[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by John V.

Tom, you've made my day. Multiple interesting posts. Another book on my list to hunt for. I won't ask who possesses it, but can you divulge anything about the condition of the Blue car? Did/does it retain the 421 that was seen in it during the PHR Bobcat How To article? Was it kept as a collectible or used as an ordinary transportation car? Has it purposely been kept out of public view or just for lack of interest?

I was told: "It is the BLUE CAR."
"It was built before the Red Car"
"It had a 421 before the RED Car", (as you know)
"It was used for testing like the Red Car" (which it was)
(and I was sworn to secrecy about the rest of it including what happened to it, the owner, and where it is today.)

Tenny knows most of it too I am sure thru Wangers and a few others.

Mr Sherman, sitting around the Pontiac Headquarters Car Show, had a lot of great info on both cars. May he rest in peace. He did not confirm the car was alive, the owner did).

Tom V.

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I was told: "It is the BLUE CAR."
"It was built before the Red Car"
"It had a 421 before the RED Car", (as you know)
"It was used for testing like the Red Car" (which it was)
(and I was sworn to secrecy about the rest of it including what happened to it, the owner, and where it is today.)

Tenny knows most of it too I am sure thru Wangers and a few others.

What I know from Jim Wangers, Tom, is that the Blue Car was indeed built before the Red Car - that it was assembled as a "Pilot Car" used to sell the GTO program internally. He selected it for Car and Driver because of the care that went into fit and finish. Per Jim, it didn't have a 421 and was crushed by the factory subsequent to the Car and Driver test.

Cool to consider it's hidden away somewhere, though!

Wonder if anyone has checked-in with Jim Mattison re: the Blue Car. In addition to the PHS library, he's a pretty alert historian of the brand, as well as an astute collector. Could be he'd have tracked-down a detail or two, not to mention any paperwork that may exist, at this point?

Always fun to kick this stuff around ...!

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=691075

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=706920

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=725571

[Tom Vaught]

Back on Keith's comment about "tagged cars"

It was a very common practice for some employees to get "Brass Hat" vehicles after the "Shooter" was assigned his new vehicle. They called that plan at my Brand X company the "B-Plan" and usually there was some discount off of the original price for the Mileage on the vehicle. Our Mileage was documented pretty well as all oil changes, maint, etc during the Execs time with the vehicle was documented and put in a file on the vehicle.

I know of a few other guys who worked for the other team on the other side of town who had 1/2 speed reducers installed in their company vehicles to keep the mileage number down. Speedos were not turned back, just the vehicle had twice the mileage it was supposed to have based on the odo. Funny story is the WIFE borrowed the execs car and went to the store. She was rolling down a street at 50 mph, was clocked by RADAR, and ticketed. (Speed limit was 25 mph on that street.) She swore to the police that she was never over 25 mph. Even took a lie detector test with her lawyer at the police station. She passed. So they dropped the ticket but inspected all future vehicles stopped by their officers. The 1/2 speed reducer was in plain site coming out of the transmission.

So the word went out that there would be a lot of negative publicity if certain vehicles were identified as having improper mileage documentation when the titles were transferred. So that little trick went away.

Tom V.

[riggsjr]

Originally Posted by War eagle

9773155 is the block casting number of the 1964 389. One would have thought that at the end of 64 production and the 65`s taking over, that would be the end of that number. I just discovered that a 64 Bonneville we are taking apart has a replacement block and proves not to assume the obvious. The 9773155 was cast on L 3 5 making it almost a 66 engine. However, giving this a bit of thought solves the question. As B-man posted, the 64 and older pontys oil thru the rocker stud. Replacement of the block requires those 64 and older oil passages. So production continued on until? At one time the 7 year requirement by manufactures to provide replacement parts was a law.

Also the block face that usually has the production sequence number and other items is void of ANYTHING. So was the car out of warentee and the owner simply bought a block? This would make the car almost two model years old. OR maybe the replacement block was installed even later, possibly until stored stock of the 9773155 was dropped altogether some 7 years later. And remember only the 64 engine was drilled for a block mounted starter, which probably could be used as a replacement block in earlier bodies as well, where the starter is bellhousing mounted.

