[Scarebird]

a pic is worth a thousand words - heh.

try the trick with drilled bleeder screws - also see if fluid is drooling out the bleed ports when the screws are removed. We usually recommend adjustable prop valves.

[rexs73gto]

There is 1 other way that was used on the line at Studabaker back in the early 50's. My dad worked on the brake line at that time & the way they did it was to hang a bottle with brake fluid in it with a line inside the bottle & the other end was attached to the bleed screw. You leave the bleed screw open & pump the brakes about 5-6 times. This way every time you pushed on the brake peddle you would push air & fluid out & when you let up on the brake you would pull the fresh fluid back in the wheel cylinder & lines. Back then they didn't have calipers. But you would do this to each wheel starting with the right rear going to the left rear , then the right front, & last was the left front. This is the correct way to bleed brakes. NOT RR, LF, LFR & RFT. You bleed brakes by going to the farthest one away & then the next farthest away & so on & son. Doing it the way my dad did when at Studdy, it only takes 1 person to do it & can be done in about 15 min's . Remember if you do it this way to do 1 wheel at a time & don't try to do all of them at once. Also like I said in my 1st post GRAVITY BLEEDING is always the best way to start as the fluid will always find a way out on it's own & all you need to do is keep an eye on the level of fluid to make sure it doesn't go dry while doing it.

[lust4speed]

I spent a week in hell when first getting the drag car ready. Long story short the bleeder valves on "top" of the rear calipers were not really the highest point on the 2-piston caliper. Went through everything a dozen times. After taking the caliper apart it was apparent that while the bleed screw on the outside was the highest point, the drilled passage to the chamber was a 1/4" down from the top on the inside. This insured that there was always an air pocket trapped inside. After finding that out we put the caliper back together, undid one of the mounting bolts and rotated the caliper enough that the inside passage was the highest point. Several big bubbles and we finally had a solid pedal.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by lust4speed

I spent a week in hell when first getting the drag car ready. Long story short the bleeder valves on "top" of the rear calipers were not really the highest point on the 2-piston caliper. Went through everything a dozen times. After taking the caliper apart it was apparent that while the bleed screw on the outside was the highest point, the drilled passage to the chamber was a 1/4" down from the top on the inside. This insured that there was always an air pocket trapped inside. After finding that out we put the caliper back together, undid one of the mounting bolts and rotated the caliper enough that the inside passage was the highest point. Several big bubbles and we finally had a solid pedal.

Now that is some serious meat to chew on! I threw in the towel and turned the brake bleed over to anther shop to trouble shoot and will pass this along to them. My bleeders screws face rear so I would pull the rear bolt and swing the back of the caliper down?

[lust4speed]

Don't think you can make an exact determination without taking the caliper apart and physically checking. It might be easier to just undo a bolt and tilt the caliper one way and bleed a little, and then put that bolt back in and tilt the other way while bleeding. Might not be the problem, but worth a try when everything else has been tried several times. I was on the third master cylinder and had replaced all the soft lines before finding the offset bleed passages.

[rexs73gto]

There is another way to bleed those calipers if there not the highest point. You will need a pressure bleeder & with enough pressure in the system it will fill the calipers up completely & just open the bleeder to let the air out & close the bleeder when all the air is out.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by rexs73gto

There is another way to bleed those calipers if there not the highest point. You will need a pressure bleeder & with enough pressure in the system it will fill the calipers up completely & just open the bleeder to let the air out & close the bleeder when all the air is out.

Yeah, I guess the MityVac should have taken that issue out of the equation.

[lust4speed]

We were using a pressure system, and all together probably went through 3 quarts of brake fluid in the doomed process. I can say that we really had the system flushed out.

[rexs73gto]

Well at least it's clean now. LOL. Sorry I feel your pain as I've had a few over the years that have given me some problems ,,, but no where near what your having.

[sts]

Any updates?

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by sts

Any updates?

Day 40 of the hostage standoff continues. At this point, I am thinking I should have just gone to Midas or CarX.

