[HWYSTR455]

Put my hands all over that engine, it's not directly striking the pan, valley, or valve covers, or it's too difficult to tell.

And yes, I've been thinking ignition too, which is something that needs to be checked. My thoughts are plug wires might be swapped, I personally haven't checked that yet.

If you listen to a couple of the vids that are from the back of the car, you can hear a miss.

Vacuum can isn't hooked up at the moment, and a random vacuum line is accidentally plugged into the ported source on the carb. But that line is blocked, so shouldn't matter.

.

[Formulajones]

I slight miss or sputter at the exhaust when idling can also be an indication of too much timing.

To me it just sounds like a timing issue. I highly doubt there is anything inside the engine causing a problem.

If the vacuum advance is unplugged, I'd check initial, make sure that hasn't moved, and try backing that down several degrees and see if that noise goes away. That just sounds like pre ignition to me, and I've had engines do that when vacuum advance is thrown into the mix and adding too much initial timing, but they would run and drive just fine because under certain throttle conditions and loads there isn't as much vacuum and less vacuum advance, and you would never hear the noise. Stop and idle and noise was present, unplugged vacuum advance and like magic, noise gone.

I'm going to bet it's something simple.

[HWYSTR455]

That would be nice, and I would feel more stupid than usual if it were something that simple that I didn't check.

I too in the past have had a similar issue where I had 2 wires swapped. I had put those wire identifiers on the wires, and mixed 2 up. Kept scratching my head until I ignored the markers, and discovered I had 2 swapped. Uhg.

I mentioned checking the order earlier this week, on initial check got an ok on that, but like I said, I personally haven't looked at it. Will comment on checking the timing too.

.

[ponchjoe]

That second video sounds like my HFTs (Hylifts) before they pump up. It also runs rough like yours until they do. I would pull the top off and inspect lifters

[Va68goat]

Thank you all for chiming in. All this is helpful and I'm hopeful that it's not something serious enough where I would have to pull the motor. Hopefully HWYSTR455 and I will find something that can easily be addressed.

[Va68goat]

On Pauls recommendation, we did some more testing today. We verified the firing order and it was all correct. We unplugged and reconnected each plug one by one to see if the knocking would stop..It continued. The knocking noise has not changed and is the same sound as it was when I first heard the motor. It hasn't gotten worse or better.

Paul also asked us to check the timing but we couldnt get an accurate reading because the timing light was damaged and was not reading accurately. Apparently one of the wires to the light was cut.

Saga continues!

[Va68goat]

It's been about 2 weeks since we discovered the actual problem but just getting around to posting some pictures. Let me first say that Paul and Jeff have been great throughout this whole thing. I'm pretty new to cars but someone recently said something that made a lot of sense. "Builders make mistakes. The difference between a good builder and a horrible builder is how they handle their mistakes."

Paul and Jeff have been great. Every time I called or sent Paul a text, he immediately responded. Paul gave me a list of things to diagnose so I wouldn't have to pull the motor. It turns out that I needed to pull the motor for further inspection. (I had guys here that know what they're doing).

You can see the witness marks on the stock windage tray that it was being hit at two different locations. It was barely making contact but just enough to make the knocking noise. The 3rd picture is of the spacing(washers) that was used for clearance. Since it just needed a little more clearance, I ordered the spacer kit from Butlers Performance. The thinkness of the spacer was just a little more than stacking 2 washers. We did have to do a little fabrication because the holes on the spacers were not lining up. We had to drill out the spacers.

We were able to get the motor installed in the same day we pulled it, started it up and the noise went away. Because we originally thought that the rockers were the problem, I purchased Crower 1.65 rockers. Looks like I'm getting a little lifter noise now but we'll get those adjusted soon.

I can't tell you enough about Paul and Jeff. They are stand up guys and backed their work. It sure was a pain to live in Virginia but have a motor built in Arizona but I would definitely go through Paul again. They made things right by me. I won't say how they made it up to me but believe me, I'm a satisfied customer. If Paul wants to comment on that..he can, but they did make it right.

Don't hesitate to go through Paul for a build. He's genuinely a nice guy and damn good at what he does.

[cnc]

Good to hear/see it really was something simple....AND great set of friends to help u out as well with pulling and reinstalling same day.......now get out there and let's REALLY hear what u have to say about the build
Good to hear about Paul and his business Etiquette stand up guy in my books...

[dataway]

Wow, what a shame to have a great build like that complicated by such a tiny issue. You know, a few more hours run time and the noise would have probably gone away as the parts "clearanced themselves"

Some things just don't present themselves until and engine is installed, complete exhaust system hooked up so things can be heard and drive train installed ... just no way around that.

[Va68goat]

cnc,

You're right! I'm lucky to have the friends that I do that took so much time away from their own cars to help me. So, I convinced my wife to drive the GTO to the store with me. She drove like a 90 year old lady so I decided that I would drive home. Here is a sample of that drive home that ended with a punch to the leg..Hahahaha. She's a good sport and was only mad for an hour! Hahahaha.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKacIUNvGQw

dataway,

Someone did mention that it may just clear itself but it sounded bad and I was kind of embarrassing to deal with that noise. I'm glad I just got it done and over with. Now I need to just get the rockers adjusted and it should be good to go.

[chiphead]

Yeah you don't want let that continue. A good way to crack a windage tray or vibrate it so bad that it comes loose. You're really lucky it just kissed it but didn't actually grab and fling into the crank. That would have been gnarly.

Hats off to all involved for handling it in a professional manner and getting it done.

Going through this right now on my 434 build. The milodon tray provides a good line of sight all the way down the bottom of the rod throws, so I can see if I've got clearance.