So this is me to a tee. I have a 1965 GTO ROYAL PONTIAC car....SR 81019 block 9773155. Looks like a 64 389 correct? I was always hoping that it was a Bobcat but no proof .

[Tom Vaught]

Just because you have a replacement 389 block, how does that prove it had anything to do with being a Bobcat modded vehicle, help me out here. You don't replace the block to do a Bobcat Mod.

Tom V.

[riggsjr]

All I was saying that because it is a Royal Pontiac car and it had the SR block redone and it was probably done at Royal Pontiac that while it was there they could of or would of added the Bobcat package as they were doing the replacement engine.

[Tom Vaught]

Ok I got it.

Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

John V, Newest Issue of Hot Rod magazine, (came a few minutes ago) NOVEMBER ISSUE.

NEW 64 GTO CONVERTIBLE PHOTO I HAVE NEVER SEEN BEFORE!

Convertible with White walls, Spinners, Rear Antenna, Outside Fender Mirror, BUT the top appears dark material. License Plate 14M968 (maybe hard to tell).
But it is next to the GM High Bank Test Track corner and I have never seen a Arizona shot of the 64 in action with the Proving Ground so obvious.

Tom V.

[John V.]

Tom, I thought maybe the new pic was an "out take" from the original Hot Rod Test Report in the Dec. '63 issue.

But that car, also a convertible had the Deluxe wheel covers with the Red Lines and front fender mounted manual antenna.

Plus, they tested it at Milford, not DPG.

Don Keefe might be able to tell us where they got the pic for the current issue. The credits say Petersen Archives, Don Keefe, and Courtesy of GM Archives.

Motor Trend mentioned that they actually drove TWO convertibles for their test and the performance testing was conducted at Riverside. Their Road Test article appeared in the Jan. '64 issue.

One they called a pre-production model without the stiffer suspension components.

The one in most of the pix had a manual antenna and white top. Obviously a different car. I can't make out the exact plate no., but it looks like it is same Cal type as the one in the current Hot Rod issue but ends with "615" I think.

They don't provide any details to distinguish the 1st from the 2nd convertible, but a pic of the trunk shows a car with the Power Antenna.

I thought at first I was on to something because of the Power Antenna. Only problem, it looks like it is a lighter exterior color, not the dark color of the car in the current Hot Rod issue.

So I'm gonna guess the one in the new Hot Rod is neither of the two convertibles that Motor Trend tested.

If that pic is from the GM archives, they may have a whole series of them. I'm guessing that the car was a run of the mill GTO and the DPG testing probably fairly mundane. But it would be fun to see additional pix if they do exist.

[Tom Vaught]

John, I was assuming APG because if you look at the picture in Hot Rod you will see a lot of dirt and sand on the road surface that any Proving Ground in Michigan (next to a "fish bowl") would never have. The sand "dust" is obvious, and Riverside would not have a "Fish Bowl" but the railing could be Riverside except that most race tracks have wire fencing around/above them.

Tom Vaught

[John V.]

The old DPG in Mesa is as good a guess as any as to where the GTO seen in the current Hot Rod was photographed. The long defunct Riverside Int'l Raceway was a road course, it didn't have any high banking.

The page I posted from the Dec. '63 Hot Rod shows a pic of their test car convertible. Article says they tested it at Riverside.

In the background there is a stop sign and what looks to be an overpass too. I'm not sure if those features would have been found at RIR. There was a footbridge across the back straight, possibly that is the overpass I see in the background. Don't know what to make of the stop sign.

Here's a video lap around RIR from '65. You will see the footbridge (called Champion's Bridge because it displayed the Champion Spark Plug logo at the time).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zakPard0iKI

RIR could be arranged for a number of different race courses, so I suppose the old Hot Rod pic may be a shot taken at RIR near the footbridge. I surely don't know for certain.

I've emailed Don Keefe to see if he knows anything about the pic in the new Hot Rod.

[Keith Seymore]

I was resident at the DPG for four years.

I'll stop and grab a magazine on my way home tonight and see if I can spot anything in the pics.

K

[John V.]

Thanks Keith. Only 1 pic to look at.

Don Keefe says it wasn't his pic though he's seen it before. He also thought DPG, same placed they tested the Firebird III in 1958. Saw a video of that test but didn't see enough of the DPG to connect the GTO photo to it.

