Stolen 69 Warwick Blue GTO in Michigan.

[PonchoV8]

VIN 242379P154302 was a Warwick Blue GTO shell that I paid a deposit for to a member here on PY by the user name of 69 RA GTO.
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2910808#post2910808 The deposit was paid on 3-1-07. I had been in contact with Tim and was scheduled to pick this car up THIS Saturday (5-19-07) but was just notified today that it has been just been stolen. If anyone knows any info on this car please contact me [email protected] or Tim at 69 RA GTO.

Having paid my deposit in March, I expected to own this car and have already prepped a rolling frame for it--which is now of no use to me. :noidea: Even though this was not in my possession yet, and Tim has promised to send my deposit back to me, I'm not at all happy over having wasted my time stripping a frame and securing storage to get busted to nothing. I'm out two full days work, loss of use of my money and loss of storage layout too.

[GTO JOHN]

Doug, That is terrible news. How frustrating to do all that prep work now you have nothing to work with. Why would somebody steal the shell after all this time anyway? Tim had been trying to sell that car for 6+ months if I recall. Hopefully you can recoup your deposit and Tim can get some insurance claim. If your looking for a replacement car drop me a line. I've got several 69 GTO projects I would be willing to part with one of them. John

[PonchoV8]

Thanks John. I'm sure disappointed. I know my neighbors can't be happy about this thing being in my driveway. I'm thinkin I'm just gonna haul it off to the scrap yard today.

[69 RA GTO]

GTO Body was found and finally returned to me. A couple of kids in their late teens took it thinking they could build it up and put it together. Well they figured it had cooled off enough and started looking for parts and that is when someone tipped off the police and BAM... They got nailed. Anywho she is home safe again.

Tim

[steve v]

Glad to hear you got it back. Too many times there's no resolution to these deals. Was your trailer recovered as well?

I wondered if the local PD considers this auto theft or since it was just the car's shell, personal property theft?

[69 RA GTO]

Hi steve,

It was actually put outside hidden, or so we thought for just a couple of days so not in a trailer. The PD considered it an Auto Theft as it was a titled shell and had the vin numbers attatched. If the Vin number was NOT there, then they would have considered it personal prop which makes sense.

Tim

[PonchoV8]

You told me you weren't going to report it stolen. You told me that a couple of times. I wonder why no consideration is being given to me when you held my deposit for it for as long as you did?

[69 RA GTO]

Doug,

The more I thought about it, the more pissed off I got about it and decided to envolve the Police.... Sorry I am human and change my Mind.

Consideration???? I just got the car back. If you still want to buy it check the for sale section as you are more then welcome to still buy it. I figured you moved on since you said you had another one lined up and its been 7 months. It was STOLEN a couple days before you came up here, I called you as soon as I found out, I returned your $100 Deposit ASAP to you, I called the police and got them envolved, someone tipped them off, they cought the stupid punk kids that stole it, I got my shell back. I told you I was very sorry, what more could I have done? Nothing that I am aware of.

It appears you are still angry about this, I am truley SORRY as it was out of my control as I did not ask for this to happen. If you want to talk more about this you are more then welcome to give me a shout and we can go from there. The car is for sale and you are more then welcome to purchase it if you are still interested.

Sorry Again,
Tim

[PonchoV8]

I'm welcome to give you almost double the original agreed to price IOW. Something tells me I'm not getting what I bargained for. I spent hours and hours stripping this frame for a car you said was mine--that I paid a deposit on. Now it's sitting outside wasting space, I've wasted several weekends removing parts and now you want to tell me to give you $1500 for a shell I already bought for $800 once?

