[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by redhawk44

I see one of the intake valves is especially clean. A lot cleaner then the rest, while it doesn't explain the nock is that cylinder even firing?

That's #8, and that's where the intake leak was, as well as the general area of the knock.

I still question the timing during much of the running, I doubt it was 'right'. That also would explain the uneven burn across the cyls. Also, the idle mix screws were all over the place.

All those pics are of the passenger side head, fyi.

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[Va68goat]

HWYSTR455,
These picture were taken last year (2018) when it didn't have a vacuum leak at the intake and was idling good. It didn't have a vacuum leak at the intake until I recently received the motor back after the bad distributor bushing was discovered. When Jeff's guy came by last week and checked the timing, he said the timing was spot on. Idle screws were set by Jeffs guy. These pictures were taken when I was running the 870 Street Avenger and it was idling great and the timing was good as well!

- Timing is correct
- Vacuum leak at intake fixed (new gasket)
- Idling much better
- Tried a different distributor and plug wires
- New lifters
- New Rockers
- New pushrods
- New flex plate
- New gas
- New distributor gear and bushing
- New carburetor
- New piston rings
- New bearings
- New intake gaskets
- light honing
- Heads inspected

** Same knocking noise as the day it was delivered to me 2 years ago**

[HWYSTR455]

That looks to me like the leak was present back then, and it has never idled right. You can go back on all the vids and see the engine shake.

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[Va68goat]

HWYSTR455,
We tested for a vacuum leak last year and nothing was discovered at the intake.

[Scott Stoneburg]

Ok. Let focus on whats up now. Not 2 years ago, those pics dont help much right now IMO. If you cut the oil filter open right now. Does it have any metal in it? If not...then I'm thinking piston slap, maybe wrist pin.

[GTO JONES]

But did you spray anything around the gasket area while running to see if the idle changed. I've done this and found vacuum leaks that I thought were sealed.

[HWYSTR455]

Here's it idling rough back in the beginning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q74Tj_I2mk4

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[Va68goat]

Scott Stoneburg,
I'll cut open the filter today and post some pictures.

GTO JONES,
I'll get that done tomorrow. Thats a good idea to test it again.

HWYSTR455,
Not saying the idle was perfect then. Just saying it's much better now then it was. We did test the intake last year for a vacuum leak and we didn't locate one. I'm assuming it's idling smooth enough to not be the source of the knocking noise?

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Here's it idling rough back in the beginning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q74Tj_I2mk4

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Not sure cold start counts. Appears choke opening wasn't adjusted to match throttle opening, from fast idle cam, in that video.

This thing knocks no matter how it idles. Cold, hot, smooth, rough....knocks all the same.

Clay

[ta man]

Any difference in any of the sparkplugs?

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Those cylinder head pics are from pretty early in your diagnosis, not presently, correct?

The timeline of this is VERY long and confusing to follow without researching this book!

Who pulled/installed the heads?
What was checked and by whom?

I highly agree, looks like it's on a high petro diet.Valve seats are likely just as laden with deposits at that time.

_Currently
Where was the intake vacuum leak, at which cylinder, pairs, and /or multiple locations?

The discovery and introduction of new base engine problems in the build/rebuild heavily taint this deal, beginning with the original, previously undisclosed, original dyno failure when trying to diagnose the noise.

Bottom line, the engine lost oil pressure on the dyno at birth... from an assembly failure. It just seems to be patch jobs from that point.
I'm deeply disappointed in this deal.
I've been on Paul/Jeff's end.It not a easy pill to swallow,
Menn take responsibility for their mistakes, and good business men make things right.

With that I'm impressed with Jeff's current appropriate actions.
The rest of this deal is a train wreck.
With that, I think I'll just watch from the sidelines from here out.

[Paul E]

You need to have a strategy and a plan to resolve any situation. A road map to success. Random trials and different results will only confuse and frustrate more.

Oil Analysis will tell you is there is something wearing or hitting and what metal is being worn. That will pretty much confirm or rule out the diagnosis of it being a mechanical issue and what material is wearing and identify where to look for the problem and solution. $30 and about 1 week wait.

No real wear from that will tell you it is spark, timing, fuel vacuum or something else.
for another $30 go to the local airport and get some 100 ll fuel and drain your tank and run it through. The extra octane will hide many problems and if the noise goes away you now have a direction to work for identification and solution.

