1970 GTO Version 2.0

[gearbanger]

So, would you have a CV joint in the back too or just the front? Seems like you are still going to have to deal with at least some slop introduced into the driveline by the splines and the slip joint at the trans. If that is the source of our problems, then we may be screwed.

I guess I just always thought it was a wheel and tire balance issue. I mean, these guys at these shops just balance your tires at like 30 mph and thats when they are new, a couple of burnouts later, they have to have changed. IMHO

[gearbanger]

I have never heard of a driveshaft's weight being an issue when it comes to balance, Did the same guy balance all your driveshafts? Maybe just for sake of elimination, try someone else?

I don't know alot about driveshaft balancing, but by my calcs, the driveshaft is cranking over 3300 rpms at 75 mph. That is assuming a 28" tall rear tire. So I could see where that would create a vibration if everything wasn't koser. And the heavier the driveshaft the more problem a little slop would cause. It would be cool to throw another driveshaft in it, escpecially a lighter aluminum one just to see about the vibration issue would change.

[andrewb70]

I don't know alot about driveshaft balancing, but by my calcs, the driveshaft is cranking over 3300 rpms at 75 mph. That is assuming a 28" tall rear tire. So I could see where that would create a vibration if everything wasn't koser. And the heavier the driveshaft the more problem a little slop would cause. It would be cool to throw another driveshaft in it, escpecially a lighter aluminum one just to see about the vibration issue would change.

My tires are 27.3" tall. The vibration really starts becoming noticeable as the driveshaft speed approaches 4000 RPM. I've exchanged more emails with Frank over the weekend, and I am pretty set on having him make a shaft with a CV in the front in either aluminum or CF.

Andrew

[gearbanger]

How does the cv attach to the slip yoke? And is there a special pinion yoke that bolts to the pinion and bolts to the CV?

[andrewb70]

How does the cv attach to the slip yoke? And is there a special pinion yoke that bolts to the pinion and bolts to the CV?

Frank is going to modify a standard slip yoke by machining it down and welding on a cup for the CV. He said that he has done this many times and there are no issues with durability. On the pinion side I am swapping over to a Mark Williams 1350 billet yoke. With the CV joint in the front the front angle doesn't matter. The CV can operate at angles as high as 40 degrees without issue. In the rear I will adjust my upper control arms so that the rear working angle is minimal, just a hair more than zero. Problem solved!

Today I actually told Frank to move forward on this project. He will make me the yoke and I will mock it up for proper driveshaft length.

Andrew

[gearbanger]

So you are thinking that it is too much working angle of the u-joints then that is causing the vibration, and not the driveshaft being out of balance?

So it seems like a really good plan. What material for the driveshaft? What diameter?

[andrewb70]

So you are thinking that it is too much working angle of the u-joints then that is causing the vibration, and not the driveshaft being out of balance?

So it seems like a really good plan. What material for the driveshaft? What diameter?

Honestly, I don't really know the exact cause of the problem. I am taking a shotgun approach to the problem. My transmission will be rebuilt, and a new, driveshaft will be made with the CV joint. I am also changing the rear yoke. I am hoping that the combination of all those things will solve the problem. Right now I am leaning towards a carbon fiber driveshaft, 3.25" O.D.

Here are some neat details about the CF shafts:

http://driveshaftshop.com/blog/?p=546

My shaft will look very similar to the 2010 Camaro driveshaft.

Andrew

[gearbanger]

I don't think you are taking a shotgun approach. You have eliminated most of the elements of the car in a very scientific manner to a few remaining components. It is too bad though that you will be replacing several components at once. You won't really know which one fixed it that way, but hopefully it will be fixed and that is all that matters anyway.

[6 Grrrs]

I am interested in your results. I have been fighting a vibration in my pickup for years. I would be very interested in doing the cv joint setup if it works.

[andrewb70]

I don't think you are taking a shotgun approach. You have eliminated most of the elements of the car in a very scientific manner to a few remaining components. It is too bad though that you will be replacing several components at once. You won't really know which one fixed it that way, but hopefully it will be fixed and that is all that matters anyway.

