[242177P]

Originally Posted by dataway

I've always want to take a 326 and cram as much later model technology in it as humanely possible for a daily driver. Not for huge hp, just 350 hp would be fine, but for flawless, dependable, all weather, best mpg possible. Something you could beat the life out of without problems. Something with zero driveablity compromises.

But ... to be honest, back in the 70's my 66 Tempest with a 326 was pretty close to that (excepting hp) right from Pontiac.

For no other reason than to see if it could be done within a Pontiac block.

Hmm. Zero driveability problems. A little 326 and a little turbo should make... 350 horsepower.

[HWYSTR455]

Add about 1800-2400, depending on what you get each block for. Maybe less. I got a deal on my, block machine work was free if I bought an IA2 block. It was a deal Butler had. They had a ready to assemble deal too that included a rotating assembly, but didn't go for that.

They have a $7200 short block IS2 based kit:

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2448...tegory:1234783

The 400 block based ones are $3900:

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...tegory:1234783

BUT, if you want 'select castings', and forged internals, and 4 bolt caps, it jumps up to like $5800. The IA2 short block offering is only with forged assemblies, so it makes it a more reasonable comparison. So $1300 difference.

Select castings are about $800 more, but if you want a select casting 400, with originally 2 bolt mains, it's more like $1100 more.

300+ CFM round port E-heads are $2995, which you would/could use on either.

Those are long blocks, you still need like cam, lifters, rockers, pushrods, valley & oil pans, intake, valve covers, balancer, oil pump, flexplate, etc. Obviously. But it's a true performance build at that point.

.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

See I feel like that is propaganda and an unfair comparison. Crate motors are always going to cost more. There are tons of dudes out there these days following the sloppy mechanics formula make crazy power on basically stock short blocks. If you want to say that comparing a junkyard Gen III to a rebuilt Pontiac isn't fair, okay that's a fair point. But so what, re-ring it. have new valve seals put in. So now whats your cost? 3500 bucks? Conservatively probably. I could still fire 3 or more bullets compared to my motor, which admittedly was on the high side of the budget for a street/strip build.

I don't have any idea what I would put it in, but I have gotten real close several times do buying a 5.3 and putting together a turbo setup, just because how do you turn down 800+ horsepower for that cheap.

I just watched the 8s for 8 thing where a dude went 8.70s for under $8k. Im not as old as some of you guys but I am old enough to remember when 12.9 seconds was supposed to be fast. Its not really anymore. And a lot of that has been driven by how capable that late model GM powerplant is.

FWIW obviously I have a Pontiac. So its not like Im a hater here. I just think Im a realist, and I find myself defending things I don't really care about that much. As has been documented in this thread, the gen III+ stuff took the best from 70 years of pushrod motor design. The result is a better product.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2448...tegory:1267471

Engine which will have similar power and will also need the induction system. Gonna be a pretty close wash when compared to that GM crate LS.

You can start comparing these things all day and if you do the same. Junk Yard LS, or you find a used 400/455. Machining costs will be nominal. Everything you have to buy for the pontiac, you have to buy for the LS.

Every time I've ever looked at it, it's six one way, half a dozen the other.

[HWYSTR455]

Yup.

EDIT: Actually, it's more for an LS build. Like I said, you don't get a 'true' performance engine with the GMP crate engines, still need electronics too.
.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by i82much

Let's say you wanted a basic E-head, hydraulic roller Pontiac long block with a forged crank and good aftermarket rods. What does that long block cost in a factory block, and how much more in an aftermarket block?

Assuming you find a good used 455 block to start with they usually go for $500 around these parts. For me to build a long block with good aluminum heads and roller cam is going to set me back close to $10k buy the time I buy everything, and good quality machine work. That's just what it costs these days to build a good solid engine from scratch, and it'll likely make in the 600hp neighborhood and run pump gas. Even if I build a lesser HP engine the cost doesn't really change much because I still apply all the quality machine work and parts to a build for a solid package that'll give me durability and longevity.

If I wanted to go with a new aftermarket block you can add $3200 to that cost, because that's what it cost my father. Then there is still machine work on top of that to do, so you aren't avoiding block work by going this route.
Then there is the cost of an aftermarket crank, because you don't buy an aftermarket block that accepts a giant crank and drop in a stock 4.210 455 crank. So the costs just start adding up. Then you end up with custom pistons to keep compression in check and so on.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

You can start comparing these things all day and if you do the same. Junk Yard LS, or you find a used 400/455. Machining costs will be nominal. Everything you have to buy for the pontiac, you have to buy for the LS.

