[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by 78w72

hmmm...

pulls the wheels & goes low 9's with a 200r. guess it takes the right builder.... didnt you say 200r were junk?? there are countless 200r doing low to high 10's & stockers doing 11's. any tranny can support big power with the right build.

wish we could tag members, i think hwystr455 has or has done a 4l80.

I got another car if that one hurt your feelings.

(and your 200 holds up)

[HWYSTR455]

Yawn. Another 200/700/4L60e/4L80e thread.

The 4L80/85e is the most cost effective and strongest option for an OD retrofit. Period. Even the 'pro' builders say it now as well. Call and ask them.

Price a 'properly built' 200, 700, or 4L60e and compare to the cost of a 4L80/85e. Write it down and post it. And no 'my buddy can do one for half that' crap, that doesn't count.

Natively, the 4L80e is rated at 600ftlbs, with minor mods easily do 800ftlbs, and built have been used behind 2000hp strip cars.

For less money, a 4L80/85e will hold more power (TQ) than any of the previously mentioned units.

You don't have to spend the bux on a cable drive 'conversion' tailshaft housing, you can buy a cableX box or similar, the prices keep coming down, and are less than the housing. The drive boxes are about $300, $250 if you can get deals. Or, convert your OE to VSS, or use an aftermarket speedo.

Everyone that has ridden in a car that has an e-controlled lockup trans admits the driving experience is hand-down better, or, they are lying. If you're going to do it, just do it.

Plenty of examples of installs all over the 'net, search it. I did mine in '08, will never go back to non-OD non-e setups. (except for some rare examples).

Here's my '08 install thread:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...=4l80e+install

.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

You don't have to spend the bux on a cable drive 'conversion' tailshaft housing, you can buy a cableX box or similar, the prices keep coming down, and are less than the housing. The drive boxes are about $300, $250 if you can get deals. Or, convert your OE to VSS, or use an aftermarket speedo.

.

I decided against that. I'm just one that would rather simplify the final product and I don't want boxes and control units, GPS or any other kind of electronic monkey business just to run a speedometer, I don't want aftermarket speedos or gauges either. Stock appearance is key.
I just prefer the clean installation of simply plugging in my stock cable into the housing and let the mechanical gears work the speedo......done. Less crap to go wrong later.

I don't mind spending $600 for the conversion. By the time you buy those drive boxes you're already half way there anyway, and if you decide to go the aftermarket speedo route and convert to VSS, you'll be WAY beyond the $600 price for the aftermarket mechanical tail housing anyway.

It's all about what you want in the end. I know people are on a budget, I am too, but this is one area I drew the line and I'm not going to cry about trying to save $2-$300 on a $5000 swap when it's all said and done, that's a small amount in the grand scheme of things.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

I just wish the 4l80 had a taller overdrive. With a 3.73 axle and a 26” tire you’re still close to 3000 rpm at 75 mph. I can get decently close to that by doing a low gearset in my th400 and swapping to a 3.08.

This is one of the things that drove me to having a 4l60e built. I’ve never installed it though simply because of these threads. I just don’t know how it’ll hold up, if at all.

I'm with ya on the overdrive ratio. Don't know why GM decided on the .75 overdrive for this trans and it's a bit of a bummer, but the end result will still be worlds better on both ends of the spectrum than a 3.08/turbo 400 setup.

The one I'm doing now has 4.10's with a 28" tire, and I've had the car that way since 1987. So even a .75 overdrive with a lockup converter will be a welcome addition and night/day difference from what I'm used to. Right now 65 mph is 3400 rpm. With a .75 and lockup, I'll be at 2400 rpm. I can now easily cruise 70 mph at 2600 rpm, and push 75 if I want with no trouble, and I'm okay with that.

However the .75 overdrive never swayed me a bit in making a transmission decision for this particular car. I'll take the durability, the lockup converter, and the fact that an electronic controller can now precisely control shift points as all added benefits too. It'll be nice at the track to just let the trans do it's thing, lock up the converter in any gear and experiment with the different possibilities, and all the while not worry about breaking this thing.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Everyone that has ridden in a car that has an e-controlled lockup trans admits the driving experience is hand-down better, or, they are lying. If you're going to do it, just do it.


.

I agree on that, the lockup converters controlled electronically are hands down better. They can be precisely controlled to lock and unlock at any given time or circumstance, making them much more drivable and enjoyable, especially behind an engine with a large overlap camshaft. I experimented a lot with this during my LS days, and the electronic transmission control is fantastic!!
It's especially noticeable and more beneficial with aftermarket stall converters

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

Be sure to get a 4L80 with "TH400 location" cooling line pair. The other case type puts cooling line back too far to enjoy connecting. Yet, also be sure to get a 4L80 Core that has not been cooked. Coworked got a nuclear-brunt unit that melted-fragged the rear planets from driving home in 2nd gear for 1/2 hour.

