[R 70 Judge]

So I've been having hard starting issues with my 70 TA since I switched to Holley Terminator X EFI. The starter was struggling to generate enough cranking RPM to get the crank and cam sensors to sync so the ECU would fire the coils. This led to lots of frustration and the occasional kick-back. My engine is a reasonably spicy 484" IA2, Stock Highports, Northwind, 105mm TB, 13.8:1, 270'ish - 280'ish @.050 around .710' lift. on pump E85.

Battery is located in the trunk and I did the "big 3" upgrade. Wires are from GP Audio oxygen free copper (OFC) 2/0 power and grounds. 1/0 OFC from battery to starter. Very heavy duty/nice wiring.
https://gpcaraudio.com/collections/i...-bs-ofhc-cable

Starter is a Powermaster XS 9510, which fits great in a 2nd gen with 2" Hooker headers.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/p...0/make/pontiac

Previous battery was Napa Legend AGM 7565 Group 65 with 850CCA - 46.5 lbs
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BAX7...wUUZdngUGS7D7A

New batter is an Antigravity Battery Lithium Car Battery with Re-Start AG-24-60-RS BCI Group 24 - 1800CCA - 19.25 lbs
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/AVB-AG-24-60-RS

I used the Holley datalogging feature to record cranking RPM. I could not get an exact RPM until the crank and cam sensors were sync'ed but you can see on the graph where the cranking RPM was topping out for each battery. The AGM is on a scale of 0 - 300 RPM and the Lithium is on a 0 - 500 RPM.

Napa AGM: 13.1 volts resting voltage, 10.3 volts during cranking (ranged from 10.3 - 10.6 during cranking) 110 RPM cranking

Antigravity Lithium: 13.3 volts resting voltage, 12.5 volts during cranking (ranged from 12.5-12.8 volts during cranking) 325 RPM cranking The Antigravity battery maxed out the starter at 325 RPM. You can tell by the sound of it that it literally cannot spin any faster.

So there are some real-world results from the latest in battery technology. The Antigravity batteries are quite expensive but it was 100% worth it to me. It also has a "Re-Start" feature that rescues you if your battery happens to go dead. Prior to going lithium I was in the process of switching to an X2 AGM 1150 CCA battery but the 80 lbs weight got me looking at lithium's.

[PAUL K]

Good info thanks for sharing

[FrankieT/A]

Side note. Just out of curiosity, how are you handling the crank and cam sensor for your Terminator X?

[R 70 Judge]

Originally Posted by FrankieT/A

Side note. Just out of curiosity, how are you handling the crank and cam sensor for your Terminator X?

Cam signal is handled by a Holley Dual-Sync distributor. Normally this would be fine for both the cam and crank signals, but I'm running individual coils and they weren't happy with the Holley signal. I added a Holley 12-1X crank trigger with hall effect sensor. I had a custom bracket made to use the Holley kit on a Pontiac.

Holley Dual-Sync: Part #565-207BK
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...arts/565-207BK

Crank trigger: Holley 556-171 7-inch 12-1X Crank Trigger Kit, SBC
https://www.holley.com/products/part...8b7963aeb56668

Lots of info on my set-up here https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=858788

[srmmmm]

A lot of the TA and TA/2 cars are running the lithium batteries too. Definitely less weight, but also less prone to vibration damage and more consistent voltage available through a wider charge range. This is the steering wheel dash in a 900HP TA Camaro during the warmup cycle. We take the oil temp to 130, do a leak check, header tube temperature check, and verify data collection before going out.

Lithium battery voltage rarely varies more than 0.1 volts.

[dataway]

I've been transitioning to Li-Fe batteries in all of my equipment and vehicles as their current batteries die. Very happy with the technology. Zero maintenance, seem to hold a charge forever and so far everything starts better.

Yes they are expensive, on the order of twice what a GOOD lead-acid battery costs.

[Dragncar]

The starter you have is a 4.4:1 gear reduction starter.
You might have been able to solve your starting problem by going to a 3.75"1 ratio starter. 25% more cranking speed.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/p...1/make/pontiac

Have you put your car on a dyno to see what your HP gain might be after you went with injection and the latest ignition system ?

