[HWYSTR455]

When I set initial timing, I set it at 12, and that was at idle. Paul specifically mentioned to me directly that the 18 degree black bushing was in place. The note with the engine stated to ensure max timing was no more than 34 degrees. That was determined on the dyno. And agree with your comments, no way you can determine a curve on a dyno, HAS to be in the car and by trial.

In the one vid, I noticed they were holding the RPM around 3-3500, and setting the timing. That's where my comments are directed. IMO, that's pointless, and can cause initial to be off (EDIT: for example, if total doesn't come in until 4k). On the second vid, when cranking, it struggled, hence my thoughts of it being too advanced. (initial)

Vacuum can has been plugged this entire time.

BBC rod journals are actually smaller, so there would be more likely to be an issue using a factory crank/stroke. Or at least that's my line of thought. (correct me if I'm off there)

Clay, in that second pic in your last post, you can see the counterweights on the crank have been clearanced, that appears to be an aftermarket crank, in the previous post, those clearanced areas are not present. I suspect it's possible on that second post, that clearanced crank was ment to be used with 6.70 rods. That may have been the issue there. But just guessing it's a possibility.

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[chiphead]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

And Paul is well aware of the rod issues when it comes to cranks with BBC rod journals and aftermarket rods in these Pontiacs. It's been a problem in the aftermarket for quite some time. That area has been addressed so you guys are going after a dead end there.

How do you know this has been addressed in this build? Have you been inside this engine? Do you have documentation of the parts used and clearances in question in this engine?

The shop that built the engine may be aware of proper clearances required, but are these clearances DOCUMENTED anywhere for this build? Typically you want at least .060" between the bottom of the piston and the crank counterweight. Autotec pistons want at least .050" side clearance between rod small end and pin boss of piston.

I had to have my aftermarket rods narrowed .045" on the small end to clear my autotec pistons. Eagle 6.8" rods and Scat 4" forged 3" main crank. Mine are BBC rods, and the rod offset isn't perfect when rods are used a Pontiac.

http://racetecpistons.com/media/pdf/...STRUCTIONS.pdf

Hard facts are in short supply in this thread. It's nigh impossible to give good advise unless you know things like dimensions of crank/rod/piston, piston material, compression test readings, all bottom end clearances, etc. All we've got here is a bunch of short youtube vids of a noisy motor and a room full of guys playing 20 questions. (myself included). Questions get raised that don't get run to ground. For example, sometime back there was a picture of very suspect valve adjustment, and several members questioned it. I don't recall seeing an answer or explanation about it. (The questionable poly-lock heights.)

If this was my motor, I would have resolved all valve setting and tuning issues first. Next would be a good compression test. If it continued to make noise and run like crap, it would be out and apart on my stand, while I verify all clearances in conjunction with the builder. Since Joe can't do this himself, he's going to have to have somebody do it for him. I'm sure he doesn't want to, but it's likely got to come out again, unless somebody finds something stupid in-car.

It's a sad state of affairs, because this sort of thing turns new guys off on the car hobby. It's not supposed to be this miserable. But it can be.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by 67gtospud

Reading through this thread and I don’t see mention of the flexplate at all. Is it new or used? What was used on the dyno? I know the op said he disconnected the converter to eliminate that, but was the flexplate checked? I’ve diagnosed multiple cracked flexplates over the years that have sounded like a spark knock at idle and faded as rpm raised with no load on the engine.

Way, way back in these 950+ posts, I suggested removing the flexplate completely and running the engine just to make sure. My dyno set-up requires a manual transmission flywheel, not a flex plate to be connected to the dyno drive plate. It's an old Superflow SF-901 about 20 years old. Set-ups have changed over the years and are much easier now. I have no idea how they were set-up on their dyno. But I agree this may be worth a look.

[HWYSTR455]

That's been done, several times. I even looked up there to see if the flexplate bolts were too long, I at one point suspected they may be, too long that is, and contacting the block.

Was even wondering if there was some casting flash at the top of the trans bell that might be making contact, since I'm trying to focus on things that were not present on the dyno.

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[Va68goat]

HWYSTR455,
Advanced and initial timing was sent a couple of days ago. You weren't here for that but the title in the video say where it was timed. The motor didn't seem too happy with 12 initial. It was moved around and the knocking was consistent. When you were at the house timing the motor, the idle was set way too high and the knocking noise was masked with the noise of the engine. The car has been timed by plenty of guys that have experience and the same knocking noise was present.

grivera,
A name or a time was not given to me.

