[HWYSTR455]

TransAm525 - Ah, got it, had to mod the 70-up bracket, makes sense, since it's (CS130) smaller/closer between the two mounting points. Not an issue for me, since I run '69 brackets across the board on all my cars, which uses the 'floating strap'. Wonder if one could cut the entire strap area off the 70-up bracket and use a floater?

One-wires, I've heard conflicting reports on one-wires, and some believe that they shouldn't be used. I've seen many use them though, and don't seem to have any problems. As for below 1000 RPM, that's the speed to excite the alt to charge. Regular 2 & 3 wire alts can charge as low as 450 RPM, which is why I chose not to go one-wire. Again, the output at idle is one consideration I had for my app.

TransAmrit- I think you could easily get away with a 10si 100 amp model, and they do make 10si 140 amps too. That avoids the whole mounting issue.

[BILTIT]

Why not go 12si? I swapped in a 100A 12si, they have better cooling than the 10si and a direct swap.

[HWYSTR455]

12si is physically larger, not sure if it's a direct swap or not in those brackets. Are you sure they swap right out?

[george kujanski]

go to http://www.delcoremy.com/LiteratureD.../SpecGuide.pdf

to see the dimensions of both the 10Si and the 12Si. you'll see they are the same dimensionally.

The Delco site also has good info regarding charging systems......from the folks who have been making them for over 55years.

George

[BILTIT]

The 12SI is the exact same size as a 10SI and a dorect bolt in with higher amperage ratings.

You are thinking of a 15/27SI?

http://www.madelectrical.com/electri...elcoremy.shtml

[BILTIT]

George beat me too it.

[Don 79 TA]

I have the ice berg alt in her 88 formula, and it's a nice piece, great low speed charging, and the alt runs cools

the CS130 alts are really pieces of crap, they burn out fast, hence the reason for the CS140's plus the benefits of the low speed charging

there was a place that has CS140's that pump out over 200apms, and can get more than that if needed, however i don't remember who it was. they told me they could practically get the CS140 to drop in place of the 12si i have now.

the other thought, is run a smaller pulley to speed up the alt at lower rpm's, but of course this could lead to burn out too,

don't forget using proper sized cables to, that alone makes a massive difference.

http://www.nationsautoelectric.com/gmcs144.html
http://www.highoutputalternator.com/index.htm
http://www.alternatorparts.com/Extre...144%20type.htm
http://www.excessiveamperage.com/
http://www.4alterstart.com/chromealternators/

[gtofreek]

HWYSTR455, I agree with you 100% on the not charging your battery with the alternator. Having worked in the alternator business for 11+ years, I can tell you this, people using there alternators to charge their batteries up sure helped to keep us in business. Maybe when the alternators are brand new, as in Georges case, they will hold up better but when they are many years old, charging a battery is the worst thing you can do to an alternator.

George, I know we have had this argument many times before, so I'm not looking to re-visit that, but I will stick to my guns on this one. I'm not taking anything away from your experience[as you seem to have lot's in this field], but I will say this, your experience seems to be all in a testing facility, with new parts and pieces, not in the real world in real working conditions. I worked in this field for a long time and have seen literally hundreds of fried alternators from people trying to charge their batteries with them. One should always use a charger whenever possible. Plus a slow charge is better for batteries than a fast charge is. Sure there will be cases when charging the battery is just not an option so in these cases you need to do what you need to do, but just keep in mind what could happen to the alternator if you do have to use it to charge the battery.

HwyStr455, I also agree with pretty much everything you said in your first post. Pretty much right on the money!

Also, I feel the 10 SI and 12 SI's are much better alternators than the CS series. As HwyStr455 said, they have a serious problem with heat, especially the rear bearing. It is held in the rear housing with a crinkle spacer that is not contacting the bearing or alternator case all the way around. Matter of fact, there is only maybe 40% or less contact area between them so the bearing cannot get rid of it's heat and burns up. These things almost always fail from rear bearing failure which then in turn allows the rotor to rub on the stator and ruin it. The other internals of the CS series alternators are not as good as the older 10 & 12 SI's either, IMO. We started filling the air pockets in the rear bearing crinkle spacer with heat transfer compound to help it get rid of heat. This helped out significantly.

[HWYSTR455]

Hm, guess I need to rethink my approach, and will have to try a 12si this time. Delco makes a 94 amp, which is going to place me in the 80% duty cycle range, but may be better off than a CS model. Now I just need to source a new Delco!

I honestly thought the 12si is larger than the 10si, must have been thinking of the 144 or something! Eh, ok, I admit, MAYBE it's an age thing! Heh-heh!

[HWYSTR455]

What are the Denso alts like for performance and durability?

.

[george kujanski]

This discussion is a bit off topic, but an alternator design is tested for
reliability under "real world conditions" as close as possible. Those conditions
include high ambient temperatures and a speed/output profile that causes max
internal heating. We qualified designs in this manner with many internal
thermocouples on the stator, diode heat sinks, diodes themselves, etc. the
design must not only survive, but also the temperatures need to be below design
limits, such as the wire insulation temperatures.

Alts are designed to withstand the above conditions and also charge low
batteries, such as would happen after a jump start after a battery drain.

OEM's cannot take a risk of using a design that reliably would fail after such a
charging scenario. The warranty cost for millions of units over 55 years would
put them and Delco out of business. No owner's manual or service manual I've
seen mentions the NECESSITY to bench charge a low battery before using in a car.
IF that was the case, I would suspect all cars would be shipped with an
additional charger in the trunk.

Freek: you say a lot of your failed units are "fried", to me indicating
overtemperature failure... what evidence do you typically see in those units
when disassembled?