Unfortunately its not possible to replace components individually. For instance, when my transmission failed, it took out my Strange billet slip yoke. It would be an extra expense for me to install a new yoke, change the rear yoke, have the old driveshaft rebalanced, and then test the results. I would much rather put those funds towards the new driveshaft. I am really excited about this. The vibration issue has plagued me for so long that I have almost given up on it. I have a feeling that it will feel like a completely different car.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

I am interested in your results. I have been fighting a vibration in my pickup for years. I would be very interested in doing the cv joint setup if it works.

Tod,

I would think that lowered pick-ups have similar driveline issues as a-bodies. As you lower them, the pinion starts to get higher relative to the output shaft of the transmission. The solution is to keep raising the back of the transmission, but there is a limit to how much that can be done.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of driveshaft are you running? Is it one piece? What material and diameter? Do you know the approximate length?

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Last Thursday I finished my last final, so I am officially done with the spring semester. I am ready to relax and get back to my GTO. It's hard to imagine, but it was three years ago that I completed the L92 engine swap. My, how time flies. In the summer of 2008 I put about 6,000 miles on the car. The plans for this summer are more modest, but I would like to attend a couple of events and maybe visit some friends out west. After much deliberation and for a lack of simple options, I have decided to get the Richmond 6 speed rebuilt. Richmond Gear has been working with me and we came to an agreement. They are currently in possession of my transmission and will give it a thorough inspection. All the gears will be magnufluxed and all parts that are damaged will be replaced. I never had any fundamental objections to the Richmond. I always felt that it shifted fine and offered an awesome, close-ratio gear spread for gears 1-5 and a comfortable .62 overdrive. Keeping the same transmissions will also allow me to keep my current crossmember and not worry about an alternate shifter location.

With road trips planned for the summer, I once again turned to a problem that has plagued my car since day one. Despite numerous efforts I have been unable to completely eliminate the high speed vibration that my car exhibits at speeds about 75 mph. It's really frustrating on long highway trips, because the car feels amazing cruising at speeds between 75 and 80 mph.

I have already posted what my thoughts are regarding the rear end position. I will be swapping out the current rear upper control arms for ones made by RideTech. I firmly believe that while the rear end position may not be entirely responsible for my vibration, it is certainly a factor. I will also be doing other driveline upgrades at the same time. What I have planned may be a little overboard, but I believe that it will completely eliminate any driveline alignment and vibration issues in the future. Here is the plan....

The first step is to get a rear pinion yoke that is machined with the kind of tolerances that are required to achieve smooth operation at sustained high speeds. I chose a 1350 billet yoke from Mark Williams:

http://www.markwilliams.com/images/39006.jpg

With the rear taken care of, the next item to tackle is the driveshaft. There are many fine companies that make driveshafts, but given my alignment issues, I wanted to pick a vendor that was able to offer something unique. I have worked with Frank at The DriveShaft Shop (http://www.driveshaftshop.com/)(DSS) in the past when I needed custom axles for my RX7. Frank has always been attentive to my needs and has provided a quality product that has met and exceeded my expectations. The DSS is widely known in the sport compact world for making bullet proof CV axles, and recently they have also been doing some innovative work on the many modern muscle cars that use independent rear suspensions. Cars like the new Camaro, Dodge Charger, GTOs, and Cadillac CTS-V are rear drive, high HP, and heavy. That combination is the perfect storm for breaking driveline components, and DSS has stepped up to the plate with upgraded CV shafts, driveshafts, and complete 9" IRS swap packages.

After deliberating with Frank about my GTO and the issues that I am having we came up with a very elegant solution. Frank will make me a custom driveshaft with a CV joint in the front. People in the 4x4 world have used double cardon CV joint driveshafts for a long time to deal with extreme driveline angles. But double cardon joints are bulky and heavy, and just didn't seem appropriate for a car. What will be used in the front is a 6 ball, Porsche 930 style CV. Like this:


http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/frankrehak/axle%20blog%20post/3108mmcvfinned.jpg

CV joints are designed to operate at high speeds and at extreme operating angles. Furthermore, there is no need to match the front and rear angles, as you need with a shaft that uses u-joints on both ends. With the CV joint in the front I will adjust my pinion angle so that the pinion and the driveshaft have almost a zero working angle. A slight angle is required only to make sure that the needles in the u-joint caps get lubricated. The rear working angle will be less than .5 degrees.

