[Z Code 400]

I am always impressed with the parts offered by these guys, so I wanted to pose a question about some of their products.

I'm planning on using your sway bar brace, the 'G' braces and the 'tie' between them on my mostly street driven, 1975 Formula.

I already have upper and lower tubular control arms and tall upper and lower ball joints. I used urethane bushings on everything, front & rear, including the sway bars and shock mounts, because here lately, the rubber bushings just don't last anytime at all.

I'm not as concerned about road noise transmission as I am damaging the cowling (broken spot welds, etc.,) from the shock transmission from the 'G' braces. In some respects, I feel that a street car sees far more punsihment (from a chassis/suspension standpoint) than a race car, so this is a very important factor for me to consider.

I often drive my Formula to work which is 110 miles round trip daily.

I'm running 15 x 8" wheels with P255/60/15's all the way around, which gives some additional 'softness' in the overall ride quality.

Your input would be appreciated...Robert

[pro-tour79]

As mentioned I've had the G-braces on for 8years and the car was driven every day for many years, in fact I put about 70,000 miles on the car with G-braces, solid control arm bushings, connectors and solid body bushings.
The cowl area where the G-braces mount is 3 layers of sheet metal and the other mounting point is the fender bulk head so they do not attach to just sheet metal.

[roadrage david]

its about time he makes them for a first GEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!

[pro-tour79]

I would like to but I've looked at that from many angles and that single layer of sheet metal fire wall on the fisrt gens is not very strong, but I may have come up with something else

[Z Code 400]

Thanks....

Do the 'G' braces come with a 'back up plate' for mounting to the firewall? Or, will I need to make one???...Robert

[Rick Jones]

Robert, the firewall mounting point on the G braces is above the firewall lip and there is no back up plate included for the underside of the firewall lip. They are very solid, though, just using the included bolt, washer and locking nut. There was a small gap on my car between the G brace and the firewall lip so I used another washer in the gap so it didnt tweak any when I tightened it up.

Rick

[roadrage david]

Originally Posted by pro-tour79

I would like to but I've looked at that from many angles and that single layer of sheet metal fire wall on the fisrt gens is not very strong, but I may have come up with something else

Wel i sirgest you do that!!!!!!. nobody is making them for first gens. funny enoughf everything els hase been done in the pro-touring seen for the first gen............

[HWYSTR455]

Robert, I have the 'original' Herb Adams VSE 'Front Structure Kit' on my 71 since like 1983, and Herb only sold his with solid body bushings as a prerequisite. Not sure if that's because of the length of the bar itself and the fact that the solid bushings he uses were for a 1/2 inch drop or what, but that's the way he sold it.

Overall, the difference it VERY noticeable, and a great upgrade.

Anyway, with the solid bushings, frame connectors, and the 'g' bars, 'walking' in and out of parking lots, one tire at a time, there were times were the body would flex, and on 2 or 3 occassions I cracked a windshield where the lower tab meets the glass. My experiences.

To correct this, I added a 4-point roll bar, problem solved. It prevents the length of the body, the rockers/frame rails, from twisting along the length, if you can picture that. Granted, I push this car hard on the street, and I do have over a million miles on the body, and others may not experience the same issue....

I have over years noticed that the cowl area has taken some abuse, and there are some 'waves' in the cowl area arond where the bars bolt. This last time around, I took a piece of angle steel, welded it to the cowl lip and firewall, and then used grade 8 bolts spaced about 2 inches apart the entire length of the angle steel piece. My 'g' bars bolt to that, and it's certainly much stronger.

I will try to post a pic tonight when I get home if you would like. It's barely noticeable, and the only thing I had to do was notch it where the wiper motor is.


.

[Murf'sDad]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Robert, I have the 'original' Herb Adams VSE 'Front Structure Kit' on my 71 since like 1983, and Herb only sold his with solid body bushings as a prerequisite. Not sure if that's because of the length of the bar itself and the fact that the solid bushings he uses were for a 1/2 inch drop or what, but that's the way he sold it.

Overall, the difference it VERY noticeable, and a great upgrade.

