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#1
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Sooo tired of lousy braking and pedal feel!
Well I finally threw in the towel and ordered a vacuum pump as a fix for my hard pedal and unresponsive 4 wheel disc conversion. I've tried everything but stand on my head to get the brakes to feel like a "normal car" including swapping to a dual diaphragm booster from a Turbo TA. 12" of vacuum is 12" of vacuum and just doesn't cut it apparently.
I ordered a prewired, self-contained unit from Leed Brakes that utilizes a Hella rotary vane pump similar to what late model GM's are using. The maker says it completely replaces engine vacuum as the vacuum source though I plan on installing a T and check valve so the engine vacuum is available in the event of a pump failure and will probably add a vacuum storage canister if the pump volume doesn't keep up. One interesting thing I encountered from dialog with multiple "techs" is the claim that "All you really need is a vacuum reserve canister ...". Am I the only guy that thinks "if 12" of vacuum won't operate my brake booster now, why would a larger reserve of 12" of vacuum be any better?" Wish me luck because the next step will be a complete do-over as the car just does not stop like it should. Any ideas? The low engine vacuum has persisted through 3 different camshaft/intake/carburetor combinations. It is what it is. I know someone will recommend a Hydroboost but that's not an option. I don't like the way they look on a classic car.
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Triple Black 1971 GTO |
#2
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I would go manual and get rid of the big ugly booster. Just did this on my brother's car with front disc and a Wilwood master. Looks great and works great.
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1967 Firechicken, 499", Edl heads, 262/266@0.050" duration and 0.627"/0.643 lift SR cam, 3.90 gear, 28" tire, 3550#. 10.01@134.3 mph with a 1.45 60'. Still WAY under the rollbar rule. |
#3
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You read my mind if this pump doesn't work out.
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Triple Black 1971 GTO |
#4
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Remind me/us... What conversion kit do you have installed? And do you still have a 1/4" line running from front to back of car?
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1966 Pontiac GTO (restoration thread) 1998 BMW 328is (track rat) 2023 Subaru Crosstrek Limited (daily) View my photos: Caught in the Wild |
#5
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I have a feeling something else isn’t right. 12” of vacuum at idle should be plenty to run power brakes. Heck I run power brakes without issue with about 10” of vacuum. I’ve got to get down to about 9” before I start feeling an issue.
One thing to note about the vacuum reservoirs is that you are absolutely pulling more vacuum than 12” during low load driving operation. Probably over 15” of vacuum, if not more. That’s what you would actually have in reserve. That’s also the vacuum level your booster is going to be seeing as you decelerate and break. That’s what specifically leads me to believe you have something else going on. Are you running an actual vacuum hose to your booster and not fuel hose? Vacuum hose is specifically designed not to collapse. While fuel hose is not. If that hose collapses, there goes your vacuum assist. As mentioned already I’d also be looking at line size, verifying the combination valve is setup for disc/disc operation. Disc brakes need more fluid volume than drums. I’ve seen a lot of people try to reuse the original drum/drum combination valves and that’ll be a recipe for poor braking performance.
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-Jason 1969 Pontiac Firebird |
#6
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Right Stuff kit and stayed with all the born with brake lines. Wilwood 1" master/prop valve recommended by Wilwood for the big D52 calipers.
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1967 Firechicken, 499", Edl heads, 262/266@0.050" duration and 0.627"/0.643 lift SR cam, 3.90 gear, 28" tire, 3550#. 10.01@134.3 mph with a 1.45 60'. Still WAY under the rollbar rule. |
#7
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Hydraboost...$300.00 bucks...Done
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1978 Black & Gold T/A [complete 70 Ram Air III (carb to pan) PQ and 12 bolt], fully loaded, deluxe, WS6, T-Top car - 1972 Formula 455HO Ram Air numbers matching Julep Green - 1971 T/A 455, 320 CFM Eheads, RP cam, Doug's headers, Fuel injection, TKX 5 Spd. 12 Bolt 3.73, 4 wheel disc. All A/C cars |
The Following User Says Thank You to FrankieT/A For This Useful Post: | ||
#8
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I have reman OEM calipers up front, reman Cadillac Eldorado calipers in back, with parking brake pre-loaded per the manual, Reman '81 Turbo TA dual diaphragm booster (holds vacuum, hisses like a scalded cat when you pull the hose and fitting), check valve is (was}new and obviously working. Master is a 1-1/8" bore Corvette style (oem for '69 Z28/ZL1 disc/disc). GM disc/disc prop/combo valve and Inline Tube brake lines for disc/disc w. under-master cylinder prop valve mount. Basically, it just doesn't stop. I couldn't lock up the brakes if my life depended on it. Pedal has long travel with rock hard engagement, drop slightly when started. Everything has been bled multiple times even though the pedal is rock hard and not the problem. The brakes have been awful since installed. Brake shops won't touch it because it is not OEM.
