[ta man]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

I agree.

I agree.....but to be brutally honest..this shouldn't be on you to figure out..its the engine builder..he screwed up twice. I'd pull it drive it to his door step drop it off..give him a month to make it right..or close the book on the deal.

[TedRamAirII]

Originally Posted by 64speed

I can’t believe how expensive oil filter cutters are. I mean I bought one for my engine obviously but Jesus it’s just a large tubing cutting. The cheapest one I found was from speedway motors with free shipping on amazon. Still 51 dollars. That’s ridiculous

$43 at Summit, I though you were a Summit Man? LOL. I bought one at a swap meet, $10.. Its a must have tool!

[Va68goat]

ta man,
Though Paul hasn't returned any of my texts in months, it was pretty good of Jeff to find a local, respected engine builder near me. The guy has been to my house several times conducting tests and he repaired the significant vacuum leak that was at the intake. You're right, I think I've reached a point where it's no longer on me to figure out the problem with this motor. Believe me, I want this over as much as Paul and Jeff do but I'm not willing to spend any more money on making this motor right.

Paul E,
Thats a good idea.

Scott Stoneburg,
Paul says he broke this motor down after finding the bad distributor bushing. He originally said everything looked great but after closer inspection, he noticed the bearings needed to be replaced, the piston rings needed to be replaced, the crank needed to be polished and a light honing of the block was needed. Paul used Felpro gaskets for intake. The guy they sent over used Mr. Gasket gaskets and the motor is idling much better.

MarkS57,
I agree 100% with what you said about the distributor. I've found a few shops that have great reputations here that I would feel comfortable with leaving my motor. I'm just not willing to spend any more of my money on fixing this problem. I've done more than my share. As I said before, Jeff has been pretty cool with finding a local guy to me to look at this motor. Jeff is taking care of him. I do appreciate that!

[TedRamAirII]

Originally Posted by Gary H

I know this isn't much help but it sounds like valve train noise to me. Have you tried removing one plug wire at a time while it's running to see is the noise changes on a given cylinder?

I agree Gary, its too slow of a knock to be Crank Speed Related. I stated long ago to crank it up cold, and get a hand on the engine and FEEL for the knock, Valve covers, Valley Pan, Etc. It has been stated by people here,in the know, that its near the rear/ Distributor area. The Valley Pan is the only item near the distributor that could transmit any cam speed rhythmic noise. 20 minutes and that valley pan could be off. After the engine being apart, I cant imagine it being anything "catastrophic".

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Paul E

Take an oil sample and send it in. The results will tell you more about if something is rubbing than most other things. cost is likely under $30. Make sure to take mid stream

This is probably a pretty good idea to find out if there is metal circulating in the oil and what type of metal it is. If nothing else it will give anyone tearing into the engine an indicator of where to look.

From Blackstone Labs how oil analysis can show a problem before it becomes a larger problem:

Are you changing your oil often enough? Too often? Is synthetic oil really worth it? When it comes to the engine, it can be hard to know what’s going on without tearing it down…until now.
Oil analysis can identify any problems developing long before they cause you an expensive headache, and provide lots of other information too. Can you run the oil longer than the manual says? Will one brand of oil perform better than another? Is there any contamination in the oil? Are your oil and air filters doing a good job? An oil analysis can answer these questions and more. Let hard data tell you what you need to know about what’s going in inside your engine. Request your free test kit today!

Under their spectroscope even metal particles smaller than can be seen with the naked eye show up and are identified to what type of metal is wearing and how much metal is in the oil compared to normal traces from wear within normal circumstances.

Link to Blackstone Labs in Fort Wayne Indiana:

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/

For roughly $30 it can be a very good diagnostic tool in this case.

[Va68goat]

TedRamAirII,
We checked the valley pan for witness marks several times and I imagine Paul recently checked when he broke the motor down. As for being catastrophic... I hope not but it sure sounds terrible. It's bad when someone hears the motor for the first time and their first question is "Why is it knocking like that"? There's just no way I'm willing to live with that knocking noise.

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by TedRamAirII

I agree Gary, its too slow of a knock to be Crank Speed Related. I stated long ago to crank it up cold, and get a hand on the engine and FEEL for the knock, Valve covers, Valley Pan, Etc. It has been stated by people here,in the know, that its near the rear/ Distributor area. The Valley Pan is the only item near the distributor that could transmit any cam speed rhythmic noise. 20 minutes and that valley pan could be off. After the engine being apart, I cant imagine it being anything "catastrophic".

Do it with a long screwdriver with the handle in your ear.

[Va68goat]

ponjohn,
We've done that numerous times and the signature has always been in the same location. It's always been around the distributor. My buddies have always believed that it's in the lower end of the motor.

[HWYSTR455]

Although it's idling much better, it still has some type of miss. Maybe the PCV, I'm not sure, but feel it should still be addressed. And not saying it will correct the knock, just saying it still needs to be addressed.

Would also like to see what a vacuum gauge reads now. It was bouncing before.

I guess it's possible it could be a valley pan contact thing still, but it has been looked at a couple times, maybe missed it, but I don't think so.

You can put your hand, a screwdriver, whatever on the engine, but you still can't tell exactly where it's coming from, only the general area it's coming from, and can't count how many times that's been done. A lot.

I guess it's possible it could still be a cam/cam gear issue, but believe that's been checked before both times it was torn down.

A sloppy wrist pin is also a very good possibility, but that obviously means it needs to come apart to check. So you want to check and correct everything else before you go down that road.

