[chrisp]

Oil pan id 5 vs 6 qts .

[steve25]

What do you have a factory pan?

Is it the pan that came on your motor?

If so what year is your motor?

Some general info here for you.

1965 to 71 all the pans where the same.

Starting in 72 I think all the pans then had a baffled.

[Sirrotica]

The pans are all the same if you're dealing with a factory pan, 1973 started the baffled pan, still the same except for the baffle.

Pontiac engineers only changed the crankcase volume by recalibrating the oil gauge (dipstick), the pans were virtually the same.

1967 stands all by itself by having a 7-quart requirement with filter, due again to having a differently calibrated dipstick. In 1968 they went back to 6-quarts with filter and changed the dipstick calibration to accompany the loss of 1 quart of motor oil in the engine from 1967.

I know this because I graduated from automotive Vo tech in 1970, and my first job was on the grease rack of the Local Pontiac dealership. The job required you to know what capacity each car was that you serviced so that you refilled the correct amount and also filled out the repair order with the correct amounts of oil.

Most people are unaware that 1967 the correct oil capacity is 7 quarts with filter, the pans remained unchanged as far as volume.

[steve25]

Can someone please disclose the change in height of the dip stick marks change when a 6th Qt was called for.
I mean judging by the area of the pans sump what could the mark on the stick need to move, .500”?

[Sirrotica]

It's the same measurement as the full and add marks on any Pontiac stick, roughly 3/4 inch from memory.

[steve25]

When I look at my GM parts listings for dip sticks it looks like the fly in the ointment so to speak lwas the 1964 model year.

The Tempest and big cars with 389 2 bbl or 4 bbl carbs used a 9773411 dip stick.

Then the big car 421 standard and HO models, the big car 3/2bbl 389 and 421 along with the Tempest models with V8 used a 9777125 dip stick with a notation that these are a 5 Qt reading.

This same dip stick ( 9777125 ) was used in 65 also.

In 66 and 67 the same 9777951 dip stick was used across the board in all models if they do not have A/C.

Can someone confirm that what I posted here is correct please?

[Kenth]

6 Qts rod were used on 1967 engines (and 1966 as a service replacement since it was revised).

5 Qts rod on all others.

[Sirrotica]

The 67-stick said, "capacity 7 quarts" stamped right on the stick. Near as I can remember all the others said, "capacity 6 quarts" on the 68 and later sticks.

If the stick is stamped 7 quarts, it was a one year only stick. GM could have eliminated that part number as they did supersede part numbers to save on manufacturing costs and inventory. I've owned 67 engines as well as worked on customer cars back in the day. The original V8 stick was stamped "capacity 7 quarts". Of course, a 68 stick will fit in the tube, but it won't read the same as the OEM will for calibration and capacity. The swagged tubes were the same length near as I can tell, the A/C cars had the extension on the block tubes, and of course a longer stick.

This isn't the first time this subject has been debated, someone even pulled up an old GM bulletin saying that the capacities were superseded, and the early information was incorrect.

Mar 29, 2009 · Pontiac Service News Flash number 66-5, dated 10-15-65, reported that the 1966 owner´s guide and shop manuals were incorrect regarding oil capacity. The correct capacity …

Link to a long discussion on GTO forum: https://www.gtoforum.com/threads/oil...apacity.20669/

In 66-67 is when Pontiac went to the shorter oil filter, and that smaller filter will further add more variables to the oil capacity debate.

Suffice to say 6 quarts with a filter will work in any Pontiac V8, if you want to go for 7 quarts to guard against hard cornering, that will also work. This is the way I change oil in my own vehicles as well as customer vehicles with a Stratostreak V8 for decades.

[Kenth]

Again, the 1967 (and the revised 1966) rod is stamped 6 qts.
This is for the amount of oil in the tray, add to that whatever goes into the filter used.
All other rods is stamped 5 qts for the amount of oil in the tray.
Obviously the rod cannot measure the oil in the filter used.

(I would love to see a Pontiac V8 rods stamped 7 qts from factory)

The short filter was introduced for 1967 Pontiac V8.
Long filter for 1966 and earlier.

FWIW

[chrisp]

How about some oil pan flange to bottom measurements , 5-7 qts the pan depth must vary , filter does not hold more the 8oz.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Kenth

Again, the 1967 (and the revised 1966) rod is stamped 6 qts.
This is for the amount of oil in the tray, add to that whatever goes into the filter used.
All other rods is stamped 5 qts for the amount of oil in the tray.
Obviously the rod cannot measure the oil in the filter used.

(I would love to see a Pontiac V8 rods stamped 7 qts from factory)

The short filter was introduced for 1967 Pontiac V8.
Long filter for 1966 and earlier.

FWIW

Kenth, thank you so much for keeping the record straight, I realize you have a library with most any Pontiac spec at your fingertips, something I used to have, but due to space constraints and life, my printed parts manuals were lost decades ago.

I did say, "near as I can remember," that was in 1970, It was 54 years ago. I'll admit that my recollection was wrong. I also was reading the text from GTO forum that the guy said his owner's manual stated capacity was 7 quarts with filter and transposed that information, my mistake.

I was wrong about the printing on the stick it should say " oil capacity 6 quarts".......... With oil additive specs changing there may have been oil grade recommendation stampings that changed through the years. My 71 455 has oil grade recommendations stamped on it besides the oil capacity.