Formulajones,
Nobody has touched the curve of the distributor. I don't know want to speak a bunch a nonsense because we all know I'm new to cars. The timing, both initial and advance have been tweaked but the same knocking noise is consistent. We switched out distributors and plug wires, timed it and the noise was still present. I thought I was pretty clear when I mentioned the compression test. Here is my exact quote "We did a compression test yesterday as well but before I post that, we want to verify with another gauge. The results were low but again, I don't want to post inaccurate information". Quoting the numbers and how the test was performed would just put this thread in another direction. Only makes sense to post the known facts. The things that you believe are known by Paul are irrelevant here. I don't know crap about motors but everyone is getting the information from me or guys that have worked on the car. Unless you were there with Paul building my motor, (Both times) you're the one at a dead end. I'm sure Paul reads this thread 3 times a day. He's a big boy, he can comment. Posting your thoughts on what Paul knows is like me posting the compression numbers without being certain. Since you're obviously talking to Paul, tell him to post the video of my motor running at idle from outside the booth. I'm sure a lot of forum members would like to see that!

[Va68goat]

Chiphead,
Do these pics help?

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by chiphead

How do you know this has been addressed in this build? Have you been inside this engine? Do you have documentation of the parts used and clearances in question in this engine?

Chip common man, Paul has built 100's of these things. The rod offset/piston issue has been documented many times on these forums and Paul is well aware of it. He goes through this **** on every Pontiac build. You can be damn sure Paul made that right. It's pretty much common practice these days on a Pontiac engine because the aftermarket hasn't caught up yet, or simply don't care. He's even told me he's called the manufactures on this deal to correct it. Paul made sure of this stuff, especially the second time around.

I'm telling you you're going down a dead end with that deal.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

HWYSTR455,

Formulajones,
Nobody has touched the curve of the distributor. I don't know want to speak a bunch a nonsense because we all know I'm new to cars. The timing, both initial and advance have been tweaked but the same knocking noise is consistent. We switched out distributors and plug wires, timed it and the noise was still present. I thought I was pretty clear when I mentioned the compression test. Here is my exact quote "We did a compression test yesterday as well but before I post that, we want to verify with another gauge. The results were low but again, I don't want to post inaccurate information". Quoting the numbers and how the test was performed would just put this thread in another direction. Only makes sense to post the known facts. The things that you believe are known by Paul are irrelevant here. I don't know crap about motors but everyone is getting the information from me or guys that have worked on the car. Unless you were there with Paul building my motor, (Both times) you're the one at a dead end. I'm sure Paul reads this thread 3 times a day. He's a big boy, he can comment. Posting your thoughts on what Paul knows is like me posting the compression numbers without being certain. Since you're obviously talking to Paul, tell him to post the video of my motor running at idle from outside the booth. I'm sure a lot of forum members would like to see that!

Posting that the numbers were low without posting numbers doesn't tell anyone anything. Low is an irrelevant term and means different things to different people. If you want honest answers and proper help, then posting the information you say you found is the only way you'll get that. Generally the numbers are written down as you go along and perform the test. If you don't have that information obviously someone does....lets post it. Otherwise it's meaningless and leads us in no direction what so ever. I understand if you're uncertain and don't want to misinform, that's fine. But a follow up with numbers would be appropriate so everyone else doesn't start going down another dark hole.

Paul is pretty much done with this thread thanks to the way he's been treated.
I can tell you I've been there and done that. I doubt Paul would have idle video standing right next to the engine because that's just generally not how that deal is done. You stand there and make preliminary adjustments, that's about it, you jump in the other room. You don't stand right there next to the engine when pulls are made and we for sure don't have 4 arms to hold cameras and make adjustments. He's also not the one operating the dyno so he's not calling the shots. You set your carb and timing, make your pull and shut it down. Any shots of the engine idling would be done from the dyno room where the engine is fired off, that's how it was done when I was there.
If Paul says it didn't make noise on the dyno, then it didn't make noise. He cut the oil filter open and found nothing, He pulled your distributor just to double check the bushing was okay, he found nothing wrong. It was a healthy engine when it left the shop. And for those that aren't aware, the flexplate is not used on the dyno.
I think when you guys calm down and come to your senses and stop pointing fingers and worrying about finding someone to blame, you might realize that something changes once the engine is in the car and maybe concentrate on those areas, you'll find the cause. At the very least cut the filter open again and see what it looks like.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

HWYSTR455,
Advanced and initial timing was sent a couple of days ago. You weren't here for that but the title in the video say where it was timed. The motor didn't seem too happy with 12 initial. It was moved around and the knocking was consistent. When you were at the house timing the motor, the idle was set way too high and the knocking noise was masked with the noise of the engine. The car has been timed by plenty of guys that have experience and the same knocking noise was present.

Ok, you can't set initial and total without changing the bushing in the distributor, period. Just need to point that out. When I checked the timing last it was at 1000 rpm, I blipped the throttle a little to make sure the timing wasn't varying, so was pretty confident initial was 12.

What's initial at now?