[Ron Landis]

you boys need to settle this in private. Poncho, you weren't the least bit considerate of him losing the car and he DID return your deposit, so it seems like your say in the matter is history. If you were ready to junk the frame, doesn't sound like you had much invested anyway and now, by rights, the car should be registered as a theft recovery, right? Why would you want it anyway? Just trying to understand how you are the victim here. Makes me no nevermind. Ron

[PonchoV8]

you boys need to settle this in private. Poncho, you weren't the least bit considerate of him losing the car and he DID return your deposit, so it seems like your say in the matter is history. If you were ready to junk the frame, doesn't sound like you had much invested anyway and now, by rights, the car should be registered as a theft recovery, right? Why would you want it anyway? Just trying to understand how you are the victim here. Makes me no nevermind. Ron
No other people need to know the deal with this car and this guy. I spent HOURS every weekend and after work missing an annual family birthday event because of what happened--not to mention the two days I took off of work for stripping to make it by the deadline--all the way to headliner rods I stripped it. I paid to store a car I had on my trailer so that I could pick up my lemans to strip down to the frame--so that I would have something to put this GTO shell on. I spent $2000 on another car just to help with parts for this shell to make it complete. My wife is not at all happy with Tim about us missing that event because of this guy and his deal. You want to tell me exactly why he wouldn't report the thing stolen? He lost nothing and now he's back up and running doubling his price now that things have cooled off. How is that an injury for him? I was injured. If you had sense, you'd see that I'm the only person that posted that the car was stolen. He wouldn't even report it stolen to the police after I paid on the car. Why is that? I find that curious. You have some other point you want to be wrong about?

After the theft, I had to unload the stripped frame in my driveway to go get the $2000 car in Nashville to take to someone else that agreed to buy it on payments to recoup my money--since I couldn't use the car anymore--just so I could go get my 70 out of paid storage to keep on my trailer where it is still sitting.

There's more!In mid Feb when we cut this deal, this guy wasted a bunch of my time telling me all about the car. I spent time talking to him on the telephone and going round and round about all the details, then when I told him I'm ready to commit to buy it, he claimed someone else was wanting to buy it and he wanted to talk to this guy first. WTF?! That was the clue I should have taken to walk away. When I told him I didn't like wasting my time for a car that isn't for sale, he told me what I wanted to hear I guess. He told me he'd sell me the car for sure "It's your's".. So I said fine, how much money up front. He said none. Well that's weird. No money yet? Maybe it isn't mine then. Maybe he's going to wait on the other guy? I explained that if I don't have to pay a deposit how do I know we've got a deal? I explained later that I have to strip a car to the frame for the shell he has--I don't want to waste my time on a chance it's not official. So he agreed to $100 and $700 on pickup. Tim told me he's needing money in his personal life (but didn't want my deposit?). I sent a check out with the memo stating it was for the exact car--he cashed it so it was official. Oh yeah, earlier he sent a scan of a title that didn't match the VIN (blue colored)--then he sent a title that did match (duplicate) and explained that he mistakenly sent a title from a parts car. More strange stuff, I'm leary but believed him at that point even though he's acting flaky. I sent money out on March 1st and started stripping my lemans to the frame in my free time.
I bought another complete Warwick Blue 69 GTO auto with a a 4 spd console and pedals with some trim for $2000 so that I could use that car for more parts to make it complete. So time goes on and he emails me that now his dad wants this thing out of his shop. I said okay I'll be there the weekend following the upcoming one. No problem he said, it was his dad complaining or it would be fine. The next week I emailed him that I'm coming for sure that weekend. Then he emailed me back that the shell got stolen and he isn't going to report it stolen. It isn't even titled in his name. I should've expected the car to 'disappear'. Too many strange things.

I called him and he reiterated that he will not be reporting it stolen. I have a recording of the phone call for proof. I listened to it just last week. Very strange, and I suspected what really happened is that it isn't really stolen. He either was trying to get me to walk away from my deposit--because someone else is on the hook for the car, or there is a problem with the title. So what the hell am I going to do with all this crap for a car that got stolen from me too--not to mention the hours I put into stripping the frame, storing the parts, buying a $2000 car hours away, putting my 70 in storage? He sent my deposit back--Oh yeah, I had to email a second time to get it rolling though.

So I posted here about the car being stolen while I waited nicely for my deposit. He still didn't report it stolen. He oddly wasn't concerned enough to report it with the law--he didn't even post here. He said on the phone that it was okay that I did post here though. Thanks--seeing as how I have paid money on the car.
And yet somehow the police find a car, decide the car was stolen and return to a person that it isn't titled to? Yeah right! This smells and you other people have been informed of my experience. Anybody keeping track of just how much I put into this deal and now it's back for sale?

