[gtofreek]

You either have to save the pic on a site like photobucket, then copy the link from there, and post the link in your message, then when the page is opened, it will download the pic, and show it.

The other way is to go advanced by hitting the "go advanced" button under the quick replay field., Then under the reply box, there is a button that says "manage attachments". Click that, and then you can choose what picture to post, but it will post it as a thumbnail, and you will have to click on it to see it bigger.

[gtofreek]

Where does the 12 gauge red wire from your alternator plug go? If it goes directly to the battery post on the back of the alternator, try un-attaching it from there, and attach it directly to the positive post of the battery, and see if the voltage comes up. What you are describing can be caused by a bad sense of the battery condition. The regulator senses a good charge at the back of the alternator, but by the time it gets to the battery, it's lost voltage. Actually, I guess you can take a voltage reading at the battery post on the alternator, if that is the case, to see what the voltage is there when it is low at the battery.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Since the alternator is down, charge the battery good and leave the charger hooked up while testing.
Do not start the car.
Clamp your meter on the main battery supply cable and test one accessory at a time.
Write each item down and how many amps it pulls.
Fan starting amps is not important but worth noting.
Fan amp draw while running is what counts.
Total amp draw from all accessories to get a base line for how strong your new alternator needs to be.
The 60% of alternator output is to keep the alternator from overheating.

You could make a chart in something like 'paint' on your computer and then just do an attachment. With one item at a time you wont really need to.

[torqhead]

Trying this again:

Thanks for all the input, still working my way through this issue. I'm comfortable it's not a belt slipping issue. As I shared on my last updated, the amount the 94 amp alternator charging had dropped off during my first and second test which were monitoring voltage only. Ordered a DC clamp amp tester a few days ago and put it to use today.

Without fans and choke not running initially voltage read a 13.3 but dropped to 13.15 as it warmed up, added fans and it dropped to 12.8. Assuming the previous testing additional damage was done to the alternator as it was pretty hot when it got shut down (the 190+degrees) and hence why it started out lower. Added A/C while it was running and that finished the job as it dropped to 12.1.

There are 3 points I was using to collect amperage draw, although I struggled to begin with as I didn't realize I had the meter set wrong.. UGH Anyhow, by the time I got it set right I had to use my charger/booster on the car running at 50 Amps to supply power since the alternator took a turn for the worse. Net is, I'm not confident in my readings.

But I'll post what I have now and going to go through the process of getting charging fixed for another round of testing.

"A" = Positive of battery to starter
"B" = Positive of battery to alternator battery connection (10 gauge wire)
"C" = Alternator batter connection to fuse block and blower motor high speed relay

http://s1196.photobucket.com/user/to...dings.jpg.html

About the time I turned the A/C on with low fan is when the alternator took a dive and I turned on my charger/booster to finish getting readings.

[HWYSTR455]

You added the wire from the alt post to the battery? Usually the alt output/charge wire goes to the starter post where the battery hooks up. (internal regulator cars). technically, it goes to the common power point, but a run goes from there to the starter battery post.

There's a common point where the power wire branches out, that's important, since if you create different paths for voltage to flow, the power sensing point/distribution can see low voltage.

That point can also from years of use become less than perfect, and not carry voltage as required. (see first pic). Took that pic from MAD's site, from the remote coltage sensing tech article. Read that, it's good, basic info. (don't forget to hit the next page button at the bottom)

http://www.madelectrical.com/electri...esensing.shtml

For that matter, read all the stuff on the tech page, it's all great basic info. Pay attention to the 'Power-Up' article, even though it's for an externally regulated system, the principal still applies.

The feed for the high speed relay/blower has a fuse on it, and that holder can get boogered up, causing a poor connection. Check that.

How old is the engine harness? May consider replacing it.

The alt pulley will blue from heat if the belt is slipping bad enough, and it will become noticeable with the naked eye. You can use an IR gun on the pulley, and the body of the alt, which should make things pretty clear if it's slipping or not.

.

[PontGuy]

I think Quick-silver's idea is a good one. I had the harness tape pulled off so it was pretty easy to pick up the loads on the individual wires feeding all the accessories. Either way you want to record what the loads are on each individual accessory and record them. Then get the total.

I expect that you will find the individual loads for the factory accessories are very similar to mine. If not then something is probably wrong somewhere. Assuming that's all OK then you will need to measure and add the additional loads- radiator fans, etc.

