inside the trans blanket

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

That is because the 200 is plagued by poor metallurgy. But no one in the 200 clique will research that or admit to it. They'll all go by what their buddy or the internet said. Also, so many of these guys watch these high end auctions but don't notice that all the good high end cars have a 700r4, 4L60, 4L60e or 4L80. No 200's to be found in the good cars or any car there. Hmmmm..... I wonder why?

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

A few excerpts

That are truly not worth reading.
Proven by a friend who built his own 2004R from CK's manual and reading hundreds of technical posts from 2004R experts (yup, not everything was in the manual).
He did his research and took ownership, the self-built 2004R has lived for years behind his 455.

Post 12 above has some accurate information directly relating to the OPs inquiry.

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

That are truly not worth reading.

Why? Because they do not sing the praises of the 200 for which there are none? Facts are facts and unless you basically throw all the internals of a 200 in the trash and spend $3500.00+ to make them somewhat last, they will not. You know what they say about a fool and his money don't you? There are tons of much better choices. Hell, even GM abandoned the 200 after a short period of time. Ever wonder why? Warranty claims were just part of the reason.

[Steve C.]

Apparently Jakes Performance no longer lists the 200R4

http://www.jakesperformance.com/

"....unless you basically throw all the internals of a 200 in the trash and spend $3500.00+ to make them somewhat last, they will not."

Good point, my internals got thrown in the trash

.

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

sing the praises of the 200.

See post 12 for component "praise" from an expert who has actually built more than 30 units living behind power.

My friends 2004R build used similar components to Dave Husek's $2200 "Standard" that is rated for a full weight car to 10.20 E.T.
http://www.turbobuickperformance.com...ard-p-114.html
He was a crafty fellow and also custom built a deep trans pan from two stock pans.

The OP asked about the 700 VS 200.

[Sirrotica]

PC, that quote from Jake is old, isn't it?
After all the dust settles, you quote the guy that has stopped building 200s, 700s, 4L60Es, and currently has shifted the majority of his business to building 4L80Es.
Jake currently doesn't list either transmission in his list of transmissions he builds currently.

His current list of transmission products:

4L80E

T400

T350

Powerglide

Once again, your research is at best poor, because the guy (Jake) has switched his business model primarily to only one OD transmission, the 4L80E. The rest of his offerings are the older direct drive non OD transmissions. I'm sure that someone that has been building all the GM RWD, non OD, and OD transmissions for more than 20 years knows pretty well which of the offerings is strongest. On his site he states that if you want to use one of the light duty transmissions it becomes a wear item. A direct quote from the current Jake's Performance website:

The thing to remember is, typically the lighter duty transmissions become a maintenance item at these power levels (600HP). More frequent rebuilds and failures.

That's the quote from Jake that everyone needs to read.

Also the core supply of 200s is drying up making the business of offering high performance 200s more difficult. Most of shops doing 200s want good cores if they're going to build a transmission for you.

If you think your street engine is 550 HP, and in reality it makes 400 HP, you can probably run either transmission forever, especially with street tires. FWIW, my 05 GTO LS2 400 HP/ft lbs torque, 4l60E (700 derivative bone stock from GM Hydramatic division), has 137,000 miles on it since I bought it new, it's just fine, and I expect it will run double that mileage with street tires. In the end if you just wanna spin your tires leaving a car show and then run it through the gears once or twice a week, the light duty transmissions are gonna be fine. Drag racing with 600 honest HP, with slicks is gonna take a toll much quicker.

Building a deep sump transmission pan from 2 OEM pans impresses you? I built a deep sump pan from 2, T 400 pans in 1973, it didn't impress me at the time, just a kid with no money that wanted a deep sump trans pan.....

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

has stopped building 200s, 700s,

That does not mean a 2004R cannot be built to live in his application!

Today, 01:00 PM
76TA462 76TA462 is offline
Senior Member

Default 700 r4 vs 200 r4
Default 700 r4 vs 200 r4
Default 700 r4 vs 200 r4

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A 4L80E can handle more? No chit, like a overdrive TH400

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Building a deep sump transmission pan from 2 OEM pans impresses you? :

He posted a pic of his pan and custom pickup on Turbo Buick,
Chris and a few other 2004R gurus were impressed! LOL

More so in skeptics eyes, his home built 2004R is living behind an Ehead 455 that should kill it so quickly.