What should minimum clearance on a windage tray be?

[Torquewar]

Long road to get the issue resolved but its fantastic that there are great guys to help out and figure this out.
Good effort to remove and replace that engine.
Go have fun with it....

[Cliff R]

"What should minimum clearance on a windage tray be?"

In theory you just need enough so it doesn't hit as the rods are unlikely to grow or tray move around. Pretty difficult thing to measure as it's typically hitting in a spot difficult to get at with any measuring device.

I've ran into clearance issues many times with stroker set-ups, and simply gently bolt the tray down w/o any washers then turn the engine thru and see if it hits. If it does I'll add hardened washers until it doesn't. Problem is that if you start shimming it up pretty high it may hit some baffled pans.

We actually quit using factory trays a few years back when we went back into a full race engine here and found it had cracked almost completely in two! Found the "tac" welded oil pump pickup in the bottom of the deep pan on the same build, so we went back to making a strap for them and MIG welding it in place like we used to do. A few extra minutes spent but certainly better than having the pick-up break off a piece of the pump and end up in the bottom of the pan....or worse!.......Cliff

[chiphead]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"What should minimum clearance on a windage tray be?"

In theory you just need enough so it doesn't hit as the rods are unlikely to grow or tray move around. Pretty difficult thing to measure as it's typically hitting in a spot difficult to get at with any measuring device....snip....

On the milodon tray you can see front to back under the tray, there is no "step" like the stock type tray that hides what is going on. I think last time I used .090", which is about the diameter of a wire coat hanger. I made sure the coat hanger would fit between the rod bolt and the louver on the tray, with rod near BDC.

Just asking in case there is new thinking on this. Would running it closer have any benefit to oil control?

[HWYSTR455]

I doubt it would have any noticeable improvement or difference when making small changes, like under .050 increments. And obviously, once you go beyond a certain amount, the effect will be zero since it won't be close enough to effect windage.

With the crank and rods swinging past the tray, even at a 1/4", it would create a type of windage at only a few 1000 RPM, and strip much of whatever is clinging to the rotating assembly.

I think I started a thread on this some years ago, and know that Milodon says a minimum of 1/8" clearance from any moving part. For the louvered type trays, it doesn't have to be right against the rotating assembly to provide results, and the mesh type work with even more clearance.

Crank scrapers need to be a little closer, and those take time to clearance. But, with those, it's a formula to calculate the clearance, and bearing clearances are part of that formula/calculation, as it RPM, rod and crank material, etc.

Long story short, on a street driven engine, the recommendation of a general 1/8" minimum is a safe number to shoot for. Maybe even pad it a little, maybe another .025 ( .125 - .150 or so).

.

[Va68goat]

Since identifying and repairing the knocking noise which was the spacing of the windage tray, we noticed a ticking noise. Weeks before we fixed the spacing of the windage tray we thought the knocking noise was coming from the rockers so we replaced the rockers.

We checked the adjustment of the rockers yesterday and they were fine. While we had the valve covers off, we ran the motor for a little while. I really dont know much about cars but my buddy mentioned something that I thought was interesting and I would like to hear some opinions. In this video you can see that there is plenty of oil flow on the right hand side but there seems to be not as much on the left side. You cant really hear the ticking noise in the video but when we put the valve cover on you can. My buddy feels there's a blockage of oil which is preventing a consistant flow of oil. There are no witness Mark's on the valve covers. What do you guys think? Is it supposed to look like this?


https://youtu.be/KAwSYevxsb4

Ticking:
https://youtu.be/G1hXVsu577c

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Right/passengers side is at the end of the line for Pontiac oiling. Pressure starts at the back and comes forward through left/drivers side lifter oil gallery. Then crosses over at the front main bearing to send oil to right/passengers side lifter oil gallery. Left side has the feed holes/passages that supply oil to the crank and cam. Right side only does lifters and corresponding valve train parts on that side.

Think we need a better/longer running video of the tapping noise. Need to hear what the tap sounds like with a quick blip and let off of the throttle. NOT reved up just a quick blip and let off a few times.

Thing sounds like it's not running as good as it was in the earlier videos. Watching the oiling video it may have just been cold though if the engine wasn't up to temp in the tap video.

#'s good 24/7 if needed
Clay

[Va68goat]

Hey Clay,

Thanks for responding. I'm hoping to work on the car with my buddy tomorrow to see if we can isolate the ticking noise. I will take a longer video of the car running before we start working on it. It's pretty frustrating because this appears to be the same noise it had with the other rockers on the car. A few of my friends that have been working on my car seem to believe that it's a bad lifter. You know that my car experience is very limited but after looking at some videos, it sure sounds like a bad lifter.

I'm tired of standing outside the car and taking pictures. I need some drive time! I'll call you this weekend if I have any questions! Thanks again Clay!

[chiphead]

I'm not worried about the amount of oil at the rockers. you have to let it run longer cuz it really does take a long time for oil to work its way down to the end of the Galley and out the pushrods on the passenger side.

How does oil pressure look? Still where it always has been? A galley plug come loose would show up as very low oil pressure.

Check valve train adjustment again before you do anything else. Finding a "bad" lifter is kind of difficult unless the plunger is actually collapsed and stuck down at the bottom of the travel with the push rod removed.

A "bad" lifter that isn't collapsed can still have its preload set, but it won't pump up and take the slack out properly when running. So it doesn't actually make noise until the engine starts up. That's why you have to set the valve train preload properly, then crank it up and find the loud rocker.

[TedRamAirII]

Seems if you could slow down the idle somewhat, and get your hand with a towel on each rocker, you should be able to put pressure on a rocker and find which one is the noisy culprit.