[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by slowbird

So does the heads, intake, carb and exhaust have an effect on lsa? If i build an engine with iron d-ports and stock intake with stock exhaust will the lsa requirements be the same as an e-heads thats ported flow 340cfm running a single plain intake with free flow exhaust?
Cams are only 1 piece out of many that effect how a car works, it isnt the end all be all piece.

No, not at all.... now you are being silly

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Who needs a radio?? The purr of the engine should be music to your ears!

The cars that don't have the "Burger King drive through" idle.... need a radio.

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

Many of the Pontiac crowd have very tight budget limits.
Many greatly care about smooth idle, gas mileage etc.
Don't really care about running 3 or 4 tenths faster.
Many are NOT driven to experiment and test, vastly prefer the cookie cutter parts.

A similar Pontiac could be built to run the same as the 509 example, it would likely have a similar LSA. Possibly a little tighter.

I totally agree with that. That's not what this thread is talking about though. This started about a 455 SD build that was expected to have mild manners and produce at least 450 hp.

No one has proven to me that there's better way to build a mild acting Pontiac 455 that makes very good power while running iron heads, intake, manifolds, etc. The best PROVEN combos run a cam with healthy duration and wider LSA to keep the idle under control. There's numerous 450-500 hp 455's out there this way.

If someone builds the same engine with a 108 cam that has the same type of idle and vacuum, while being hamstrung with restrictive heads (even when ported, relative to cu in), iron dual plane intake, and RA manifolds I'll listen.

Until then, this is all opinion.

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

Many of the Pontiac crowd have very tight budget limits.
Many greatly care about smooth idle, gas mileage etc.
Don't really care about running 3 or 4 tenths faster.
Many are NOT driven to experiment and test, vastly prefer the cookie cutter parts

Some want a mild acting, stock appearing engine that is capable of producing 11 and low 12 sec timeslips. There are proven combos out there doing exactly that with those cookie cutter parts.

[Formulajones]

On a lighter note, my father runs a 571 Pontiac on the street, tight LSA solid roller, pump gas, PS and PDB and a stereo. Over 700HP and almost 800 ft lbs. and he's not afraid to drive it anywhere and enjoys the hell out of it. He's already pushed past mandatory retirement but the way some of you guys are talking it sounds like you're already dusting a seat in a retirement home LOL

Gotta live a little. Here's an idle clip. It idles down to 800 in gear, and will idle like that all day in traffic, doesn't overheat and cruises fine, still has everything GM built it with and functions as such (other than a glass hood). If you wouldn't enjoy driving something like this, you need to check your pulse.

He bought this car brand new and still having fun with it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF1y0F-tJ3w

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

Many of the Pontiac crowd have very tight budget limits.
Many greatly care about smooth idle, gas mileage etc.
Don't really care about running 3 or 4 tenths faster.
Many are NOT driven to experiment and test, vastly prefer the cookie cutter parts.
.

Very good point. But if a build is on a tight budget, I don't understand why would someone want to spend an additional thousand dollars to run a hydraulic roller camshaft.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by 67GTO4SPEED

I totally agree with that. That's not what this thread is talking about though. This started about a 455 SD build that was expected to have mild manners and produce at least 450 hp.

No one has proven to me that there's better way to build a mild acting Pontiac 455 that makes very good power while running iron heads, intake, manifolds, etc. The best PROVEN combos run a cam with healthy duration and wider LSA to keep the idle under control. There's numerous 450-500 hp 455's out there this way.

If someone builds the same engine with a 108 cam that has the same type of idle and vacuum, while being hamstrung with restrictive heads (even when ported, relative to cu in), iron dual plane intake, and RA manifolds I'll listen.

Until then, this is all opinion.
.

Interesting , I wonder if the engine had ported aluminum heads, a bit more compression and headers if the same cam with "healthy duration and wider LSA" would be the right choice.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by blykins

Not to steal from cliffs thunder and hijack his thread anymore than we already have, but I'd be interested in that. Preferably roller cams so I don't have to do the break in dance 2-3 times...

I've got 8 engines to build right now, so I don't know how soon I could get on it, but it's something I'm interested in.

Let me know when you're ready. I have a couple of piles full of cams you are welcome to test. We've already tried them but you are welcome to wear yourself out.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by 67GTO4SPEED

This leads me to ask the question of where the videos are for these cars that have all this extra power with tighter LSA cams with the same mild characteristics? .

I wasn't able to figure out how to link the videos, but if you check YouTube "pkmusclemotors" there are two "in car" videos of my brother's 70 Firebird. In the video of him racing the GTO he is using a pretty stout solid roller cam ground on a 108 LSA and the video of him running a 10.50 is the same set up but the cam is ground on a 106.
Also if you click on the link to my business Facebook page and scroll back to 2013 there are back to back videos of my 80 Trans Am idling and my 70 RAIV TA. The 70 has a factory 041 cam with exhaust manifolds and the 80 has a solid roller ground on a 108. Both cams idle around a thousand rpm and operate the power brakes. The 70 runs 12's with a 3.70 gear shifting around 6500 rpm and the 80 runs mid tens with 3.42 gears shifting around 6000 rpm.