This pump is the last straw. After that, it all comes off and I start over with a Wilwood manual 1" bore master and Wilwood calipers.
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Triple Black 1971 GTO |
#9
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If this helps you....
A little background: I have had Pontiacs for forty years. I've always built them up with porting and cams and stuff. I've always had a hard pedal or get one good stop, then the next quick one; hard pedal and no stop. Well I got tired of that in my mid fifties and decided to go to Hydraboost. Did the research and here is my set up in order. First was rear wheel disc from an S10 and an aluminum master, booster and proportioning valve from an 81 T/A with four wheel disc . That was a worthy upgrade. Then the hydaboost from an Astrovan and hoses from an '81 Cadillac Seville diesel. Instant amazing brakes. Then after that 12" rotors front and rear and Wilwood calipers all the way around.
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1978 Black & Gold T/A [complete 70 Ram Air III (carb to pan) PQ and 12 bolt], fully loaded, deluxe, WS6, T-Top car - 1972 Formula 455HO Ram Air numbers matching Julep Green - 1971 T/A 455, 320 CFM Eheads, RP cam, Doug's headers, Fuel injection, TKX 5 Spd. 12 Bolt 3.73, 4 wheel disc. All A/C cars |
#10
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I had a problem on a '68 GTO like this that drove me crazy - even had a new reman'd booster on it. Could not get the tires to lock up and almost felt like manual brakes by how much pressure I had to put on the peddle. As last resort I went up under the dash and where the connecting rod comes out of the booster there was a felt pad or filter around it to keep junk from being pulled into the booster as the diaphragm moved back and forth. After removing it and hitting the brakes it almost put me thru the windshield. I think the filter was acting like a plug and not letting the booster do its job or allowing the diaphragm to move. Easy to check from sticking your head under the dash. This "tip" has helped out several folks in the past.
Hope this helps. |
#11
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Quote:
Here is what it looks like. Pretty but works only marginally better than the junk I took off (drum/drum master, original drum booster) extended drum brake lines and used GM calipers the prior owner had done).
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Triple Black 1971 GTO |
#12
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Quote:
Just spitballing here...
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1966 Pontiac GTO (restoration thread) 1998 BMW 328is (track rat) 2023 Subaru Crosstrek Limited (daily) View my photos: Caught in the Wild Last edited by ZeGermanHam; 07-20-2020 at 11:21 PM. |
#13
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Looking at the first picture of the combination valve, I don’t see a plumbing issue. The valves is backwards from typical mounting but the rear reservoirs is feeding the rear brake and the front reservoirs feeding the front brake.
I’m sure this isn’t the issue, but just to check everything off the list, is the brake pedal clevice installed in the proper hole in the pedal? Or at all? For quite a while I had literally the exact issue you’re dealing with. Turned out that the pushrod clevice pin was literally not attached. The brakes “worked” because the pushrod would still be pushed by the pedal, but because the clevice was not in the correct position the pedal ratio was terrible. Another area to look at is the pushrod to piston clearance in the master cylinder. If there is excessive clearance, you’re using a lot of pedal travel before you start applying hydraulic pressure. You can try moving the pushrod to the top hole in the pedal. If it gets considerably better it’s either a pedal ratio issue or a fluid volume issue (likely pushrod to piston clearance).
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-Jason 1969 Pontiac Firebird |
#14
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Have you ever considered using a 1" bore master cylinder instead of the 1.125" you now have? I replaced my master cylinder with a smaller bore one and cured all my problems. Remember your fat foot makes more pressure with a smaller bore than with a larger one.
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#15
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Quote:
Again, that's just if his kit is similar to my CPP conversion kit, and it might be. If it uses different components, all bets are off.