After failing at reasoning with the shop, I went ballistic on one of the 2 partners. I pointed to every car in the shop saying "that wasn't here before me, that wasn't here before me, etc. I am sick and tired of this type of treatment as a customer. I don't care about your making the easy money on their brakes, radiators and A/C recharges. I want my car done. Why don't you want to take my money? Is it the wrong shade of green?"

I told him I will remove the car by Friday (last). If I cant drive it, I will tow it to another shop and he can deduct the towing expense from any work completed. He didn't follow my logic so I enlightened him that we entered into a contract. He agreed to perform the work in a reasonable amount of time for which I would pay him a reasonable amount for the work. His inability and unwillingness to perform the work will result in my incurring additional towing expenses and if necessary I would take him to court. I gave him a deadline of Friday (last) to complete the work which he agreed to. They finally got started and swapped the rear springs out, installed the throttle cable and trans kickdown switch and installed the rear (long) and two front brake lines.

On Thursday, the money partner called me to advise the brake lines were not the correct set and did not fit and they could not install the new transmission cooler lines as the headers on the car interfered with the fit. I asked what the issue was with the brake lines and was told they don't line up with the prop valve mounted under the master. He told me he contacted Inline Tube and the set I provided them to install did not have a valid Part# and Inline Tube had no idea what set of lines I had. I went to the shop immediately and the owner showed me the box with the Part# ... it was the box the trans cooler lines came in. I told him that was was an honest mistake he made and Inline Tube should have recognized the Part# as theirs for the trans cooler lines.

I asked him to show me the issue with the brake lines. The 3 lines were stubbed right where they belonged. I quickly screwed the prop valve to the bracket, threaded the 3 lines into the prop valve and then screwed in the 2 short lines from the master to the prop valve. I asked what the issue was and he told me one of the mechanics said the master cylinder fittings did not line up and were the wrong sizes. I crossed the two lines like an X slipped the bracket onto the booster studs and threaded the fittings into the master cylinder which all took about a minute.

I looked at him and said "You really need to have a talk with your guys if they couldn't figure that out. I don't do this for a living and I can figure it out. Can you finish the damn car already?"

The owner was very apologetic and assured me they will wrap it up and was very upset his other partner had told him the brakes lines were FUBAR.

This is a shop who is doing a mini restoration on an XKE (engine bay detailing, clutch, cooling, wiring and rebuilding the triple SU Carbs), an LS motor/trans/vintage air swap into a 56 Chevy Post Sedan, front disc conversion and top end on a 1968 Mustang and a 502/TH400/12 Bolt install in a 1966 Chevy Impala.

As bad as all the above sounds, you have no idea how bad some of the so-called " performance shops" in my area are. I had a shop highly recommended by a Pontiac guy a while back. One of their mechanics had crewed for Arnie Beswick and assured me he could work out my steady throttle carb surging problem. I left the car with them for a carb tune and dist curve session on their chassis dyno. For reasons I still can't understand, they took the hood off my car, and in the process scratched the top of both fenders with the hood and bent both corners of the chrome hood edge molding (standing it up on the floor). They zero lashed my rockers for me and misaligned the valve cover gaskets splashing oil all over the engine compartment and burning it on the headers. When they put the hood back on, they misaligned it and scraped the edge of the hood and the front fender on top of everything else.

[HWYSTR455]

And those people probably have been 'doing it' for 30 years. Wrong that is. When people tell me how long they've been 'doing it', it immediately puts up a red flag for me.

How did I get into 'hobby' cars? For this exact reason, having to fix stuff that the 'pros' screw up, and/or not being able to find a competent shop.

Sorry to hear the troubles you're going through, I know it's painful.

.

[Inogame]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

Day 40 of the hostage standoff continues. At this point, I am thinking I should have just gone to Midas or CarX.

After failing at reasoning with the shop, I went ballistic on one of the 2 partners. I pointed to every car in the shop saying "that wasn't here before me, that wasn't here before me, etc. I am sick and tired of this type of treatment as a customer. I don't care about your making the easy money on their brakes, radiators and A/C recharges. I want my car done. Why don't you want to take my money? Is it the wrong shade of green?"