I'm not sure how these compare to the "mild characteristics " you are inquiring about... but they are examples of powerful street cars with tight LSA cams and a stock Ram Air IV cam.

[blykins]

Just a couple of closing remarks....mainly to Mr. 67GTO4SPEED

1. I've never been fixated on a 108 LSA. Not sure where that came from.

2. If you think that the LSA is the only variable to drive vacuum, idle characteristics, or horsepower, then you need to read up a little more on camshafts.

3. There are too many variables to make general statements. Again, that's the only thing that I've been preaching through this entire thread. The trend has been, "This cam was horrible, didn't have any power, no idle vacuum, spark knocked, blew the alternator off, and made my tire pressure low. I put in a 112-114 LSA cam and I received a letter from President Obama congratulating me on such a wonderful engine." Stevie Wonder could see why those two camshafts that Cliff mentioned were so far apart.

4. My point is, there are hundreds and hundreds of lobes available from Comp Cams, Bullet, Lunati, Crane, etc. There are combinations of those lobes, durations, LSA, ICL, etc. that can come together in one camshaft that can have power, vacuum, and a smooth idle if that's what you desire.

5. If someone wants to come up with a specific scenario, so that we can look at all the specs, run the math, etc., then that's perfectly fine and I would be interested in sitting down and looking at that. However, this back and forth over general statements, apples to watermelons comparisons, and emotional arguments because that's the way we've done it here for years.....I'm not in the least bit interested in that and there's nothing to be profited from it.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

I wasn't able to figure out how to link the videos, but if you check YouTube "pkmusclemotors" there are two in car videos of my brother's 70 Firebird. In the video of him racing the GTO he is using a pretty stout solid roller cam ground on a 108 LSA and the video of him running a 10.50 is the same set up but the cam is ground on a 106.
Also if you click on the link to my business Facebook page and scroll back to 2013 there are back to back videos of my 80 Trans Am idling and my 70 RAIV TA. The 70 has a factory 041 cam with exhaust manifolds and the 80 has a solid roller ground on a 108. Both cams idle around a thousand rpm and operate the power brakes. The 70 runs 12's with a 3.70 gear shifting around 6500 rpm and the 80 runs mid tens with 3.42 gears shifting around 6000 rpm.

I'm not sure how these compare to the "mild characteristics " you are inquiring about... but they are examples of powerful street cars with tight LSA cams and a stock Ram Air IV cam.

A guy on Speedtalk built a 454 Chevy for a towing application. Lower duration of course for torque, but it was on either a 106 LSA or a 108....can't remember exactly. Obviously, had enough vacuum to run the power brakes and if it was a smaller duration, probably idled like a stocker.

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Interesting , I wonder if the engine had ported aluminum heads, a bit more compression and headers if the same cam with "healthy duration and wider LSA" would be the right choice.

I don't know. As much as people try to generalize that brand doesn't matter and have the "engines are just an air pump" mentality, the 455 Pontiac really is an odd beast. We are talking an engine with BBC cu in, but the bore of a 400 SBC and a pretty long 4.21 - 4.25 stroke. I had my heads professionally ported, but they still only have 170cc runners and flow what a pretty basic 215 cc 23 degree SBC head does. I have seen tons of SBC and BBC running cams with pretty much the identical duration, lift, and LSA's that behave totally different than they do in Pontiac 455 - 473's. A friend of my had grind almost identical to an 041 that made power up to 6500 RPM in a SBC. We know that's not the case in our engines.

Cliff had said in his testing he's seen cams that throw all the power at you down low and they out of steam by 5000. The argument by guys advocating the tighter LSA's is that they improve torque. My question is if that is really necessary with these things? Do the wide LSA cams run so good because they allow you to go up in duration and help the upper end breathing of an engine that kinda already breathing through a straw relative to the flow numbers vs cu in? Is the loss of torque offset by the improved upper end power by being able to run more duration and offset that the negative affects on drivability by widening the LSA?

These are questions that seem to be answered by Cliff, SD, and Jim Hand's testing. I would love to see more tests tough. At the end of the day, I think we all interested in finding a way to make more power within the parameters of their set-up.

For me, there's nothing cooler than than a car that looks stock, sounds close to stock, and runs like hell. I welcome any all input on that, but I'm not breaking out my wallet on theories. I have proven combos that I will use, unless proven there is a better option.

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by blykins

4. My point is, there are hundreds and hundreds of lobes available from Comp Cams, Bullet, Lunati, Crane, etc. There are combinations of those lobes, durations, LSA, ICL, etc. that can come together in one camshaft that can have power, vacuum, and a smooth idle if that's what you desire.

Fair enough, but until somebody figures what that combination is, my money is going to ones that have been proven they will achieve what I want. Fair enough?

[blykins]

Originally Posted by 67GTO4SPEED

Fair enough, but until somebody figures what that combination is, my money is going to ones that have been proven they will achieve what I want. Fair enough?

