[sleepy]

In the last 30 years has the government done anything positive?
MOST schools don't even do on road training. You have to go to private companies to get the road time. ALL of my kids had to do that. When i took DE the school got used cars for the road portion from the local dealer. But not any more.
What's not safe about driving a 15 year old car around in the school parking lot? You didn't have a problem with selling them before CFC. You did work at an auto auction didn't you? Or was that someone else?
What about auto shop? Body shop? Schools are saying they NEED more money to run these programs. Why not give them the cars?

[John V.]

Under C4C's, EVERYBODY qualifies. The Tax Credit for a new A/C unit only applies if you qualify. High income, no tax credit. Pay no tax, no credit. The Tax Credit mentioned is FAR less attractive than the C4C deal. The Gov't picked winners, Car Manufacturer's (foreign & domestic brands) and Car Dealers are winners. Refrigerator and other major appliance manufacturer's and their Dealers are losers. In a free market, the consumer weighs the economic advantages of each choice and purchases what makes sense to him. The Gov't tilted the playing field and people that might have bought the goods that you and I manufacture, sell, or service decided to spend their money on a new car instead. Tell me why I should be happy about that?

Your Gov't is manipulating outcomes and the citizenry are too stupid to see the problem.

Scrap yards may be "loving it". But what about auto repair shops? That old clunker may have been good for their biz. Again, the Gov't decided to pick winners and losers and tilted the playing field.

[Old Blue 66]

John V and Sleepy,

You guys act as if they are taking millions of cars off the road. Its been active for two weeks and might run through September (or when the extra 2 bill runs out). Im sure it will make an impact to the bone yards, but I really dont think repair shops and such are going to be hurt by this. If the program were to run 6 months or a year that would be a different story.

Its good that it hit at this time of the years since dealers need to move last years inventory.

I like the program and tend to think on the positive side. Its progress moving forward and I prefer to think the pro's out weigh the cons in this program.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Old Blue 66

I like the program and tend to think on the positive side. Its progress moving forward and I prefer to think the pro's out weigh the cons in this program.

Eh. I think it's your typical government transfer of wealth. It is not at all clear to me why my tax dollars should subsidize someone else's car purchase just because they happen to be presently operating an older gas-guzzling vehicle. Frankly I would have preferred they just lower income taxes, raise gas taxes, and let the market sort it out.

[sleepy]

This is just another example of government spending OUR money on stuff they should have NOTHING to do with. WHY? To keep the UAW voting and supporting democrats? Remember all the people after the election yelling into the camera: Obama gonna buy me a new car. Obama gonna pay my mortgage?
What will happen next year when so many have a 1 year old car? Re-do the CFC? Go deeper in debt?
Industry in general is in the toilet because people were so far in debt they HAD to stop buying STUFF. Now all of those cars that were paid off (or almost paid off) are gone and the people that bought new ones under this program are deeper in debt.

[fried boloney]

Originally Posted by Ogre

Excellent John V.

There are many "unintended consequences" to this program, as there are to any Government give away of some people's hard earned money to others ... can you say "redistribute the wealth"?

One economist said this morning that wait until tomorrow for the hangover, i.e, when people wake up and see that they owe $400+ per month for their new car. Some will be repossessed, and other folks won't have the money they need to buy other things to stimulate the economy, so it will take longer for our recovery.

Lots of unintended consequences to "free government money."

Ogre

Another of the "unintended consequences" they are not telling anybody about--I heard on the radio yesterday the 3500-4500 you get for your clunker will be counted as taxable income next year when you file your income tax.

[Hitman]

Originally Posted by sleepy

This is just another example of government spending OUR money on stuff they should have NOTHING to do with. WHY? To keep the UAW voting and supporting democrats? Remember all the people after the election yelling into the camera: Obama gonna buy me a new car. Obama gonna pay my mortgage?
What will happen next year when so many have a 1 year old car? Re-do the CFC? Go deeper in debt?
Industry in general is in the toilet because people were so far in debt they HAD to stop buying STUFF. Now all of those cars that were paid off (or almost paid off) are gone and the people that bought new ones under this program are deeper in debt.

Bingo. Or how about all this talk about how unemployment will hit 10% this year. So when that happens all these people that went out and bought these cars lose their jobs and they turn into repos. We as taxpayers should not have to go to the banks to get loans for the stimulus money to get tangibles. It should have come to us period if it was to go anywhere except for funding rebuilding projects to put people to work. They have been real good about talking but very poor on taking action, hence the approval rating going down the toilet everyday.