Anyway, with the solid bushings, frame connectors, and the 'g' bars, 'walking' in and out of parking lots, one tire at a time, there were times were the body would flex, and on 2 or 3 occassions I cracked a windshield where the lower tab meets the glass. My experiences.

To correct this, I added a 4-point roll bar, problem solved. It prevents the length of the body, the rockers/frame rails, from twisting along the length, if you can picture that. Granted, I push this car hard on the street, and I do have over a million miles on the body, and others may not experience the same issue....

I have over years noticed that the cowl area has taken some abuse, and there are some 'waves' in the cowl area arond where the bars bolt. This last time around, I took a piece of angle steel, welded it to the cowl lip and firewall, and then used grade 8 bolts spaced about 2 inches apart the entire length of the angle steel piece. My 'g' bars bolt to that, and it's certainly much stronger.

I will try to post a pic tonight when I get home if you would like. It's barely noticeable, and the only thing I had to do was notch it where the wiper motor is.
.

I installed the Herb Adams solid sub-frame mounts years ago but didn't think I needed the braces. Now I'm considering them.

Your experience is interesting and I want to see those pix of your reinforced mounts.

Stewart

[HWYSTR455]

Ok, well lemme swing by the house for lunch then, and I'll dig up the pic and post it. You can run the solid mounts without running the 'Structural Support Kit', but not the other way around, per the VSE 'handbook' and parts catalog. Like I said though, they make a very noticeable difference, espcially when braking hard going into a turn.

.

[HWYSTR455]

Here you go, a pic, and shows the notch for the wiper motor....


.

[Murf'sDad]

Thanx. Perfectly clear and looks like it would be a reasonably easy addition.


Stewart

[HWYSTR455]

No prob. Yeah, if the bolts were black, you would have to look hard to even notice the brace really.

Obviously, a full cage is the way to go, though is a pain in a regularly street driven car. For reference, you can look at some of the roundy-round chassis shops, (street stock and 2nd gen style late model asphalt) and what they do as 'normal procedure' when doing chassis work. Can give you some really good ideas as to where strengthening is beneficial....


Might try here too:

http://www.asedan.net/forums/index.php?




.

[Murf'sDad]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

No prob. Yeah, if the bolts were black, you would have to look hard to even notice the brace really.

Obviously, a full cage is the way to go, though is a pain in a regularly street driven car. For reference, you can look at some of the roundy-round chassis shops, (street stock and 2nd gen style late model asphalt) and what they do as 'normal procedure' when doing chassis work. Can give you some really good ideas as to where strengthening is beneficial....

Might try here too:

http://www.asedan.net/forums/index.php?
.

I've thought about a four point like Hooker used to make and even making it a 6 point, but a full cage is just way too much for my purposes.

Stewart

[HWYSTR455]

I have the Hooker 4-point in my car, and installed it specifically for the windshield problem. It's not NRHA legal, but I don't care, just got sick of replacing windshields! And it does stiffen it up considerably. The bars in the back though, the ones that go back to the wheel hump-support area, those rear passengers will knock their' heads on, especially in 'spirited' driving situations.

My kids tell me stories about when they were young, they remember knocking their' heads! (That's not their' excuse though!)

Anyway, f-body's back seats are for transporting bodies in a pinch, not all the time, so whatever's back there in my opinion doesn't matter.

Then it comes down to the front bars like on a 6-point. Can I live with those? Maybe. They make some that are low, but it's still going to interfere with getting in and out.

My car I feel is pretty darn ridged, and for now, the only place I think I'm going to focus on is the back, like from the door opening edge to the rear of the car. That's where I see most of the flex, especially when you start throwing power at it. Rocker/frame connectors are a good area to beef, but the rear framerails are where the weakness is. I'm going to have to do something about it, since once you go over say 500HP, the body moves all over the place. Quarters buckling, behind the rear wheel the quarter bows out, floor boards ripple, trunk floors, it just all moves around. And my combo dyno-sym'd at 1150. Even with say 20% fudge-factor, that's still over 800, and it's going to wave like a piece of paper in the wind back there.

I'm open for suggestions, but have looked at it for a long time, and think there's a fine line between what one will accept in a street car and level of power. I guess to a degree, I'm going to drive one of those cars that flexes all over the place...

.

[Z Code 400]

Interesting...