The banjo fittings that are on the market now solve the issue of hooking up the rear trans line in these retro swaps. I think someone even linked to it later after I mentioned it in my first post.

These days, if you buy from a quality builder, you don't even have to worry about rear planetary lube on the older units with both cooler lines up front. Places like Hughes and Jakes, and I'm sure others now, modify these older cases for better rear lube making the desire for the newer rear lube case unnecessary.

However you still have the choice of either case with various builders if you wish. I'm dealing with Hughes, and decided on the older case with both cooler lines up front, with no additional cost for the case mods to improve rear lube. It just simplifies the cooler line install without the need to buy the banjo fittings. The other benefit is that it has the shorter shift selector shaft too making linkage or cable hookups a bit easier/cleaner. The later model rear cooler line units started also putting the neutral safety switch on the selector shaft making the shaft longer. That wasn't needed in my application since my neutral safety is on the floor shifter itself. So one less thing to plug in on the transmission too.

Just a lot of little things to consider that most probably don't concern themselves with.

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Yawn. Another 200/700/4L60e/4L80e thread+install.

I can't agree with you more. Build whatever works for you. You got deep pockets, build a 200. You want a good tranny at a reasonable price, build any of the other GM/OD's. My next build will be a Ford AOD. Hearing a lot of pluses about those.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

I can't agree with you more. Build whatever works for you. You got deep pockets, build a 200. You want a good tranny at a reasonable price, build any of the other GM/OD's. My next build will be a Ford AOD. Hearing a lot of pluses about those.

Had a built AOD in my sons car for several years. Was a stage II build with some Bowler parts added in from a local shop here, they claimed good for about 450 hp. Wasn't exactly a cheap build but it was an excellent transmission and worked flawlessly. They have a really deep .67 overdrive so that was nice, and comes in handy, because you really need a decent rear gear with this trans if you want to do any serious dragstrip fun with it since it only has a 2.40 first gear.

Most guys in the Ford circles using this trans want a minimum 4.10 gear. I ran 3.73's and it was okay. A good lockup stall converter is a big help in this area and will sort of bandaid the rear gear choice, but again you're stuck with a cable driven lockup feature on this trans and I was never overly excited about that. The Bowler kit allowed more adjustability however to make it livable.

[Chief of the 60's]

I fully understand the functions and reasons for a lockup but many experienced OD builders are totally against a lockup converter in a tranny used for racing. Many of those same builder are also against a tranny brake in an OD.

[Stan Weiss]

Will a 6L80 fit?

Stan

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

I fully understand the functions and reasons for a lockup but many experienced OD builders are totally against a lockup converter in a tranny used for racing. Many of those same builder are also against a tranny brake in an OD.

I'm yes and no on that subject for a lot of reasons why that are too lengthy to discuss. The only way I'll even consider an automatic overdrive is with a lockup converter, but that is with electronic control. Just to hit on one reason why.....

Pretty much everything I do here requires some sort of custom stall converter. Then couple in the fact that most places have a hard time building an efficient one that couples nicely, and lord knows we've had plenty of threads about that around here so that's been very well discussed.

So my issue is having that overdrive ratio drop the rpm another 600-800, with a converter that is really not efficient enough to begin with, then you have a very loose/mushy feeling at low rpm cruising that for me, isn't enjoyable at all and not what I want in a car, and most of the swaps I do here for people don't want that either.

I've dealt with Continental for years that built me very nice efficient converters right up until they went out of business, and lately Cliff has been extremely helpful with a new company in getting converters dialed in for me as well. But having a lockup feature just goes a long way in taking that variable out of the equation, even though I still prefer an efficient converter for other reasons too long to explain.

However with that said, I really only prefer the lockup features if they are electronically controlled, and that is the key. If you're doing a cable version of the overdrive, then I would lean more towards a very efficient converter as a MUST and skip the lockup feature. It's a real pain in the butt to dial in a livable lockup range on cable operated transmissions when you start getting into the performance end of things. So the 700's, 200's, AOD's, I'd probably avoid the lockup using it behind a performance engine. Electronic control however is a whole new ball game.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Will a 6L80 fit?

Stan

My fathers truck has one of those, they are enormous transmissions lol. About the size of the Allison in my duramax.

Another option I've seen, but it's not cheap, are some places offering 6 speed conversions in the 4L80E cases. It's like a $6000 transmission though.

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I'm yes and no on that subject for a lot of reasons why that are too lengthy to discuss. The only way I'll even consider an automatic overdrive is with a lockup converter, but that is with electronic control. Just to hit on one reason why.....

Pretty much everything I do here requires some sort of custom stall converter. Then couple in the fact that most places have a hard time building an efficient one that couples nicely, and lord knows we've had plenty of threads about that around here so that's been very well discussed.

So my issue is having that overdrive ratio drop the rpm another 600-800, with a converter that is really not efficient enough to begin with, then you have a very loose/mushy feeling at low rpm cruising that for me, isn't enjoyable at all and not what I want in a car, and most of the swaps I do here for people don't want that either.