Once you know everything is OK and how many amps you need to keep the volts up with everything on then you can make some informed decisions how to set up your charging system. Also the MAD links are very good. I have never had any issues with voltage sensing but then I have never deviated too far from the factory setup, and never added and high-load accessories like radiator fans. I can see how doing that could be a game changer especially if going through original factory wiring.

[torqhead]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

You added the wire from the alt post to the battery?

Yeah, the person I got the 200 Amp alternator required a 4 gauge wire between the two as a 4 gauge is required if 200 Amp's of charging is necessary. I ran that initially but really didn't like it or agree that a small terminal like that on the back of the alternator really should have a "battery cable" size connection. So I changed it to a 10 gauge...

Also, 2 years ago I went through and redid all the wiring under the hood with new wire. I used a 10 gauge wire from the back of the alternator that connects to the starter and ties into the main power line to the fuse box and blower fan. My connections were all soldered.

With that said, after my testing yesterday it makes it a bit confusing. So I'm going to remove the connection from alt battery to battery "B" first and then go through the testing Clay suggested.

FYI, my voltage sensing wire on the alternator is a direct connection to the alternator battery post.

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by torqhead

Yeah, the person I got the 200 Amp alternator required a 4 gauge wire between the two as a 4 gauge is required if 200 Amp's of charging is necessary. I ran that initially but really didn't like it or agree that a small terminal like that on the back of the alternator really should have a "battery cable" size connection. So I changed it to a 10 gauge...

Also, 2 years ago I went through and redid all the wiring under the hood with new wire. I used a 10 gauge wire from the back of the alternator that connects to the starter and ties into the main power line to the fuse box and blower fan. My connections were all soldered.

With that said, after my testing yesterday it makes it a bit confusing. So I'm going to remove the connection from alt battery to battery "B" first and then go through the testing Clay suggested.

FYI, my voltage sensing wire on the alternator is a direct connection to the alternator battery post.

That should go directly to the battery, unless the wire from alternator battery post to the battery is very short.

[Willshire]

Current always flows from the load to the source of power (battery). If you have a wire that goes from the starter to the battery only, there will only be current during start. If there is a connection from starter to another point in the car (alternator, fuse block) then there will be current on the starter to battery wire by proxy through the other wire. If you connect your clamp meter around all of the wires coming from the battery, you should get total current of the system. Alternator is used to maintain the battery only. All current requirements come from the battery and alternator is there to charge and maintain regulated voltage to the battery. Although a car will run without a battery after being started, the alternator is not designed to "power" the accessories it is a battery charger. The only requirement for AC is to power the clutch. If all things being off, your alternator is only putting out 13.2 when it should be 13.7-14.3V .
Resistance checks should be done on both positive and negative cables and be near zero.
How many watts is your stereo? Do you have capacitors installed in the subwoofer amp positive cable.
Have you load tested your battery?
What size of cable runs your stereo amps? Are they connected directly to the battery?

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

That should go directly to the battery, unless the wire from alternator battery post to the battery is very short.

Actually, it should go to the junction for the power where it was re-soldered. There should be a common point for all power distribution, and voltage sensing. That's the point Mark was making on the MAD site regarding remote voltage sensing.

True about the 'proxy' comment Willshire, and that's the reason for having a common point.

But the source wire for power that goes to the starter is the same lug as the cable that goes to the battery.

Good point too on the condition and type of battery, as well as the battery cables themselves.

I know many suggest running a large cable from the alt post directly to the battery, but I swear that's wrong. It should go to that common point, again, the whole voltage sensing thing, and the 'proxy' reasoning. But you do need a larger gauge cable, 6 is pretty good, if not 2 6g cables.

I have 3 10g cables on the 442, due to load (might be 3x8g), just to give an example. If the cable gets hot, it's not big enough. That thing has EFI (ECU and sensors), 2x26a fans (which spike to like 70), MSD box, dual sync dizzy, EFI fuel pump, A/C, 8 elements of H4 bulbs, and a 1200w stereo. Not to mention a bunch of other small stuff. That car tested me getting it ironed out.

The small terminal on the alt is really not that small, it has a flat area where the post enters the body, just use a wire lug that has a wide area that contacts that flat spot.

If the fans kick on or any other high load device and the lights dim or flicker, something's wrong. (if your alt is sized properly)

.

[torqhead]

I'm going to go through my wiring, but one point is I did not have any issues until I added the A/C and the only real difference is the compressor electrical load as the high speed blower was used for heat (although rarely).

I read through the MAD stuff and will go ahead and relocate the sensing wire to the junction which is at the rear of the motor area, but the sensing lead has been connected the way it is for several years with no issues.