Every time I've ever looked at it, it's six one way, half a dozen the other.

This is where our disagreement is though. I DONT think you have to do all the same things to the newer shortblocks. You can, and its better to do so, I wouldn't argue that. But also, I think there is enough evidence of dudes running factory short blocks now that it wouldn't bother me that much to do the same thing.

I would feel at least marginally confident just re-ringing a used LS block. Maybe bearings. But otherwise all OEM parts. I wouldn't feel the same about a junkyard 400. You are always gambling with used parts, but I think the gamble is way less with a newer motor.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

This is where our disagreement is though. I DONT think you have to do all the same things to the newer shortblocks. You can, and its better to do so, I wouldn't argue that. But also, I think there is enough evidence of dudes running factory short blocks now that it wouldn't bother me that much to do the same thing.

I would feel at least marginally confident just re-ringing a used LS block. Maybe bearings. But otherwise all OEM parts. I wouldn't feel the same about a junkyard 400. You are always gambling with used parts, but I think the gamble is way less with a newer motor.

Correct. Agree and to take that further, this is where that thinking is flawed. Where are people going to find a 60 year old used 400 that's in good enough shape to do the things people are doing to current used LS engines??? You just aren't. Doesn't happen these days.

The whole reason LS engines are being bought and retrofitted is because they aren't that old, low mile examples are everywhere, and it's cheap and simple to buy and plunk in, add a few performance parts and you're on your way. That doesn't happen anymore on a production engine that's been out of production for the last 40 years people, lol.

[HWYSTR455]

The 455 block based short block kits with forged internals are $5050 with main caps:

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2553...tegory:1234783

So like $2-2200 more for an IA2. You still get a little bit of a savings.


.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Correct. Agree and to take that further, this is where that thinking is flawed. Where are people going to find a 60 year old used 400 that's in good enough shape to do the things people are doing to current used LS engines??? You just aren't. Doesn't happen these days.

The whole reason LS engines are being bought and retrofitted is because they aren't that old, low mile examples are everywhere, and it's cheap and simple to buy and plunk in, add a few performance parts and you're on your way. That doesn't happen anymore on a production engine that's been out of production for the last 40 years people, lol.

Good points, you could argue that the LS motors just by virtue of being newer are going to have a better shot in used condition. There is also that oils are way better now, so they got that benefit during their life.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

Good points, you could argue that the LS motors just by virtue of being newer are going to have a better shot in used condition. There is also that oils are way better now, so they got that benefit during their life.

I would probably argue the other way, a good seasoned block, most likely better metal, iron at that, as long as it checks out on sonic, it will outlast an aluminum block every time.

Are the newer iron LS blocks as good as the ones back in the day? Um. Some would argue that too.


.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

Good points, you could argue that the LS motors just by virtue of being newer are going to have a better shot in used condition. There is also that oils are way better now, so they got that benefit during their life.

Exactly, and they generally lead a cushier life as well when you consider the miles they have on them were with an overdrive loafing along the interstate.

100k mile LS engines are easy to find, and don't scare me the least bit, and will go another 100k with performance goodies added. Been there done that.

Buddy of mine just bought an LSA out of a wrecked ZR1 with 20k miles on it for his retro swap. Low mile stuff is all over the place to buy.

I bought my 6.0 with 80k miles on it, swapped it in my blazer, dumped the emissions and a custom tune, then proceeded to beat the snot out of it. 5,000 lbs. with 33" tires and it would whoop most any unsuspecting sucker on the street and ran low 14's Engine only cost me $2k. I couldn't do that with the gen 1 355 that was in it for that kind of money.

https://youtu.be/msgSc3S-yHA

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Assuming you find a good used 455 block to start with they usually go for $500 around these parts. For me to build a long block with good aluminum heads and roller cam is going to set me back close to $10k buy the time I buy everything, and good quality machine work. That's just what it costs these days to build a good solid engine from scratch, and it'll likely make in the 600hp neighborhood and run pump gas. Even if I build a lesser HP engine the cost doesn't really change much because I still apply all the quality machine work and parts to a build for a solid package that'll give me durability and longevity.

If I wanted to go with a new aftermarket block you can add $3200 to that cost, because that's what it cost my father. Then there is still machine work on top of that to do, so you aren't avoiding block work by going this route.
Then there is the cost of an aftermarket crank, because you don't buy an aftermarket block that accepts a giant crank and drop in a stock 4.210 455 crank. So the costs just start adding up. Then you end up with custom pistons to keep compression in check and so on.

Yeah, this is that delta I was talking about where the LS starts making more sense. The aluminum LS stuff will cope with around 1200hp with a good tune and the right parts in it. The iron blocks are good to around 1500.