Most issues with this need an aspirin not brain surgery the key is to trouble shoot, diagnose and repair. (Complaint, Cause, Correction)

[Va68goat]

"QUICK-SILVER",
I agree...No matter what the idle is doing, no matter what carb was used, the knocking was always present.

ta man,
No difference in the spark plugs. All of them look the same.

STEELCITYFIREBIRD,
Yes, the pictures of the heads and pistons were from an earlier diagnosis but theres only been about 40 miles drive time put on the heads since the heads were reinstalled. So I assume they look similar to what it looked then. At the time, Paul and I were still communicating and we discussed having the heads inspected. He suggested that we go ahead and have someone check them out. The heads were taken to a local machine shop that has been around for many years. In matter of fact, the guy that Jeff has looking at my motor has known the brothers at this machine shop and built motors with them for over 20 years. The name of the place is C&C Auto Performance http://www.ccautoperf.com

Paul spoke with the machinist at C&C to ensure everyone was on the same page. The recent vacuum leak was located on the passenger side around #6 or #8. The only reason I kept the dyno failure quiet was because Paul felt bad about it and I didn't want to embarrass him. Honesty, I didn't want to make him mad by sharing the dyno failure because he had my motor and I wanted him working on it while him and I were on good terms. Since I first received the knocking motor, not one part was switched out, not one test was done without going through Paul. Paul would give us a list of things to check and replace and we would do it. Nothing was done to this motor without him knowing it, agreeing with it or suggesting it. I can see how difficult this could be for Paul and Jeff. Paul says he has built hundreds of motors without a problem. None of us want to be in this situation but at this point there is no getting around it. Jeff found a good guy to look at this motor and Paul has been communicating with him. My only concern is that there has been over 165 hours of diagnosing problems that could be a result of something overlooked while installing the motor. There hasn't been too much that was incorrect other than the vacuum leak that was discovered when the motor recently was delivered. I certainly do appreciate Jeff finding a local guy that can look at the motor and the fact that Paul is communicating with him. I think we have reached a point though where this motor needs to be thoroughly inspected internally.

Paul E,
Since the motor was first discovered to be knocking, I have followed Pauls plan to diagnose the motor and replaced the parts that he thought should be replaced. I even paid to have the heads inspected after he suggested it. I agree with the oil analysis and I can get that done. I didn't have a chance to cut the filter open today but it will get done. As for the fuel change, I will leave that up to Paul, Jeff and the guy they have looking at my motor. As I said before we have 165 hours of diagnosing and we're no closer to locating the knock. The only common denominator with the few guys that have worked on this motor is that none of them have inspected the bottom end of this motor to include the guy that they have looking at it now.

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

I say the next step would be running this engine on a test stand with mufflers. No knock, something chasis related. Still knocks, engine must be gone through by a third party machinist and builder at the expense of the original builder.

[Va68goat]

72LuxuryLeMansLa,
I wish I had access to a test stand. That would be ideal!

[NeighborsComplaint]

You're going to have to bite bullet. You will have to pull the motor and test it to the point of disassembly and inspection. If you do the work yourself, the burden of proof will be on you. If you take it to an "expert", his experience will carry more weight in any future negotiation with the builder.

[chiphead]

I don't think you can put much stock in what the piston crowns and chambers look like. This is a high performance engine that's done nothing but idle for 2 years. It's had all 12 disciples, every street preacher and the ghost of Wolfman Jack laying on of hands and twisting the knobs trying to exorcise the demon.
It's going to show carbon build up. But it is good to notice it is happening, as continued prolonged idling while d!cking with it is going to carbon the engine up enough to cause other issues.

How deep a dive is this shop going to do? Out and apart?

[ponjohn]

If you don't have an engine run stand, I would consider removing the motor mounts and placing wood between the block and the frame. This will certainly isolate but not stress the block.

[Va68goat]

NeighborsComplaint,
I have a felling that the motor is going to come out. At this point, I just don't know by whom.

chiphead,
A few guys have worked on the motor. None of them did anything that wasn't instructed by Paul or approved by Paul. The guys that have worked on the motor are all experienced car guys (25+ years of experience). I don't know how far their guy is going with the motor. He's doing some more diagnosing that Paul has suggested.

ponjohn,
Thats a consideration. The machine shop that inspected the heads has a dyno and I believe they have a test stand. That may be an option for the guy that Paul and Jeff have looking at my motor.

[HWYSTR455]

I honestly can't see what removing the engine mounts and setting the engine on wood would help?


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