[oville]

1 of the reasons went with hydraulic cause worried about lash adjustments with the AL head growth

[TCSGTO]

I have to set the lash on my hybrid setup very tight or I get tapping after a 1/4 mile pass on hot days for a few seconds until the heads can dissipate some heat. I run as tight as I can measure reliably, about 2 to 3 thou cold. This keeps things quiet under all conditions and makes a little more power too.

[HWYSTR455]

http://johncalliesinc.com/tech_information.php

"b. If your adjuster nut is 7/16 x 20 threads per inch, then divide 1 inch by 20 threads per inch. One complete turn down on a 7/16 by 20 adjuster nut will move .050".
c. Next, divide .050" divide by 4 to calculate the distance for a quarter-turn of the adjuster nut (.050" / 4 = .0125").
d. For a 3/8 x 24 adjuster nut, the calculations are: 1" / 24 TPI = .042" per full turn and .042" / 4 = .0105" per quarter-turn. "

" Cast Iron block and Cast Iron Head = .020" - .025"
Cast Iron block and Aluminum Head = .030" - .035"
Aluminum block and Aluminum Head = .045" - .050" "

This pertains to the Morel HYD lifters, Callies owns/makes them. To my knowledge, they only make 'limited' travel hyd rollers for Pontiac, sometimes referred to 'short' travel, but aren't as short of travel as some other makes.

For aluminum heads on an iron block, you can see John C recommends an additional .010 - .015 tighter lash. It's only a 'guide', and I too have heard .005 - .007 as a guide for Pontiacs with aluminum heads. Believe Dave Butler gave me that info.

I went .020 - .025 on my Olds engine initially, and it needs more, think I have them at like .035 to quiet them up.

.

[lust4speed]

The Crane roller lifters are steel, and I believe the top Comps are also - but aren't the cheaper roller lifter bodies cast iron? At what point are the cheaper cast lifters a concern?

[oville]

Does it make any difference if you hold the polylock & tighten set screw vs tightening both at same time. Had heard doing both at once really gets it tightened up better..this seems strange but was told so by a known Pontiac guy.

[lust4speed]

Personally, I would not trust just tightening the set screw. Both are pretty hard grades of steel, and it is extremely difficult to get enough bite or purchase into the stud without bringing both down together. Threads on most polylocks are not that great and quite a bit of the tightening torque is being wasted on fighting friction between the set screw and nut. Finally, just consider the additional amount of turning force available using both a wrench and Allen Wrench. I'd say that just mild tightening both at the same time doubles the holding force over the maximum available with just tightening the set screw.

[78w72]

this is a very informative thread. i had the original version of the comp lifters & after a short time (< 1000 miles) had multiple tickers. comp warrantied them with the new "s" versions & they were much quieter at first but have developed a very slight tick only after fully warmed up, leading me to believe the aluminum heads are causing it, they are silent when cold & untill full warm up.

my question to cliff or anyone based on cliffs earlier post... should i run a little tighter lash to compensate for this alum head expansion? the newer comp lifters have a 1/2 turn past zero lash suggestion, i assume because they are "short travel", is it ok to go a full turn or maybe 3/4 turn? that will tighten them up a bit with less oil under the plunger as cliff mentioned but should also take up any slack when the heads expand under heat.

also, if im at 1/2 turn past zero now & i know my lock nuts havent moved, couldnt i just turn every nut 1/4-1/2 turn & be at the 3/4-1 full turn? eliminating the need to re-adjust them all over again?

[Cliff R]

"I'd say that just mild tightening both at the same time doubles the holding force over the maximum available with just tightening the set screw."

Correct, however I've split two nuts doing the final adjustment in this manner. One of them I felt let go, the other I didn't find out about till it started tapping really loud.

This was on my old set of Crane rockers, but the lock-nuts may have been offshore manufacture. Using Comp Cams locknut at the moment, haven't split any of them to date.

As for running HR's deeper with aluminum heads, it really isn't a big deal. From what I've seen with most flat and HR lifters it's better to run them mid-way in the travel vs just 1/4 to 1/2 turns past zero lash.

So it pays to check total plunger travel during the rebuild or cam/lifter install to see if they are short travel or not?

WAY back when I got into this hobby, the trend was to run the lifter preload pretty light. These days I want them deeper, to make things quieter and less oil under the plungers vs more noise and more oil under them......Cliff

[oville]

Had one got stuck down right off the bat (warrenty return) and now this loud ticker on the pass side; and this is with all of 1 mile on the car. Will go 1 full turn per the jury, but thinking if I'm still getting noise what Comp would even do for me. Not to happy with $$$ for these lifters, new pushrods and 2 sets intake & valley pan....already regretting not going hybrid from the start...

[78w72]

Originally Posted by oville

Had one got stuck down right off the bat (warrenty return) and now this loud ticker on the pass side; and this is with all of 1 mile on the car. Will go 1 full turn per the jury, but thinking if I'm still getting noise what Comp would even do for me. Not to happy with $$$ for these lifters, new pushrods and 2 sets intake & valley pan....already regretting not going hybrid from the start...

comps usually very willing to help, they replaced mine a couple months out of warranty. yes pulling the intake & v/p is stupid but at least they replaced the $500 lifters.

whats the consensus on just tightening up the rocker nuts 1/4-1/2 turn if everything is already adjusted? would save some time & effort for guys that already have them adjusted.