A good bit of stuff on the net about Milford but not much about DPG aside from the sale of the old property in Mesa.

[Keith Seymore]

Agree.

Looks like the high speed circle track at the DPG to me.

K

[tom s]

For those that might not know or remember,RIR had a 1/2 mile drag strip.Tom

[lilabner]

Originally Posted by Dick Boneske

This thread reminds me of the Mercury Marine episode in 1963 when they were thinking about offering the Pontiac 421 engine in their marine drives. They did extensive testing for power and reliability. No one knew for sure how many engines were purchased from Pontiac, but most agree it was about six 421's. I don't know if any ever made it into boats that were tested on the water. For some reason, I suspect lack of reliability, they abandoned the project. No Pontiac marine engines were sold for marine use by Mercury.

Here's the sad part--After abandoning the idea, the engines and parts were sent to a local scrapyard and destroyed--sledge hammer style. Several guys at Mercury tried to save some of the parts, but, from what I was told, none were saved. This is also how Mercury handled the throw-away parts from big block Chevrolet engines at one time--new pistons, cranks, bearings, valves etc. as they were fitted with marine parts--more clearance. It's hard to imagine why they couldn't buy bare blocks and heads.

The above is from former Mercury Marine employees I've met through the years since I live in the Fond du Lac area where Mercury headquarters are located. These guys built one "government job" big block 427 that's in a dark blue '64 GTO--local car. It was kind of king of the road in Oshkosh in the late '70's. Just last month, at a local car show, the current owner lit it up for us on a side street---A LOT of smoke.

Maybe someone on this board knows more about the Mercury "experiment."

I raced for Mercury from 60-late 63. I didn't "work" for them, just ran their supplied equipment, and was told what races to run. "You be there boy" Usually won my class. Mr. Kiekhaefer destroyed everything they didn't use anymore. Seldom did even a boat not get bulldozed and burned. I was at Lake X many times, knew all the employees and drivers. We still have a big boat racers reunion every year. Next one in Nov at Tavares, Fl.
Maybe the reason he didn't use the Pontiacs is because he also got some of the 63 Chevy Mystery engines. They used them first in the Miami Nassau Race which they won easily, and set a new record. But not with those engines. The 427's broke down, minor problem, and the other boat with 327's won. The 427's were second. Mercury went to all Chevys in the larger engines, where they have been since.
The only things that employee's could buy, or get, were Mr. K's hot Chryslers, Plymouths, and Dodges when he bought a new one. Which was often.
Check out the Imperial next to the Wings at Lake X.

[Dick Boneske]

lilabner,
Had you heard anything about the Pontiac engines Mercury tested and destroyed?

[johnta1]

Next one in Nov at Tavares, Fl.

Will you be there?

[lilabner]

Originally Posted by Dick Boneske

lilabner,
Had you heard anything about the Pontiac engines Mercury tested and destroyed?

No, I hadn't heard about the Pontiac engines. I was a Pontiac man too, with a 62 Catalina/Ventura. My future wife had a 61 Ventura bubbletop, and Smokey Yunick was my idol. The guys at Lake X never mentioned them, so it was probably a Fond du Lac venture. The mystery engines were rigged at the lake. The 427's were put in a super light 36 or 38 Memco, with a stripped out cabin and no windows. They were exposed with dry stacks about four feet high and a small water manifold about an inch square welded to the stacks about a foot from the top. Rules were inboards had to have water cooled manifolds. John Bakos was the driver, who will be at the reunion. He is about 83 or so now. The guy driving the 7000 wing is Dave Craig, my first boss out of high school. The boat is running about 120 at the Lake. After that run, Mr K asked him to try and turn it as fast and hard as possible. Didn't work out too good. Dave was thrown thru the side and the boat sunk. This was Bako's race boat and Dave was hurt, so Mr K gave Bakos Daves boat, the 700, which he won the Gold Coast Marathon with. 7000 was burned, it was the last of the 5 Prototype wooden wings and the fastest and best looking. Very sad for the people that loved them. 700 was number 5. Dave drove all of them. He was Mr. K's favorite.

And we won't be at that reunion this year, going to my wife's 60th instead, a year early.. She was a boat racer also.

[Tom Vaught]

lilabner, Thanks for the great Boat info.

Tom V.