Pontiac - Race The next Level

          
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 04-21-2024, 04:02 PM
Dragncar Dragncar is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Humbolt County California
Posts: 8,384
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Corcoran View Post
Drilling plug to lubricate distributor gear
I have found the OEM 5/16 square head plugs are not as hard as a modern Allen head plugs.
So I drilled them with a 1/8" bit almost all the way. Then finished it off with a .030-.040 drill bit.
Some guys just drill a brass plug. But I am afraid to. If it strips out down in that hole you have a problem.
Steel, I have drilled a hole, heated and shrunk them and they came out. One I had to cut out with a torch.

  #102  
Old 04-21-2024, 08:16 PM
slowbird's Avatar
slowbird slowbird is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Montgomery, IL
Posts: 10,659
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Corcoran View Post
Prior to installing the rear main seal I checked the crankshaft rotational torque and the end play. I installed the crank and torqued all the caps. It took 7.5 inch pounds to get the crank to turn and slightly less running torque.
Just to clarify you got 7.5lbs to turn off just the crank?

  #103  
Old 05-24-2024, 11:20 AM
Tim Corcoran's Avatar
Tim Corcoran Tim Corcoran is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Willow Spring, North Carolina
Posts: 4,742
Default

Yes 7.5 inch pounds to turn the crank

__________________
Tim Corcoran
  #104  
Old 05-24-2024, 12:21 PM
Tim Corcoran's Avatar
Tim Corcoran Tim Corcoran is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Willow Spring, North Carolina
Posts: 4,742
Default

I have been out of the country on a long term business trip and now getting back to finishing this engine up. I am currently file fitting the rings. I have Total Seal classic style rings. The instructions specify ring gap for the top and second ring to be the bore size X .0045. In my case bore is 4.181 this works out to be .019. This is for a naturally aspirated engine, if using N20 or boost the gap is increased per the chart. If using hypereutectic pistons you need to follow the piston manufactures instructions for the gap. Many engines have been ruined by using too small of a gap with hypereutectic pistons. It's important to note too small of a gap can cause severe engine damage so always lean towards a larger gap as a few thousands more gap won't hurt performance. For the oil rail spec is .015 minimum. In my case I did not need to file them. I did check every oil rail ring and they all had more than .020 gap. Even though the instructions specified the same gap for the top and second ring I gapped the second ring around .003 larger than the top ring. I ended up with .019-.020 on the top ring and .0023-.0024 on the second ring. Some believe the gap on the second ring should always be larger than the top ring. The reason is if gas get trapped between the rings it may cause ring flutter at RPM. A hand rotating file device (see photo) is all that is needed and not expensive at all. When filing always turn the grinding wheel towards the front side of the ring. The rings for each piston need to be matched to a specific cylinder bore so mark the top of the pistons with a sharpie to make sure. I filed each set then installed them on the correct piston one at a time. The ring gap is measured at approximately one inch down in the bore and the ring must be squared up. I did this with an old piston to push the ring down into the bore. You can not be in a hurry during this process. Place the ring in the bore, measure the gap, file a little at a time then check then repeat etc. Make sure your cuts are only on one side of the ring and you maintain a square edge. You can check this by holding the ring gap closed in your hand and viewing it at the light. If it's not square you can correct it when you file to size. Before you install the pistons into the bore the orientation of the rings is very important. The rings came with instruction on how to orient each ring on the piston. Make sure you have plenty of light when filing the rings. After all rings are properly gapped I will move on to hanging the pistons on the rods.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Rings 1.jpg
Views:	49
Size:	63.7 KB
ID:	634207   Click image for larger version

Name:	Rings 2.jpg
Views:	46
Size:	67.7 KB
ID:	634208   Click image for larger version

Name:	Rings 3.jpg
Views:	50
Size:	76.6 KB
ID:	634209   Click image for larger version

Name:	Rings 4.jpg
Views:	43
Size:	50.4 KB
ID:	634212   Click image for larger version

Name:	Rings 6.jpg
Views:	44
Size:	60.6 KB
ID:	634213  


__________________
Tim Corcoran
The Following User Says Thank You to Tim Corcoran For This Useful Post:
  #105  
Old 05-24-2024, 12:33 PM
Tim Corcoran's Avatar
Tim Corcoran Tim Corcoran is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Willow Spring, North Carolina
Posts: 4,742
Default

More photos
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Rings 7.jpg
Views:	36
Size:	63.1 KB
ID:	634214   Click image for larger version

Name:	Rings 8.jpg
Views:	37
Size:	76.3 KB
ID:	634215   Click image for larger version

Name:	Rings 9.jpg
Views:	35
Size:	106.0 KB
ID:	634216  

__________________
Tim Corcoran
  #106  
Old 05-24-2024, 02:11 PM
HWYSTR455's Avatar
HWYSTR455 HWYSTR455 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Manassas, VA
Posts: 14,802
Default

Great job explaining the process, kudos!

