[KS circutguy]

For the better part of a decade, the automotive industry told consumers that the future was inevitable. Electric vehicles would dominate the roads, gasoline engines would fade into history, and the transition would happen faster than most people expected.

Now the bill for that prediction is coming due.

Automakers across the United States and Europe are quietly unwinding some of their most aggressive electric vehicle plans after a wave of slowing demand, expired incentives, and massive financial losses. The cost of that miscalculation is staggering. The Detroit Three alone—Ford Motor Company, General Motors, and Stellantis—are absorbing more than $50 billion in losses and write-downs tied directly to their EV programs.
Across seven major automakers, total losses connected to electric vehicle investments exceeds $114 billion.
For an industry built on careful product cycles and decades-long planning horizons, the scale of these losses represents one of the most dramatic strategic miscalculations in modern automotive history. Let’s face it, the government can’t force consumers to buy something they don’t want.
Who didn't see this coming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srck2FybWJo

[sdbob]

Its amazing to me a lowly car enthusiast with just 4 yrs of college how a large co. could place almost all their eggs in one basket,ev s. The necessary support, charging stations for one. Let alone the initial cost,up keep cost,repair people, supply infrastructure. I would slowly bring about these ev s. This just happened a good friend. His daughter and son in law bought a new Tesla. Going for service in Pittsburgh the car was sideswiped by a box van. Guy didnt stop son in law chased him down. Co. that owned the van had no insurance on this truck, how I'm not sure, driver got issued a approximately $400.00 ticket that's all. The tesla was totaled!!!!? So husband and wife bought 2 used teslas. They wanted to go to Dollywood. They rented a gas vehicle!!! Why? they were afraid no charging stations in some areas. They planned their trip around charging stations. Their father,we are in train club together, told me this story. Eva are nice back and forth short trips I think. Can you imagine 15 ev s pulling into a charging station at the same time! Like gas cars.

[RocktimusPryme]

I think we tried to leave behind hybrid technology too fast. Toyota agrees with me. EVs have their place and the technology will continue to improve as it always does. Ive said many times an EV would be great for my mom. She lives her life in a 30 mile radius. But its not for everyone.

Personally, as a consumer, I think the bigger problem is we consumers have not done a good enough job of forcing car makers to make what we want. I think a cheap 4-cylinder mini truck would sell great. But the OEMs skirt emissions mandates by making vehicles heavier so the colorado is the size of a 90's F150. And somebody who was good with Excel at some point realized selling one max option escalade was worth more than selling 10 stripper model S-10s. Similar to how someone with baseball said, the extra 5 home runs per season is worth the extra 50 strikeouts with that first baseman not having a two strike approach.

You cant order a base model with the big engine anymore. You want a V8 Camaro, its going to be an SS trim. The only place you can really spec order a car anymore is exotics.

The only people who seem to get what they want are Moms who live crossovers for some reason. Which is wild to me. Those things do absolutely nothing good. No bed to haul anything. To heavy to get good gas mileage. To ugly to want to be seen in one.

[JimFB400HO]

[QUOTE=RocktimusPryme;6608415
The only people who seem to get what they want are Moms who live crossovers for some reason. Which is wild to me. Those things do absolutely nothing good. No bed to haul anything. To heavy to get good gas mileage. To ugly to want to be seen in one.[/QUOTE]

And, from what I see they must be happy with black, white, or one of thousands of shades of gray. (Fact: 80% now on the grayscale.)

[Half-Inch Stud]

Hybrid makes sense.

All-battery eV sounds like bad or incomplete systems engineering. When battery tech is proven, and charging stations deployed, then it can be a choice from gas or hybrid.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

Hybrid makes sense.

All-battery eV sounds like bad or incomplete systems engineering. When battery tech is proven, and charging stations deployed, then it can be a choice from gas or hybrid.

Im not in the market for one, but I like that new Scout with the generator. I would still prefer it to be a true hybrid, but anything thats not relying soley on battery is more appealing to me.

The depressing part to me is I wonder how much further along hybrid technology would be if the OEMs hadnt prematurely left it to try and jump full EV too early.