[GTOnly70]

Originally Posted by fried boloney

Another of the "unintended consequences" they are not telling anybody about--I heard on the radio yesterday the 3500-4500 you get for your clunker will be counted as taxable income next year when you file your income tax.

No it won't. Vouchers issued under the Car Allowance Rebate System are NOT considered taxable income. Therefore, you do not need to report the value of the voucher to the government. If you qualified for $4,500, that is your credit, tax free, on your new car purchase.

Try not to believe everything you hear - particularly on looney-tune right wing radio shows...

[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by Hitman

Bingo. Or how about all this talk about how unemployment will hit 10% this year. So when that happens all these people that went out and bought these cars lose their jobs and they turn into repos. We as taxpayers should not have to go to the banks to get loans for the stimulus money to get tangibles. It should have come to us period if it was to go anywhere except for funding rebuilding projects to put people to work. They have been real good about talking but very poor on taking action, hence the approval rating going down the toilet everyday.

Think of it this way, at least the banks wont be in that bad of a situation when that happens. As strict as the banks are right now, they aren't lending to just anyone and with $4500 off the top, cars purchased under this program might actually have a little equity or be at a break even point. Very little loss if they do go south.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Hitman

Bingo. Or how about all this talk about how unemployment will hit 10% this year.

My take - that's CYA on the part of the politicians. From what I can tell (and I ain't no economist!) the economy really is turning around. Obama buys into the "never waste a good crisis" saying, and I think they want to get as much of their progressive (socialist?) agenda off the ground while there is still a "crisis" to manage.

When people are scared, they'll buy into anything. Look at the Weimar republic. Not saying Obama is the antichrist or any of that BS - he's just a regular ole Democrat, halfway decent guy, and wrong about human nature if you ask me - but you can get people on board for some fairly radical stuff when they think the world is going to hell in a handbasket.

[John V.]

The Champ, and just 3 of them offered by Private Sellers that are probably just as ignorant about the actual value (what they can actually get for their truck) as you apparently are.

The rest are offered by Dealers that will finance the sale. They command a STEEP premium for doing so. Inherent in the offering price (which only an ignoramus would actually pay) is the knowledge that the vehicle was wholesaled for a fraction of the offering price.

The previous owner typically received even less than what the vehicle wholesaled for at auction.

True, you can't easily replace your truck for $4500 but that is a far cry from the dollars that you could possibly liquidate your truck for.

I've actually bought used vehicles privately. A few years back, I bought a creampuff from the original owner with less than 40K miles for $6000. It had been advertised for $8400 because that was what they were being advertised for (remember, that NEVER has anything to do with what they typically sell for). After getting NO response, he progressively lowered the price until I came along with a REAL cash offer.

When the car was totalled a few months later, my settlement with the Ins. Co. was for more than I had paid, thanks to the fact that others were being advertised for the much higher amount, which I happily provided Autotrader.com evidence to the Ins. Co. to prove my case. But the wholesale value was even less than I had paid, as much as 1/4 less.

Most buyers pay the retail price because that is the only way they can get financing. So what is the vehicle really worth? Only what you can liquidate it for. Wholesale value, nothing more, nothing less. I'll guess that not 10 of those 97 will be sold in the next two weeks. And those that do sell will sell for a lot less than the median of the advertised prices you are seeing.

Too many dollars are being wasted (put to woefully inefficient use) for the benefit of some at the expense of others. For those that loved the joy ride that was the late '70s under Carter, well, happy days are here again. With a little more "stimulus", heck, we may yet return to that halcyon decade that was the '30s under FDR. I'm not sure what we will see first, collapse of the value of the dollar or hyper-inflation. But it doesn't look pretty from where I sit.

Old Blue, you may think I'm just a pessimist. I believe I'm carefully evaluating the reality based on knowledge, research, and facts so that I can best protect my own interests.

BTW, GTOnly70 is correct, no tax to the individual for the voucher (although it IS considered revenue to the Dealer). But somehow it doesn't make me feel much better to know that taxpayers had to gross something like $18K to produce the $4500 tax revenue that was cavalierly distributed to favored status auto makers and car dealers. Who knows what more efficient use could have been made of those funds?

