[J.C.you]

Originally Posted by 6x400gmc

My dad raced late models on dirt in North Louisiana from the mid 80's up through the early 90's when we moved to Georgia. Then it was street class with a whole new car.



First two pics are of the came car. Powered by a 400 with Ram Air IV heads, SD Rods, zero decked, solid roller cam, Warrior intake and an alky 1150 Dominator. had an ST-300 transmission with a quick change. Talking him just now his highest gear ratio ranged between a 5.86 and a 6.70:1. He said it loved to turn 7000.

The third picture is of a 1978 Pontiac Phoenix that I actually had a hand in building from the ground up. The dirt track in Savannah was a 5/8's tri-oval (a Nascar track at the time!) and was too long for the automatic. Engine size was limited to what you could get in the car factory, so out came the 400 and in it's place went a junkyard 350 that was bought literally STUCK with rust, and a 4-speed. Can't remember if it was a Muncie or a ST-10. I don't remember the engine combination either.

He did really well with both cars against Chevy's, Fords and Mopars and has a wall full of trophies to prove it.

Pontiac's can run. I was there to see it all from about 1988 to 1995.

Britt

Hi, Britt....I wish he would have reconsidered and drove my modified. We would have made the chebby and ferd boys cry a river. How is his knee doing?

[6x400gmc]

Originally Posted by J.C.you

Hi, Britt....I wish he would have reconsidered and drove my modified. We would have made the chebby and ferd boys cry a river. How is his knee doing?

It's pretty stiff and the cold ain't helping any. What's this about the modified? Hadn't heard this story. (yet)

Britt

[J.C.you]

Originally Posted by 6x400gmc

It's pretty stiff and the cold ain't helping any. What's this about the modified? Hadn't heard this story. (yet)

Britt

It was right after he decided to quit running his sport mod and was building his bird streeter. I offered the drivers seat and he stated something of the effect of being burned out chasing the local circuit for many years. I ended up getting a young guy with no experience in a modified. The driver was spooked of the power difference the old poncho made vs the little 302 two barrel he was accustomed to running. It took him a season to get the car to work in the corners while applying the power on hand.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by mike leech

you people are crazy. How many pontiacs are there in dirt racing???

Highly modified??? Don't get me wrong I think its cool. But run a special ph# in a circle track rag with a add and see how many calls you get.....I bet theres no need for a second line....or a sticky note.

Someone has to break the mold first and win some races for interest to be generated. Beat a chevy ford or a chrysler with a Pontiac and they come wandering over to see WTF is under the hood.

I had my cars protested over and over by sore losers claiming I was cheating, every time the car was found legal. Chevy guys always think your cheating when you beat them, cause chevy is all they know. If it's not a chevy, it can't be fast.

Circle track racers are follow the leader types and if you painted your wheels purple and won a feature and told someone the purple wheels made you fast, next week there would be half the cars in the pits with purple wheels. Of course the first guy with a quick Pontiac car is going to spend some cash to win with it, once it's consistent people will follow the leader.

Just like the first Pontiac in the 6s and now one in the 5s. Whoever thought in the brand X camp ever thought a 5,000 RPM rod chuckin Pontiac could run a 5 second quarter, 10 years ago? Someone did, and they proved it. It wasn't easy or cheap, but they made it. The development process always filters down to the guys lower on the totem pole.

My Father RIP, had a great saying, "Can't never got a damn thing done," and it's always stuck with me. If you believe it can't be done, you're already defeated by your own doubts.

[Jack Gifford]

To see engines (of every imaginable size/description) really being squeezed for power, look into landspeed racing examples; especially the record-holders.

[roadrage david]

Originally Posted by cgeise

I know we all have our preferred types of racing and hobbies -- but really?? Division dag races can have 500 to 600 cars -- A national event the same -- the local circle race may attract what -- 50 or 75 cars, and the road race crowd the same or less -- so where should the engine development be biased to ???

cgeise to ad some more,. We have been working together with Fia GT racing. Those races are not as Tom sais 20 min races...(altho there are 20 min races for sure) the averich race wil last 1 to 2 iven 6 hours . Not to mention the 12 hours and le mans type of racing in varius fields of road racing ranging from GT2 /3 /1.

