[66sprint6]

What surprises me is that there is no definitive out of the box solution that you can bolt on and go. Hence the reason for these threads that keep popping up from time to time. At least a cost effective one.
It seems like the whole thing is easier if you start with the good (but more expensive) spindles and steering arms to mitigate the bump steer.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by 66sprint6

What surprises me is that there is no definitive out of the box solution that you can bolt on and go. Hence the reason for these threads that keep popping up from time to time. At least a cost effective one.
It seems like the whole thing is easier if you start with the good (but more expensive) spindles and steering arms to mitigate the bump steer.

Yes. But to correct your statement, the best solution is actually cost effective, since you don't have to later go back and swap the stuff out a second or third time because you are trying to correct other issues.

Having options along the way is good when you just plain don't have the money to do it right the first time, so in a way, they are good, just to a point tho. It also creates competition in the market place, lowering overall costs.

Speedtech has a one-stop off the shelf solution, but some prefer to piece other vendors' stuff together, out of preference, or due to convenience.

Different vendors have different approaches too, and everyone thinks their' way is 'right'. So certain groups, depending on what they accept to believe, shuffle over to whichever side of the fence.

There's some very basic concepts that once you know, you can make choices based on technology, and not be swayed that one is better than the other. For example, an A body rear lower control arm is a straight piece with pivot points on each end. That's kind of hard to have one that is better than another, they are all pretty much the same. So when people say "get this one, it's the best", you can take it with a grain of salt.

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[JLMounce]

Yeah, the problem is not really that there isn't a one stop solution, but the fact that a single solution doesn't work for everybody. A lot of the stuff out there works really well on track, but will suck to live with on a daily basis.

As hwystr455 points out, doing it all at the same time is the most cost beneficial, but to do that, you have to know ahead of time what you're going to be doing with the car. The parts you buy and install for a street car are going to necessarily be different than the parts you buy and install for a track car.

Having a plan ahead of time is the best way to save money on this stuff. I also recommend talking to experts that can get into the weeds on the why and how. That helps you avoid common problems that tend to crop up if you're piecing stuff together.

[HWYSTR455]

True on a lot of that, though when it comes to control arms, basically, that stuff will work on street or track. It's the springs/spring rates and shocks/shock settings where you should have a general idea of where the car will spend most of it's time. Even so, that would be a 'compromise' choice, like if you choose something that's more of a street spring rate, your track performance will suffer some.

Definitely have a plan ahead of time.

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[rohrt]

This may be of interest to some, I put together a list of the most common providers of A-arms, their cost and if the had geometry changes to them. I don't have it in front of me, but basically the prices were mostly within $300 of each other if you were going to buy both upper and lower together. Some Arms have no geometry changes, some had only geometry changes to the upper for more caster and a few few had both upper and lower geometry changes so the added caster would keep the wheel centered in the wheel well.

[HWYSTR455]

I'm interested, yeah! Post it, cut & paste right into the thread, please!

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[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by rohrt

This may be of interest to some, I put together a list of the most common providers of A-arms, their cost and if the had geometry changes to them. I don't have it in front of me, but basically the prices were mostly within $300 of each other if you were going to buy both upper and lower together. Some Arms have no geometry changes, some had only geometry changes to the upper for more caster and a few few had both upper and lower geometry changes so the added caster would keep the wheel centered in the wheel well.

I bolded the most important part of your statement here. For most cars, if you do uppers only and run 5+ degrees of caster, you will have wheel well scrub if you're running wider rubber.

You definitely want the geometry corrected lower control arm to match and keep that wheel centered.

I'd also be interested in that list.

FWIW I have just under $2000 into my front suspension. It's expensive, but I'll pit this thing, with it's giant hunk of iron up front against most anything that's modern. The grip level for having a 245 series tire up front is hard to comprehend. It consists of the following:

SPC Uppers and Lowers (greasable delrin bushings, progress rate jounce bumpers, aligned at -.5* camber +5 caster 1/16th" toe in)
Howe .9" tall upper ball joints (NASCAR screw in style) (stock GM short spindle)
Howe standard height lower ball joints and tall tie-rod ends
Hotchkis 2" drop big block springs
Hellwig 1 1/4" hollow sway bar
Verishock SS non-adjustable

The rear is still leaf with Hotchkis 3" drop leafs and Verishock SS non-adjustables. I have a Hellwig rear 1" adjustable solid bar for the car as well, yet to be installed. Without the rear bar the ass-end is pretty lazy compared to the front end. You'd probably need to run something around a 400lb rate spring in the back to go without the bar.

There's some things here I'd recommend not doing based on how the car drives and some of the things I've personally learned putting this together for my car.

1. Where possible keep drop springs (front and rear) to a minimum. They destroy your suspension travel. That's okay for race cars, it's not for street cars. If you want to drop the car a bit, a good portion of your drop in the front should be done at the spindle, where it doesn't impact your suspension travel. For the rear on leaf spring cars, target a small drop from the spring and use a lowering block to set your ride height. That will keep the spring from reverse arching and binding on itself. Coil spring cars are less of an issue here, just don't go too far.