This is the street section though, so we're probably not talking about power figures that high.

If you don't have a motor yet and you have options to buy used or find a block and build there are areas where it makes sense to go LS and there are areas that make sense to stick with the pontiac.

Power goal at or below 320hp favors the LS by a fairly wide margin assuming you can find a good used and running example in the 800-1200 range

Power goal between 320-600 hp where you don't have either motor in hand is really basically a wash, no matter if you go turn key crate motor, or find an engine and build it

Past the 600hp range where you start to need to modify the factory pontiac block through that 1200-1500 hp range that the LS will support, this favors the LS because of the cost of the afermarket pontiac block.

Beyond that point the numbers wash again, but you're in big power and big cost land regardless.

If you already have an LS, or a Pontiac on hand and especially if they are in decent condition, budget would favor whatever you already have, with an edge to the Pontiac simply because you don't have to worry about the supporting items necessary for the swap.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Assuming you find a good used 455 block to start with they usually go for $500 around these parts. For me to build a long block with good aluminum heads and roller cam is going to set me back close to $10k buy the time I buy everything, and good quality machine work. That's just what it costs these days to build a good solid engine from scratch, and it'll likely make in the 600hp neighborhood and run pump gas. Even if I build a lesser HP engine the cost doesn't really change much because I still apply all the quality machine work and parts to a build for a solid package that'll give me durability and longevity.

If I wanted to go with a new aftermarket block you can add $3200 to that cost, because that's what it cost my father. Then there is still machine work on top of that to do, so you aren't avoiding block work by going this route.
Then there is the cost of an aftermarket crank, because you don't buy an aftermarket block that accepts a giant crank and drop in a stock 4.210 455 crank. So the costs just start adding up. Then you end up with custom pistons to keep compression in check and so on.

Sheesh. I seem to remember my 505 coming in at around 10k in 2008 or so, but that was with a flat-tappet cam and cast eagle crank. Later upgraded to forged crank and hydraulic roller. But it's been so long I can't remember if that included things like the intake and oil pan etc.

I had zero Pontiac parts. It all adds up. Plus things like engine brackets, oil pump adapter, timing cover, pulleys, etc. Every situation is different i guess. If you have absolutely nothing and go to a junkyard and get everything you need for an LS swap, that's completely different than running around on forums trying to find matching parts for an old Pontiac!

[HWYSTR455]

Just to say, regardless of which block you use, a preformance build still requires the same amount of machine work. OE assembly line tolerances are still mass-quality.


.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

I would probably argue the other way, a good seasoned block, most likely better metal, iron at that, as long as it checks out on sonic, it will outlast an aluminum block every time.

Are the newer iron LS blocks as good as the ones back in the day? Um. Some would argue that too.


.

I don’t understand your argument there. It’s been mentioned here already that one of the non arguable draws to the LS is that the factory blocks stand up to more power..

And most of the swaps stories that I read are using the iron blocks.

[HWYSTR455]

I'm just saying that due to Pontiac blocks being 'older', doesn't mean that they are less usable, specifically from age. I'm not quite sure what the 'standard' iron LS blocks will take power-wise, but will say they are not all created equal. I think the 5.3s are around the 800hp mark just like Pontiacs, but again, not sure.

Cast pistons are in I think all of them, and are somewhat limited to like 6000 RPM. Let me look that up, but pretty sure that's the case...

Yes:

http://blog.jepistons.com/everything...-engine-family

Only the blown LS's have forged cranks & rods. Parts do not interchange between all series, and some have unique parts that are not cheap, especially if you want performance stuff.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be anti-LS, all I'm saying is it isn't as easy as everyone thinks. If you pull a truck engine out of the yards, you're getting a truck engine. It's fine for some apps, but it's not like all LS's are 'performance' engines. You can push them, but that will limit their' life span. Shoot, there's guys here that are pushing factory blocks just as much or more, past 1000hp, and they're 'getting away with it', but everything is finite.

I know people that are blowing LS's up. I know people that have late model performance cars, and they hit a wall around 650 or so, and if you go beyond that, you blow them up. Or you have to upgrade parts, and then it gets expensive. I know guys that are doing swaps and are blowing them up. They think like many here that you can just go to the yards and grab an LS and make big power. It's not like that. That's all I'm trying to say. And if you want a true performance build, you have to pay for it.

I know a lot of people that are having issues with lifter tick too. Look at the vette forums, so they are having the same issues we are. Just do a search for 'corvette lifter tick' and you will see. It's not just a here-there thing either.