.

[Va68goat]

HWYSTR455,
I doubt it's the valley pan. I think you even looked at that along with a few other guys and Paul looked at it several times. The only common denominator with the guys that have have been helping me with the motor is that none of them have totally disassembled the motor and inspected it. I don't think that's going to happen either because we already have over 165 hours on diagnosis time on the motor. Paul has been speaking to the guy they found to look at the motor so I'm hoping progress will be made.

What did you see in the video what makes you believe there is a miss?

[Mike Davis]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

HWYSTR455,


What did you see in the video what makes you believe there is a miss?

It's obvious there is a miss. Watch the movement of the engine in the video. Every so often it shakes more than just a cam lope.
To me it sounds like valvetrain clearance noise. Either the lifters contacting the valley pan, rockers touching the valve covers etc.
With the breather in the rear of the valve cover have you checked to make sure they are not contacting the rockers?

[HWYSTR455]

Rocker contacting the breather. Hm. You know, I don't think anyone has ever checked the breathers for contact, and I know those breathers come with their' own grommets, and do appear to hang down into the cover more than others I've seen.

That's easy enough to check Joe, pull that one out on the passenger side and see if there's any witness marks. Dang, wouldn't that be an easy fix.

Yes, in the vids it's obvious there's still a miss. Engine shake is the dead giveaway.


.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Appears to have one cylinder not hitting with the same amount of punch as the others.

The idle mixture screw over #1 and #3 will be a balancing act at best with the PCV hooked like it is. Make #1 hit strong and #3 will be rich. Make #3 hit strong and #1 will be lean.

Look back at one of the old videos with the 870 carburetor. The engine ran a little smoother.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeOqYtY0Dng

Clay

[Va68goat]

Mike Davis,
Definitely not hitting the breather. When we ran the motor last weekend, we pulled the breather off and the knocking noise was still present. We checked the breather early last year as well. We checked if the lifters were hitting the valley pan several times and that wasn't it. I'm pretty sure when Paul had the motor apart this last time, he would have looked for that. The rockers are not hitting the valve covers. We checked that that last year and Paul checked the clearance prior to even sending the motor the first time. That is why he suggested the thicker valve cover gaskets.

HWYSTR455,
No way to the breather. That was checked several times. I think all the easy diagnosing has been done. It's been 2 years and no matter what, the same knocking noise has been present. There was no way to hear the knocking noise while it was on the dyno in Arizona with no mufflers. This is becoming like Groundhog Day.

[455GRIN]

Another lost driving season, you need to found a cheap replacement motor off craigslist so you can start enjoying that beautiful GTO.
A 3rd party needs to open it and get it figured out. The engine builder had 2 chances, and it cost you time and more money.

Does anybody have a spare motor that could get our Pontiac buddy rolling again?

[Va68goat]

455GRIN,
I'm a pretty patient guy and I know I'm new to messing around with these old cars but I think with over 165 hours of instructed diagnosis of this motor given by the builder, I think it's time to stop looking for a mistake that we "could" have done hooking up the motor and start worrying about whats going on inside the motor. We've spent a lot of time, energy and money doing test after test looking for a faulty part or a install mistake and not enough energy is being spent looking for a mistake on the build. Considering this motor had a catastrophic failure on the dyno, I'm willing to bet that is the root of this problem.

I thought about looking for another motor to throw in there but thats just more money and not what I paid for. One way or another...This motor will get right. It's just a shame that we're spinning our wheels looking for a mistake on our end when 165 hours has proven it's not on this end!

[455GRIN]

VA68goat, I agree that's not what you paid, you desire a strong running motor. But that motor has a bad knock, needs to come out, put on a test stand, if noise is still there, motor has to come apart. Not sure who or how at this point, hope Jeff's guy gets figured out.
Lifes too short, someone has a motor to get you going for the short term. It appears that motor will be down for awhile.
Good luck we are hoping for the best

[Va68goat]

455GRIN,
I appreciate that. I'm hopeful that the right thing will be done to get this motor right. I have no doubt this motor will need to be torn down. Jeff's guy is pretty damn good and hopefully it will get resolved. As I said before, I guarantee Jeff and Paul want this nightmare to end just as much as I do but I don't think any customer would accept the motor as is.

[scott70]

Originally Posted by 455GRIN

VA68goat, I agree that's not what you paid, you desire a strong running motor. But that motor has a bad knock, needs to come out, put on a test stand, if noise is still there, motor has to come apart. Not sure who or how at this point, hope Jeff's guy gets figured out.
Lifes too short, someone has a motor to get you going for the short term. It appears that motor will be down for awhile.
Good luck we are hoping for the best

+1. This is the reality of the situation unfortunately. Sounds like you've done alot and checked all the easy, stupid things that could be making the noise. Good to check those things first. The motor has been apart and back together but obviously the problem is being overlooked each time. I get what you're saying about all the time and money that has been spent but the reality is it's going to be internal and that means the motor is coming out. You have more patience than me because I'd want to be driving that goat and comes a time when I wash my hands of someone I'm relying on and move on to someone else. I hope the guy can figure it out but that motor is coming back out and there's no time like the present. I'm a realist,,, not much of a optimist. It's been too long.

[adynes]

Is it possible it's an intake lifter refusing to pump up or with excessive leakage, making the noise and causing the rough idle? The noise honestly sounds "healthier" than a lifter in the videos, but videos and phone/laptop speakers don't always sounds the same as in person. Sounds more like piston noise to me from the videos...