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1966 Pontiac GTO (restoration thread) 1998 BMW 328is (track rat) 2023 Subaru Crosstrek Limited (daily) View my photos: Caught in the Wild |
#16
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Quote:
I've had it in 3 different shops, described the issues, explained the work already done, literally handed each of them my credit card and said fix the brakes, I don't car what it takes. They've all tried and failed. I've done everything I can and just can't trust the car to drive it. I will try the vacuum pump and if that's not the answer, the cover goes on and won't be coming off.
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Triple Black 1971 GTO |
#17
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Quote:
Must be some differences between our kits, but mine is just the basic 68-72 Chevelle front calipers and Eldorado rears.
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1966 Pontiac GTO (restoration thread) 1998 BMW 328is (track rat) 2023 Subaru Crosstrek Limited (daily) View my photos: Caught in the Wild |
#18
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Interesting. My kit did not include any hard lines, only rear soft lines, calipers, rotors, caliper brackets and soft line tabs. I already had front discs on the car (installed by prior owner) with booster and master. Proportioning valve was installed where the distribution block was orig mounted on the frame rail (about 1/4” away from a header downtube lol).
As mentioned, I wound up replacing everything the further I got into it. The line kit from Inline Tube is precut and pre-bent with tube nut terminations. They sell kits for configured for OEM replacement (using existing distribution block) or disc conversion in both bottom or side (relative to master cylinder) mounted combination valve with no distribution block. When I installed, the ends terminated within 1/4” of my bottom mounted combination valve. Like I said, it’s all by the and doesn’t stop the car. I can sit at a stop and literally feel the brakes yield letting the car creep forward. No fluid leaks and every hydraulic part has been bought and replaced since I started this ordeal.
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Triple Black 1971 GTO |
#19
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I recently went through a similar trial & error process with my manual disc/disc setup and learned a little more while speaking with a wilwood rep.
In another thread here, I think it was "rocktamas prime" (sp) asking about prop valves, and someone accurately stated that the engineers took every factor into consideration when designing a brake system. This includes calipers piston size, rotors, MC bore size, rod position on pedal, prop valve, etc. It was all designed to work together. Makes 100% complete sense. I think your issue is having a "mashup" of parts, all good in their own respect, but not intended to work together. From everything you have tried so far, the suggestions that stood out for me include verifying which hole the push rod is in. If an upper hole is available, try it. Bore size... often times the smaller 1" bore size is preferred as it takes less pedal effort, which is why wilwood suggested it on my manual brakes. I had a 66 Chrysler Newport in the early 80s with manual drums, there was a reason that brake pedal was 12" wide!! I thought it would be great to have pwr brakes so threw an OEM booster on it and the braking was no better maybe worse. Looking back, it was likely a push rod location or the booster not intended to work with that particular MC (improper rod length or similar) You could try removing the booster, but my guess is your larger bore MC bore is not going to be your friend in that scenario. Another thought is to remove the prop valve and connect lines directly to the MC. If you end up with too much rear brake, then install an adjustable valve on rear line. From everything stated here, my sense is that the vacuum pump is not going to get you where you want to be... Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
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68 Firebird-- Street/Strip - 400/461 Eagle Forged Bottom End & Ross Flat top pistons. KRE 325 CFM D port, Ultradyne 263/271 @.050, .4267 lift. Crower Solid roller lifters and 1.65 stainless rockers. Quickfuel 1000 on Torker2 intake and 2" open spacer. Hedman 1.75" headers. TH400 w/brake. Ford 9" w/3.80 gears & 28x9 Hoosier pro bracket drag radial. Best ET: 1.35 60ft, 6.29 @ 107.20 mph, 9.99 @132.33 mph. 3,300 race weight |
#20
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Another quick test... your engine would be pulling 20+ inches of vacuum while cruising. Leave the car in 1st gear, bring rpm up to 2500 or so then slam on the brakes. Does it stop like it should? If yes, maybe the vacuum pump could help at idle speeds.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
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68 Firebird-- Street/Strip - 400/461 Eagle Forged Bottom End & Ross Flat top pistons. KRE 325 CFM D port, Ultradyne 263/271 @.050, .4267 lift. Crower Solid roller lifters and 1.65 stainless rockers. Quickfuel 1000 on Torker2 intake and 2" open spacer. Hedman 1.75" headers. TH400 w/brake. Ford 9" w/3.80 gears & 28x9 Hoosier pro bracket drag radial. Best ET: 1.35 60ft, 6.29 @ 107.20 mph, 9.99 @132.33 mph. 3,300 race weight |
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