[oville]

I agree their support is good and they're friendly on the phone.

[Cliff R]

On a personal note, I have never had good luck with any type of hydraulic lifter dating clear back to when I first entered this hobby.

For some reason I've never been able to get a set of 16 lifters without a "ticker" someplace.

I've also noticed that with any set I've ever owned/used that there were a LOT louder running them down 1/4 to 1/2 turn vs going down 3/4 to one full turn, especially when the engine really got hot and oil thinned out some.

Quite a few years back we started using Rhoads lifters, and even dyno tested them back to back against Johnson HT-951 lifters. We found that the Rhoads lifters improved idle vacuum by apprx 2". They showed no loss of power anyplace and actually made just a fuzz-nut more power in the upper rpm range than the standard lifters did.

We even tightened up the brake on the dyno and made a few low rpm pulls and clear down to 2800rpm's they were equal in power to the standard lifters, which tells us that they are well "pumped-up" by then and acting like standard lifters.

These days for our flat cammed engines we use the Rhoads V-max, and adjust them with a feeler gauge between the valve and rocker arm. This precisely controls the plunger height, how much they can "bleed-off" at idle, and the noise. This allows us to "tight lash" them and have very close control of how much oil is under the plungers, bleed-off capability, and how noisy they will be when the engine is fully warmed up.

With HR lifters we don't have the bleed off feature, and really don't need it as most of these HR cams are shorter seat timing and produce good idle vacuum anyhow. For the most part I've had very good success with HR lifters, but they can cause the engine to "go dead" at high rpms (apprx 5800 or so) with standard weight valvetrain parts, so we often go with the "hybrid" set up instead, which is not rpm limited, and the engine will continue to pull right past 6000rpms usually faster than you can move the shifter!

I've also noticed, and mentioned this before, that we've observed several changes to the currently available HR lifters. They have reduced plunger travel in the last couple of sets we've used here, and the spring under the plungers appears to be stronger as well, as they do not compress nearly as easily without any oil in them like previous versions have.

I suspect, due to inherent problems with earlier designs, that the manufacturers are taking steps to make better parts. In any case, I would NOT run HR lifters close to zero lash, and for sure I would bottom one of them out to see how much plunger travel was available before simply running them down any specific number of turns and going with it. Most should be fine with 3/4 to 1 full turn down from zero lash from what I've seen here, but even with that said, the engine builder should be checking them to make sure you aren't bottoming out the plungers in the lifter bodies, or leaving a ton of oil under the plungers, etc......Cliff

[oville]

Ran valves last night and 3 hot restarts after letting it sit for 5 min the loud ticker on pass side is quiet. Went 3/4 past zero lash then additional 1/4 cranking down set screw at the same time.
With it idling standing next to motor you do here more lifter noise than I did with the old flat tappet 400 with 145k miles. Can't hear it in car with hood down, but guessing its as good as it gets, don't have a selection of other 455s around here to listen to.
Are there any engine running threads? Does seem like the motor shakes a bit at idle, but has the old faithful can with 1.65 scorpion rockers and stock rubber engine mounts

[78w72]

so you went to 1 full turn? what lifters are these, the "old" original comps or the newer 857s lifters?

[78w72]

nevermind, just saw earlier post saying they are the newer "s" lifters.

comp says 1/2 turn on these, so like me maybe thats too loose with alum head expansion. glad to hear they quieted down when you went a little tighter. also some of the noise you hear might be from the roller rockers compared to stock stamped ones.

[tom s]

Talked to Joe Sherman the other day about what he calls sissy lifters.He has found X tra RPMs by going to 20-50 oil from the lighter weights.I dont remember what was in my V engine when it was on his dyno.I dont know if heaver oil would make them more or less noisy. FWIW,Tom

[oville]

Pretty sure I've got 20w-50 in there, good FL oil, think 60 was our deep freeze last winter...

[78w72]

Originally Posted by tom s

Talked to Joe Sherman the other day about what he calls sissy lifters.He has found X tra RPMs by going to 20-50 oil from the lighter weights.I dont remember what was in my V engine when it was on his dyno.I dont know if heaver oil would make them more or less noisy. FWIW,Tom

xtra rpms from 20/50 oil? can anyone elaborate on that?

[oville]

Pushing on the rockers even after 1 turn seems like could go 1 more full turn and still not be bottomed out (which did cross my mind reading Cliff's posts). Thought about bottoming them out and then backing off 1 turn!...if that ticker shows up again that may be what happens.

[Steve C.]

BrazilianZ28Camaro wrote:

Hello fellas

I'm just wondering IF lighter oils like 5w-30 mineral or syntetic can cause a high performance hyd lifter bleed down easier during the valve open thus causing power LOSS.


Yes.
In our circle track engines that are restricted to hydraulic cams, we run 50w.
On the dyno, the power holds on much longer.

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19295

Stated elsewhere: "higher viscosity prevents collapse, not pump up"



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