[highrisk]

I have a 1965 GTO that I am going to tear the front end out of this fall and rebuild the suspension. I noticed that most places list the 65 with manual transmission front springs as "W/AC and WO/AC". My car does not have AC. Is there anything gained or lost by putting the springs for an AC car into a non-AC car? I also noticed that by 67 the spring that was the AC spring in 65 is now the non-AC spring in 67. Is this because they discovered that the stiffer spring gave better handling or is it simply because the 67 gained some weight?

Any advice from anyone that has already tackled this subject would be appreciated.

Dale

[Ken K]

The factory AC springs are just a little bit taller than the non AC springs. they are still weak springs to begin with.

[Pontirag]

For a factory ride they are ok, stiffer springs have trade offs the engineers considered and rejected. I put AC springs in my le mans Convert and it raised the front end only about an inch but the old springs had 129ooo miles on them. I like a soft ride with a moderately firm antisway bar front and rear and a nice steering box

[highrisk]

Thanks for the info. I have already rebuilt the rear end and added a sway bar, stiffer springs out of a full size car (which raises the rear a little and gives that nice stance and firmer ride), poly bushings, and the frame reinforcing braces. These improvements dramatically improved the handling of the car.

When I do the front it will get a bigger sway bar, new poly bushings, all new tie rod ends, and probably the AC front coil springs. I think I will use the AC springs to raise the front a little and give me more ground clearance and room for 235/60/15 tires. I am also having the original power steering gear box rebuilt by powersteering.com in Springfield, MO. He rebuilds your original box with quick ratio internal parts which means you keep your turning radius but dramatically improves the response. He will also rebuild your original power steering pump. Between these improvements to the front, what I did to the rear, and better tires on all four corners, I figure the car will handle a lot better and not be such a handful on the curvy roads. The car is also going to get four wheel power disc brakes to replace the manual drum brakes.

If anyone knows a better spring for the front that will improve handling and ride without lowering the front and reducing ground clearance, I am completely open for suggestions.

Thanks again,
Dale

[Hurst65]

I installed the A/C front springs (Moog 5244) in mine a couple years ago. They didn't raise the front much at all ... probably about 1/4"..?? and now they've settled to the point that they're as low or lower than the originals. In fact last year I put two of those twist in spring stiffeners in each spring to bring it up to where I like it.

I suggest doing some more reasearch on this and maybe ordering some custom springs made to your desired height and stiffness.

If I had it to do over again I think I'd go a little stiffer on the springs (not much, just a little. I don't really like a super stiff ride.) and go with a slightly smaller front sway bar. I have a 1 1/4" now but, I think I'd go with a 1 1/8" or 1 1/16" front bar. A large sway bar has benefits but, it also transfers whatever bumps and jolts either tire sees to the other side. It can make the front end seem really stiff on rough roads. Sway bars are meant to be a tunning device.. I've learned that now.
Hope this helps,
Eric

[highrisk]

Hurst65,

I have seen some other threads where people say that a bigger front sway bar is not the answer. I was considering the 1 1/4 " front bar. It is good to hear from someone that used it and has experience with it. I can't believe there is not a manufactured spring out there that is a replacement for the stock that is a little stiffer.

Thanks for the valuable information,
Dale

[highrisk]

I found a web site that list all of the MOOG Coil Springs and their dimensions. http://classiccarsprings.com/coil-sp...fications.html
Basically here is what I found for front coils:

Part #, Inside Dia, Bar Dia, Install Height Inches, Load Rate Lbs, Spring Rate Lbs/in, Free Height, End Type

5234 3.63 .63 11 2025 297 17.81 TT
GTO WO/AC

5244 3.63 .64 11 2124 315 17.75 TT
GTO W/AC

5256 3.63 .64 11 2174 315 17.91 TT
Tempest Station Wagon W/AC

The Tempest Station Wagon WO/AC uses the same spring as the GTO WO/AC, go figure.