[R 70 Judge]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

The starter you have is a 4.4:1 gear reduction starter.
You might have been able to solve your starting problem by going to a 3.75"1 ratio starter. 25% more cranking speed.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/p...1/make/pontiac

Have you put your car on a dyno to see what your HP gain might be after you went with injection and the latest ignition system ?

Unfortunately that starter motor configuration (larger portion closer to the flywheel) doesn’t fit great on my car. I tried the Powermaster 9410 and had to send it back because we couldn’t get it clocked right to fit well. The Powermaster I used has the larger portion of the motor further away from the flywheel… if that makes sense.

I plan on putting the TA on the hub dyno within the next month or so. I don’t think it makes any additional power with the EFI. I probably lost a few horsepower going from a Dominator and Victor to a Northwind. Maybe I picked a little bit of it up going to E85 but I kind of doubt it. With the old set-up it ran around 129-130 mph in the 1/4 @3700’ish pounds. I’m thinking it makes in the 630hp - 650hp range.

[GOAT8U2]

Perfect timing, my GTO on Holley HP and my 12-1 crank trigger is having sync issues from low starting rpm, same as my GN at 120-130rpm. I'm getting the ATX-30HD for my GN and now that you showed this, I'll get the Group 24, 40ah = 1500ca for my GTO so it fires asap.

Dragncar, didn't think about starter ratio, great tip.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by dataway

I've been transitioning to Li-Fe batteries in all of my equipment and vehicles as their current batteries die. Very happy with the technology. Zero maintenance, seem to hold a charge forever and so far everything starts better.

Yes they are expensive, on the order of twice what a GOOD lead-acid battery costs.

Ive been considering a lithium battery for a few years now, but they are just so expensive, Im not finding any good lithium batteries for twice what a good lead acid battery costs, more like 4 to 5 times. A good name brand lead acid around 600-800cca is about $150-$200 for diehard or other house brands at most auto part stores... the one linked in this thread is $1000!

Do you or anyone have suggestions for other lithiums that dont cost as much but are still good quality, I recall TAman used a braille brand like 5 years ago, I looked at some and they were a little more reasonable price, curious how that held up after some time?

[GOAT8U2]

I've been using Dry Cell, Shuriken and now Kinetik HC800 (750ca) and while they're much lighter they're not more powerful. They're great in my little Talon but in my GN it's not enough cranking rpm.

[mgarblik]

I really appreciate this thread. Always want to keep up with latest technology and learn new things I can apply to my cars and use in my classes. Also like the fact that you included real world results and actual test results with data. I was interested enough to spend over 45 minutes on the Antigravity web site looking at various batteries and watched the long video on the site. Also spent some time evaluating the warranty and costs of the batteries. I would strongly recommend spending some time on the site if buying a $ 950.00 battery is a significant cost for you. Like everything in our hobby, every part has a plus side and and a down side, and a warranty to consider. The energy density vs weight can not be questioned vs a lead acid battery IMO. They are really impressive. Also the higher sitting voltage is significant as seen in the cranking RPM tests. Carbureted collector car engines need 80-100 cranking RPM to start right up and provide no issues. Aftermarket EFI engines that sync cam and crank signals apparently need allot more RPM to start reliably as evidenced in thread thread. OE EFI systems need 120-160 cranking RPM approx. So this new LI battery solves a problem. The very low weight is a big advantage as well. The battery management system and the auto-restart system is a neat feature too.

So what is the true cost currently for this cool new technology? Pretty high IMO, at least right now. I can buy a flooded lead acid battery from NAPA, 800 CCA, 2 year free replacement for $153.00. A better AGM 860 CCA battery, 55 AH, $218.00. It weighs 43 lbs. and has a 3 year free replacement warranty. So the Antigravity battery cost almost 5 times as much as the AGM battery and 6 times as much as a flooded battery. But consider it has just over twice the CCA capacity of either lead acid battery which is impressive. If you need it to make your EFI engine crank and start efficiently, it is decent investment I guess.