To be completely fair, when I was visiting a friend in Seattle it seemed like 50% of the vehicles on the road were full battery EVs. So its not like they arent reliable transportation or completely unwanted. I would wager they have stranded faaaaar fewer people on the side of the road than the pre 1980s cars we all covet. But to the OPs point the market clearly wasnt ready for the full court press.


While I fully understand this level of leap to judgement is unfair, I enjoy that the Cybertruck has replaced BMW sedans as the way to instantly judge a person on the road. Fair, no. But its still funny that everyone I know sees one of those and immediately has a negative opinion of the driver. Its like an Affliction shirt and bedazzle pocketed jeans on wheels.

[grandam1979]

Short and sweet if the election had gone the other way EV’s would still be getting force feed to the consumer. I have nothing against EV’s but they need to come on at their own pace and on their own legs not with big rebates that everyone else is paying for. As for cyber trucks I don’t have a problem with them I live in a smaller town and there is a half dozen of them running around I pass one every day on my way to work and it’s the only one that hasn’t been wrapped or painted. Personally no matter what color they are they are all still ugly as can be. My 2¢

[jerry455]

The EVs are nice but not worth a $10,000-$20,000 premium over an ICE version. Hybrids are going to be a hassle as now you have 2 powertrains with a lot more to go wrong. They are a lot more complicated to repair. I still like to drive a truck. It comes in handy a lot, especially to pull a travel trailer. EV trucks aren't there yet. $100,000 is a lot to pay for an electric truck that can't do the job as well as an ICE version. We aren't there yet. Infrastructure or battery technology.

[Scarebird]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

...To be completely fair, when I was visiting a friend in Seattle it seemed like 50% of the vehicles on the road were full battery EVs. So its not like they arent reliable transportation or completely unwanted...

More and more over here - even without any manner of rebate or tax credit. Biggest issue I see is not the range, but as most here live in apartments/condos charging is the issue. Our Peugeot 2008e was about 38.000 € whereas the gas version about 24k including tax. Given gas is roughly $7.29/gallon for 95 octane Simple EV's make sense - especially in summer with solar panels doing the charging.

Originally Posted by jerry455

...Hybrids are going to be a hassle as now you have 2 powertrains with a lot more to go wrong. They are a lot more complicated to repair...

100% agree with this.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by jerry455

The EVs are nice but not worth a $10,000-$20,000 premium over an ICE version. Hybrids are going to be a hassle as now you have 2 powertrains with a lot more to go wrong. They are a lot more complicated to repair. I still like to drive a truck. It comes in handy a lot, especially to pull a travel trailer. EV trucks aren't there yet. $100,000 is a lot to pay for an electric truck that can't do the job as well as an ICE version. We aren't there yet. Infrastructure or battery technology.

I used to agree with you about the hybrids 100%. But Toyota, at least really has the hybrid drivetrain worked out. They are extremely reliable and last a very long time. It's kind of funny, but when their is a failure, it's generally something with the gasoline engine. Go figure. I work on a fair number of 2007-2015 Prius cars. Some have over 300K on the clock. Most have over 175K on them. I have replaced the "big" battery on several. I can buy them all day at the wrecking yard for $500-600. Not cheap but not as much as an engine or transmission. Yes, they are complex and can be difficult to diagnose and repair. But all the newer stuff is. Most of them get 45+ MPG. A full EV could be an excellent choice for allot of people who currently have gasoline cars. The KEY point for me is CHOICE. People should have the choice to buy or lease the vehicle that best suits their needs. Not be forced to into something they don't want or doesn't work best for them.

[jhein]

Without all the Government financial incentives and the "save the world" morality stuff, EVs would be extinct.

[Scarebird]

Originally Posted by jhein

Without all the Government financial incentives and the "save the world" morality stuff, EVs would be extinct.

Not true. They are flourishing in other parts of the world.

[dataway]

I think in Norway it's crazy, like 90% of new car sales are EVs?

Worldwide it's about 22% of new car sales. In China it's about 50%.