It's an individual choice, and bench charging first certainly will do no damage
to a battery....unless the owner is a moron and connects it backwards, etc., but
I'm here to say: have no fear in using an alternator to charge a low battery,
assuming the charging system is a OEM design and in good working order to start
with.

I stake my reputation as an engineer on it and proudly have a Motorola prototype
alt on my 455 GTO, which ends up charging my battery quite often in exactly the
scenario mentioned.

George

[HWYSTR455]

Are batteries tested for charge before installation on an assembly line? Would that be QA for the 'battery department'? They don't jump start them at the end of the line, do they? I know that Interstate lead-acid batteries used to ship dry. No way do they have any charge when they're filled. Like I mentioned too on the Optimas & Oddessy batts, their' instructions specifically state that they be 'properly' charged prior to installation, or the warranty is voided.

I'm just being objective, hope you don't think I'm being combative, totally respect you George. I'm an engineer too!

When it comes to CS alts, for example, the CS130 D, does the D stand for 'Denso'? As in Nippendenso? I'm guessing Delco farms that out? Still would like to know how these perform, the Densos and Hitachis.

[george kujanski]

I don't have any answers regarding the battery questions. I've been away from the charging systems biz since B4 the Denso and Hitachi alts came onto the scene so I don't have any input there either.

No harm done regarding the discussions. It's always good info to hear others' experiences to help sort fact from fiction.

I just wanted to relate my personal experiences (substantiated by data) to others to offer suggesstions and possibly peace of mind regarding some of these topics.

One of my best friends is a retired mechanical engineer who I worked with in the charging system biz and I often use him for a sanity check. He has tons of experience in bearings, vibration, and thermal testing.

One challenge was to keep a 200 A truck alt from being shaken apart when mounted on a Cummins VT903...but that's another story.

George

[HWYSTR455]

Eh, the battery questions retwhoreical, and that's the kind of barrage I deal with daily times 100! I snap at the kids when I get a 'what if' statements!

I'm sick of the whole alt thing, have been struggling for what seems ever, and honeslty would spend whatever to make it go away! I haven't tried the D's, or Densos, or Hitachis, and am thinking of going that way. Look at all the places out there that sell remans and high output alts! There's got to be a bunch of people out there suffering just like me, otherewise there wouldn't be a market. It's so bad, I swear I won't go anywhere without a spare in the trunk, rediculous. And I've cooked them all, from all. PowerMaster at one point stopped giving me the time of day when calling on warranty.

Bosch makes new alts with what looks like a Denso/Hitachi housing, and they list replacement models for CS130 alt for GM cars. I may try going that route....

http://www.boschautoparts.com/Produc...lternators.htm

.

[HWYSTR455]

Ok, I'm going to take a whack at a new Bosch, they're like $150 from NAPA. It's supposed to be a direct replacement for the CS130, # AL533N, so will let all know my experience....

[george kujanski]

Back in the day, Bosch made good stuff, and their alternator was a good design with a lot of innovative thinking. I've heard they make a version to replace the GM alt.

Back in the design days, we could make a version that would provide a lot of output in a given frame size, but the downside was low output at low RPM and/or not enuf cooling from the fan. Those are the tradeoffs. That's why I'm suspicious when I see a claim of 140 amps in a 10SI frame size. You don't get something for nothing.

The alt with the best cooling I've seen was the Mopar alt. They probably had larger models with greater output than 60 amps or so, but as I've said, I've been out of the biz for awhile.

George

[george kujanski]

A member here, Stellar, is in the alt biz, perhaps he has a suggestion of an alt that'll do the job.

George

[PontiacMatt72]

Reviving this old thread…

It’s been 15 years, what’s the stance now days regarding alternators? 12si vs CS130?

HWYSTR455, how’d the Bosch unit hold up?

Any updated info regarding a simple replacement that outputs ~100-120 amps *reliably*? (With a v-belt pulley)

[chiphead]

105A CS130 here. Works great with electric fans and low RPM. They are available with a V-belt pulley and the correct clocking if you know the correct year(s) to look for. You can even retain the stock charging light in the dash, it'll work. The nice thing about the CS130s is they make a lot of amps at low RPM, they were some of the first alternators designed for cars with OD.

The bolts are metric and the bottom hole is bit larger than the 3/8-16 bolt used on our engines. You need a spacer inside the mounting ear to take up the space. There are also two different widths between the mounting ears, one is too narrow for our use and one is just right. I think the measurements were 6.0" and 6.125" center to center.

There was a guy here named Stellar that was really knowledgeable about them. Maybe he's still around?

[HWYSTR455]

Well, with the OE brackets and V belts, my personal recommendation would be a powermaster 12si, which comes in the 100 or 150 amps. I've been able to get the belts to last with the 150s, but it is a little bit of a dance.

Pretty sure I've mentioned it on other posts, but my specific issue(s) was due to having high amp loads that cycled on-off-on-off a lot while driving, which the alts just can't handle for long. For me, it was a combo of elec fans, off-road halogen headlights, elec ignition stuff, and stereo equip.

Belt issues kind of went hand in hand with the on-off-on-off cycling, the load/unload on the belts was a toll, as well as potentially overtightend belts.

The solution for burning up the bridges was to add a stereo cap, which 'absorbed' most of the electric 'shock' loads. It was enough to where I was getting good use out of the 12si ones I was using.

The Bosch gave up the ghost pretty quick, sadly.

Now I'm pretty much exclusively using serp conversion setups, so belt slip is no longer an issue. I have a 200a (AD230?) on the judge, made for Billet Specialties by Powermaster, and a smooth case one for the March setup on the 442. The same alt will go on the T/A with a March setup, smooth case 12si.


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