We have been helping a couple of teams on a smal scale with there engine durabilety. Doing oil analising test.
We found out that 35000 $ LS7 engines from reputable engine builders were lasting for 35 hours!. using Mobile one syntetic racing oil.
Afther we put them on Brad Penn racing oil they got 5 to 7 hours more out of there engines. you may say thats miner, it is. But when your using 5 to 7 engines a year thats a 35000$ saving.
At the same time the oil analistic reports told us the piston scirts of the pistons where to short!!!!.
Diferend parts where used and longlivety whent up a couple more hours!!!!.. These oil analistic test iven tel wich track they raced in Europe!!. due to the stuf they find in the oil.
Also belive me that there are more Ford chevy mopar racing engines used OUTSIDE the USA then in the USA itself when it comes douwn to Road racing tracktor pulling ecetera. Your new Corvettes are a product of Euro Field testing ecspecialy Le mans and GT Racing overhere!!!!!!! As the Camaro is as wel AND the Dodge Viper... As it is drag racing is PRIMARLY a USA thing.

Sure we have Drag scenes over here but they are minute compeared to the Roadracing scene..
Now sins there is a overload of feedback from europe and the USA itself to engine and part manufactures. its obvius where we as a pontiac comunity lack of.
Wich is In parts and engine divelopmend. There is NON other then Drag racing divelopmend in pontiac land... Altho Rogers Bolliger,s Budler Engines are very stoout and strong a blind man can see that the 4.25 stroke 496ci engine with a victoor manifold is NOT a Road race engine pure sang.. sure Budler as Jim Lehart cvms are building engines for other racing scenes. But they STILL have to work with wat is availeble and with the little feed back they get.
The more the Pontiac engine is used in Dirt track road racing ecetera. The more we need diferend divelop parts that wil hold up in the diferend racing scenes. and the varius cross over parts wil help boost the Pontiac engine building and strenght and durabilety from there on..

[J.C.you]

Originally Posted by roadrage david

cgeise to ad some more,. We have been working together with Fia GT racing. Those races are not as Tom sais 20 min races...(altho there are 20 min races for sure) the averich race wil last 1 to 2 iven 6 hours . Not to mention the 12 hours and le mans type of racing in varius fields of road racing ranging from GT2 /3 /1.

We have been helping a couple of teams on a smal scale with there engine durabilety. Doing oil analising test.
We found out that 35000 $ LS7 engines from reputable engine builders were lasting for 35 hours!. using Mobile one syntetic racing oil.
Afther we put them on Brad Penn racing oil they got 5 to 7 hours more out of there engines. you may say thats miner, it is. But when your using 5 to 7 engines a year thats a 35000$ saving.
At the same time the oil analistic reports told us the piston scirts of the pistons where to short!!!!.
Diferend parts where used and longlivety whent up a couple more hours!!!!.. These oil analistic test iven tel wich track they raced in Europe!!. due to the stuf they find in the oil.
Also belive me that there are more Ford chevy mopar racing engines used OUTSIDE the USA then in the USA itself when it comes douwn to Road racing tracktor pulling ecetera. Your new Corvettes are a product of Euro Field testing ecspecialy Le mans and GT Racing overhere!!!!!!! As the Camaro is as wel AND the Dodge Viper... As it is drag racing is PRIMARLY a USA thing.

Sure we have Drag scenes over here but they are minute compeared to the Roadracing scene..
Now sins there is a overload of feedback from europe and the USA itself to engine and part manufactures. its obvius where we as a pontiac comunity lack of.
Wich is In parts and engine divelopmend. There is NON other then Drag racing divelopmend in pontiac land... Altho Rogers Bolliger,s Budler Engines are very stoout and strong a blind man can see that the 4.25 stroke 496ci engine with a victoor manifold is NOT a Road race engine pure sang.. sure Budler as Jim Lehart cvms are building engines for other racing scenes. But they STILL have to work with wat is availeble and with the little feed back they get.
The more the Pontiac engine is used in Dirt track road racing ecetera. The more we need diferend divelop parts that wil hold up in the diferend racing scenes. and the varius cross over parts wil help boost the Pontiac engine building and strenght and durabilety from there on..

Well stated, David.

[JD311]

I looked up the LSX iron block, says 225 pds.

[cosgrove]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Someone has to break the mold first and win some races for interest to be generated. Beat a chevy ford or a chrysler with a Pontiac and they come wandering over to see WTF is under the hood.

I had my cars protested over and over by sore losers claiming I was cheating, every time the car was found legal. Chevy guys always think your cheating when you beat them, cause chevy is all they know. If it's not a chevy, it can't be fast.

Circle track racers are follow the leader types and if you painted your wheels purple and won a feature and told someone the purple wheels made you fast, next week there would be half the cars in the pits with purple wheels. Of course the first guy with a quick Pontiac car is going to spend some cash to win with it, once it's consistent people will follow the leader.