Varies a lot depending on typical vehicle use, geographic size of country, urban or rural, cost of fuel, cost of electricity, etc.

The US has a lot going against it for EVs, large country, large rural areas, cheap fuel (compared to other nations), lots of small businesses using trucks etc.

There are some new battery technologies in the pipeline that could really change things. Some claiming 400 kwh/kg density (think 400+ mile ranges), and 100,000 charge cycles (literally lasting hundreds of years), and cost the same as lithium or less, and charge times of like 15 minutes (assuming you have a 700kw charger)

I know I'd love to have an electric commercial zero turn mower that can run for three hours and make 25 hp .... well, they do exist, but cost about $40,000. I mow about 25 acres, during the season it costs me about $50/wk in fuel, but I've got lots of room for solar panels, could charge up the mowers for free.

The way I look at it, the more EVs the more gasoline left for me

[TheCeleryStalker]

Originally Posted by grandam1979

Short and sweet if the election had gone the other way EV’s would still be getting force feed to the consumer. I have nothing against EV’s but they need to come on at their own pace and on their own legs not with big rebates that everyone else is paying for. As for cyber trucks I don’t have a problem with them I live in a smaller town and there is a half dozen of them running around I pass one every day on my way to work and it’s the only one that hasn’t been wrapped or painted. Personally no matter what color they are they are all still ugly as can be. My 2¢

THIS right here. It wasn't a miscalculation by the automakers. It was that the automakers were forced to build EVs by the government. If they had gone strictly on consumer demand, I think this would be a different conversation.

[KS circutguy]

?
Will it burn your house down someday no thanks./

[KS circutguy]

Absolutely correct.
The idea that something should be accepted or rejected solely based on its status in Europe is a flawed argument. It's important to evaluate evidence and context rather than blindly following decisions made by other countries.

[KS circutguy]

lol
If Electric Cars Were Honest - Honest Ads (Tesla EV Parody)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRUg2NXmLd0

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Scarebird

Not true. They are flourishing in other parts of the world.

As you noted earlier, the price of fuel in Europe makes the EV much more viable.

That and the fact that Europeans don't typically drive the long distances that many do in the US (I lived in Europe for over 3 years and drove in Germany, France, Luxemburg, Belgium, Austria and Switzerland - and never drove the distances that I have here in the US).

LIving where I do (MN), the charging infrastructure once you leave major metropolitan areas suck and in many cases is almost equal to the cost of fuel (if not more) when using a high speed charger on the road.

And will there being a vacant charger when you pull in to charge - that is another problem.

I may live long enough (I'm 72) that I may ultimately buy an EV. But where not there yet.

[KS circutguy]

Try paying European electric bills.

[ta6point6]

If it wasn't for the smog regulations forcing auto companies to get better fuel economy people would still be putting leaded fuel in their cars today. Emissions and pollution controls have come a long way in vehicles, the world in general. Fuel injection and catalytic convertors have done a lot to clean up the air. I am sure a lot of us were around when leaded vehicles were plentiful and smog made it hard to breath. I for one do not want to go back to those days, that is called advancement through technology. Todays modern ICE engines are faster than anything built in the 70's & 80's with the air conditioning on. Innovation and technology brought you that not procrastination. If there are problems with modern engines it is improper real world testing, almost every manufacture has had engine problems as of late.
There are plenty of EV vehicles for around 40-50k that have about 300 miles of range. I am still wanting a Silverado EV because it reminds me of my Chevy Avalanche plus it has over 400 miles of range. Not to mention it has 725hp and 775 lb/ft of torque. Sodium Ion batteries have been on the horizon for a while promising faster charging times and of course much cheaper to make compared to lithium. There is an American company making strides in this area, hopefully they beat China to an actual rechargeable battery. EV is just another option like gas, diesel or a hybrid, buy it dont buy it. I think if you look at power tools and how rechargeable batteries have completely changed that segment , this is a microcosm what will happen to vehicles. There are less and less people who own corded tools and air tools are headed in the same direction. Change is coming accelerated or at a measured pace we will see.