[First Bird]

I will be going EFI with timing control this summer. I've been reading everything I can find on the internet and this forum. There are at least 5 of you who have converted to fuel injection. I'm going to list the parts I think I need given the current build, which is a

1968 Firebird, 455, KRE heads, 10:1 comp, Crower 60919, TKO600, Small Body HEI, Qjet, 1/2" fuel supply and 3/8" return lines, Mallory fuel pressure regulator, many ground cables. Lokar throttle cable, frame mount electric fuel pump with relay and #12 wire, Pertronix Rev Limiter, 180* T-stat, Bosch O2 sensor in header collector, AFR gauge

FITech 30002
Tanks Inc TM32-T tank
Walbro 255 lph in-tank pump
Floatless sender T-GML (?)
MSD 8861 HEI bypass cable
10 micron fuel filter
Cork gasket material
Teflon lined fuel line and fittings

These are the things I'm not sure about:
Is the tank or fuel pickup baffled?

I want FITech ECU to control this distributor. Can it? if I lock mech advance, remove vac advance, bypass HEI module using only white and green wires., and phase properly?

I have a fairly new fuel level sender. Can I just use it in the Tanks tank? If not, do you recommend the floatless sender?

Do I need a fuel pressure regulator in addition to the one in the throttle body?

Will the rev limiter still work?

Is that thermostat going to work, or do I need 195* ?

Anything that helped you that I should consider?
Thanks in advance for your advice.

[65madgoat]

I highly suggest you using a new Camaro SS fuel pump with a Vaporworx kit so you won't need a return line.

And then you won't have heated fuel going back in the tank and heating up the fuel pump.

Plus it will save you money not needing 16 feet of hose and AN fittings for a return line.

Call Carl at Vaporworx to get set up installing/using a Camaro SS pump and you will be all dialed in then.

https://www.vaporworx.com/

[JLMounce]

The FiTech has a built in coil driver, so yes it can directly control the timing, even without a CDI box.

You can try the new sender, but the Tanks Inc tank does have slight variations from the factory tank. If you do need to acquire a new sender, absolutely go with the floatless sender. You'll need the 6" length version.

You do not need an additional pressure regulator.

You don't need an external rev limiter if you are having FiTech control the timing. It has both a fuel and spark cut built in. This is actually better than the spark scatter type rev limiters you see on some tachs and in some ignition boxes. Instead of purposely causing a mis-fire, the spark and fuel simply stop.

The 180 degree stat will be fine. Fuel learn occurs in the FiTech at 150 degrees water temp.

Probably pick up an AC Delco water temp sensor, the supplied unit is typically not very good.

For timing control with the HEI, here's the basic run-down.

1. lock out mechanical advance. (some people make/buy a lockout plate, or just weld them together)
2. lock out any vacuum advance if present.
3. get an "hei bypass" wire kit to convert the pickup to vr 2 wire.
4. remove ignition module
5. run black coil wire from fitech to the hei coil negative

There are some things you should be very sure of during the install that cause a lot of issues for people. Make sure these things are right and you typically don't have issues.

1. The car needs good wiring, specifically grounds. If your car currently has any wiring issues, correct those before installing the FiTech
2. Make sure the car has zero exhaust leaks. Check the header/manifold gaskets carefully for even minor imperceptible leaks, as well as header flanges and manifold downpipe connections. Any exhaust leak upstream of the oxygen sensor will cause erratic fueling.
3. Oxygen sensor placement needs to be as close to the cylinder head as possible while "seeing" as many cylinders as possible. That would typically be about an inch and a half to 2 inches aft of the pipe merge at a header collector, or the same distance down from a manifold downpipe. The o2 sensor wants to be in as straight a shot of the exhaust stream as possible, so don't put it directly before or after a major bend. It additionally needs a minimum of 18" of pipe behind it before exhaust exit.
4. The o2 bung, gasket and clamps provided are not adequate for long term use. They or only really good enough to get you fired up and make the trip to an exhaust shop to have the bung welded. This is specifically true with a header car that has a 3 or 3.5" collector. The bung is designed around a 2.5" pipe diameter, so even with the gasket in place, it will never seal a 3 or 3.5" exhaust pipe until it is welded in place.