I told him I will remove the car by Friday (last). If I cant drive it, I will tow it to another shop and he can deduct the towing expense from any work completed. He didn't follow my logic so I enlightened him that we entered into a contract. He agreed to perform the work in a reasonable amount of time for which I would pay him a reasonable amount for the work. His inability and unwillingness to perform the work will result in my incurring additional towing expenses and if necessary I would take him to court. I gave him a deadline of Friday (last) to complete the work which he agreed to. They finally got started and swapped the rear springs out, installed the throttle cable and trans kickdown switch and installed the rear (long) and two front brake lines.

On Thursday, the money partner called me to advise the brake lines were not the correct set and did not fit and they could not install the new transmission cooler lines as the headers on the car interfered with the fit. I asked what the issue was with the brake lines and was told they don't line up with the prop valve mounted under the master. He told me he contacted Inline Tube and the set I provided them to install did not have a valid Part# and Inline Tube had no idea what set of lines I had. I went to the shop immediately and the owner showed me the box with the Part# ... it was the box the trans cooler lines came in. I told him that was was an honest mistake he made and Inline Tube should have recognized the Part# as theirs for the trans cooler lines.

I asked him to show me the issue with the brake lines. The 3 lines were stubbed right where they belonged. I quickly screwed the prop valve to the bracket, threaded the 3 lines into the prop valve and then screwed in the 2 short lines from the master to the prop valve. I asked what the issue was and he told me one of the mechanics said the master cylinder fittings did not line up and were the wrong sizes. I crossed the two lines like an X slipped the bracket onto the booster studs and threaded the fittings into the master cylinder which all took about a minute.

I looked at him and said "You really need to have a talk with your guys if they couldn't figure that out. I don't do this for a living and I can figure it out. Can you finish the damn car already?"

The owner was very apologetic and assured me they will wrap it up and was very upset his other partner had told him the brakes lines were FUBAR.

This is a shop who is doing a mini restoration on an XKE (engine bay detailing, clutch, cooling, wiring and rebuilding the triple SU Carbs), an LS motor/trans/vintage air swap into a 56 Chevy Post Sedan, front disc conversion and top end on a 1968 Mustang and a 502/TH400/12 Bolt install in a 1966 Chevy Impala.

As bad as all the above sounds, you have no idea how bad some of the so-called " performance shops" in my area are. I had a shop highly recommended by a Pontiac guy a while back. One of their mechanics had crewed for Arnie Beswick and assured me he could work out my steady throttle carb surging problem. I left the car with them for a carb tune and dist curve session on their chassis dyno. For reasons I still can't understand, they took the hood off my car, and in the process scratched the top of both fenders with the hood and bent both corners of the chrome hood edge molding (standing it up on the floor). They zero lashed my rockers for me and misaligned the valve cover gaskets splashing oil all over the engine compartment and burning it on the headers. When they put the hood back on, they misaligned it and scraped the edge of the hood and the front fender on top of everything else.

Holy crap, what a nightmare.

Funny story, I ordered lines from inline tube as well, also got fuel and trans lines...
They sat for a while as there was other work to be completed first and when we finally got to them we forgot about ordering the trans lines. Should have seen the looks on our faces as we were trying to figure out what the heck these lines were... lol

[Richie Hoffman]

Last car i converted tried 4 combination valves all new couldn't get brakes right put used combo valve in all perfect now Chinese junk I do a lot of conversions between bad combo valves or defective masters working on cars for a living is an adventure

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by Richie Hoffman

Last car i converted tried 4 combination valves all new couldn't get brakes right put used combo valve in all perfect now Chinese junk I do a lot of conversions between bad combo valves or defective masters working on cars for a living is an adventure

Yeah. my gut tells me the prop valve and/or the master were the root of the problem. I bought a genuine GM prop valve this time and picked up a Duralast master from Autozone. The master is for a 1969 Z28 Camaro w. disc option. It has the 1-1/8" bore and the correct 1/2 and 9/16 line fittings. Lot cheaper than the no name masters on eBay and readily exchangeable over the counter if bad.