2. You don't need as much spring rate. When you start addressing the geometry issues inherent in the suspension, you don't need to crutch it with heavy spring rates to get it to turn. For any type of performance driving the factory rates are still way too soft, but you don't need to have 600 lb springs up front either. You may lose a bit at the local auto-x, but the car will be far more compliant on the street.

3. Worry more about driving dynamics and feel than about how the car looks. I wanted my tires tucked under the fenders and I certainly achieved that. As stated previously though, all of my drop is in the springs and so my suspension travel is pretty dismal right now. It would be fine for a race car that carries 800 lb springs on it, but a large enough bump on the street and the car slams into the jounce bumper cups. These cars sat tall, to an extent if you want comfort and performance, you really need to let them sit a little taller.

4. Do it all at the same time. I pieced my system together as time and money allowed. That's part of the reason I ran into the issues above. Talk to the experts, let them know exactly what you're doing with the car and buy it and install it all at the same time. You cut down on install time or labor if you're paying and there's less chance you're going to have weird issues crop up. Had I purchased everything at the same time in an informed manor, I'd probably have addressed all three of my issues prior to them becoming issues.

For posterity, I've uploaded a side shot showing the current stance of the car as well as a shot underneath so you can see the suspension bits and how much compression travel I (don't) have.

[rohrt]

This was the list I was working on. I actually am going with SPC upper and lowers myself.

SPC Lower $548pr. Upper 355.90
Uppers are adjustable. Lowers?. Can use a regular spring. Uses spacers.

BMR Lower 469.95 Upper $499.95
A-arms, Upper, Pro-Touring, Tall Ball Joint, Delrin Bushings
2 degree from the uppers and 2 degrees from the lowers
polyurethane bushings

Globalwest Lower $656.25 Upper $549.00
Claims that 6deg of caster is the sweet spot.
billet cross shaft. Delrin greasable bushings.
Lowers work with springs. All Geometry change is in the upper not the lower.

Speedtech a-arms (lower $690 upper, $579)
*For coil spring applications you must order spring isolators below.
Works with either standard coil springs or coil over shocks
Improved geometry- Built-in 4 degrees positive caster Uppers.
Derlrin Bushings installed.

DSE A-arms (695 upper, 675 lower)

increasing camber gain and improving roll camber. These aluminum bushings adjust caster by moving the upper control arm fore/aft for more or less caster without adding alignment shims. greaseable aluminum/Delrin bushings have an increased stiffness over stock.

QA1 (lower 539 + Upper $397)

Global West (upper $549.00 + lower $729.00)

[JLMounce]

I can fill in the gaps for the SPC arms, at least as they relate to ist gen F bodies and A bodies.

Uppers can be had with greasable delrin bushings or high durometer rubber.
Pro light aluminum adjusters are available to help shave unsprung rate
NASCAR style screw in ball joints are also available. The pro light sleeves and screw in joints are an up-charge

The SPC arms align from the arm itself, they don't utilize shims as a result.

The SPC lowers have 2* of caster added to them and are designed to recenter the wheel after large caster increases.
They will accept standard coil springs or "coil-over" conversions
SPC offers spring height adjusters for the lower arm as well as upper pocket adjustment pads if needed to tune ride height
The lowers can come delrin bushed or with high durometer rubber. However the arm is designed as a self aligning jig for the mounts in the frame. They correct what typically happens over time with the factory rubber bushings.

I did not weigh the entire system, but my upper arms with the pro-light adjusters are noticeably lighter than the factory upper arms. The lower arms are slightly lighter than the factory lower. Not by much, but enough to notice, in hand.

[HWYSTR455]

Excellent info.

To add, when adjusting 'ride height', you really should be adjusting corner weight.

When choosing bushings, you really should be choosing the Del-A-Lum or similar solid type of bushing/bearing/joint. This allows free, unbinding movement, allows the suspension to 'work' properly, and is regardless of application. Then tune your springs and shocks. And no, it's a common misconception that solid bushings make for a harsh ride and transmit vibrations. Shocks/springs control that.

Herb Adams' comments on bump stops are that they are actually part of the suspension that impact characteristics at the end of travel. (no pun intended). He used them as tuning devices, and depending on how the car was setup, used several different sizes and hardness.

One of the big gotchas I've seen is where people use or 'go back to' factory type control arm bushings. The hardness value of the bushings, because of the way the sleeve bites the frame should be calculated along with the rate of the spring as the factory did.

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[HWYSTR455]

What I don't like about the SPC uppers is there's no cross brace, so there's deflection. Much less than a stock arm, but still, they deflect some.

I don't think not requiring shims is a big deal, since alignments are generally a set-it-and-forget-it type thing. When the control arm has geometry built in, it won't require a lot of shims anyway.

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[NeighborsComplaint]

I have them on my '71. No regrets. They ride better than stock, handle better than stock and weigh less than stock.