[ScottD3]

For the problems Doug's headers has caused if I was the seller I would drop the line totally or just carry the non coated headers. Less hassel for the seller as well as my customers. There are header company's out there doing this with no problem's, means no hassel's or upset customer's. Your not going to make everybody happy all the time, but the only thing you really have is customer service. Would you rather make 10.00 dollars off a person one time or 5.00 dollars a hundred times.

[HWYSTR455]

Generally, distributors aren't responsible for replacing manufacturer's defective equipment, unless it's maybe an out-of-the-box obvious defect. The fact that PY is stepping in is certainly because they have excellent customer support, at least that's my opinion. They don't have to, hope you guys realize.

I purchased a set of Doug's for the 71 LeMans like 1.5 years ago, and the coating on those are great, period. Now I'm not that happy with the fit, since the rear control arm frame mount interferes a ton, especially on the pass side, to a point where I had to beat a dent in them to even mount them. That, along with not being able to use the lockout rod I feel is a fitment issue, one that would prevent me from buying in the future, especially since the hookers and headmans didn't have those issues. Ok, the hookers and headmans were D ports, so can't speak from a round port perspective, but wouldn't think they would be much different in those areas. As for the coating, the areas I beat on, the coating is still there, and not flaking or rusting...

Acquisitions are always tough on QA, and once the dust settles, I suspect they will be back to 'biz as usual'. It's unfortunate that the end-user/consumer suffers from this, but guys, that's the way it is, that's life. Yes, it sux, but it happens in many areas, not just headers, so no sense getting panties in a bunch...

[Ccass]

Originally Posted by ScottD3

For the problems Doug's headers has caused if I was the seller I would drop the line totally or just carry the non coated headers. Less hassel for the seller as well as my customers. There are header company's out there doing this with no problem's, means no hassel's or upset customer's. Your not going to make everybody happy all the time, but the only thing you really have is customer service. Would you rather make 10.00 dollars off a person one time or 5.00 dollars a hundred times.

This is true but PY, Ames, Summit, Jegs and several others have received very good quality and service from Doug's. They are still the best fitting Pontiac headers on the market. Hopefully this public post will stop a potential bad trend. If some of you have lost confidence in Dougs' ceramic coating quality, their headers are and have always been available uncoated.

[ScottD3]

I guess what I was trying to say is from the posts here Doug's is not Doug's anymore, that if you stopped selling there coated headers they would eventually fix the problem (you hope) and you would have no returns or unhappiness . Perfect world.

[Ccass]

Originally Posted by ScottD3

I guess what I was trying to say is from the posts here Doug's is not Doug's anymore, that if you stopped selling there coated headers they would eventually fix the problem (you hope) and you would have no returns or unhappiness . Perfect world.

I understand what you are saying and PY will definitely consider suspending sales of any product that consistantly underperforms. We're going to talk to Doug's and some other dealers and see if this is a common problem lately. I'm pretty sure this problem is NOT related to the changing of ownership of Doug's. I visited their facility and nothing really changed since the new ownership. Same facility, same workers, etc.

[Vic C]

Well, just finished reading this post, glad I came across it. I'm about to add headers & new exhaust to my '72 Lemans. I was really trying to talk myself into paying that much for Doug's, after this, forget it. Yes there is a chance I will get a good set and then there is a chance I get crap just like sarge. Do I really want to deal with that headache??? I think not. You expect to get a quality product when you're paying top dollar... don't you???

Sarge, I wish you luck in getting your situation settled. I will be emailing your contact and let them know they just lost a customer as a result of your experience. I think if others are in the same boat and are deciding to go with another product they should email and let them know what they are losing as a result of how they are handling Sarge's situation. Maybe once they see what the long term result of bad cs is, they will change their ways.

[Goin' Topless]

Let us remember that the problem is not the header and how it is manufactured, it is the coating that was applied. I own a pair of Doug's and I've coated several pairs, new and old, for customers in my shop. They are a quality built piece and will last. Trust me guys, I've seen a lot of headers pass through my door and I'd never "dis" a pair of Doug's based on how they are built.

This doesn't take anything away from Hedman's which place a close second in quality. Their factory black paint is terrible, but they have a quality item.

I do not know if Doug's ceramic coat their headers in-house or job it out, but switching to a cheaper ceramic material or changing ceramic shops to save money could happen easily. Even a personell change could have the same affect if the right person was let go.

[crustysarge]

I agree with Topless, The header itself is very well made, my issue is the coating rusted quickly. PY resolved the issue for me. If the new set rusts I will have them recoated by Topless and be done with it.

[TinjunTribe]

I like the looks of the Silver POR-20 in earlier post.........way cheaper and if shows signs of wear down the road, can recoat myself for a measly 30 bucks. After reading this, will definately be buying a black set of my brand of choice....and use the money saved from not going ceramic towards a roller cam or heck, that's 1/3 cost of some nice rotating assemblies..........hmm.........

[wheelspin]

Where can I buy a rotating assembly for $450 .

Les

[TinjunTribe]

if your savings are 450.00.........and your savings are 1/3 the cost of a rotating assembly.....then $450*3 = cost of rotating assy.......$1,350.00

Try PPR, nice 428 kit w 3" mains for $1,3xx.xx something (with the 5140 rods).

[judgethis]

Can ceramic headers be recoated or painted. I like the look the of the POR-20 painted ones on a previous post. Could the headers be recoated with the POR paint? What would need to be done to prep for paint?

[TinjunTribe]

Attached are the application specs, as usual, apply over clean bare metal.

[Ccass]

I talked with the owner of Doug's and I have the following observations.