If the car is going to an NHRA sanctioned track at all, find a way to use your auxiliary throttle return spring. Although the FiTech has dual springs as part of it's linkage, NHRA rules will still mandate that you have an auxiliary throttle return spring.

[64speed]

The Tanks Inc. tanks are nice. I have one.

[grivera]

The tanks inc tank is baffled, encasing the fuel pump

[FrankieT/A]

As JLMounce suggested replace the Coolant Temperature Sensor with an AC Delco while performing the install. Very important !!!

[Formulajones]

My opinion the fuel system is the most important feature in an EFI setup for longevity and reliability, don't cheap out in this area..

For sure go with the Tank Inc setup and put the pump in the tank. No question that's hands down the best, most reliable setup. Keeps the pump cooler, quieter, and more consistent. There is a reason the OEM has done this since the beginning of EFI.

I'm also a big fan of return lines. The initial cost of another 20 feet of line and a few fittings is small verses the benefits. Keeping the fuel circulating keeps it cooler. I'm not a fan at all of any external electric pumps. Especially if you drive the car even semi frequently. I generally only got 2-3 years of use out of them driving sparingly, and on a daily driver not much more than a year that logged about 16,000 miles. They tend to stop working at the most inconvenient time too, like when it's 110 outside and you're still 80 miles from home lol. Continuous running with an external pump gets them extremely hot, especially here in the desert South West.

Also, you're original fuel sender is not compatible to the Tanks Inc tank. I highly recommend the floatless sender. I've installed a couple of them now and they are worlds better than the ball on a stick.

[HWYSTR455]

Why FI Tech? They are owned by Holley now, and will be depreciated here soon, due to the Sniper lineup. Just get a Sniper. HyperSpark distributor and coil, it comes with a coil driver too if you don't want to run the HyperSpark CD box (which is a 'street' MSD box repackaged). All plug and play.

Totally agree on the return line, pumps do fail, ask folks who have had them fail. Take any and all precautions you can.

.

[JLMounce]

Do you have documentation on that? Not that I don't think it's possible and it definitely fits Holley Group's MO, but I've never seen or been able to find a press release about it, there's no indication on FiTech's site relating to an acquisition by Holley, nor does FiTech appear in Holley Group's brand's listing on their site.

At the end of the day, both systems are good and both suffer from some of the same issues like crappy chinese sensors and lack of customer support. It's a pick your poison type deal.

[First Bird]

Jason, Will, Grivera and Frankie - I sure appreciate your suggestions. Thanks for taking the time to impart your experience and knowledge.
I copy you on float less sender, AC Delco CTS, keep and convert distributor, 180 t-stat fine, aux throttle spring, no pressure regulator, no rev limiter
Formula Jones I hear you on those external electric pumps going out in 2-3 years. Noisy too - can't wait for that whine to be gone.

I agree return fuel setups are superior. The 1/2" fuel supply line must be replaced. It is four or five sections of braided steel. I can go with a more continuous run because the pump and regulator will be gone. The return is 3/8' steel and used to be the supply.
Will 3/8" supply be enough? Did you go steel or lined braided?

I understand electrical noise is very bad for the EFI signaling. I think this car's electrical system is dialed in. Four large cables ground firewall, frame, block and starter. When I did a new harness I went with MAD Electrical philosophy of power distribution blocks (PDB) and fusible links and the entire system has been Faultless from go. Impedance at a PDB supplied by a 00 cable should be near zero.

I will double check for exhaust leaks - I can see where that would make AFR readings inaccurate. The O2 sensor in the header collector is placed as Jason specified as best practice.
What about fuel pressure and AFR gauges? Do you guys run them? Seems they could be helpful for tuning and troubleshooting.

Regarding ECU setup, are there some setting changes that benefit our big Pontiac engines compared to what I'm guessing is a default to 350 SBC?

Again, I'm grateful for your time.

Edit: As soon as I posted this, I saw the added posts about Holley acquiring FITech. Thanks for that heads up. Will verify but it definitely fits the MO

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by First Bird

Jason, Will, Grivera and Frankie - I sure appreciate your suggestions. Thanks for taking the time to impart your experience and knowledge.
I copy you on float less sender, AC Delco CTS, keep and convert distributor, 180 t-stat fine, aux throttle spring, no pressure regulator, no rev limiter
Formula Jones I hear you on those external electric pumps going out in 2-3 years. Noisy too - can't wait for that whine to be gone.

