[roylee62]

Hmm.. maybe I should have titled this "Hi flow heads + short duration cams".

Yes aftermarket heads are expensive, but for those that do bite the bullet, 300+cfm heads are not much more than out of the box. A short duration, hi-lift, low-overlap roller shouldn't be too hard. There are plenty of aftermarket fuel-injection systems, throttle body or port injection, or MegaSquirt for the more ambitious. Or a Q-jet to keep it simple.

Traditional thinking says big heads + small cam is mis-matched, yet that is what GM does now with amazing results, so why couldn't we do it?

[HWYSTR455]

Well. First of all, no engine across diff manufacturers are going to perform 'the same', they are all a little different in different ways.

But. When you talk power, torque, and efficiency, that all can compare. It boils down to basic physics, bore, stroke, flow, tune, etc.

So you can't lump all 'LS' engines together, there are a variety that are all different from one another.

If you base it on power per CI, yes, you can come very close or exceed the power of an LS with a Pontiac, with the only areas that will be difficult to compete with are head flow/design, overall design, and engine management.

You can match or exceed most of those areas except pretty much the head performance. For the LS, the entire intake tract is 'tuned' for a particular 'range'. Countless hours of design has gone into it, to the likes DIY-ers just can compete. Professional builders, with some of the 'tools of the trade' can get close, but the number of hours of testing and refining is not cost effective for people with less than billions of dollars to throw at a particular engine/combo.

So if you look at the LS 5.7, 6.0, and 6.2, factory power numbers are like 345hp-404hp, until you get into forced induction models. How is that so far off from a Pontiac 400? We've been doing those numbers for years. You want more? Go to a 455, or a stroker. The forced induction LS models are like 550-640hp, and strokers are doing that without forced induction.

Too much LS hype. And don't mention cost. People think you can go to the junk yard and grab a truck LS and blow everything off the street. Nope. You think you can get a forced induction LS engine cheap? Nope. Call a local salvage yard and ask what they will sell one for, I think you will be surprised.

Crate LS engines? Bare 'replacement' engines are $7500-$9500, before you get into electronics. Connect & Cruise packages? Start at $13k, and go over $30k. Oh, you want a 'performance' LS engine? You can't touch one for under 18k, the ones you 'want' are in the 20s, if not 30k ranges. Shoot, most here won't even spring for good rods or pistons on a $7k build, much less a roller cam.

Dependability? 90% of that is human error or failure to properly build supporting systems. Period. You go through a Pontiac, build the drivetrain, suspension, and supporting systems properly, which you would need regardless of what engine you put it, and you will have comparable reliability. I've done it. And have crushed a lot of new muscle. I can spend half as much as new muscle and outperform with a Pontiac engine. And an older platform.

Don't get caught up in the hype. LS-Fest? It's a big Chebbie advertisement. All the mag-rags? Guess who supports them with advertising? The big three. You can see it just by looking at what's gracing the pages.

Total cost of ownership. So for example, you buy a new $25k car, over 5 years, do you know what that car will cost you? Like $40k. If you had 40k to dump into your pride and joy, what could you build. You could drive that for 5 years, and sell it more than the $25k car you bought which is now a paperweight.

So many poor comparisons, and propaganda, THAT'S what's driving the whole LS crazy.


.

[3fastgtos]

I’ve been building Pontiacs my whole life and won’t stop now. Never looked for the easy way out. The struggle is part of the reward.
When my oldest son found a ‘98 Firebird for his first car I tried to talk him out of it. Hard to work on, Fn Chevy engine in a Firebird. But sometimes you have to let your kids learn the hard way. He bought it, drove it most of the summer and then the engine started knocking. He pulled the motor out and we took it apart. Just a rod bearing but since it’s apart let’s get a little serious. Sent the heads off to get ported, called Texas Speed and matched a bigger roller cam to the improved heads. Forged pistons with h-beam steel rods. Bigger throttle body and injectors, sent the computer off. New clutch, posi unit and gears. Headers, flowmasters, new torque arm.
Fired right up sounded good, ran pretty good until it broke a new valve wiping out the head, piston, and aluminum block after only a few thousand miles. Got a matched head, iron block, new piston, here we go again.
The best it ever ran was equal to my ported RA3 headed 400 with a hydraulic Lunati cam, torquer 1 intake and 780 Holley carb. I ran that in the late 80s, full interior ‘68 Firebird that I drove all over the country. Granted, I only got 10 mpg.
The LS broke a keeper and dropped a valve destroying the same crap again. He finally sold the car as is and now has a ‘68 bird of his own.
At the end of the day I know I gave the LS and honest shot and it underwhelmed me. Yea it was a smaller motor but had way better parts than my old 400 did.
So I’m with ponyakr 100%
SD