The spring for a GTO with AC is a stiffer spring but is actually shorter than the non AC GTO spring. The front spring for the Tempest Wagon W/AC is stiffer than the other two and is taller than the other two, but not by much. I doubt if you would notice the height difference. The main difference is it is rated for 150lbs more than the 5234 and 50lbs more than the 5244 while maintaining fairly close to the same ride height. I would imagine the GTO would ride a little higher than the Wagon since it weighs less.

So has anyone put the Tempest Wagon's front coil springs in a GTO and does it give a little stiffer ride and better handling without raising the front too much? It looks like to me that this spring could help with the handling of the GTO by stiffening it up a little.

Tell me what you all think,
Dale

[Pontirag]

i would look at the largest factory sway bar as the limit both front and rear. beyond that you need to get out the slide rule and justify the extream driving condition that will result. especially if the rest of your components are stock. I seen a comparison between several levels of performance sway bars and beyond the equivelent of what the factory offered performance began to decline.

are you sure the majority of your driving will be slalom like? It been long recommended by many members of my local car club to go conservative because they have become tired and disapointed with the extream driving experience they built into thier cars. Noisy, squeaky, freighttrain rides that are causeing the bondo and lead to pop out of the seams on thier million dollar paint jobs.

soft ride with factory springs
very good handleing with new steering box and up to 1 3/8th sway bars front and 1 inch rear or in convertibles 1 1/4 inch up fron and 7/8th in the rear

rubber bushings still remain your best bet but if ya gotta the go with poly bushings on the axle end of the rear trailing arms upper and lower

[highrisk]

Originally Posted by Pontirag

i would look at the largest factory sway bar as the limit both front and rear. beyond that you need to get out the slide rule and justify the extream driving condition that will result. especially if the rest of your components are stock. I seen a comparison between several levels of performance sway bars and beyond the equivelent of what the factory offered performance began to decline.

are you sure the majority of your driving will be slalom like? It been long recommended by many members of my local car club to go conservative because they have become tired and disapointed with the extream driving experience they built into thier cars. Noisy, squeaky, freighttrain rides that are causeing the bondo and lead to pop out of the seams on thier million dollar paint jobs.

soft ride with factory springs
very good handleing with new steering box and up to 1 3/8th sway bars front and 1 inch rear or in convertibles 1 1/4 inch up fron and 7/8th in the rear

rubber bushings still remain your best bet but if ya gotta the go with poly bushings on the axle end of the rear trailing arms upper and lower

I am just trying to make it a better driver. We have a lot of curvy country roads where I live and the old system takes a lot of effort and takes away from the joys of a Sunday drive. I know the front springs are worn because I get a lot of front end dip when the car is cornering, and I don't corner that hard, very conservative. That is why I am going with a quick ratio box and put a sway bar on the rear and all new bushings. The rear sway bar is the standard 7/8 and it and the new bushings drastically improved the handling. Right now the car has the factory front sway bar but all of the bushings are so worn out it makes the front end very loose. It might be that all I need is new bushings and springs and leave the factory sway bar up front. That is why I am asking people for their experiences of what they found out after upgrading their cars.

I do appreciate your comments of what your friends have experienced. I am at the point where I will probably keep the factory front sway bar and just replace the springs and bushings as well as upgrade the steering box. My biggest question still remains which springs.

Thanks again for the advice,
Dale

[Old Goat Racer]

Highrisk, have you made a decision yet? I'm looking for the same thing?

[highrisk]

Originally Posted by old goat racer

Highrisk, have you made a decision yet? I'm looking for the same thing?

I think I am going to go with stock springs with the 1 1/8" sway bar and some really good shocks, probably KYB. I like a softer ride (original springs) and I think the upgrades I did to the rear suspension (all new bushings and a sway bar) with the 1 1/8" sway bar upfront, better shocks, new bushings, all new tie rod ends and ball joints, and a rebuild of the steering box with quick ratio gears along with better and wider tires will make the car handle really good while keeping the ride civil.