I agree return fuel setups are superior. The 1/2" fuel supply line must be replaced. It is four or five sections of braided steel. I can go with a more continuous run because the pump and regulator will be gone. The return is 3/8' steel and used to be the supply.
Will 3/8" supply be enough? Did you go steel or lined braided?

I understand electrical noise is very bad for the EFI signaling. I think this car's electrical system is dialed in. Four large cables ground firewall, frame, block and starter. When I did a new harness I went with MAD Electrical philosophy of power distribution blocks (PDB) and fusible links and the entire system has been Faultless from go. Impedance at a PDB supplied by a 00 cable should be near zero.

I will double check for exhaust leaks - I can see where that would make AFR readings inaccurate. The O2 sensor in the header collector is placed as Jason specified as best practice.
What about fuel pressure and AFR gauges? Do you guys run them? Seems they could be helpful for tuning and troubleshooting.

Regarding ECU setup, are there some setting changes that benefit our big Pontiac engines compared to what I'm guessing is a default to 350 SBC?

Again, I'm grateful for your time.

Edit: As soon as I posted this, I saw the added posts about Holley acquiring FITech. Thanks for that heads up. Will verify but it definitely fits the MO

I run 2 fuel pressure and an extra AFR gauge in my setup (sniper stealth) One fuel pressure is done with a Holley sender monitored through the touch screen that I don't trust (but that's another story) and a mechanical setup mounted on the cowl that I completely trust, and since that was there from the start I wanted to keep it. What I have isn't necessary and overkill for most, but you'll want to monitor fuel pressure in some way, either electronically through Fitech or a separate mechanical gauge, it's always a good idea.

On the AFR, I run an extra 02 sensor and gauge on the other side of the engine to monitor what's going on, and use the Sniper AFR (it does it's fueling) on the other side of the engine. It's been interesting if nothing else. Seems the side the Sniper does it's fueling on reads about .3-.4 points leaner than the passenger side AFR. Both are Bosch sensors. Again, not necessary, I just like to know what's going on.

[JLMounce]

Tom,
The 3/8" (-6an) feed and return line will be fine for your power output. At 58 psi it will support up to about 750ish hp depending on how thirsty the engine is. Both my Firebird and my wife's Chevelle run Russell twist-lok hose and it's been easy to work with and has held up well. It's been on my firebird since 2015 and well over 10,000 miles of use.

I pieced my fuel system together as I tried to cheap out early and do a frame mount kit. for my wife's chevelle, when we added the FiTech, I used this from Tanks Inc. https://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/p...rod/prd548.htm

The hand held will provide you with AFR information and it's as trustworthy as having a secondary wideband installed, in so far as they are both going to provide accurate information as long as they are installed correctly. I've never needed a fuel pressure gauge on either of my FiTech equipped vehicles, but if you run in to issues, you're correct that it helps troubleshooting.

There will always be some parameters that you're going to need to tweak. The most common is acceleration enrichment (accel pump). Typically what occurs after about a couple weeks of solid use and learning is that the driver will become more comfortable with how the car is working and start using the throttle more. You may see a lean tip-in followed by a rich over-correction that oscillates between rich/lean for a second before finally smoothing out. Both of my FiTech equipped cars needed tuning here and both were lean bog, although rich bog is also possible. You'll need to adjust this in reverse of what is occurring. Likely though you'll need to add fuel to the acceleration enrichment, as well as the fast accel enrichment and likely the dTPS gain modifier.

Since you have a manual and will have some clutch-in extreme low load situations, you may also need to adjust the decel fuel cut thresholds as you may see map settings low enough between shifts that the system thinks you're in off-throttle decel and will shut down fueling. This you need to tune by watching what your map is doing during clutch-in. Set the threshold a couple kPA below the lowest map reading you observe.