[tigercars]

True, there are winners and losers in all this stimulus spending. When Chrysler and GM entered bankruptcy, my employer, US Steel shut down 3 of its 5 plants in the US. With GM and Chrysler back making cars 2 of those, mine included are back -up making steel and I have a paycheck. The third one is calling people back this week to start up soon. Another member of this board works there. Do you think he's in favor of CFC? For all you guys who think that the sky is falling and the glass is half empty, that's your perogative. For me the glass is half full and CFC was one of the cheapest ways to get a little life back into the auto industry.

[mikeb]

Originally Posted by Old Blue 66

Do you really want teenagers who are just learing to drive, learn on a 15 year old vehicle? Is that safe? And at what cost would it take to make them safe??

My 16 year old daughter is working to restore her 30 year old trans am, which will be quite safe before she steps into it. 15 years? whoopie doo. Modern cars can easily go more than 15 years. My youngest daughter is now learning to drive on a 10 year old expedition with 165k miles on it, which I think is quite safe.

As far as the Ford vs. GM pissing match going on here? Who gives a crap? Ford has built lemons. GM has built lemons. Ford has built great cars, and so has GM. It's the luck of the draw.

[sleepy]

Originally Posted by mikeb

My 16 year old daughter is working to restore her 30 year old trans am, which will be quite safe before she steps into it. 15 years? whoopie doo. Modern cars can easily go more than 15 years. My youngest daughter is now learning to drive on a 10 year old expedition with 165k miles on it, which I think is quite safe.

As far as the Ford vs. GM pissing match going on here? Who gives a crap? Ford has built lemons. GM has built lemons. Ford has built great cars, and so has GM. It's the luck of the draw.

My vette is 19 years old and my wife's is 24 years old. I would trust either one or any of our cars( 85, 90, 2 98s, 01,02) to go across the country and back without a second thought.

[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by mikeb

My 16 year old daughter is working to restore her 30 year old trans am, which will be quite safe before she steps into it. 15 years? whoopie doo. Modern cars can easily go more than 15 years. My youngest daughter is now learning to drive on a 10 year old expedition with 165k miles on it, which I think is quite safe.

As far as the Ford vs. GM pissing match going on here? Who gives a crap? Ford has built lemons. GM has built lemons. Ford has built great cars, and so has GM. It's the luck of the draw.

Mike those are YOUR cars. And because they are YOUR cars, they are the best used cars on the planet because YOU know the history.

The cars suggested to be used as drivers ed cars have no history and having been in that business for quite some time, Ive seen the condition a 15 year old trade that nobody wants can be in and under no circumstances do I want my daughter driving one of them.

Please spare me the saga of your cars and how safe they are. While they might be great vehicles, they are not to someone else sitting on a car lot waiting to be wholesaled because the value doesnt match up to what unknown repairs they might need. They blend in with all the other junkers.

Saying all of this excludes the TA of course.

[PB]

Anyone else think of the possible short term effects on the used car market? My line of thinking is that the supply of good used cars that are now "trashed" is now dwindled and thusly the price of my good used '99 Grand Prix GTP with 230K miles has just increased. Okay, maybe not that much, but I'm sure the short term, the value of used cars will increase. Long term, like others have said, IF people can't make payments, there MAY be an onslaught of good used vehicles again....BUT If people are buying now, I'm guessing they will be able to make payments. I could buy a new car now, but I don't want a payment. I think it is horrible to junk a perfectly good used vehicle....the true "clunkers" are not the ones getting destroyed.

[Ogre]

Originally Posted by PB

...
I think it is horrible to junk a perfectly good used vehicle....the true "clunkers" are not the ones getting destroyed.

Pat,

It might not be that bad. I caught a brief news report that said there is a loophole in the law passed by Congress (who woulda thunk it?). Some dealers seem to be moving the vehicles out the back door to wholesalers who take them to auction markets.

According to the story, if dealers think they can make over $4500 (or $3500) there is a way for them to make a profit on a resale of the vehicle.

Sorry, I don't have all of the details ... I just caught part of it (might have been Cavuto). Since I'm not interested in a new car, I don't pay much attention to the C4C program. Just more of my tax money being spent where the gov't shouldn't be involved. I like free market solutions without government involvement.