I feel the 1 1/8" bar will improve handling without making the front end too ridged. The stock springs will keep the ride smooth while the better shocks will give the stability I want. At least I am hoping that will be the results.

Where in Southern IL. are you? I am just across the river from Southern IL.

Dale

[Jerry H.]

Moog 5272 is a good choice for your front springs.

[Old Goat Racer]

Sparta,

[highrisk]

Originally Posted by Jerry H.

Moog 5272 is a good choice for your front springs.

I had considered the 5256 which is the front springs of a Tempest Wagon with air which is a little stiffer than the GTO stock springs with air. What is the 5272 and what was it used in?

Thanks for the info,

Dale

[highrisk]

Originally Posted by old goat racer

Sparta,

I used to work in Sparta at the airport. What a small world.

Dale

[Jerry H.]

Originally Posted by highrisk

I had considered the 5256 which is the front springs of a Tempest Wagon with air which is a little stiffer than the GTO stock springs with air. What is the 5272 and what was it used in?

Thanks for the info,

Dale

[/I]

I don't really know of the application, but here is a pic of them installed on my 65

[Old Goat Racer]

Nice car Jerry. What size are the front tires?

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Hurst65

I installed the A/C front springs (Moog 5244) in mine a couple years ago. They didn't raise the front much at all ... probably about 1/4"..?? and now they've settled to the point that they're as low or lower than the originals. In fact last year I put two of those twist in spring stiffeners in each spring to bring it up to where I like it.

I suggest doing some more reasearch on this and maybe ordering some custom springs made to your desired height and stiffness.

If I had it to do over again I think I'd go a little stiffer on the springs (not much, just a little. I don't really like a super stiff ride.) and go with a slightly smaller front sway bar. I have a 1 1/4" now but, I think I'd go with a 1 1/8" or 1 1/16" front bar. A large sway bar has benefits but, it also transfers whatever bumps and jolts either tire sees to the other side. It can make the front end seem really stiff on rough roads. Sway bars are meant to be a tunning device.. I've learned that now.
Hope this helps,
Eric

First, I can't tell you how many people complain about the Moog springs, the quality control stinks, and I have no idea where the heck they got those 'factory blue prints', because they are so far off, I think I could just LOOK at a spring and do better. Also, over the years they consolidated many of the applications, not to mention 'service replacement' specs are different. If you want to 'take a shot at it' and order something for another model or whatever, you're gambling, plain and simple.

True comment on the sway bar too, though you can overcome certain characteristics by 'going big'. In general, a 1.25 bar up front is a good choice.

highrisk - You plan on doing a 4 wheel drum to a 4 wheel disc upgrade? That will actually change your spring choice you know, depending on how you do the conversion. Tall spindles are the usual route, which done correctly requires aftermarket upper control arms, also effecting your choice of parts.

Front and rear springs need to be a matched set in order to get proper, balanced suspension. That includes ride height as well. In other words, you will most likely be chacing your tail once you get the front done, and suggest you plan on buying rear springs at the same time.

Alignment makes a big difference too on how the car 'feels' or 'road manners'. The original alignment specs are NOT the way to go these days, fyi, and you will feel a considerable improvement by using 'newer' specs.

I think in your case you would be best off choosing a 'package', like one that's offered by a suspension place that specializes in doing so. You can talk to others who have the package and in a lot of cases even go for a ride or even drive one with a particular package. That will take the least amount of homework and guesswork out of the upgrade.

I personally like Global West products, though there are others, and have heard Hotchkis has improved their' line. (Darn! I had both names in the same sentence!).

Ken's done some homework in this department, to put it mildly, was at one time the cutting edge of the a-body handling improvement arena, and believe the original testing was even done on a '65. I was on board early with the Strong-Arm setups, and watched it grow into a massive industry. Ken, any words of wisdom here?

.

[Jerry H.]

Originally Posted by old goat racer

Nice car Jerry. What size are the front tires?

5.60x15 Pro Tracs