Tell you what, next time you go to the move into a new place, spend the time taking out the old stuff instead of attending an annual birthday event, renting storage, bagging up all the old stuff that you'll need for the new stuff, buy an extra car, send off your money and then find out later that you wasted your time because someone claims it's not available anymore, let me know how you feel. Then consider that the seller won't report it stolen. Oh, but I can buy it [b]again[b/]--at double the price. That ought to make it all better.


Now surprise, surprise, the car turns back and his buddy Ron attacks the guy that got it broken off in him.
Tim, you ranted on this site about how Pontiac people suck. You said you were selling your stuff and leaving the Pontiac world because of those people. Guess who you are?

[6704gto]

wow this all wrong

[69 RA GTO]

Doug,

This is very simple and this WILL be my last post as this is just getting out of control. If you want to buy the car, then it is for sale since I got it back. If I do not sell it then I will keep it and restore it and have fun with it. If you are not interested then move on. This is not the place for this. I will say it again to you, I am very SORRY to you and your wife as to what happened. I cannot change what happened, if I could I would. I could go through and answer/reply to your statements but I am not because it just is not worth it as no matter what I say to you I will be the A**hole in your eyes and will be at complete fault. You have your opion and that is fine, we all have opions as I have one about you as well.

In Parting, I am not answering anymore on this thread, nor and I going to look at it. It is a dead thread, and I am truley sorry and I do not know what else to day. Have a good life Doug and all the best on your project cars.

Regards,
Tim

[PonchoV8]

This is the place for this, because these are the accounts and conclusion to what occurred with this car. You didn't start a topic looking for a shell with title that was stolen, I did. Now it's 'found'.
If you'd perfer I start a topic in the Pontiac Business Exchange with the exact information as here, I can do that.
I think I've made my point though. I know my wife will accept your apology. I do as well, but that doesn't mean I'll forget it. No, I will never consider dealing with you again and I consider it an insult to offer me the shell again at double the price.

[tajunkman]

Car should be offered to Doug at the original price Simple as that..

[Rusty]

Well this opened my eyes to 69 RA GTO. Thanks to Poncho for exposing this fraud! And yes I did say fraud! As someone in law enforcement, I'm quite convinced that you, 69RA GTO are nothing more than a scam artist. I think everyone on this site should read this and stop conducting any and all business with you. I don't for a second believe that this shell was stolen. You should be ashamed of yourself for not manning up to a deal. As my dad would say, "You will never have to worry about a sore back, because you don't have a spine!"

Hopefully 69RA GTO gets what he deserves. Someday he'll piss off, or screw over the wrong guy.

Poncho, if you'd really like to pursue it, and I know I would, just out of spite. I would recommend contacting the police dept. that would've taken the stolen auto report. First off, see if the snake even made a report or if he's just full of crap. Check and see if they've had any run-ins of similar occurance with this guy. If he actually did report it stolen and it was recovered by the police, then that will be easy to find out through calling them and checking some records.

Either way 69RA GTO is a scumbag and you are absolutely right to post that here. Hopefully more people get the word and don't do business with this guy.

[Rusty]

Another suspicious part...what did the kids do with the "steel beams" that he alleged were stolen as well?

[GTOnly70]

Indeed, a man of principle would have offered the car back to Doug for the original agreed purchase price.

The conclusion here is obvious.

[Jimbro727]

hmmm

I'd be interested in knowing if Doug gets any information from the police department that validates Tim's claims. Then maybe it can be determined if this was fraud or just one giant misunderstanding. Good luck man

[1969 Ram Air]

That car was stolen. I talked to 69 RA GTO after it was taken and he told me about it and had no reason to lie to me. I've done business with him many times and he always treated me well.

[69 RA GTO]

It is just amazing how people get involved in others business. I can happley report that the car is NO MORE as I need panel sections for one of my other projects to sell and decided to use this shell since the body has alot more rust then I had remembered and am trying save money. Soooo the car IS NOT FOR SALE ANYMORE and will become a parts car.