I tried to tell folks to go bigger on the gaps but so many think there will be blow-by or loss of power, which is totally not the case unless you go REAL big, compared to the specs anyway. Like .010 or more. I just usually recommend going to the 1st spec for spray and you can use the same gap on top & 2nd. Personally, I usually go to the 2nd step of N2O spec.

The ring 'flutter' I believe only occurs at extended high RPM was my understanding but doubt it's a problem/concern for most here, unless in competition. Great to bring it up though for sure!

Most top & 2nd rings have a mark on them, a dimple or color, that denoted top and 2nd, for ease of identification, and the mark should always face up towards the top of the bore.

For deburring after cutting rings a small, fine honing stone can be used, which is generally safer than a file, even a fine one.

Mm, sorry about the brain dump!

.

__________________
.

1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger
Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be
  #107  
Old 05-24-2024, 03:46 PM
Tim Corcoran's Avatar
Tim Corcoran Tim Corcoran is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Willow Spring, North Carolina
Posts: 4,742
Default

Thanks for the comments I see I forgot to cover those important points. My rings had a dimple on the second ring and some etching with the ring size on the top ring. Instructions said the etching and dimple goes up. And yes, there is a burr that needs to be removed after filing the ring. Remove the burr with a small stone or a small Jewelers file on the top and bottom of the ring where it was filed and a small burr on the inside surface you can feel it with your finger. I have used a stone and jewelers file both with success.

__________________
Tim Corcoran
  #108  
Old 05-25-2024, 08:04 AM
firechickenman's Avatar
firechickenman firechickenman is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Savannah, MO
Posts: 1,191
Default

Great write-up on ring fitting! That process is very fresh in my memory since that was my project for last Wednesday evening. Sounds like we have the same system for fitting rings!

__________________
'68 Firebird

463/pump gas/SD 325 E-heads/266-272 SR cam/1050 Dominator/3.73/ET Street Radials/1.37 60'/6.30@108.80/9.93@135.14

Hot Rod Drag Week finishing averages:
2014 - 11.12 @ 118.56
2015 - 10.84 @ 124.97
2016 - 10.56 @ 127.88
2017 - 10.29 @ 130.74
2018 - 10.29 @ 130.53
2019 - 10.16 @ 132.34
2021 - 10.09 @ 132.69
2022 - 10.13 @ 133.07

9.93 run - https://youtu.be/hII0_UlYM4U

  #109  
Old 05-25-2024, 02:43 PM
Dragncar Dragncar is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Humbolt County California
Posts: 8,384
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HWYSTR455 View Post
Great job explaining the process, kudos!

I tried to tell folks to go bigger on the gaps but so many think there will be blow-by or loss of power, which is totally not the case unless you go REAL big, compared to the specs anyway. Like .010 or more. I just usually recommend going to the 1st spec for spray and you can use the same gap on top & 2nd. Personally, I usually go to the 2nd step of N2O spec.

The ring 'flutter' I believe only occurs at extended high RPM was my understanding but doubt it's a problem/concern for most here, unless in competition. Great to bring it up though for sure!

Most top & 2nd rings have a mark on them, a dimple or color, that denoted top and 2nd, for ease of identification, and the mark should always face up towards the top of the bore.

For deburring after cutting rings a small, fine honing stone can be used, which is generally safer than a file, even a fine one.

Mm, sorry about the brain dump!

.
I know some of the specs for one of the greatest Pontiac NA builds ever. It had .050 on the bottom ring.

