[Gtozy]

Ok, so I have the opportunity to save a 1970 PHS documented GTO Judge RA3, Auto, non A/C, low optioned Polar White. It is rusted thru (literally) from the fire wall back,only the deck lid is repairable.

My questions are:
1. Is it feasable to unpick a donor car from the firewall back and graft onto this one?
2. Is that morally or ethically right?
3. Is it actually worth all that to save one Judge?

I know here will be a variety of answers, but maybe there will be a consensus.

[Pepper Judge]

Interested to hear the varying opinions on this topic!

[Sidponcho]

Call me analytical....but if you cant use a significant percentage of the original car, then it's just a number swap. I'll say 35% for the sake of argument

[Sirrotica]

I'll go with saving 51% of the original car, makes it ethical

[Goatracer1]

Must include roof , main body shell and FRAME. I know a lot of people swap frames but you asked my opinion. The VIN is on the body shell and the frame. You have to draw the line some place.

[BB70]

Take the tags off of it and keep them as a momento and cut the car up. Reusing the trunk lid and tags on another car and calling it a Judge is wrong.

[dataway]

Wow, tough question.

To me it's all about the spirit of the builder ... doing it for a profit ... F you, it's a replica ... if the builder cares about the car and wants to resurrect a great old car, good on you, have at it.

At what point is a body/VIN tag just a piece of metal and not a car ... I don't know.

There are people on this forum, that if they built that car, I would consider it as a resurrection, there are many others in the "business" that I would consider profiteers if they did the same thing.

[Gtozy]

I probably should have said that if it were to be done, I would be keeping the original roof intact and removing the body at the lower section of the B PIllar.

[JC455]

Hard to say... consider this:
If you replaced the floor pans- complete- is it still the same car?
What if you had to replace one of the quarters- still the same car?
Oh no, the other quarter has rust too! Same car?
The rear bumper needs to be rechromed- yours is used as a core, so it's gone...
You want to fix the holes in the firewall.. same car?
At this point, you've done what you're proposing... I guess it depends on how it was done- if you slice the donor 'sheet metal' at the B pillar and upper firewall, then make the same cuts on the Judge, then weld it together, it's getting really close to doing a re-body.
Yet those same panels, done one at a time, constitute a restoration.

[Nobuddy]

I know of a situation 40 years ago where the remains of a very rusty and many times wrecked Shelby GT350H were cut up and thrown in a dumpster. Parted out and scrapped. The data plate and title were sold to a gentlemen in Tennessee as was often done back in the day. As you might expect, the car now exists.. New owner contacted the guy who cut it up and wasn't very happy learning that history. I was told this seems to be fine with the auction company and registry of a for-profit "club". So seems to be acceptable practice in the industry.

[Shiny]

I don't get this thread but am probably missing something. I don't think OP clarified his goals nor intentions.

To me, it's not about what is done to the car it's about how it's represented after.

But maybe it's like JC455 said - what's the line between a restoration and a "recreation"? I doubt there's an answer to that one but when would this distinction matter? Sale or trade is obvious, but maybe also for insurance? Are there other scenarios where a car needs a dollar value assigned to it?

[Goatracer1]

Anyone watch Graveyard Cars? Some of their cars are very close to having all their sheet metal including floors, roof and frame rails replaced. Most everyone thinks it's a great job. I think it is no longer the original "rare" car.

[Gtozy]

Originally Posted by Shiny

I don't get this thread but am probably missing something. I don't think OP clarified his goals nor intentions.

To me, it's not about what is done to the car it's about how it's represented after.

But maybe it's like JC455 said - what's the line between a restoration and a "recreation"? I doubt there's an answer to that one but when would this distinction matter? Sale or trade is obvious, but maybe also for insurance? Are there other scenarios where a car needs a dollar value assigned to it?

Sorry,I thought my three questions were pretty clear. Essentially looking to see how we as a community feel about this kind of work. And if it is worth going to this much trouble to save a Judge. I have the opportunity to do this to a 70 Judge using a 70 Le Mans Sport (no engine or panels from firewall forward) as a donor. At this stage I dont think it is right to do, but i'm very interested to see peoples views.

I think JC455 has it in a nutshell, in saying how does this "Graft" differ from replacing the interior floor, trunk floor and quarters?

I was also looking to see if anyone has actually done this, and just how much work it was.

[gtojeff1967]

I just help a friend with a plain GTO and mostly me he helped a little but we replaced the quarters, roof skin, floors, trunk floor, patched the dash (the part with the vin was out of the car),patched the package tray, new wheel houses inner and outer. I call this a restoring a GTO and it might not be wise but they don't make 70 GTO anymore. Last week I went to auction and a 62 corvette half made into a drag car no motor or tranny sold for 28000 but they don't make 62 corvette anymore.

[TAKerry]

I dont think it should be called an original car if that much has been replaced. There was a published article not too long ago about just this thing. The car was a rare charger, that had just about every piece of sheet metal changed. It was a nice car when finished but personally to me it was akin to a kit car. Not the car that rolled off the line.

[Shiny]

Originally Posted by Gtozy

Sorry,I thought my three questions were pretty clear. Essentially looking to see how we as a community feel about this kind of work. And if it is worth going to this much trouble to save a Judge. I have the opportunity to do this to a 70 Judge using a 70 Le Mans Sport (no engine or panels from firewall forward) as a donor. At this stage I dont think it is right to do, but i'm very interested to see peoples views.

I think JC455 has it in a nutshell, in saying how does this "Graft" differ from replacing the interior floor, trunk floor and quarters?

I was also looking to see if anyone has actually done this, and just how much work it was.

Just looking for context. It's a pretty philosophical topic.

I didn't intend criticism, just didn't understand if you were doing this for yourself or if you planned to sell it? Either way, saving money on the restoration by using a LeMans shell is just saving money to me.

My only "ethics" thought was if you ever sold it as a Judge, I would have no issue at all if you were open about the scope of the restoration. The buyer can decide what it's worth to him if you are open about the process. I can't imagine going through all that work and end up NOT being proud of the accomplishment. The work you people put into these cars is astonishing. Most of these cars look way better than I remember any car looking when the were "young".

To me, the rusted remains of a Judge is a Judge. How much original sheet metal and parts is always a variable on any restoration in my mind.

Why do you say "..I don't think it's right to do"? Do you view it as putting a Judge tag on a LeMans? To me, you propose using parts from a LeMans to restore a Judge. You could just as easily use parts from the Judge to restore the LeMans. Either way, the "right or wrong" part of it in my mind should only come up when you are done and describe what parts are not original to the car.

[72projectbird]

I'd rather have a re-body than a car that was put together like a puzzle.

To me it's not a big deal.

[tom s]

This things come up a lot.Moving a vin from one car to another(re body) I believe is not legal in many if not all states.Moving a complete firewall with the vin tag intact might not be legit but as im told by many restorers is legal.Then you have to deal with a frame if it is a full frame car with its hidden vin.Tom

[Chris65LeMans]

I’d bet more than one “original paint, all original survivor” started out like this.

[Poncho60]

Just buy a decent "regular" GTO and save all the headaches IMO. Not all Judges should be saved....again JMO.