I have to honestly laugh being called a scumbag and a scammer. I have been on this forum since 2000, and actually on here before they created the forum in this format as I still remember the old format back in the 90's. I have had dealings with many of the people on here thru the years and have never had any issues with anyone. There is an issue where " MY" shell ( since I still was not paid in full, still had the shell, and still had the title ) was stolen just a couple days before Doug was to come pick up " MY" shell. Can we say it was bad luck on both of our parts? YES, and I still feel very bad for Doug and his Wife.

Fast forward several months and I get the shell back. I need Money as we have medical bills piled up from the birth of a child as well as treatment bills like no tomorrow for my other child who has Autism. I really do not need the shell so decide to put it up for sale to see if she sells for what it is worth NOW, not 7 months ago. Is it unfair to Doug, YES it is and I will admit it but when you have to look out for a family who does NOT have money sitting in the bank you have to do what you have to do, and I am sure alot have been there at one point in their lives. THEN everyone starts spouting their mouths with their opions which is fine, then the topping on the cake is someone claiming I am a scammer, scumbag, ect, and even takes it as far to send me a nice PM saying "I am a scam artist and I hope you get exposed for it" REAL MATURE FOR SOMEONE IN THE LAW ENFORCEMENT FIELD RUSTY.

In parting: Those of you on this board can have your opion of me. Yes I may have not handled this situation the best I could have and I will say it again... DOUG, I am truley sorry to you and your wife. Am I going to sit here for days going back and forth with everyone who posts trying to defend myself? NO as I have a life, family,and have alot bigger things to worry about.

Thanks,
Tim

[Rusty]

Either way, stolen or not....sounds like someone I wouldn't do business with. And he would've had to say it was stolen, Doug had posted it as such on here. He couldn't possibly tell you, "I moved it into hiding, and concocted a story about it being stolen so I can take it out in a year and sell it for double the money."

I'll say this. Yes I could be completely wrong about this. But either way, I don't like the way it was handled. It smells fishy.

I call it like I see it Tim. Being in Law Enforcement, I've dealt with plenty of scams, scam artists and frauds. Without doing digging, on the surface, this looks just like that. As i just stated above, maybe I'm wrong, but I've learned to go with my gut instinct.

I apologize if I'm wrong, but I still think you talk out both sides of your mouth. We can leave it at that, because I know these types of threads end up going no where. I've said my piece, you've said yours, Doug has said his, others have already formed their opinion.

Good Luck!

[Jimbro727]

So I wonder what happened then. I see misunderstandings and miscommunication all of the time, and I just hate seeing one create so much anger here on the boards.

[gumbys goat]

Greed is the issue here and thats that. This guy was never taught by his ma and pa or whoever what morality is.its. sad but he has to live with himself. In time hell get his but eventually the guilt will eat at him and other areas of his life will crumble or hell be given more bad breaks. Its really just a matter of time. Whats sad is that he knows he was unscrupulous and is almost proud of it. Now that my friends is a sign of a sick man.

[69 RA GTO]

Gumbys Goat - ?????????????

This is starting to become one of those excerises where you have a Circle of people and tell the 1st person in the circle the ball is Red and by the time it comes around to the last person they are saying the ball is Blue.

There is absolutely no misunderstanding. Shell was for sale, Doug bought the shell, Shell was stolen, Deposit was returned, Time passed, Shell was found and returned, I listed shell for sale. Obviously I could add lots more to these main details but this in a nutt shell is what happened.

As stated in my other post I have been here for along time and done hundreds of deal's with people on here ( Cars and Parts ) with no problems. Everyone is so eager to be judgemental of someone who they do not know or ever dealt with. I see it time and time again on here. Everyone is like a pack of wolves and pray on the weak. There are always 2 sides to a story, and I personally feel I do not need to defend myself here. Yes I made a mistake and should have thought to ask Doug about buying it back, but as everyone is aware of here, the prices of project cars and parts have increased in value in the past 7 months. As reasons stated in a previous post I need money and feel the shell is now worth more money then the agreed price almost a year ago. I am NOT going to give something away to where I feel it is worth more now. The Car was still mine when it was stolen, and the car is still mine since it being recovered, am I not allowed to do what I want with MY car?