My ,
Ogre

[PB]

That makes sense to me Ogre...I saw something last night on our local news about the C4C program. They talked to a dealer who says "screw the goverment" here's the story:

http://www.nbcactionnews.com/content...npumwqpPg.cspx

Say's he gives the 4500 to everbody....say's he's had problems with the ones he's submitted to the government and they come back saying the car in question doesn't qualify. Interesting read.

[iowapub]

Originally Posted by Old Blue 66

Mike those are YOUR cars. And because they are YOUR cars, they are the best used cars on the planet because YOU know the history.

The cars suggested to be used as drivers ed cars have no history and having been in that business for quite some time, Ive seen the condition a 15 year old trade that nobody wants can be in and under no circumstances do I want my daughter driving one of them.

Please spare me the saga of your cars and how safe they are. While they might be great vehicles, they are not to someone else sitting on a car lot waiting to be wholesaled because the value doesnt match up to what unknown repairs they might need. They blend in with all the other junkers.

Saying all of this excludes the TA of course.

And old blue was a used car salesman, he must be right. I could never buy at wholesale and sell at retail, that's way too complicated. He even knew the red Cherokee was damaged in the rear, where the photo didn't show. Typical, your car is crap, MY used car has been checked out and it is safe and reliable........wtf?

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by John V.

The Champ, and just 3 of them offered by Private Sellers that are probably just as ignorant about the actual value (what they can actually get for their truck) as you apparently are.

Thanks for calling me ignorant. I really appreciate that. You may want to do some more research and you may find out that I am far from ignorant.

The rest are offered by Dealers that will finance the sale. They command a STEEP premium for doing so. Inherent in the offering price (which only an ignoramus would actually pay) is the knowledge that the vehicle was wholesaled for a fraction of the offering price.

Several of those "Dealers that will finance the sale" that you mention are in fact new car dealers. I can understand how you might not know that Grover Auto Company was a Buick, Chevrolet, Pontiac dealer, but how hard is it to realize that Clements Chevrolet, Karl's Chevrolet, Sleepy Hollow Chevrolet, Buick, Pontiac GMC, Belle Plaine Buick Chevrolet, Country Chevrolet, Mel Carlson Chevrolet, etc are new car dealers.

I didn't take the time to look at all 97 just now, but 12 of the trucks on the first page are new car dealers in this area - not "buy here, pay here" dealers. Maybe a few of the other trucks are the type dealers you refer to - but you point is misguided at best - ignorant at worst.

True, you can't easily replace your truck for $4500 but that is a far cry from the dollars that you could possibly liquidate your truck for.

Absolutely correct on both points. I couldn't replace my truck for $4500.00. I don't need to liquidate my truck though, so why should I give it to the government for less than what it would cost to replace it?

I've actually bought used vehicles privately. A few years back, I bought a creampuff from the original owner with less than 40K miles for $6000. It had been advertised for $8400 because that was what they were being advertised for (remember, that NEVER has anything to do with what they typically sell for). After getting NO response, he progressively lowered the price until I came along with a REAL cash offer.

Great - you've bought used vehicles privately. So have I - and most of the rest of us on this board. You bought your vehicle for less than the asking price. Great - most of the rest of us have too. The prices on that link range from $4900.00 - $10995 with an average of over $7600.00. Assuming the same 29% discount that you received on your vehicle that means that the actual sale prices range from $3500.00 - 7800.00 with an average of over $5400.

When the car was totalled a few months later, my settlement with the Ins. Co. was for more than I had paid, thanks to the fact that others were being advertised for the much higher amount, which I happily provided Autotrader.com evidence to the Ins. Co. to prove my case. But the wholesale value was even less than I had paid, as much as 1/4 less.

So, you openly admit to to "bilking" the insurance company?

What you really did was use the same information I used to provide what it would cost to replace your vehicle. Evidently you felt your vehicle was "worth" more than liquidation pricing - and weren't willing to accept that.

Most buyers pay the retail price because that is the only way they can get financing. So what is the vehicle really worth? Only what you can liquidate it for. Wholesale value, nothing more, nothing less. I'll guess that not 10 of those 97 will be sold in the next two weeks. And those that do sell will sell for a lot less than the median of the advertised prices you are seeing.

My vehicle is worth what I can sell it for. Liquidation assumes a forced sale. A forced sale does reduce the price - I agree with you. If I were trying to sell my truck (and I'm not), I would be selling it to obtain maximum value as I would want to replace it with something as good or better. I don't need to sell it, so am not willing to accept a liquidation price for it.