[Chief of the 60's]

As a drag racer, I found it very interesting how running the "recommended" amount of oil is too much and how much power is left on the table by taking as little as 1 quart out.

I suggest you watch the whole episode (#32) but here is a snippet - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOmMDF8sNro

[Murf]

Yes, I saw it. Very interesting. I think Enginemasters is the best show on Motor Trend TV.
I wish they did more episodes.

Murf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[1968GTO421]

Thanks, Chief, somethng I wouldn't have thought about.

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by 1968GTO421

Thanks, Chief, somethng I wouldn't have thought about.

Same here. We all know that too much oil agitates and aerates oil, but who would have guessed that "recommended" levels rob power and oil pressure. If I can get one of my race cars out to a track this year to do some test hits I may try making some passes with less oil and see what times I get.

[3fastgtos]

A local engine builder here used to run just two quarts in his small block Chevy. Was all fine till the low oil pan got a small hole worn into it.

[mgarblik]

I know a Pontiac class racer, very successful who dropped his oil level when a National Record, class victory, or big eliminator victory was on the line. He has won all of these over the years. I won't name him because I don't have his permission. We are talking 2.5 quarts of oil in a stock Pontiac pan and high RPM's. It has come back to bite him multiple times to the tune of total engine destruction in the traps. But the race was won, so it was worth it? I guess it all depends on close to the edge of the razor you want to run. There is horsepower at the razor's edge.

[Sirrotica]

I don't need every last HP when turning corners when I raced. I lost a 455 running only a quart low in an autocross event, lesson learned.

Longevity is much more important in closed circuit race, vs trying to gain every ounce of HP available. Ideally a dry sump system allows you to keep as much oil as possible off the rotating parts lending to less parasitic losses, while keeping the oiling system full of low aerated oil.

Not all classes or forms of racing allow dry sumps, but if you can use one, it's the best way I've seen to free up some HP while still keeping all the internal parts well lubricated.

Everyone thinks it's to expensive to worry about using a dry sump system, but compared to blowing an engine, it's cheap insurance.........

[1_Wild_Cat]

I saw that episode...l also found the one where the tested denting header tubes pretty interesting.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

I don't need every last HP when turning corners when I raced. I lost a 455 running only a quart low in an autocross event, lesson learned.

Longevity is much more important in closed circuit race, vs trying to gain every ounce of HP available. Ideally a dry sump system allows you to keep as much oil as possible off the rotating parts lending to less parasitic losses, while keeping the oiling system full of low aerated oil.

Not all classes or forms of racing allow dry sumps, but if you can use one, it's the best way I've seen to free up some HP while still keeping all the internal parts well lubricated.

Everyone thinks it's to expensive to worry about using a dry sump system, but compared to blowing an engine, it's cheap insurance.........

I've wondered about using an Accusump for this kind of situation...has anyone used one in a Pontiac? https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/accusump

[ZeGermanHam]

Originally Posted by Stuart

I've wondered about using an Accusump for this kind of situation...has anyone used one in a Pontiac? https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/accusump

I've seen it used on a '69 Trans Am.






Takes up a crazy amount of real estate in the engine bay. In my view, it's wildly overkill unless you are road racing.

[Steve C.]

Related to mgarblik post......

From Pete McCarthy book
Chapter 3
Free Horsepower (If you dare!)

"An engine properly restricted (limited oil to the top end), can normally run 1-1 1/2 to 2 quarts low on oil. Obviously, the lower the volume, the greater the chance of bearing failure. For a Pontiac stock or super stock engine, 5 quarts is quite safe. For a very important run, like a class final, or a record run, go to 4 quarts; but don't hit the breaks too hard"

Keep in mind in a stock oil pan with the engine at speed the sump is low on oil !


.

[242177P]

Drag cars aren't subjected to G-force!!
https://youtu.be/fv53RbvgfGc?t=12

Originally Posted by Steve C.

...

From Pete McCarthy book ... " ... but don't hit the breaks too hard"

Brakes. Pete definitely wrote brakes.

[Steve C.]

Yea, I meant to type brakes


.

[Steve C.]

Calculate Approximate G Force From Your 60 Foot Time

http://www.wallaceracing.com/g-force-60foot.php

Stopping can affect oil pressure and acceleration can affect fuel pressure.


.

[Formulajones]

Tony Bischoff did this very thing when dynoing dad's engine. He kept dropping the oil level and watching the pressure on the runs to find a happy spot. With a 4.750 crank that couldn't seem to fit any windage tray acceptably and didn't want to bother with a crank scraper, the oil level became a pretty important tool.

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Tony Bischoff did this very thing when dynoing dad's engine. He kept dropping the oil level and watching the pressure on the runs to find a happy spot. With a 4.750 crank that couldn't seem to fit any windage tray acceptably and didn't want to bother with a crank scraper, the oil level became a pretty important tool.

So how many quarts did he end up with to achieve that sweet spot?

[Formulajones]

Dad has a big pan on it. Don't recall the capacity of it but it's at least 8 quarts or more plus filter.

Tony found that 7 quarts with the filter was a good spot to be, it cut down on windage, picked up a little power, and oil pressure was solid throughout the pull. So that's what dad has been running the engine at for about 5 years now.

[ZeGermanHam]

Got wind that the photos I posted above of the Trans Am with oil accumulator may not be visible to others. Posting them again just in case. Sorry for the redundancy if you are able to see both sets.

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Dad has a big pan on it. Don't recall the capacity of it but it's at least 8 quarts or more plus filter.

Tony found that 7 quarts with the filter was a good spot to be, it cut down on windage, picked up a little power, and oil pressure was solid throughout the pull. So that's what dad has been running the engine at for about 5 years now.

I find this very interesting. Who would think that saving money on a quart of oil would lead to additional horsepower as well as better oil pressure.

[PontiacJim1959]

These guys make it seem like a new discovery. Not so. Chrysler engineering knew this back in the 60's - keep the oil level 6 inches away from the crank throws and no windage tray. Kicking up and churning oil aerates the oil and that can be a bad thing - as seen by the oil pressure.

What was not mentioned is a windage tray of any type. I know some aftermarket pans have one built in, but I assume this pan has none and was just an 8 qt (?)capacity pan and I don't know if the engine itself has any form of windage tray. To complete this type of test, and they may have it in another episode, would be to compare a pan/engine windage tray, crank scraper, or even a kick-out style pan at full 8 quarts for each test and then lower the oil 1 Qt at a time to show any improvements using any of the fore mentioned changes or combinations of them.

The Chrysler engineers were top notch and knew how to extract every HP out of an engine. That was what put the Hemi on the map and won so many races that NHRA had to introduce the "dial in" type racing where you had to post a dial-in, ie how fast your car was going to run the 1/4 mile. By doing this, you were essentially racing against yourself. But this allowed a 4 cylinder 28 second 1/4 mile car to run against a 9 second 1/4 mile Hemi. The 28 second car got the difference in a "head start" and theoretically both cars would be equal at the finish line. Chrysler dropped out of factory racing and figured why spend all the money on going heads-up fast when you could soup up a Dodge Colt and win against any high dollar build. Stock and Super Stock racing was never the same.