The only thing I really had a problem with on the Antigravity web site was their claim of "double to triple" the life of a lead acid battery and a claim of "8-10 year" average life span. If this is true, why do they NOT back up these claims with their warranty? I spent some time studying the warranty on the car batteries. It is very weak IMO. They offer a 3 year free replacement warranty which is decent. But it comes with a boatload of fine print and exclusions. Read it carefully. It excludes racing, any modifications to the OE charging system, failed charging components and a bunch of other specific exclusions. I can just see them weaseling their way out of honoring any kind of warranty obligation by pointing to tiny fine print. They offer only a 40% pro-rate and 30% pro-rate off MSRP in year 4 and 5. So the warranty ends completely 3-5 years BEFORE their claimed "average battery life" That is a weak warranty IMO. You also have to ship it back to CA for evaluation and register the battery in 30 days after purchase. Lots of loopholes to jump through. They also mention you need to purchase a specific battery charger type to charge these batteries if needed.

So in summary, do your homework before making the switch as it could be an expensive solution to a problem the vast majority of our cars don't have. But again, I really appreciate the information. Knowledge is power!

[GOAT8U2]

Great thread, I no longer trust any warranty, but it's clear they're saying their battery life is great too get people to do the math on spending $950 if it lasts say 3x longer, it's another fake marketing ploy.

The Kinetik 1200watt (near 1100ca) at $150 and 28lbs seems like a good next option for those looking for a bump in cranking power and low weight.

Their 1800watt (near 1650ca) at $215 and 50lbs is probably a similar cranking rpm result. But that's 31 lbs heavier but also $800 cheaper.

[ponjohn]

A traditional alternator can charge the Lion without issue?

[Shiny]

Interesting thread and appreciate the effort to document real results.

Caught my attention because I am currently converting my camper from FLA to LiFePO4.

My first reaction was it sounds like a very expensive solution to an unexpected problem.

The crank and cam are locked mechanically, right? So why can't the Holley system make some "assumptions" about the "signal sync" just for starting? I'm ignorant but seems like the EFI is putting quite a constraint on starting when there isn't a fundamental need for higher RPM, at least as far as starting an engine.

Carb engines start at lower RPM, why does EFI have to add this burden?

????

Mike

[R 70 Judge]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

I really appreciate this thread. Always want to keep up with latest technology and learn new things I can apply to my cars and use in my classes. Also like the fact that you included real world results and actual test results with data. I was interested enough to spend over 45 minutes on the Antigravity web site looking at various batteries and watched the long video on the site. Also spent some time evaluating the warranty and costs of the batteries. I would strongly recommend spending some time on the site if buying a $ 950.00 battery is a significant cost for you. Like everything in our hobby, every part has a plus side and and a down side, and a warranty to consider. The energy density vs weight can not be questioned vs a lead acid battery IMO. They are really impressive. Also the higher sitting voltage is significant as seen in the cranking RPM tests. Carbureted collector car engines need 80-100 cranking RPM to start right up and provide no issues. Aftermarket EFI engines that sync cam and crank signals apparently need allot more RPM to start reliably as evidenced in thread thread. OE EFI systems need 120-160 cranking RPM approx. So this new LI battery solves a problem. The very low weight is a big advantage as well. The battery management system and the auto-restart system is a neat feature too.

So what is the true cost currently for this cool new technology? Pretty high IMO, at least right now. I can buy a flooded lead acid battery from NAPA, 800 CCA, 2 year free replacement for $153.00. A better AGM 860 CCA battery, 55 AH, $218.00. It weighs 43 lbs. and has a 3 year free replacement warranty. So the Antigravity battery cost almost 5 times as much as the AGM battery and 6 times as much as a flooded battery. But consider it has just over twice the CCA capacity of either lead acid battery which is impressive. If you need it to make your EFI engine crank and start efficiently, it is decent investment I guess.