If you want 350-450hp, a cruiser, fine, that would work for a budget swap, but you will eventually get tired of it. Look at all the people here who have 400-450, they all want more.

.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

If you want 350-450hp, a cruiser, fine, that would work for a budget swap, but you will eventually get tired of it. Look at all the people here who have 400-450, they all want more.

As Axl Rose once said, "I used to do a little but a little wasn't doin' so a little got more and more ..."

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by i82much

Sheesh. I seem to remember my 505 coming in at around 10k in 2008 or so, but that was with a flat-tappet cam and cast eagle crank. Later upgraded to forged crank and hydraulic roller. But it's been so long I can't remember if that included things like the intake and oil pan etc.

I had zero Pontiac parts. It all adds up. Plus things like engine brackets, oil pump adapter, timing cover, pulleys, etc. Every situation is different i guess. If you have absolutely nothing and go to a junkyard and get everything you need for an LS swap, that's completely different than running around on forums trying to find matching parts for an old Pontiac!

Yeah it's just not cheap to build an engine anymore. To give another example just a few years back I completely rebuilt our DZ302. SBC is the cheapest thing on the planet right? Keeping in mind I reused the block and crank, heads and intake and carb, and stayed with the solid flat tappet camshaft too.
Machine work costs alone were close to $4k. That's block work, crank work, touching up a brand new set of rods, and rebuilding the cylinder heads was $1,000 alone. New seats, guides, valves, springs, retainers, you get the idea. I did spend a couple hundred extra for nitride treatment on the camshaft and a set of EDM solid lifters with a pressurized hole on the face for extra lube. But it's still a basically stock rebuild with good JE pistons etc. (JE was the only manufacture at that time that made a NHRA legal correct DZ piston) Lots of attention to detail and top quality machine work. The bill was just over $6,000 and that's just a stock 302ci sbc that makes just shy of 400hp with headers on it. It was never meant to be a budget build at all, I just don't do that sort of thing here, but it is still as stock of an engine as it was originally, with some improvements. It has good top quality parts inside it, and has proven now after 3 years of daily driving to be a solid running engine, doesn't use a drop of oil and is now knocking down 21.5 mpg with the addition of an overdrive 5 speed behind it.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Yeah it's just not cheap to build an engine anymore. To give another example just a few years back I completely rebuilt our DZ302. SBC is the cheapest thing on the planet right? Keeping in mind I reused the block and crank, heads and intake and carb, and stayed with the solid flat tappet camshaft too.
Machine work costs alone were close to $4k. That's block work, crank work, touching up a brand new set of rods, and rebuilding the cylinder heads was $1,000 alone. New seats, guides, valves, springs, retainers, you get the idea. I did spend a couple hundred extra for nitride treatment on the camshaft and a set of EDM solid lifters with a pressurized hole on the face for extra lube. But it's still a basically stock rebuild with good JE pistons etc. (JE was the only manufacture at that time that made a NHRA legal correct DZ piston) Lots of attention to detail and top quality machine work. The bill was just over $6,000 and that's just a stock 302ci sbc that makes just shy of 400hp with headers on it. It was never meant to be a budget build at all, I just don't do that sort of thing here, but it is still as stock of an engine as it was originally, with some improvements. It has good top quality parts inside it, and has proven now after 3 years of daily driving to be a solid running engine, doesn't use a drop of oil and is now knocking down 21.5 mpg with the addition of an overdrive 5 speed behind it.

Sounds like an awesome ride. I'd love to see a video of that 302!

I had my 505 rebuilt here in Spokane by a local guy with a good reputation, it was only $850 labor. So far so good, I've got about 1500 miles on it and no issues to date. We reused the rods, pistons, and cometic head gaskets but switched to a hydraulic roller, and I think it was about $2500 total.

[llwta76]

Several yrs ago the lady I worked with said her husbands '65 GTO ( I saw it run high 9s at the Pontiac nationals) ran a BBC. Disappointed I asked "why"? She said Pontiacs blow up too much. My response ... "Not if you know how to build them" and I walked away. I for one can't understand people who snub their noses at Pontiacs like they're no good. Of coarse they're Chevy and Mustang lovers. At car shows all you see are Chevys and Mustangs. So much so that they've taken them over. My T/A is one of VERY few Pontiacs seen. I feel like I'm not wanted there by a lot of people. I'm proud of my car and just don't understand these jerks. I have no use for that environment.
My buddy ( has a T/A also ) has gotten a negative attitude especially towards anybody that would run a Chevy in a 60s-70s Pontiac. I have to admit that it's a slam to me too. Larry