Anyways everyone can say what you want, I am NOT in the wrong doing here.

[PonchoV8]

First let's correct your mistakes--
04/27/07 7:46 pm I email Doug saying just wanted to drop you a line and see when you are planning on coming up here to pick this bad boy up. My dad is starting to get on my butt to get it out of his barn as he needs the room since the weather finally broke. Let me know when you get a chance and talk to you later.

04/27/07 7:34 pm Doug reply’s Everything has been moving in slow motion for me here. I haven’t been getting anything done in the time I wanted it done. I’ve still got this body on the frame here. I’m going to have to locate a storage that I can drop it off at to start getting stuff moved around. I still have that liberty blue GTO still that I’m supposed to take to Nashville for the guy ( for payment). Let me work on the storage deal and I’ll let you know pretty quick.
BULL! You didn't contact me, I contacted you look at the times!. I contacted you to asking how the storage was going because as you said in the deal--it was no problem storing it for an extended period of time. Nice try though.
I'll clear it up better. "Stripped" meant I took the seats, console and all the stainless trim off the car. Nothing else was valuble or needed until you made a deal to sell the shell to me. 'Stripped' became taking EVERYTHING off the body once you entered into a deal, because your shell is nothing but some pieces of steel welded together. Not a door, headliner rod, no headliner arm holding brackets, no headliner holding bracket screws, no glass, nor door weather stripping stainless with screws, no welting, no steer column, no steering column U-bracket with 6 nuts, no steering coumn plastic toe kick with several screws, no firewall insulation, no firewall grommets, etc, etc. You wouldn't believe what all a car has in the way of pieces and screws to hold it. I wouldn't have separated the frame from the body either--that's not easy nor fun on a rusty old car. It all takes days to do and that's obviously work I wouldn't have done if I didn't have a shell---which I don't now.
I don't care what you paid, but if you paid $800 for that shell how come it sold on ebay a couple yrs before for $200 in your area of Michigan? I watched the auctions and wanted to bid on it then but didn't have the trailer at the time. I think there was only one bid on the car for the min bid with no reserve. I'm sure you'll claim it was a different car, but I have a good memory--I didn't have to check emails for a chronology of events with you.
I said I have a recording of the message and I do--and it happened by fluke. Never mind how. It just happened to be on the call that I was making where you acknowledged to cashing my deposit and would return it. I think anyone would agree that I had cause for alarm that it might not be returned.
Prices for projects and cars are DOWN.
Good luck with your next deal.

The VIN 242379B154302 to the car is pictured below if some law enforcement officer wants to check it to see if it's actually ever been processed as stolen/recovered property. That's ought to clear up the events, but not the offer to sell it for double the price to me.
The rest of you might want to look at the cowl tag pictures and notice how fresh the rivot filler is in them--I didn't notice before. These are the only pics I got that shows the VIN and cowl so I don't even know that they're the same car--since there was a previous concern with the wrong title picture that he sent me.
Per someone else's post not seen here If in fact the car was stolen and the seller states he reported it stolen, he will have a LEIN report and case number generated through NLETS for said vehicle. Can you produce this report?

BUYER BEWARE.

[69 RA GTO]

Thanks for your responce, as I did want to here what you had to say. I do now understand some of my questions and that is what I wanted. As for the part about what I paid, I know what I paid and if the shell was indeed on ebay I did not see it. Guess I overpaid for it then... Oh well.

As for the pics of the tags, if you would actually open your eyes carefully and calm down and look carefully you can see those are original. Also the vin is stamped on the firewall as well and it does match. May want to go see the eye doctor.

As for the Report, I am not going to post this for security reasons as I am very careful where I store our cars at, like most people are. If I were to produce this, or any part of it, I am sure some could be able to find out where I store our cars. This does not sound like a good idea to me.