I would like to use the 'G' braces with the rubber body mounts. Think there would be any issues with this???

[Murf'sDad]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

I have the Hooker 4-point in my car, and installed it specifically for the windshield problem. It's not NRHA legal, but I don't care, just got sick of replacing windshields! And it does stiffen it up considerably. The bars in the back though, the ones that go back to the wheel hump-support area, those rear passengers will knock their' heads on, especially in 'spirited' driving situations.

My kids tell me stories about when they were young, they remember knocking their' heads! (That's not their' excuse though!)

Anyway, f-body's back seats are for transporting bodies in a pinch, not all the time, so whatever's back there in my opinion doesn't matter.

Then it comes down to the front bars like on a 6-point. Can I live with those? Maybe. They make some that are low, but it's still going to interfere with getting in and out.

My car I feel is pretty darn ridged, and for now, the only place I think I'm going to focus on is the back, like from the door opening edge to the rear of the car. That's where I see most of the flex, especially when you start throwing power at it. Rocker/frame connectors are a good area to beef, but the rear framerails are where the weakness is. I'm going to have to do something about it, since once you go over say 500HP, the body moves all over the place. Quarters buckling, behind the rear wheel the quarter bows out, floor boards ripple, trunk floors, it just all moves around. And my combo dyno-sym'd at 1150. Even with say 20% fudge-factor, that's still over 800, and it's going to wave like a piece of paper in the wind back there.

I'm open for suggestions, but have looked at it for a long time, and think there's a fine line between what one will accept in a street car and level of power. I guess to a degree, I'm going to drive one of those cars that flexes all over the place...
.

I can't see why you are having problems; with a paltry 800 hp? I definitely won't have to worry about those kind of problems. I'm only looking at about 450 hp. Sounds like you may need to go to a full frame or a rear half, at least.

When did you get your Hooker bar? As far as I've been able to find out they aren't available any more and haven't been for a while. I should have bought one back in the day when they were available.

As for the rear seat passengers; what are rear seat passengers? I always thought the back seat of a 2nd Gen was for pets and groceries and anything else you didn't want to get dirty by putting it in the trunk with the battery.

Stewart

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Z Code 400

Interesting...

I would like to use the 'G' braces with the rubber body mounts. Think there would be any issues with this???

Yeah, it's going to move around more, and you will more likely see cowl buckling. You could ask some that have done it, see if you'll get an honest response, but in my experience, the answer would be yes, you would probably see problems.

.

[Murf'sDad]

Originally Posted by Z Code 400

Interesting...

I would like to use the 'G' braces with the rubber body mounts. Think there would be any issues with this???

As I remember this is not recommended. The flexing between the body and the subframe with the rubber mounts ends up cracking the firewall where the G-braces mount.

Stewart

Beat me to it HWYSTR455.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Murf'sDad

I can't see why you are having problems; with a paltry 800 hp? I definitely won't have to worry about those kind of problems. I'm only looking at about 450 hp. Sounds like you may need to go to a full frame or a rear half, at least.

When did you get your Hooker bar? As far as I've been able to find out they aren't available any more and haven't been for a while. I should have bought one back in the day when they were available.

As for the rear seat passengers; what are rear seat passengers? I always thought the back seat of a 2nd Gen was for pets and groceries and anything else you didn't want to get dirty by putting it in the trunk with the battery.

Stewart

Um, lemme see, probably got the Hooker roll bar in saaaay, '85? Maybe '86? I still have the reciept, could look it up when I get home!

I was thinking I'd get new repop rear frame rails, and put box tubing inside the channel, before I tack it back onto the body. Then tie the rear ends together with a cross brace beind the bumper. The torque boxes where the front spring eyes go, tie those with a brace that goes across the bottom of the floor pan, and tie the other ends to the frame connectors. (That's already done). That should be considerably better, and would detract from the original appearance too much. Maybe a cross brace at the top of the arch too, upper most part of the wheel 'humps'. A friend was saying I could do a bar inside the trunk, which goes from the rear of the frame rail ends by the bumper forward to the same point the roll bar plate attaches on the wheel housing. Not sure if I want to do that, since it would be difficult to remove if need be, and leave 'scars'.

.