1. The poor coating experienced by the topic starter certainly is unacceptable. Unfortunately, someone in this topic decided to draw their own conclusion that because Doug's was under new ownership that the product quality is suffering. This was an irresponsible comment and several other members have propogated this incorrect theory to the point where a reader, (if not reading very carefully) may very well think that Doug's is having consistant problems with their ceramic coating process. I originally jumped to that conclusion myself. But if one reads close, there are only one or two members that aren't very happy with their Doug's headers coating. There are several members that say their headers are showing signs of rust but in fairness to Doug's, besides the topic starter, we don't know any of the details or circumstances of the others.

2. Doug's is using the same ceramic coating company in Southern California that they have always used. Doug's is also paying a premium to have their headers polished longer. This additional polishing helps keep the headers from rusting. I am very confident that the Doug's ceramic coating process is consistant with other quality headers on the market. Ceramic coating is not a 'lifetime' surface coating. Nothing is for headers. Climate, motor, care and use, etc all effect the longevity of the ceramic coating.

3. Pontiac Owners still have a product that is 2nd to nobody as far as construction and fit. You all still have a company in Doug's that will stand behind their product if it is defective. You still have a company that employs many of the workers that worked for Doug before he sold. It's not time to panic. It's not time to boycott Doug's. It's not time to circle the Wagons and attack. The topic starter as well as prospective buyers have very viable options for resolution. These options are at least as good as other header mfg's. Let's stop speculating until the replacements have been received and/or dozens of other members come forward with similar bad ceramic coating experiences. This entire topic is extremely misleading and you bandwagoner's need to back away from the keyboard if you don't have first hand experience with Doug's headers.

[David Holmberg]

I have a set of Doug's round port headers, the fit and finish are great and there isn't any signs of rust on them at all. Here in Florida, with the salt air things really rust quickly, if left exposed.

[Goin' Topless]

Tinjun Tribe: The POR-20 route will yield a durable look, but ceramic coatings are not about achieving a nice look. The real benefit to a full ceramic coating is the inner barrier that is applied. This, along with the exterior coating will seal the unit and prohibit rusting from the inside out. The inner barrier will also work with the outer coating to block excessive heat bleed into the engine compartment.

Both barriers are also effective at preventing cracking.

Considering the environment they have to live in, the inner barrier will eventually break down, but the service life of your pipes will be much longer than an outer coating bought for $30 a quart.

Judgethis: Yes, ceramic coated headers can be re-coated. I'd recommend taking them to a local blaster though. Most ceramic coats are pretty tough and require a lot of time and air to take them off. Also, make absolutely sure the media (aluminum oxide is preferred) they are using is clean. If it is contaminated, the coating may lift and you won't know it until you just laid down the coat.

If you guys have any questions, PM me so we don't hijack this thread.

[GT182]

Are ceramic coated headers coated inside and out? If so, then how could they even begin to rust, unless the coating is inferior or not applied properly. There should be no metal exposed to rust.

I've been thinking of headers for my GTO and right now Hedmans and POR-20 sound pretty good. Even the anti-seize method sounds good.... and I know how good that stuff is.

Good luck guys on getting this sorted out.

[Goin' Topless]

When applied correctly, the inner coating will last a long time. It's a bit of a trick to not apply too thin or too thick of a coat. Too thick and it will flake off. Too thin and it will not work well. Considering the heat it is directly exposed to, it will eventually break down. But we're talking years, not months.

Coupled with a thick, quality-built header, like a pair of Doug's, a ceramic coat will get you a long-lasting good looking header for years.

[Goin' Topless]

Some further testimony would be my brother's 65 Chevelle SS. It has a pair of Hookers that were coated about 9 years ago. They are bolted to a 498 that propels it to high 11s through the mufflers. It's also street driven.

Still shiny as new. Keep in mind this is in iowa, the heart of the Rust Belt.

[Ccass]

Originally Posted by GT182

Are ceramic coated headers coated inside and out? If so, then how could they even begin to rust, unless the coating is inferior or not applied properly. There should be no metal exposed to rust.

I've been thinking of headers for my GTO and right now Hedmans and POR-20 sound pretty good. Even the anti-seize method sounds good.... and I know how good that stuff is.

Good luck guys on getting this sorted out.

The rusting discussed here is coming from the outside surface, not the inide. Ceramic is a 'coating'. If it is not applied thick enough or if the metal surface is not prepared properly before the coating is applied, you have potential rust issues. If the ceramic is not baked long enough you have the potential for rust. Now let's assume that all this was done properly. At this point, ceramic is rough susceptible to moisture laying on its surface. Therefore sooner than later, rust. The polishing operation is not just for good looks. It smoothes the ceramic surface and prevents moisture from building up on the surface. However, as the headers are polished, ceramic material is also being thinned out. In theory you could leave the headers in a polishing tank for days and they would be almost like chrome but the ceramic layer may now be extremely thin and then with time and elements, rust can start to appear. Moreso though, the rust starts in the areas where the ceramic can't be polished as well. In the cracks, tight spots etc. So the whole process of ceramic coating has to be done correctly or it won't last.

Again, this is what all header manufacturers face and its what 'some' customers face. Doug's, Heddman, Hooker Thorley etc...all of them. There are topics like this on probably every Automotive forum and for every brand of header. How the problem is handled is an important way to base your criteria of a header manufacturer's quality. What your goals are will affect your decision on what type of coating you want on your headers. Polished ceramic is the most expensive of the coatings and it's primary advantage is incredible ability to trap the heat inside the pipes. This increases gas flow and decreases outside temperatures dramatically. It's secondary advantage is its great looks....when it work properly.

Typical uncoated header tube temperature- 1200 degrees.
Typical ceramic coated header tube temperature- 300 degrees.