Anyways the long and short here is that I am done, I supplied the facts I had stored in my computer with the email back and forth. I showed the date and times for everyone. I have spent way too many hours defending myself on here. Doug has said his 2 cents, I have given my 2 cents. The shell is NOT for sale and is now a expensive parts car to me. I know what happend, Doug and everyone else think they know what happened, and there will never be a 100% conclusion. I have had lots of contacts and I thank everyone for their words. Hope everyone had a great New Year and talk to many of you later down the road.

Kind Regards,
Tim

[69 RA GTO]

I actually just went back into my old computer to check what Doug talk's about in the beginning of his post. I made a type error on the time, here is the corrected version:

**Edited for PM content**

Doug, you really need to get your facts strait, you are all over the board here and by the looks of what you wrote you are getting pretty desperate here. Sorry Buddy.

Tim

[PonchoV8]

You believe what you want. I think everyone can pretty well determine what happened for themselves. I've said my piece and given the facts as I experienced and remember them. I had a very bad experience dealing with you despite doing my part. It started on a bad sign and has yet to end. Thanks for the memories.

BTW, you are making more enemies of people down here by revealing private emails. These other people you have fingered by location of city are not going to be happy that you just told what they bought, how much and where it's at. Congratulations!

I'm asking the mods to retract those portions of my private emails regarding other people I've sold cars to. They DO NOT want to be known.

[69 RA GTO]

People down there? If I read the email correctly we are talking about a single car going to city in your state. There are many people in the city of reference, so I would say how are people going to know where your car went? unless you exposed it yourself spouting your Mouth. You just keep coming up with good one's Doug. Again getting desperate I think.

And let me bring this up as well to everyone. Many of you remember how Doug handles himself when we was selling his Orbit Orange 3 speed Judge. Do a search for those of you who do not know or remember. I remember sitting back thinking to myself this is a strange bird, and also a angry person. Sorry again Doug but I think this will also help people with what is going on. I can post comments from threads if I want to but I feel that is not my place. Let the people be the judge of it and let the facts speak for themselve

You are right, it did start off wrong with you telling ME what my shell is worth and being all cocky, ect from that 1st email on 02/18/07 12:55 pm. You pi**ed me off and I should have NOT dealt with you but I was desperate for money and no one turns down a potential buying when we need money.

TO THE MODS, I FEEL THAT THE LOCATION NEEDS TO BE KNOW AS IT IS PART OF HIS OFF THE WALL STATEMENTS ABOUT OUR TRANSACTION IN POST #11 AND HE IS TRYING TO COVER PART OF IT UP. NO ONE KNOWS WHO HE SOLD HIS CAR TO UNLESS HE STATED IT HIMSELF.

[David Holmberg]

You can defend yourself, just don't repost a message sent in private.

[69 RA GTO]

Moderator Dave,

Well the FACTS need to be know to everyone since Doug has the FACTS all screwed up.

Trust me, I left out tons of personal information from our emails. It would have been a lot easier to copy and paste screen drops here instead of taking the time to write everything down the way I did. Does everyone really think I am that stupid and am new to the world? I have been around the block several time.

If anyone is interested in what was really said that was just edited, let me know and we can go in private SINCE IT IS IMPORTANT

[Rusty]

Tim,

You had me going for a second, but then I started putting things together again, and they just don't add up.

I'm particularly baffled as to why your shell wasn't available to be released for something like two weeks after it was recovered. (I'd give an exact account of the dates recovered to when returned but I can no longer find that post in the thread) I don't know for certain what type of procedures the police in your area have for releasing stolen property/autos, but in my area you can get your property/auto back within a day or two. I'm also a little confused as to how some "metal scrapper" loaded 15 foot steel beams, a GTO shell, etc. That's a lot of product and a heavy load to scrap. My experience in law enforcement tells me that people who are scrappers are generally looking for a quick buck. So now I'm again baffled as to why your shell was allegedly found with a group of teens. Scrappers would've taken that straight to a scrap yard and gotten whatever money they could for it (most likely to go support their habit). They wouldn't of sold it to some teens or anyone else because that would potentially lead to them getting caught. Scrap yards don't check crap. They know alot of stuff they take in is stolen, but they are getting money for taking it in, so they don't really care (at least most don't care).