  #110  
Old 05-25-2024, 11:06 PM
Tim Corcoran's Avatar
Tim Corcoran Tim Corcoran is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Willow Spring, North Carolina
Posts: 4,742
Default

After file fitting the rings I moved on to hanging the pistons on the rods and installing the rods and pistons into the engine. An important item to be extra careful with. The rods have a chamfer on one side. Make sure you have the chamfer side of the rod against the radius side of the rod journal. Two rods on a rod journal, the chamfer side goes against the crank and the two rods but up on the flat sides. Make sure the valve reliefs in the pistons are up and towards the center of the engine. If there are two valve there is usually a notch or arrow something to indicate the orientation. When you attach the rod to the piston check the orientation to make sure you got it right. Installation of the spiro locks can be challenging if it's your first time. The thing that helps the most is stretching out the spring before assembly (see photo). Every engine builder develops their own method of installing these just make sure you got the piston on the rod correctly or you will be removing them to turn the rod around and getting them out is even more of a challenge. I use a small flat screwdriver to help push the lock in place. Remember there are 4 per piston, count them before you start and make sure you have 32. Then pull four out at a time stretch them out and install them. Install two on one side of the piston then lube the rod bushing the piston and the wrist pin with engine oil. Next install the wrist pin through the piston and rod then install the other two spiro locks. The last thing you do before dropping the piston in the hole is make sure the rings are oriented on the pistons per the diagram that comes with the rings. Now is a good time to double check you have your dot or other marking on the rings up per the instructions. I draw an arrow indicating the front of the engine on top of the piston with a sharpie to make sure I don't get confused when lining up the rings. Every ring has a correct position including the upper, lower and expander oil rings. I use an aluminum adjustable ring compressor to guide the piston in while holding the rings in place. This is not a one size fits all tool, it has a range of bore sizes it works on. Again when dropping in the piston double check the piston is on the rod correctly where the radius on the rod goes against the radius of the journal. The ring compressor is tapered to compress the rings as the piston is lowered into the cylinder. Make sure you have the rod bearings installed correct. They are marked upper and lower. Don't forget the engine is upside down the upper goes on the rod and the lower goes on the cap. Make sure your piston skirt is lubed with motor oil and your rod bearing is coated with your favorite engine assembly lube or motor oil. I lightly coat the cylinder wall with motor oil then wipe it off before dropping the piston in. I know others have their own preference, automatic transmission fluid etc. but I use motor oil. Some say to put oil all over the rings so the ring lands are covered others say leave the rings dry or the rings won't seat. Make sure you at least put motor oil on the skirts. If the ring compressor is too loose the rings will catch on the top of the deck, don't apply a lot of force or you can damage the rings. I use the handle side of a deal blow hammer to lightly tap the piston down. If the ring compressor is too tight the piston will get stuck in the tool. Trial and error here take your time and don't use too much force. Another thing I do is rotate the crank to position the rod journal fully down so the rod won't hit anything as your installing the piston. After the piston is at deck level you can get the ring compressor out of the way and slowly tap the piston down while carefully guiding the rod into position with your other hand. Once the rod is seated on the journal flip the engine over install the cap make sure you lube the bearing, then move on to the next cylinder. Make sure you apply the correct lubricant to your fasteners. In my case I applied ARP moly lube to the bolt threads, under the head of the bolt and at the cap where the bolt seats. I just install them hand tight with a wrench. After all pistons are installed I torque them all down in three steps. then I go back and check every rod a second time to make sure I didn't miss one. Then I check the main caps one more time to make sure they are all torqued to spec.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Pistons 1.jpg
Views:	22
Size:	46.3 KB
ID:	634295   Click image for larger version

Name:	Pistons 2.jpg
Views:	25
Size:	65.5 KB
ID:	634296   Click image for larger version

Name:	Pistons 4.jpg
Views:	27
Size:	90.3 KB
ID:	634297   Click image for larger version

Name:	Pistons 5.jpg
Views:	19
Size:	76.3 KB
ID:	634298   Click image for larger version

Name:	Pistons 6.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	45.1 KB
ID:	634299  


__________________
Tim Corcoran
  #111  
Old 05-25-2024, 11:08 PM
Tim Corcoran's Avatar
Tim Corcoran Tim Corcoran is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Willow Spring, North Carolina
Posts: 4,742
Default

More photos
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Pistons 7.jpg
Views:	29
Size:	46.3 KB
ID:	634300   Click image for larger version

Name:	Pistons 8.jpg
Views:	39
Size:	53.1 KB
ID:	634301  

__________________
Tim Corcoran
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:12 AM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




Copyright © 2017