The only thing I really had a problem with on the Antigravity web site was their claim of "double to triple" the life of a lead acid battery and a claim of "8-10 year" average life span. If this is true, why do they NOT back up these claims with their warranty? I spent some time studying the warranty on the car batteries. It is very weak IMO. They offer a 3 year free replacement warranty which is decent. But it comes with a boatload of fine print and exclusions. Read it carefully. It excludes racing, any modifications to the OE charging system, failed charging components and a bunch of other specific exclusions. I can just see them weaseling their way out of honoring any kind of warranty obligation by pointing to tiny fine print. They offer only a 40% pro-rate and 30% pro-rate off MSRP in year 4 and 5. So the warranty ends completely 3-5 years BEFORE their claimed "average battery life" That is a weak warranty IMO. You also have to ship it back to CA for evaluation and register the battery in 30 days after purchase. Lots of loopholes to jump through. They also mention you need to purchase a specific battery charger type to charge these batteries if needed.

So in summary, do your homework before making the switch as it could be an expensive solution to a problem the vast majority of our cars don't have. But again, I really appreciate the information. Knowledge is power!

I appreciate your input. You brought up a great point regarding the warranty. I was initially looking at the Full Spectrum Power P.Motive IPT7.PM2K13. It has 2000CCA vs the Antigravity’s 1800CCA and is a little more expensive. The Full Spectrum Power is also only 36 amp hour vs the Antigravity’s 60 amp hour. I went back and forth trying to decide until I read the warranty differences.

The Full Spectrum Power only offers a 1 year full replacement warranty and is then prorated months 13-24 at 50% and then months 24-36 at 25%.

https://www.fullspectrumpower.com/bl...anty-explained

The Antigravity battery warranty is below:

The 5 Year Limited Warranty is on a pro-rated basis based from the original date of purchase.
Only ONE battery replacement will be given under warranty.
1-3 Years — Free Replacement
4th year — 40% discount from retail MSRP
5th year — 30% discount from retail MSRP

https://antigravitybatteries.com/pro...es/automotive/

I forgot to mention that I also purchased the Antifravity battery tracker add-on, but it is currently on back order and won’t arrive for a couple weeks. It lets you full monitor your battery via Bluetooth from your phone. I no longer need to leave the car on a tender or worry if it’s has enough juice… Technology can be pretty cool

https://antigravitybatteries.com/pro...acker-lithium/

[R 70 Judge]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

A traditional alternator can charge the Lion without issue?

These batteries are designed for use with an alternator. They do have charging voltage and amperage limits though. I’d have to look it up again but I think it was in the 240amp alternator range and it must charge below 14.8 volts. Again, I’d have to dig for the exact info but that’s in the ballpark.

[cdrookie]

I had a 17 pound Blaille battery in my car for many many years, got it in Summit's discount section. Being a project car it sat forever, and there was something drawing off of it as it would go dead after xx days if I didn't remove a cable. It would charge back up and be good as new, that battery was impressive. It finally gave up about a year ago.

Now to Lithium... The LiTime batteries from amazon have a good rep, and they're cheap. I got into lithium batteries 4-5 years ago to take weight off my river boat. When Dakota came out with a dual purpose battery(can be used as a cranking or electronics battery)I got one for starting my boat. They didn't say anything about the charging requirements, and I found out it was putting a big strain on my charging system. I swapped it out for a Braille and put the Dakota in my car.

There's tons of manufacturers of lithium batteries now. There's plenty of YouTube videos also explaining the differences and quality of them. I'd say the #1 rule of thumb is, if the brand you're considering doesn't have a phone number associated to it, don't buy it!

[R 70 Judge]

Full Spectrum Power has a cool test on their website comparing the cranking RPM of their batteries vs other manufacturers. It’s worth a watch.

https://youtu.be/zuJ6i9Yfrdo?si=ReFXmxhpBs-yeynG

Also our very own Justin Shearer (Big Chief/BrandX) did a really cool lithium test on his Midwest streetcars YouTube channel. Great head to head test with real data and results. Wish he’d visit the board again and contribute. He’s very knowledgeable.

https://youtu.be/d_m7PbDFdo0?si=8J1Xwcg8lsId464K

[dataway]

Any Li-Fe battery you choose you need to check it's compatibility with older charging systems. I think a lot of them require 14+ charging volts.

I've been getting batteries from these guys for my utility vehicles and equipment, all pretty late model. https://earthxbatteries.com/

Tons of info on their site. I like that the fact that they make batteries approved for use in Aircraft.