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

We are getting off in the weeds so Ill just say this and drop it. Not like its going to change anyone's mind anyway. Whats strange is, there is only this section in the middle who gets super wrapped up in the branding thing. Because there is an even older group where hot rodding started that just hot swapped in whatever worked. I mean pickup a pre muscle era Hot Rod magazine. Its all swap in the new 331 Cadillac or 392 Hemi....

Exactly right. Brand swapping is nothing new. It's called hotrodding and has been going on since world war II. Still goes on today. People work within their budgets and do what it takes to go fast. Can't tell you how many 30's and 40's Fords I still see to this day that have Chevy drivetrains in them. You can build a Chevy cheaper than a Ford, or Pontiac for that matter.

As much as it pains people to admit it, you'll see more of that in Pontiacs in the coming decades as the Pontiac engine supply dries up. That architecture has been dead for nearly 40 years now. Only the rich and famous can afford the aftermarket block stuff and many here already crab at the cost of roller cams and better rods, or even a decent rocker arm lol.

[i82much]

I became a Pontiac guy because my parents bought a 1965 GTO in 1983 that had a 350 Chevy in it. I drove it with the 350 for five years, joined the Army, and the car sat in limbo and restoration for a couple decades. Now it has an IA2 in it and will probably never have another Chevy engine in it.

But my 72 Chevy longbed K10 might get a Pontiac engine one day

[HWYSTR455]

It is slowly drying up on blocks, and even the IA2 & MR blocks won't last forever. But just to give you an idea, the IA2 & MR blocks are closely priced to the LSX blocks, only a couple hundred bux apart.

As people switch to LS or aftermarket blocks, the factory blocks will be left for restorers, which IMO is the way it should be.

.

[i82much]

People need to get out, drive their cars, and have fun. An LS swap doesn't do anything for me, but I don't like blue cheese either. That should have absolutely zero impact on your choice of salad dressing tonight

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

It is slowly drying up on blocks, and even the IA2 & MR blocks won't last forever. But just to give you an idea, the IA2 & MR blocks are closely priced to the LSX blocks, only a couple hundred bux apart.

.

The divide there though is the LS blocks are still plentiful everywhere to buy used for much less than the aftermarket LSX block. Pontiac blocks not so much.

Have to wait till LS engines are out of production for 40 years and see how that turns the tide then.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

So many poor comparisons, and propaganda, THAT'S what's driving the whole LS crazy.


.

This. So much this.

You want a 525 hp hot cam LS?

https://www.gmperformancemotor.com/parts/19370413.html

9 grand...WITHOUT electronics. Add a couple grand for the engine management system of your choice

I had a 455 in near new condition. I purchased KRE D ports, a moderate roller cam and a FiTech system. All in about 6000.00 for similar performance and reliability.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by i82much

People need to get out, drive their cars, and have fun.

Best quote to date

If we had less complaining in the hobby and more people that actually drove their cars and enjoyed comradery this hobby would be much healthier. All the bitter people that want to complain about everything with their one track minds can just stay at home. Doesn't help that we still have segregated car events.

[i82much]

Len Williams will sell you a fresh 425 horsepower 455 for $5300:

http://www.lenwilliamsautomachine.co...ong_Block.html

[Half-Inch Stud]

Having familiarity with the 4.6L Lincoln/Ford "Modular" engine (and OD trans). i have to figure the OHC as a feature since it has been trouble-free on 4-5 used vehicles i've owned. What ever happened with 5.4-5.7-series engines with Cam Phasor KNOCK brings grief with any notion to "go bigger".

Any engine using cam and lifters seems to have a common wear-to-failure mode there. If the LS engines have Roller Lifters, then what keeps us PMD folks from fitting them in our Pontiacs?

Is there an OHC LS?

[JLMounce]

Not from the factory. Mercury has a DOHC LS based crate engine. Not sure if or when they will sell just the head and conversion pacakge.

https://www.mercuryracing.com/automotive/

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

If you base it on power per CI, yes, you can come very close or exceed the power of an LS with a Pontiac

What is the highest N/A HP per cube Pontiac V8?