However, with this criticism of my memory, the point that the 67 stick is marked 6 quarts, for a 7-quart total crankcase capacity including long oil filter is confirmed. The 66-67 stick is a different part than 65 or 68. sticks that read "oil capacity 5 quarts"

Now Kenth, if you would refer to your library and also confirm that a 65 oil pan is the same basic unit as the 66-67 pan, some of this doubt about different oil pans can be laid to rest also. I can tell you that if you have the 65, 67, and 68 oil pans lying side by side they look the same as far as dimensions, but not having the parts manual any longer, I have no idea if part numbers from GM changed, or not.

One change is the drain plug moved from the front center, to the driver's side of the sump, I have no idea what year that happened, it would reflect a different GM part number though.

The aftermarket oil pans are one number, and it covers up to 1981, 301/265 engines as well as 1955 287, through 1976 455's. Most aftermarket stock replacements come with the 1973-1981 style baffle.

If the factory oil pan was redesigned for higher capacity, then you'd think oil pumps pickup screens would be changed for the differing depth of the pan, which didn't happen. They did change over the years due to improvements, but still fit the same in a late oil pump, as long as you have the same size tubing of both pickups. The factory never lowered the pickups to account for a deeper pan.

I'll defer to the man with the GM manuals and books here.

I did find a picture online with the 67, 6 quart stick lying next to the 68 up, 5 quart stick, the difference of the markings was roughly 1/2 - 9/16 of an inch with a tape measure in the same picture. All the factory did was raise the full mark, the total stick length was the same on both.

If you want to become completely confused there are all kinds of info on the net about Pontiac Stratostreak V8 oil capacities, some is reliable, and some is incorrect.

Even some of the printed matter in owner's manuals were incorrect as GM sent a bulletin in 1965 saying the owner's manual and the shop manual were incorrect.

As I stated, with a factory unaltered oil pan I run 6 with a filter, 7 if the car will be cornered hard. That has worked out in the real-world experiences. In the end all I care about is the sump has enough oil in it to keep the pickup covered. Anyone that wants to debate oil capacities, have at it.

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by steve25

Can someone please disclose the change in height of the dip stick marks change when a 6th Qt was called for.
I mean judging by the area of the pans sump what could the mark on the stick need to move, .500”?

A few years ago I posted side by side photos with a scale of my '65 and '67 Dipsticks. The length was the same, but the '67 'full' mark is about a half inch higher up on the stick. My '65 and '66 GTO's say "Cap. 5 qts" and my '67 says "Cap 6 quarts". The pans are all the same. The '67 just takes another quart. The 389's I have take 6 with filter, and the '67 takes 7.

[steve25]

Thanks for the above because like I posted about 1/2” is what’s stuck in my mind.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

Attachment 643137

A few years ago I posted side by side photos with a scale of my '65 and '67 Dipsticks. The length was the same, but the '67 'full' mark is about a half inch higher up on the stick. My '65 and '66 GTO's say "Cap. 5 qts" and my '67 says "Cap 6 quarts". The pans are all the same. The '67 just takes another quart. The 389's I have take 6 with filter, and the '67 takes 7.

Jeff, that was the exact picture I was referring to, it just showed up randomly in a search. TY for a clarification.....

Pontiac engineers just made a change to the dipstick, all other things remained the same. Maybe the rumor of a factory deep pan can now be laid to rest.......

[b-man]

So it’s pretty clear that there isn’t a different oil pan used for 5 or 6 quart capacity, just the marks on the dipstick. There are no differences in the pans used for any of the different body styles or different chassis, the pans were all the same basic shape.

With that said there is however a factory passenger car pan (non-Super Duty) that’s one inch deeper than the pans used on on the ‘60s and ‘70s engines that we are the most familiar with: https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...5&postcount=80

The entire 1959 389 thread here: https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=781326

The 1959 389 pan turns out to be an inch deeper than the later pans. I’m figuring that’s to allow for the accumulation of sludge that was common before detergent oils were common and the lead from leaded fuels that ended up in the oil.

The oil pump had a downward swinging pickup that allowed the pickup to rest on top of the sludge layer as the sludge built up. I scraped a good inch of sludge out of that 1959 pan during the cleanup. I’m guessing that the deeper pans were no longer used after the oil pump received a fixed pickup. The sludge was a gray color and I was told it was because of the leaded fuel used back in the day.

Other tidbits of info relevant to this thread, from experience working with a number of these engines. The drain plug was moved to the side from the front in 1970. The baffled pans were a 1972-1/2 change. The sump area on 1964 and earlier pans were slightly wider to accommodate the earlier style sump baffle used that bolted to the #4 and #5 main caps, I tried to slip a 1969 oil pan in place with the early baffle setup installed and the pan simply would not fit over it.

1964 and earlier dipsticks were different than 1965 and up. The block dipstick tubes changed for 1965 and later to a much longer one. The lower dipstick tube inside the pan was also changed from a very long one for 1964 and earlier that was retained by the sump baffle to a much shorter one retained by the new design full-length windage tray that fastened to the #2 and #4 main caps introduced for 1965 and up.

The 1964 non-A/C and A/C dipsticks were the all same length unlike 1965 and later, just the upper tube and its point of attachment (valve cover bolt vs studded head bolt for A/C) was different.