I've dealt with Continental for years that built me very nice efficient converters right up until they went out of business, and lately Cliff has been extremely helpful with a new company in getting converters dialed in for me as well. But having a lockup feature just goes a long way in taking that variable out of the equation, even though I still prefer an efficient converter for other reasons too long to explain.

However with that said, I really only prefer the lockup features if they are electronically controlled, and that is the key. If you're doing a cable version of the overdrive, then I would lean more towards a very efficient converter as a MUST and skip the lockup feature. It's a real pain in the butt to dial in a livable lockup range on cable operated transmissions when you start getting into the performance end of things. So the 700's, 200's, AOD's, I'd probably avoid the lockup using it behind a performance engine. Electronic control however is a whole new ball game.

Maybe I'll just make my next build a Clutchflite

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

Maybe I'll just make my next build a Clutchflite

Old school is good with me!!

[72projectbird]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

I just wish the 4l80 had a taller overdrive. With a 3.73 axle and a 26” tire you’re still close to 3000 rpm at 75 mph. I can get decently close to that by doing a low gearset in my th400 and swapping to a 3.08.

This is one of the things that drove me to having a 4l60e built. I’ve never installed it though simply because of these threads. I just don’t know how it’ll hold up, if at all.

That's what I've been hung up on too. Right now I run a TH350 and a 3:23 with a 28" tall tire, and it's not bad at all on the highway. Switching to a 4L80 would be great if I leave the rear gear in it, but any steeper and you start losing the advantage of OD.

I've been toying with the idea of a 6L90. Obviously that's a whole different game than swapping in a 4L, but it might be worth it when done.

[Stan Weiss]

Does anyone know if the torque rating here are correct?

https://www.s10forum.com/threads/4l6...-4l70e.850907/

Stan

[1968GTO421]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Does anyone know if the torque rating here are correct?

https://www.s10forum.com/threads/4l6...-4l70e.850907/

Stan

Thanks Stan, This is an interesting read. Sorry, don't know if torque ratings are accurate.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by 72projectbird

That's what I've been hung up on too. Right now I run a TH350 and a 3:23 with a 28" tall tire, and it's not bad at all on the highway. Switching to a 4L80 would be great if I leave the rear gear in it, but any steeper and you start losing the advantage of OD.

I've been toying with the idea of a 6L90. Obviously that's a whole different game than swapping in a 4L, but it might be worth it when done.

Yeah the more and more that I think about it. To get the torque handling I need with the performance ratios I’m after and an OD tall enough for comfortable long distance highway driving pretty much pushes me towards an auto to manual swap.

The TKO600, new TKX and the Magnum T56 all do exactly what I need with the rear ratio and tire sizes I already run.

I may price those as well as total cost of doing a low gearset 4l80 and reducing the gear ratio in the rear.

It’s kind of too bad I already had the 4l60 built and purchased a custom billet converter for it already.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

Yeah the more and more that I think about it. To get the torque handling I need with the performance ratios I’m after and an OD tall enough for comfortable long distance highway driving pretty much pushes me towards an auto to manual swap.

The TKO600, new TKX and the Magnum T56 all do exactly what I need with the rear ratio and tire sizes I already run.

I may price those as well as total cost of doing a low gearset 4l80 and reducing the gear ratio in the rear.

It’s kind of too bad I already had the 4l60 built and purchased a custom billet converter for it already.

I looked at the stick option really hard for myself and this particular car I'm doing now. Even went through with 3 different quotes.

I ran into a few other issues though. For starters the auto to manual TKX swap is a bit more money. While that's not a huge deal breaker, what really stopped me was the torque rating. It's borderline for the car I'm doing the swap in with the current engine, and definitely not enough for the new engine.

So I figured I better do a Magnum 6speed but the cost jumped another $1500 to the point I finally had to say that's just too much money. So I skipped the manual idea for this car.

I suppose with the .75 overdrive causing contemplation, one could keep a more reasonable rear gear in the car if you had enough engine, looking at it from a track performance standpoint.
Mine has been setup around the 4.10's for more than 30 years, I like how the car acts, performs, 60 foots, etc... and the rpm I cross the finish line is perfect with my 28" tire so I'm not 100% on board with changing it but not against the idea. With the new engine at a later date I might pull it back to a 3.73 at the most.
That would be about perfect, 2500 rpm is 75 mph cruising. I'll do that all day long.

The only difference I see between mine and your combo (if I do 3.73's) is the really short tire your running. Your 26 inch to my 28 is worth 4 mph all by itself.
Which is why 3.73's and the .75 overdrive looks good in my setup compared to yours.

[68lemans462]

You have blown up 6 of these! Good god Dave you have more patience than I do! That 455 is making some good power.... Let me know if you need a hand with the install. At the least I'm good at bringing a bottle of whiskey and a bad joke! Happy new year bro!! -Dan