You say the engine wasn't happy at 12 initial? What were the symptoms that made that determination? I'm curious.

.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Ok, you can't set initial and total without changing the bushing in the distributor, period. Just need to point that out. When I checked the timing last it was at 1000 rpm, I blipped the throttle a little to make sure the timing wasn't varying, so was pretty confident initial was 12.

What's initial at now?

You say the engine wasn't happy at 12 initial? What were the symptoms that made that determination? I'm curious.

.

I'm with ya Highway.

Now that I know the distributor has the black bushing, (key information) that is the biggest bushing that MSD supplies. To get 34 total all in you are likely going to end up with at least 16 initial.

More than likely you'll have to swap the bushing for one of the smaller ones so you can keep the initial lower and still have your 34 total. If it didn't like 12 degrees then some other adjustments and tuning might need to be done. Idling at 1,000 doesn't sound low at all for an engine with that size camshaft. In gear if it dropped to 800-850 I'd say you're doing pretty good. Then dial in the vacuum for about 10-12 degrees for a little better idle quality (manifold) and you'll have to decide whether you want ported or manifold vacuum

Process of elimination.

Problem I see is there are so many guys with there hands on this thing, once something is set, it's changed again by someone else and so on and so forth. I don't know how you guys are going to get anywhere with that.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Ok, you can't set initial and total without changing the bushing in the distributor, period. Just need to point that out. When I checked the timing last it was at 1000 rpm, I blipped the throttle a little to make sure the timing wasn't varying, so was pretty confident initial was 12.

What's initial at now?

You say the engine wasn't happy at 12 initial? What were the symptoms that made that determination? I'm curious.

.

32° total @ 3,500 rpm's. 15° initial.

That goes right with your earlier post on total and distributor advance.
34°-18°=16°
Should be golden and plenty safe enough for a pump gas street engine.

Clay

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

32° total @ 3,500 rpm's. 15° initial.

That goes right with your earlier post on total and distributor advance.
34°-18°=16°
Should be golden and plenty safe enough for a pump gas street engine.

Clay

That's assuming it's fully advanced at 3500 rpm. That depends on the springs, and total may not come all in until say, 4000, or even 4500. If that were the case, for example, IF at 3500 you only have 15 degrees, add 3 more degrees to that 16 initial.

When I first got there on the day I visited, the rotor was at least half way between the #1 post on the cap and the #8. It had to have been like 15-20 initial, if not more.

Anyway, my original point was, you set initial timing at idle, and not just set max/total and let initial fall where it may. THEN you rev it up and make sure it's not exceeding the max target timing. But in this case, it's pretty clear that since it has the 18 degree bushing, total is not going to be off by much.

EDIT: When I say 15-20 degrees, I mean 15-20 degrees ABOVE the 12 initial.

.

[Formulajones]

I agree Clay that is generally a safe starting point. Some of these engines however sometimes don't want or need a bunch of initial timing. Since this has modern combustion chambers and tight quench, and enough compression to support the camshaft, it's probably pretty efficient and may not need that much initial.

The fact that Highway knocked it down to 12 and set the idle at a normal setting and stated the noise was somewhat subsided tells me he was likely heading in the right direction and is what I mentioned should have been done about 10 pages ago LOL

[chiphead]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Chip common man, Paul has built 100's of these things. The rod offset/piston issue has been documented many times on these forums and Paul is well aware of it. He goes through this **** on every Pontiac build. You can be damn sure Paul made that right. It's pretty much common practice these days on a Pontiac engine because the aftermarket hasn't caught up yet, or simply don't care. He's even told me he's called the manufactures on this deal to correct it. Paul made sure of this stuff, especially the second time around.

I'm telling you you're going down a dead end with that deal.

I agree, he knows and does all these things during a build that uses aftermarket bottom end parts. So where are the numbers? It's not in the data that Joe was given. Does Paul have this documented anywhere for process of elimination? Meaning, if he can prove he checked it, Joe and his helpers can strike it off the list for sure. Assume nothing when the problem is persistent.

I agree about too many cooks. It seems a few guys are going in after each other and possibly in a big circle with tuning. Motor should not be missing and hopping like it is, and for days. I can tune or diagnose a really crazy engine in about a day. Maybe not fix it, but at least diagnose the illness. Why is this taking so long to diagnose the shakes? If you could get it tuned and running good like the original install videos, that would give a good baseline. The original videos sounded really strong. At that point, you could move on to what could be causing the noise. If he can't find anything external, he's either got to pull the engine or drive it.

Valid compression test numbers would be interesting. What is static compression on this beast? A 10:1 462 with a healthy roller cam should have around 180-210 PSI.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

That's been done, several times. I even looked up there to see if the flexplate bolts were too long, I at one point suspected they may be, too long that is, and contacting the block.