And last but not least do the testing Clay recommended to come up with a "power demand" number as I agree it's best to know what is required. Got my work cut out for me over the next few days...

[Willshire]

Clean up all your grounds! including the one in the trunk for the stereo amplifiers.
Load test the battery, just to eliminate it from the equation.
Load test the alternator. Positive lead to alt heavy awg wire at the alternator. Do not put you negative lead of your multimeter to the alternator! put it to a suitable ground elsewhere on the motor/body or the battery negative terminal.
DC clamp meter on the positive battery cable(s).
Start turning on loads. adjust rpm to 2500 to maintain charging when all loads are on. (2500rpm achieves full alt output)

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by torqhead

I'm going to go through my wiring, but one point is I did not have any issues until I added the A/C and the only real difference is the compressor electrical load as the high speed blower was used for heat (although rarely).

It wasn't from adding the A/C it was from using the fan/blower more.
Just for example: 48 watts at 12 volts is only 4 amps.
If 4 amps pushed you over, you was already running on the ragged edge.

Make sure to put lights, wipers, and brake lights on your list of things to check.

Getting caught in traffic on a hot day in the middle of a rain storm...is when you'll tax your charging system the most.

Clay

[torqhead]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

It wasn't from adding the A/C it was from using the fan/blower more.
Just for example: 48 watts at 12 volts is only 4 amps.
If 4 amps pushed you over, you was already running on the ragged edge.

Make sure to put lights, wipers, and brake lights on your list of things to check.

Getting caught in traffic on a hot day in the middle of a rain storm...is when you'll tax your charging system the most.

Clay

Agree Clay, I was probably right on the edge with the 120 AMP alternator I was running but definitely going to validate what's required!

[george kujanski]

Willshire, you are incorrect. In a system operating at regulated voltage, the alternator provides the load current along with charge current going to the battery. If the loads are greater than what the alt can provide, the system voltage drops, and the loads are shared between the alt and the battery, i.e. the battery is dischraging.

George

[Willshire]

What wattage are your amplifiers? a 120 amp alternator should run anything you throw at it including your stereo (unless you have 8 12" subs). If you don't have capacitors on your sub amps that will draw it down as well (lights dim when the bass pounds)

[Willshire]

Originally Posted by george kujanski

Willshire, you are incorrect. In a system operating at regulated voltage, the alternator provides the load current along with charge current going to the battery. If the loads are greater than what the alt can provide, the system voltage drops, and the loads are shared between the alt and the battery, i.e. the battery is dischraging.

George

Agreed. I was incorrect. it is dual duty. In this case the battery would act as a capacitor for spikes of current, (turning on the blower or rear defog)

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by torqhead

definitely going to validate what's required!

Don't forget to note cranking and running amps for the fans.
Some of those old lincoln fans took 50~75 amps to get them started but only pulled 20 amps running.

The starting amp number doesn't mean you need an alternator with an extra 100 or so amps. The battery will start them up and the alternator will keep them going. And yes your lights will probably dim when the fans first start but everything will be fine once the fans get going.

Clay

[torqhead]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

Don't forget to note cranking and running amps for the fans.
Some of those old lincoln fans took 50~75 amps to get them started but only pulled 20 amps running.

The starting amp number doesn't mean you need an alternator with an extra 100 or so amps. The battery will start them up and the alternator will keep them going. And yes your lights will probably dim when the fans first start but everything will be fine once the fans get going.

Clay

I've got my fans set up to run when ignition is turned on, ie: always on and have run it that way for 15-20 years.

[torqhead]

Guys, made it through testing this weekend and I have made the conversion and installed a 140 Amp CS144 alternator temporarily. I discovered the alternator is defective as it doesn't provide the ground to turn the idiot light on if the alternator is not charging (car not running). It charges fine and works no problem running the car with A/C, stereo and headlights but it's on the edge of 60% use.

Posted in the attached pic you'll see all my readings for everything electrical on the car, the net is if I need to have "everything running" I would need 116.6 continuous amps of power. So my approach to install a 200 Amp alternator, using the 60% as a rule of thumb, would have matched what the car requires. Needless to say the 12SI "200 Amp" the other guy was selling me couldn't handle the approximate 58 Amps continuous the car required to run with A/C on high.

Looks like Powermaster and Tuff Stuff sell 200 Amp CS144's. I want a chrome one as I've outfitted the car with chrome under the hood. I've also read about single and dual rectifier options. Anyone have a recommendation on what's the best way to go and any experience with these or other vendors. I'd like to make the next alternator change the last one for a while!!!