Other than those two areas, the systems are usually pretty good at reaching the defined parameters for run operation that you give it. I suggest keeping an eye on your fuel trims. If you're seeing very large adjustments to both the learn and the trim, this is an indication that you need to choose a different base map (cam table 1-4). Based on the cam you are running, I would start on cam table 2 and see what your idle and low load learn and trims look like. If you're seeing -20 or more in your learn after a couple weeks of driving, consider clearing the learn and resetting to cam table 3.

table 1 is for stock cams and will provide more fuel at low load while cam table 4 is for aggressive cams and will fuel leaner at low load. So just work opposite of what you're seeing the system do. If you're pulling a lot of fuel at low loads and adding fuel at high loads, you need a more aggressive cam table. If you're adding fuel at low loads and pulling fuel at high loads, you need a less aggressive table.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

At the end of the day, both systems are good and both suffer from some of the same issues like crappy chinese sensors and lack of customer support. It's a pick your poison type deal.

I'm dealing with that right now. Bought the expensive stainless Holley sensors to monitor oil pressure and fuel pressure.

Oil pressure sensor is screwed to the block right next to the MSD distributor, and the fuel pressure is screwed to the fuel rail on the side of the Sniper unit.

I was worried about RFI but the oil pressure sensor is doing just fine. Fuel pressure sensor on the other hand is jumping all over the place from 40-70 psi and does it so fast I had to log it and slow it down to actually read the numbers. Holley tech told me that has to be RFI, but how so if the oil is okay. Those fuel readings can't be correct, can't see how the unit can make fuel corrections with a huge swing in pressure like that but the car runs okay. (set pressure with mechanical gauge) Will be doing more diagnostic like isolating the sensor from the engine completely free of vibration and RFI etc.... but my gut tells me it's a faulty sensor. Because nothing has bothered that oil sensor, vibration, RFI or otherwise.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

Do you have documentation on that? Not that I don't think it's possible and it definitely fits Holley Group's MO, but I've never seen or been able to find a press release about it, there's no indication on FiTech's site relating to an acquisition by Holley, nor does FiTech appear in Holley Group's brand's listing on their site.

At the end of the day, both systems are good and both suffer from some of the same issues like crappy chinese sensors and lack of customer support. It's a pick your poison type deal.

Hm, I thought I saw they were bought, guess I was mistaken.

Kenneth W. Farrell

1997 - Started a small EFI company tuning and converting Stack style Hillborn mechanical injection to electronic EFI for the local hot rod crowd. I was then contacted by Mooneyes of Santa Fe Springs, Ca and partnered with Moon and moved shop to southern CA . While with Moon I developed a product called the “Smart Shift” and won Best Engineered New Product 2003 for the Smart Shift at SEMA and also Runner up Best Engineered New Product SEMA 2003 for TBI Injection. We also won Best Product NSRA 2003 for the throttle body
(2003) I partnered with Injection Logic, a small IT company working out of San Luis Obisbo and began developing what was the first Self Tuning Engine management system.
It took some time to get the pricing correct but user friendly was the answer and I knew that if we could do that first we could get the cost down later with volume.
2004 – Launched Retrotek Speed with Warren Duff who is currently an EFI engineer at Holley. Together we developed and patented the FIRST self learning throttle body EFI kit Patent #US 7,735,475 B2 and set the standard for which the industry is now following and which FiTech is now re-entering the market with its latest version.
2008 - Retrotek Speed was sold to Professional Products and was released under the name Powerjection and won 4 SEMA awards for their SELF tuning Injection as well as their ‘click to adjust’ PowerFire ignition, which I also hold a US patent for and a CDI Ignition system.
2010 - Designed the Fuel Injection system QFI for the company Quick Fuel Technologies for Fulham Engineering and worked as a consultant for Quick Fuel as well as Professional Products as recently as 2014.
2013 – present - Partnered back with long time colleagues at FIT in China to form what is currently FiTech EFI . Fitech EFI has now introduced the first $797 self learning EFI system. Complete ls self learning EFI packages and Hyperfuel Brand fuel accessories to round out the product lineup.
2018- FST


.

[HWYSTR455]

Sniper and other Holley EFI systems use GM sensors to my knowledge.