Just like the first Pontiac in the 6s and now one in the 5s. Whoever thought in the brand X camp ever thought a 5,000 RPM rod chuckin Pontiac could run a 5 second quarter, 10 years ago? Someone did, and they proved it. It wasn't easy or cheap, but they made it. The development process always filters down to the guys lower on the totem pole.

My Father RIP, had a great saying, "Can't never got a damn thing done," and it's always stuck with me. If you believe it can't be done, you're already defeated by your own doubts.

Purple wheels, LOL. I won many dirt track championships and dozens of races with Pontiac engines in the 80's and 90's. Yes, they will complain about it being unfair. Yes they will be curious about what is beating them. But let's get real here. They will NOT build a Pontiac engine and put it in their car. They didn't then, and no way in hell will they do it now. If you are talking about any real percentage of converts, then it would have to be all after market parts. Even if you could come up with a platform that could compete both financially and on the track, very few would take the leap. Honestly, if circle track and road racers had ran more Pontiacs, after market parts would be all that was left by now.

[Chris Uratchko]

Originally Posted by roadrage david

We found out that 35000 $ LS7 engines from reputable engine builders were lasting for 35 hours!. using Mobile one syntetic racing oil.
Afther we put them on Brad Penn racing oil they got 5 to 7 hours more out of there engines.

Gotta call BS on that.

There are very, very high dollar racing teams and corporations who spend millions on racing engine development, that would also call BS on that. Fact.

[dci]

I think the real up and coming market for traditional Pontiac engine will be Autocross racing. The Smokey and the Bandit movie done wonders for the Trans Am and as more and more 30-50 year olds can afford it. I think we will see a rise in demand for 650-800 HP Pontiac bullets for this style of racing, and of course that will spill over into road racing and drag racing too. In my opinion and I could be wrong. I think we are at the absolute best time in history to be into Pontiac's. We have more products than ever even form the 60's and 70's era. All we need to do now is make sure and educate these guy's at the track and car cruises. The more people that come back to Pontiac engines the better it will get for everyone involved.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by cosgrove

Purple wheels, LOL. I won many dirt track championships and dozens of races with Pontiac engines in the 80's and 90's. Yes, they will complain about it being unfair. Yes they will be curious about what is beating them. But let's get real here. They will NOT build a Pontiac engine and put it in their car. They didn't then, and no way in hell will they do it now. If you are talking about any real percentage of converts, then it would have to be all after market parts. Even if you could come up with a platform that could compete both financially and on the track, very few would take the leap. Honestly, if circle track and road racers had ran more Pontiacs, after market parts would be all that was left by now.

Roll back the clock a few years ago when chrysler engines in sprint cars started dusting the chevys. There were more than a few converts to chrysler power. TSR was running chrysler power in his USAC cars as was well as Kasey Kahne's team ran chrysler engines.

It happens with a better powerplant not everyone will convert, some will as has already been proven with chryslers. You think it was cheap to convert over sprint cars teams from chevy to chrysler? If you wanted to be fast, you spent the money to do it. The thing is they do it with sponsor money, not many Pontiac people look for big dollar sponsorship money, they know their pockets aren't deep enough, then they throw in the towel, quit, give up.

Chrysler quit development on the sprint car engines as well as pulled out of NASCAR, and chevy caught up, plus the GM LS engine was starting to see use in sprint cars. Nothing from a SBC fits a LS engine so you might as well be adapting to a Pontiac engine as far as changeover parts. If you can produce more HP in a reliable package teams will switch, it's already been proven. Learn from recent history. Beat them at their own game and if they want to be competitive, they'll have to invest money somewhere to go faster.

Is that real enough for you?

"Can't, never got a damn thing done."