Was even wondering if there was some casting flash at the top of the trans bell that might be making contact, since I'm trying to focus on things that were not present on the dyno.

.

Very good then. Don't mean to be bringing things back up that have been checked and verified. We are thinking along the same lines though. "What is different here in VA, that has changed from AZ on the engine dyno where the engine was quiet?" That's the big puzzler here.

Staying with the logic path above, and not hearing the engine in person. Any chance in hell on earth that something is broken apart in a muffler clanging around with the exhaust pulses and traveling up the pipes through the manifolds and to the engine? It's a crazy long shot but next time the engine is running, have someone listen right at the mufflers for any weird clanging noise. If you think there is any possibility of a noise transfer, get a packing blanket and wrap it around the muffler (s) to deaden them. See if the noise changes. Of course don't do this too long and catch the blankets on fire!

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

"What is different here in VA, that has changed from AZ on the engine dyno where the engine was quiet?" That's the big puzzler here.

I think short head pipes vs. duals out the back is the difference with that.

Just way too loud in the dyno room to hear the noise. Not being able to hear doesn't mean it didn't exist.

Clay

[Va68goat]

mgarblik,
The problem with the dyno is that I have received two different texts from Paul regarding if the noise could be heard in the dyno room. When the knocking noise was first discovered he sent a text and said there is no way he could have heard that knocking noise. Before he received the motor back, he sent me a text that he would have heard the knocking noise. When he dyno'd it this last time he said he would have heard it because 5 people were in the room and he wasn't wearing ear protection and he didn't hear the knock at idle. We can't assume anything regarding what could be heard in the dyno room. Apparently Paul made a comment on this thread about posting a video of my motor on the dyno, at idle but it hasn't been posted yet.

chiphead,
I've limited the cooks in the kitchen this time. I really don't want to mention the compression tests until we verify it with another gauge and a charged battery. I think that would be fair.

Formulajones,
I don't want to upset Mike or anyone else but I've been the one listening to this motor knock for over two years. I think the reason he thinks it subsided at 12 degrees is because it was idling around 1000-1100 rpm's. Ive been down that road of getting excited to hear "less" knocking but as soon as you bring it to normal idle, it's the exact same knock as before. I don't have to know motors to hear the same knock that has kept me off the road for 2 years.

mgarblik,
The fuel pump. That was blocked off and run off the fuel in the bowls. It knocked. We pulled the converter..it knocked. The knocking was consistent with the Street Avenger carb and the Jeff Koerner carb. We tried new wires and distributor..it knocked. Again, I don't know if the dyno room is conclusive if the knocking could be heard or not. Here are the pictures of my motor when it was on run 2 of the 4 times on the dyno. These pictures are when numbers were taken during the run. The top picture is the most recent one. I know this because it has 2 air breathers. I didn't do that until after I got the motor the first time. The bottom one is with headers even though it was known I was using manifolds. I assume it was done to get better numbers and to see how much more headers would give me.

[HWYSTR455]

Yeah, it 'seems' it was less of a knock, but when I heard the vid, it sounded the same. In the vids, it's more pronounced than in person, or at least that's what I recall. And I could have been mistaken, or wishful!

I really don't mind if people prove me wrong, I'm not that sensitive of a person, this is a very lucrative situation, and I'm just trying to check boxes off. I just feel there are still some unanswered questions is all, certainly not trying to say anyone is 'wrong'. It's frustrating to get second hand info too, sure the guys that were working on it would explain better.

Like I mentioned before, the vacuum gauge shows a flutter, and it coincides with the miss. I still feel that is key, and that there is some type of abnormal combustion, ignition issue, lean issue, or something. But that's just a gut feeling, other than the obvious miss, and the vacuum reading, there's nothing else that in my mind can cause that miss/vacuum issue.

.

[HWYSTR455]

This video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25qdxORqRsI&t=1s

The first 45 seconds, they are revving the engine to like 3500, and turning the dizzy several times. That's what I'm questioning. What's the purpose of that? They rev, he reads the timing, they let it idle down, and turn the dizzy without checking the timing before they rev it again. Then the next vid, they go to start it, and it lugs during cranking. That to me says too much initial timing.

I could be wrong, but that's what it looks like to me. And I'm looking at the coil, and the same ignition 12v wire is on there, which has a spliced wire in it.

.

[HWYSTR455]

Both the vids in post #801 are already after I switched the wire back from the direct batt one to the original ignition one, and had turned the idle speed down while it was not running. I know because I laid the wire across the engine and throttle cable over to the batt.

I dunno, I'm just trying pointing out stuff that's different from when it was on the dyno is all. There was one vid that was before the ones that were posted. And I honestly can't remember the sound from that vid, I've watched a bunch back to back and just can't tell/remember.

.