For me I think just the name of the police department or sheriff's office that took the stolen report would help to iron out an awful lot. I wouldn't ask you to post the address of your barn, your fathers residence or your residence, but I think a case number and the department that took the report would help your case a lot, if in fact what you're saying is true, and this has all been a MAJOR misunderstanding.

I understand that there are two sides to every story. But I see one side shifting a lot more than the other.

BTW it is NOT illegal to record a conversation without the other person knowing it. It is only illegal for a government body to force someone against their will to record a phone conversation for purposes of use in a legal process later.

Rusty

[LPete]

BTW it is NOT illegal to record a conversation without the other person knowing it.

That's not true in all states. Some require both parties' consent.

http://www.rcfp.org/taping/

[69 RA GTO]

Hi Rusty,

Your questions are valid questions. I to do not know why it took so long to get it back, I was just told this and I was not in a position to argue with a officer like yourself. When an officer tells me something I do what they want.

As for the scrap Items: I have never had any experence in that field but let me tell you what I do know and then we can speculate.

1. We had about 10 to 15 Steel I beams that are no longer behind our barn. We had some old farm equipment that is no longer behind our barn. And lastly we had some old cast iron sewer pipe that is no longer behind our barn.

2. Best that my dad remembers that stuff was still there when he moved the shell behind the barn with the tractor. There is a slight chance that it was already gone but highly doubt it.

3. My dad goes to get the shell he put back behind the barn and it is no longer there. He continues to look around and notices that the above items are not there either.

Now looking at the whole picture, would it not make sense to think that someone took all the metal they could behind the barn for scrap metal? We all know that the price of scrap metal has a high dollar value on it? We start putting 2 and 2 together and it only makes sense to us at the time

Now it makes sense with what you say about how scrappers work as it sounds you know it well and I am not going to doubt you one bit. I have no clue what the people who took everything did after taking the metal, we could speculate about it but we all know where that gets us.

To answer your question about the paperwork. Rusty, we are both smart people. It appears Doug and everyone is mad at me, does not believe me, ect. If I would to give out any information, you and I both know there is a way to find things out from small clues. If I post this and someone out of spite, or to get even, or what ever reason decides to do some digging and find some information out, who knows what can happen. I have lots of friends who are in the law enforcement field, heck I wanted to be a police officer and did some reading of books, and they strictly told me do NOT give anything out and I would be stupid if I did after I talked to them about this issue going on here. I would think you can agree with me here Rusty being an officer?

I tried to sit here, but this truley got out of control. I take 5 hours lastnight putting together a list of all true facts to show exactly what happened.

JUST A HALF HOUR AGO MODERATOR DAVID PULLS THE PLUG ON THE THREAD WHERE I GIVE ALL THE FACTS.

Rusty, you saw the posting, you read it, was that not important information to help defend myself from the wolves here?

Anyways I hope this helps some. I will be honest, I am really getting tired of defending myself on here for something where I did nothing wrong. If anyone else ever had a BAD experience with me please speak up !!!!!! I am a excellent law obiding citizen, I do nothing but try to help people in life as well as on here, look at all of my previous posts to see. Why am I getting Dogged so hard here? and then when I finally give the facts to defend myself it gets pulled by PY. I just do not get it.

I feel I have wasted enough time here defending myself. I like the rest of you have our pontiac projects we need to work on and I have wasted now a complete Friday evening, and now here we are @ 3:30 still sitting defending myself. I am heading into the garage to work on my car so I will not be reading this post for the rest of the day. I hope there will be no more post that I have to defend so everyone lets move on and do something constructive and helpful to people on this board.

Regards,
Tim

[PonchoV8]

You got anymore smoke you want to cover our deal with? It changes nothing. Here's something to compare how much you shell with title is worth. You were being paid fairly.

I was willing to pay you more than I think the car is worth because I wanted it. That's the way I am. Nobody else came up with money for your super valuable car body did they? I didn't respond for a while to your ad. My car changes nothing about our deal and the events. Right before I contacted you, I sold a Liberty Blue manual trans 3 spd '69 GTO with clear title and PHS to someone else for $1000. It is a complete rusty car with no motor. It has bucket seats, full interior still and the original manual trans in the trunk. It was offered on ebay also and nobody bought it for $1000 though someone on this site from Detroit (named John) wanted the car and so did someone down here after the auction. John ended up buying a different car, before I posted it here again. It can proabaly still be found in the for sale section. Go for it.