[roadrage david]

Criss Uratchko Racing Engines try this BS link for ones http://www.americanmuscle.nl/ make sure you klick on oil analis and sponser then scroll douwn. to see the varius teams and the Corvette and mosler teams we sponserd and tested.
Then chek this link http://www.mad-and-daring.nl/ the first car you see the Omega v8 star is the car we tested and used Brad Penn oil on. Every corvette and Omega V8 star was running these oils. Now here comes the thing. IVENTHO Europe is at the frond with racing. There IS a strategic brake on divelopmend. cars should not go TO fast every season!!. The new model will cost another 200.000 $$ and it wil only go 1 ore 2 tents a sec faster. being it Ferrari laborginni Porshe ore mercedes ore corvette.This is diliberetly done to make sure mecanics and the racing scene spends and makes money!!!. ofthen high millionair team owners have NO clue wat is posible. And team manegers as the mecanics make there livelyhood with there job.
HENSh you need HOMOLOGATION to enter with racing cars. it would be very EZ to buy a Factory Fife https://www.factoryfive.com/kits/gtm-supercar/ GTM car and bitch slap the crap out of the 200.000/500.000$$ cars!!.
I told my frind and team owner from Mad and daring racing as wel as the V8 racing team. about the larger leap forward they could make . Funny thing was that he was open for it and let me use the varius parts and ideas for the cars. YET non of the the parts and ideas where alouwed on ONE particulair car..... It was obvius that his team workt against me. and to show you at wat level i was into here are some pictures of the Pratt and miller >>>LE MANS Racing corvette<< they where racing with.

Now those cars have Kaytek engines wich wil cost 50.000$$. yet i had the same engine made by Golen engines for 27.000$$. the engine builders overhere where NOT happy as a Rebuild SWAP!! engine. would cost the same while Golen would rebuild it to our specs for 15000$$.. Those engines are being maneged bij MOTEC computer systems. and are working with PASSWORDS. These guys REFUSED to use the GOLEN Engine with there Motec Computer systems!!. because if they would they would loose lots of money and there grip on the matter.. last but not LEAST These engines are MADE to brake douwn afther 35 hours!!!!. And we got 7 hours and 4 more hours on oil and longer piston skirts alone out of them... There is a nearly BILLION$$ industry in road racing alone in Europe . And altho research and divelopmend is very high. They wil NOT let the Genie out of the Bottle. just a little bit at the time...

[roadrage david]

Here are some more pictures... Enigne is the LS7 i orderd from Golen engines.

[roadrage david]

Originally Posted by dci

I think the real up and coming market for traditional Pontiac engine will be Autocross racing. The Smokey and the Bandit movie done wonders for the Trans Am and as more and more 30-50 year olds can afford it. I think we will see a rise in demand for 650-800 HP Pontiac bullets for this style of racing, and of course that will spill over into road racing and drag racing too. In my opinion and I could be wrong. I think we are at the absolute best time in history to be into Pontiac's. We have more products than ever even form the 60's and 70's era. All we need to do now is make sure and educate these guy's at the track and car cruises. The more people that come back to Pontiac engines the better it will get for everyone involved.

im sorry Don american Pro-Toring Auto cross racing, from where we come from is wel a bit gay if you ask me. those are 1 min tracks and thats it.. high $$ build cars wich wil do fine with the parts we have today. been there done that.

[ho428]

David, Autocross and Pro Tour is still a huge market here. People will spend a hundred thousand dollars building a car with top of the line parts just to go around orange cones and drive the Hot Rod Power Tour.
I agree it's a bit silly, but those guys have the money to spend and looking at shows like SEMA it shows no sign of slowing down.
Part of that is spilling over into Road Racing now when they realize they can't unleash the cars potential on the street, most will only do track days but a few get the bug and gut it for full race or build a second race only car.

I get messages and emails weekly asking what it takes to run our races or track days. Last year we had a 71 Trans Am join us, after running DE sessions all day and watching us race he realized his car, while a top notch build, was not a race car, he's now building a second T/A for race only.

[roadrage david]

ho428 i know!! BUT those cars need NO new divelopt engine parts!!.
here was my pro-touring G-Mashine car befor we took it apart and whent for the necst level
http://youtu.be/7Dp0PngisVI
http://youtu.be/zn3K6d_e7bw
http://youtu.be/NFaA51l1HmE
http://youtu.be/LkLQXSygmQM

[dci]

It's the gateway drug my friend. It's just a teaser to get you hooked. It apparently worked on you since you admittedly started there and are moving up now LOL. Alcoholics didn't start out as alcoholics, it happened to them a little bit at a time.

[ho428]

We get offered a free entry if we get 4 new guys to run at least one event.
Basically giving them a hit off the crack pipe, 1 in 4 will get hooked.

We get about 2 to 2-1/2 hours of track time per event, that's a lot of seat time. It's easy to get addicted to it.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by JD311

I looked up the LSX iron block, says 225 pds.

Thats @40 lbs heavier than a 73 455 bare block(with caps/bolts) I weighed a yr or so ago. Obviously aluminum variants cut the weight considerably... So..how much power is lost running aluminum vs iron?