If I can just get these dorks to finish up, I'll see if it all works. Shame I ran out of time at the other shop where I was doing the work myself when they closed the doors. I did a lot of work to the car and was so close to driving it out until I hit the wall with the brakes.

While at the other shop, I figured since I had been screwed around and lost the summer and fall anyway, I would just work on the car until 1) they threw me out or 2) they closed up shop. I started late in the fall last year and put in an alum rad, new trans cooler, water pump, alternator, belts, hoses, new intake, front and rear tubular control arms, gas shocks, F&R sway bars, tie rod ends, idler arm and centerlink, detailed painted the spindles, new dust shields, rear disc conversion w. new master cyl, new front calipers. rotors and wheel bearings, all new brake hard lines and hoses, jeep steering box conversion, detailed and rewired engine compartment, new fan shroud, fuel pump under hood hard lines, new return line for the fuel pump, detail painted the exhaust sys front to back, new hangers and galv clamps, detailed the rear end housing, power washed the underside and undercoated the chassis and floor pans. I also installed an HID headlight conversion but bailed on it as they ran wayyyy too hot for my comfort.

When I downsized and bought a condo, I wound up with a one car garage that is so tight I can barely get in and of the car much less work on it so I am at the shop's mercy.

[Skip Fix]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

And those people probably have been 'doing it' for 30 years. Wrong that is. When people tell me how long they've been 'doing it', it immediately puts up a red flag for me.

How did I get into 'hobby' cars? For this exact reason, having to fix stuff that the 'pros' screw up, and/or not being able to find a competent shop.

Sorry to hear the troubles you're going through, I know it's painful.

.

Yep that is how I've gotten into doing most stuff myself. Then is it is not right the only dumbass that id it was me!

In doing the suspension on the 81 TA we had painted after someone hit the door being underneath it and seeing what a half a$$ job they did bolting the fender up etc it just pisses me off not to do it right.

[mgarblik]

I have been following this thread. There is no way I am going to make excuses for the problems you have been through. I will say that I have spent 35 years teaching the guys in the shops you are having so much trouble with. Over the decades, I can point to a few trends. With experience, comes finesse. You can't really teach it. It comes from experience and caring about doing things the right way. When new students come into the field nowdays, they typically have NO MECHANICAL APTITUDE at all. They may like cars, read magazines and try to mimic the Fast and Furious. Most have never held a tool in their hand in their life and have never had a male roll model let alone a father. These issues make it tough but are still no excuse for the issues you are having with a relatively simple brake system conversion. I hope it all works out for you.

[Richie Hoffman]

Most problems are the parts themselves

[NeighborsComplaint]

Update:

Shop called me yesterday with the "We have some good news and some bad news" lead in. "The good news is everything is done and we drove it to the front end alignment shop (less than a mile away). Alignment went fine and the car drives just amazing. The bad news is on the way beck to the shop, the brake pedal got a little soft ..."

I'm waiting for the " ... and we rear ended the car in front of us." but it turns out the passenger side rear caliper has a slight leak from the seal around the e brake actuator.

I picked up an '80-'85 Cadillac Eldorado caliper from Autozone that matches what I have and will have the car back sometime early next week. I had warranty on the calipers but by the time I ship the bad caliper back to Pirate Jack's, have them process and send me a new one it will be Christmas so I just bought a new (rebuilt) one and will use the old one as my core exchange. Chances are they would give me grief anyway as I had painted the calipers and in my experience, companies will claim the warranty is voided by painting (paint on the piston or in the bore, solvents affected the seals, etc.).

I will have to paint the new caliper on the car (I painted the others in black) as I want it mounted, bled and working before painting just in case it too is defective.

Close but no cigar yet. Oh yeah, the shop says the trick to bleeding the rears (as others had mentioned) was to unbolt the calipers and rotate them on the rotor while bleedingvuntil the bleed screw was at the high point, not just facing up as the instructions indicated. No issues whatsoever. I can laugh now about the 2 gallons of brake fluid I went through trying to get the air out of the system on my own.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Finally done.

See http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=791874