HOWEVER! Where it went and how it was paid for are all facts that will expose someone else that is not involved and wants to stay anonymous. If the buyer of the car sees this post and wants to identify himself/herself, fine.
If you want to say the car was sold hrs from where I live, that's fine and correct. I'm not the one spouting off at the mouth. I also had to put a 70 Pontiac into storage. You want to see pics of all my cars?

And don't recommend anyone else to buy my Judge again. I don't need your help. Birds of a feather. Nobody else was interested in paying you your asking price because it wasn't a good deal. Only I was willing to pay a fair price.

To answer your question about the paperwork. Rusty, we are both smart people. It appears Doug and everyone is mad at me, does not believe me, ect. If I would to give out any information, you and I both know there is a way to find things out from small clues.
Same deal with the buyer of my car. It would change nothing. Notice how I whited out the VIN in my pics? You can too. The mods did the proper thing. I had no problem until you started getting into more detail that is irrelevant. And nothing was done when you oringially typed all that stuff that supports my side of the story anyway.

[LPete]

I'm no lawyer, but I think the bottom line is that you two had an oral (and possibly written) contract. Everything else is extraneous. The deal was agreed to by both parties. The only obvious "out" I see is that Doug accepted the deposit back. I'm not sure that invalidates the contract.

I really think that legally (and ethically), Doug is entitled to the car at the agreed price.

Just my $.02.

[Rusty]

LPete,

That post that you put up appears to be in relation to media outlets, which do have different standards and laws than private citizens, for obvious reasons. But none the less, when it gets to the point that people are suspicious enough that they have to record conversations, then that is a red flag that something isn't right. I'm going to do my best to stay away from this post, but it's like a car accident.

Tim,

It is possible that the people stole all of the scrap metal, shell, etc. It just doesn't sound right. I guess I shouldn't be throwing around accusations without knowing for certain, but that's part of what I'd like to discover, the truth. I don't necessarily blame you for not wanting to post some of that info on here because you are correct that it could be used for vindictive purposes. But obviously, some of that info would clear up this whole mess.

Rusty

[b-man]

At this point I'd like to ask that anyone not directly involved with this deal who have already had their say in this thread, to please just let the parties who are directly involved work this out.

Thank you.

[PonchoV8]

Same deal with the buyer of my car. It would change nothing. Notice how I whited out the VIN in my pics? You can too. The mods did the proper thing. I had no problem until you started getting into more detail that is irrelevant. And nothing was done when you oringially typed all that stuff that supports my side of the story anyway.
Meaning that little clues that you gave on my unrelated car sale prove nothing for you about this deal--and that info can be chased down to possibly determine my buyer---nothing else you posted is going to do anything but support my claim.

I appreciate people saying that I should be offered the car at the original price. That would've been the honest thing to do IMO, but I would not buy it at this point anyway. It's a dead deal. And if you chose to deal with him, do NOT go out on a limb and make plans (or do a bunch of work) until you have your item.

[PonchoV8]

Pic of the other Warwick 69 I bought just to help me with the parts that I needed to complete this Warwick I was buying from Tim. Just in case you're confused on which car you're talking about. The Liberty was gone before I bought this one.

[Pontiac_Defender]

And if you chose to deal with him, do NOT go out on a limb and make plans (or do a bunch of work) until you have your item.

I think that would be a given regardless of who you're dealing with. Things sometime happen in life that are beyond our control. It is unfortunate that things have turned out the way they have here. For both parties.

What's even worse is how ugly this topic has become. Seems like the longer it continues to go on the more people chime in on it and before long....well you all see what it has escalated to.

We are all here for one thing. The love of the hobby. The love of Pontiacs! It saddens me to no end when things turn ugly like this. And it has happened with other members on here as well. I dont think any person deserves to be called out. To be called a scam artist or scum bag ect...

I hope you guys can atleast bury the hatchet.

Life is way too short!