Who says that someone hasn't? You certainly have a fair point, but I wouldn't have been arguing all this time if I wasn't convinced that I (or Paul, or anyone else) could come up with a custom cam that would put a checkmark in all the appropriate boxes.

That's why I even offered to have a camshaft ground and sent out on my dime, if someone wanted to try it. I'm not going to throw money down the drain unless I'm confident of myself.

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by blykins;5552694.

If you think that the LSA is the only variable to drive vacuum, idle characteristics, or horsepower, then you need to read up a little more on camshafts.

One other thing on this - a few times now you've made the comment to me to read up or educate myself about camshafts. That's exactly what I'm doing. In fact, I'll guarantee you I've spent more hours researching what it takes to make a stock appearing 462 cu in Pontiac run fast and sound nearly stock. Ford 428's or whatever don't concern me. You're here rebuking what Pontiac builders are saying, while talking about your 455 bun in the oven. These guys have been building Pontiacs for decades, while your website says "We have added Pontiac to the list of engines that we have found a fondness for..."

Forgive me if I wait until I see something besides forum posts from you before I jump on board. With that said, I am open minded. Educate away, but I'm going to have to see it with actual engines, not forum posts and theory.

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by blykins

Who says that someone hasn't? You certainly have a fair point, but I wouldn't have been arguing all this time if I wasn't convinced that I (or Paul, or anyone else) could come up with a custom cam that would put a checkmark in all the appropriate boxes.

That's why I even offered to have a camshaft ground and sent out on my dime, if someone wanted to try it. I'm not going to throw money down the drain unless I'm confident of myself.

I'll make you deal then. If you can prove to me you can come up with a camshaft that will out perform the OF cam I'm planning on buying in an engine similar to mine, I'll buy one from you.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by 67GTO4SPEED

One other thing on this - a few times now you've made the comment to me to read up or educate myself about camshafts. That's exactly what I'm doing. In fact, I'll guarantee you I've spent more hours researching what it takes to make a stock appearing 462 cu in Pontiac run fast and sound nearly stock. Ford 428's or whatever don't concern me. You're here rebuking what Pontiac builders are saying, while talking about your 455 bun in the oven. These guys have been building Pontiacs for decades, while your website says "We have added Pontiac to the list of engines that we have found a fondness for..."

Forgive me if I wait until I see something besides forum posts from you before I jump on board. With that said, I am open minded. Educate away, but I'm going to have to see it with actual engines, not forum posts and theory.

Then read Paul K's posts. I understand that I'm the new guy here and it's going to take some time to earn respect, but Paul and several other guys on here have done exactly what you want to do. It's not rocket science.

BTW, I specialize in Fords, and I suppose that they are my niche and bring in the most income, but that doesn't mean that I don't have experience with other brands, including Pontiacs. I only added that line to my website just because I need a change in scenery. When you screw together (50) all-aluminum 482 FE's in a row, it gets a little boring.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by 67GTO4SPEED

I'll make you deal then. If you can prove to me you can come up with a camshaft that will out perform the OF cam I'm planning on buying in an engine similar to mine, I'll buy one from you.

How about I just send you one? If you like it, you pay me. If not, it's on the house.

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by blykins

Then read Paul K's posts. I understand that I'm the new guy here and it's going to take some time to earn respect, but Paul and several other guys on here have done exactly what you want to do. It's not rocket science.

BTW, I specialize in Fords, and I suppose that they are my niche and bring in the most income, but that doesn't mean that I don't have experience with other brands, including Pontiacs. I only added that line to my website just because I need a change in scenery. When you screw together (50) all-aluminum 482 FE's in a row, it gets a little boring.

Well yeah, Fords are boring anyway! 😜😉

Originally Posted by blykins

How about I just send you one? If you like it, you pay me. If not, it's on the house.

I really appreciate the offer, but my car is quite a bit away from being finished. (It is in paint jail at the moment). It would sit on a stand for a while if I got it. I'd truly rather see it go to someone who can do a fair and honest comparison to a cam that is known to be a good cam for these things. I'd have no problem paying for it if it did outperform them.

[blykins]

I must say, I see so many different engines that it's easy to me to pass judgment on different aspects of each one.

I know that lots of guys find the FE Ford pretty sexy and most guys (even GM guys) will drool at the thought of a 427 side oiler. However, I'd like to see if I could fit my hands around the neck of the engineer that decided it was a good idea to put the intake manifold gaskets submerged in oil and that the pushrods needed to be routed through it as well. I've made almost 725 hp from a factory Tunnel Port headed engine though....with a solid flat tappet that everyone seems to hate here....LOL

Absolutely not a Chevy fan. LOL

As far as the cam goes, my offer stands. Your project may be on hold, but a cam will store just fine in the box. If you're interested, post or PM me every single engine/car/drivetrain spec that you can think of and we'll discuss.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by blykins

How about I just send you one? If you like it, you pay me. If not, it's on the house.

I'll take you up on that offer. I know a good deal when I see one!