.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

Tom,
T
There will always be some parameters that you're going to need to tweak. The most common is acceleration enrichment (accel pump). Typically what occurs after about a couple weeks of solid use and learning is that the driver will become more comfortable with how the car is working and start using the throttle more. You may see a lean tip-in followed by a rich over-correction that oscillates between rich/lean for a second before finally smoothing out. Both of my FiTech equipped cars needed tuning here and both were lean bog, although rich bog is also possible. You'll need to adjust this in reverse of what is occurring. Likely though you'll need to add fuel to the acceleration enrichment, as well as the fast accel enrichment and likely the dTPS gain modifier.

Since you have a manual and will have some clutch-in extreme low load situations, you may also need to adjust the decel fuel cut thresholds as you may see map settings low enough between shifts that the system thinks you're in off-throttle decel and will shut down fueling. This you need to tune by watching what your map is doing during clutch-in. Set the threshold a couple kPA below the lowest map reading you observe.

Other than those two areas, the systems are usually pretty good at reaching the defined parameters for run operation that you give it. I suggest keeping an eye on your fuel trims. If you're seeing very large adjustments to both the learn and the trim, this is an indication that you need to choose a different base map (cam table 1-4). Based on the cam you are running, I would start on cam table 2 and see what your idle and low load learn and trims look like. If you're seeing -20 or more in your learn after a couple weeks of driving, consider clearing the learn and resetting to cam table 3.

table 1 is for stock cams and will provide more fuel at low load while cam table 4 is for aggressive cams and will fuel leaner at low load. So just work opposite of what you're seeing the system do. If you're pulling a lot of fuel at low loads and adding fuel at high loads, you need a more aggressive cam table. If you're adding fuel at low loads and pulling fuel at high loads, you need a less aggressive table.

It would be interesting to compare base fuel tables from Fitech to Holley.

So far I've found no need to touch accel entrichment, decal fuel cutoff as those have been fine. I found I've mainly had to heavily tweak the start up enrichment tables, both hot and cold as well as the initial prime shot and the IAC park position. Those seemed to be way off and made for very hard starting. But the fuel tables at cruise, throttle tip in and decel have looked really good on the Holley with fuel trims 0 to + or - 2 % So the base map on the street strip cam choice has been pretty good for dad's 571, even with a 261-265 @ .050 cam and using the 8 injector Stealth.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Sniper and other Holley EFI systems use GM sensors to my knowledge.


.

Here ya go, a picture of the $100 Holley stainless 3 prong sensors I'm having issues with. Honestly I'm not sure if it's a GM sensor or not. It's the same thing you can find all over the internet for as little as $16 though.

I'd be curious if it's the same thing supplied with Fitech stuff.

[First Bird]

HwyStr455 - Dang it. Thought I had the FiTech vs Holley thing figured out. I searched for any corporate press release re acquisition - nada. What is your source of this news?

Thanks Jason for all the setup info. No doubt will be referring to the parameters in your writeup.

FormulaJones - re the fuel P sender. Spitballing here but I wonder if the sensor is taking readings so often that it reads actual pressure fluctuations in the system. But most likely a bad sensor or RF. Bet you'd like to swap in a fresh sensor and see what happens.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by First Bird

HwyStr455 - Dang it. Thought I had the FiTech vs Holley thing figured out. I searched for any corporate press release re acquisition - nada. What is your source of this news?

Thanks Jason for all the setup info. No doubt will be referring to the parameters in your writeup.

FormulaJones - re the fuel P sender. Spitballing here but I wonder if the sensor is taking readings so often that it reads actual pressure fluctuations in the system. But most likely a bad sensor or RF. Bet you'd like to swap in a fresh sensor and see what happens.

Well, a mechanical gauge reads fine so I'm leery of the sensor. I really hope they aren't so sensitive that they won't settle down though, that might be problem.
That picture is actually one of my sensors for my own unit (I have 2 new sensors in the box) that I am going to swap onto dad's car just to check his and eliminate that possibility, but I have a feeling it's going to do the same thing.
I also have a 4' long -4 braided fuel pressure gauge line that I can hook the sensor to and completely isolate it from vibration and RFI and see what that does.

[Formulajones]

Here is a short video of a cold start. Oil pressure is top left, fuel pressure is top right.
$10 to anyone that can read that fuel pressure

https://youtu.be/bTaWq0Ykjtk