[PAUL K]

I didn't read all the posts in this thread, but a properly built 455 Pontiac will hold their own against a similar LS engine. A lot of folks get confused because you can find a low mile LS engine in the scrap yard at a good price and get good performance for cheap.... This is nothing new. In the 60's folks with 389's did the same with 421's and the 70's the same was done with hi-compression 400's or round port 455's to replace anemic low compression smog engines.

At higher power levels the LS costs money to make big power just like a 4.6 Ford or anything else out there.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

This. So much this.

You want a 525 hp hot cam LS?

https://www.gmperformancemotor.com/parts/19370413.html

9 grand...WITHOUT electronics. Add a couple grand for the engine management system of your choice

I had a 455 in near new condition. I purchased KRE D ports, a moderate roller cam and a FiTech system. All in about 6000.00 for similar performance and reliability.

See I feel like that is propaganda and an unfair comparison. Crate motors are always going to cost more. There are tons of dudes out there these days following the sloppy mechanics formula make crazy power on basically stock short blocks. If you want to say that comparing a junkyard Gen III to a rebuilt Pontiac isn't fair, okay that's a fair point. But so what, re-ring it. have new valve seals put in. So now whats your cost? 3500 bucks? Conservatively probably. I could still fire 3 or more bullets compared to my motor, which admittedly was on the high side of the budget for a street/strip build.

I don't have any idea what I would put it in, but I have gotten real close several times do buying a 5.3 and putting together a turbo setup, just because how do you turn down 800+ horsepower for that cheap.

I just watched the 8s for 8 thing where a dude went 8.70s for under $8k. Im not as old as some of you guys but I am old enough to remember when 12.9 seconds was supposed to be fast. Its not really anymore. And a lot of that has been driven by how capable that late model GM powerplant is.

FWIW obviously I have a Pontiac. So its not like Im a hater here. I just think Im a realist, and I find myself defending things I don't really care about that much. As has been documented in this thread, the gen III+ stuff took the best from 70 years of pushrod motor design. The result is a better product.

[dataway]

I've always want to take a 326 and cram as much later model technology in it as humanely possible for a daily driver. Not for huge hp, just 350 hp would be fine, but for flawless, dependable, all weather, best mpg possible. Something you could beat the life out of without problems. Something with zero driveablity compromises.

But ... to be honest, back in the 70's my 66 Tempest with a 326 was pretty close to that (excepting hp) right from Pontiac.

For no other reason than to see if it could be done within a Pontiac block.

[PAUL K]

In regards to the comments in this thread about crate engines. A friend of mine put a new GM 572 / 720hp crate engine on his dyno... It wouldn't make 680hp no matter what we did.

I've personally fixed five crate engines that were purchased because they "come with a warranty". All five had issues within the "warranty" period and the owners chose to have the issues "fixed right" rather than use the "warranty".

The 4.6 Ford's have issues also...in addition to launching their spark plugs into orbit!

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

What is the highest N/A HP per cube Pontiac V8?

Factory? 470hp I believe. 70 GTO/GP 455? Just going off Wallace head chart:

http://www.wallaceracing.com/head1.htm

Strokers? you can fall off a log and make over 500. Most range in the 550-620 range depending on how it's cammed, etc.

GM plays with the numbers on the LS engine. For example, usually, in-car numbers are rear wheel, flywheel for 'crate' engines.

As for 'performance' LS crate engines, I don't think the GMPs are really that 'performance' oriented. People like MAST are more like actual, true performance engines. Costs?

https://www.mastmotorsports.com/collections/ls-engines

Keep in mind that is for engines only. No electronics, no supports systems or transmissions, like the GMP 'Connect & Drive' offerings.

https://www.gmperformancemotor.com/category/CC.html

Just to say, some are having issues with the connect & cruise stuff, first, they are dirty, like all GMP engines are. Personally, I would tear one down and clean them up, inspect, before I put one into service. One friend has a 69 Camaro, he is on his 3rd engine in a fairly short period of time.

FormulaJones - Used, yeah, not many IA2 or MR blocks for sale used, but people keep them until they can't be rebuilt anymore, though not sure how that compares to LSX blocks, not sure of production numbers on any of those, but bet there's not many used LSX blocks out there for the same reasons. There are still making them though. Hard to say.

.

[i82much]

Let's say you wanted a basic E-head, hydraulic roller Pontiac long block with a forged crank and good aftermarket rods. What does that long block cost in a factory block, and how much more in an aftermarket block?