Since a new shaft will need to be fabricated, I have also decided to go a little overboard and opt for a carbon fiber tube. This may be a little over kill, but I am not taking any chances. In fact, Frank felt that my problems can be solved by using a driveshaft made from aluminum. However, a CF driveshaft is lighter than aluminum and offers plenty of torque capacity. Using a carbon fiber driveshaft also tends to significantly lessen the noise generated by the driveline. In some ways its like Dynomat for the driveline. I had the opportunity to drive a friends RX7 with a carbon driveshaft and it felt amazing. When cycling the driveline from load to coast the sensation was like there was a piece of plastic between the rear and and the transmission. It was a firm feeling, yet it lacked the sharpness that is felt with metal components. It was quite amazing.

With my current combination of gears and tire size the driveshaft will be spinning 3675 RPM at 80mph. While this doesn't seem like a lot, when you consider that my old driveshaft was made from mild steel and was 3.5" in diameter, the forces that were generated by such a heavy shaft were significant, even with a properly balanced driveshaft. The DSS has recently installed a new balancing machine that has the ability to spin a shaft to 9500RPM. They have been working with some NASCAR teams to solve some of the driveline issues that they face. Keep in mind that NASCAR race cars operate with the driveline spinning anywhere from 7500-9600RPM. Balancing driveshafts at that speed is a whole different ballgame than your typical 1000 RPM balance job at your local driveline shop.

The resulting driveshaft will be very similar to the shaft that they sell for 2010+ Camaros.

http://driveshaftshop.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/carbon-CV-shaft-clean1.jpg

Instead of the billet adapters that are seen in the picture, my shaft will be connected to a modified slip yoke. The rest should be very similar. The finished shaft should be about 17 pounds with the slip yoke. Here are pictures of the components that are used in making the driveshaft. The parts on the left are used for carbon shafts, and the parts on the right are for aluminum shafts:

http://driveshaftshop.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/carbon-ends-8-inch1.jpg

The bars that mate with the CV are 30 spline and are made out of a high tech 4130 alloy. The dimensions are similar to a Viper T56 output shaft. DSS has gone to great lengths to validate all the components that are used in making the CF driveshafts. This includes destructive testing, which few manufacturers ever do:

http://driveshaftshop.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/carbon-small1.jpg

As you can see, the 1350 u-joint failed before the tube or the aluminum yoke. I feel very confident that this shaft will outlast every other component in my driveline. I can't wait....

Andrew

[6 Grrrs]

Tod,

I would think that lowered pick-ups have similar driveline issues as a-bodies. As you lower them, the pinion starts to get higher relative to the output shaft of the transmission. The solution is to keep raising the back of the transmission, but there is a limit to how much that can be done.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of driveshaft are you running? Is it one piece? What material and diameter? Do you know the approximate length?

Andrew

I don't remember the length, but it is a one piece driveshaft. The original was one piece as well. Shortbed regular cabs typically do not have a carrier bearing/2 pc driveshaft (at least in the '88-98 2wds).

Short story...I was about 300-400 miles into the 2007 Power Tour (Kalamazoo MI), when I decided I couldn't handle the drivetrain vibrations anymore. Monday Morning at 7am I was at the local driveshaft shop to have them check my driveshaft for balance. I had just installed 4.56 gears (from 3.73s) in the 14bolt with a new Eaton diff, new bearings, etc. I finished it the day before we left and it felt fine the little bit I drove it around town, but I never got up to highway speeds. I also had pulled the driveshaft and had it shortened/rebalanced (only about 1/2" shorter) because ever since I did the T56 swap, the driveshaft was a little long and was always a pain in the a$$ to get out (pickups have the fuel tank inside the framerail and my 3" dual exhaust is on the other side - needless to say there really isn't much room to remove the driveshaft). Whne the straps were unbolted, you had to rotate the yoke & drivewshaft to find the 'sweet spot' to get it out.

So the guy who built the shaft in 1999 or 2000 shortened it and 'rebalanced' it. I installed it and was on my way. So back to Kalamazoo...when I pulled the driveshaft, they set it up in the lathe. It had .040" runout!!! It also had no balance weights on it (which I never noticed), AND the front yoke had spread approx 1/8", so the front ujoint was moving all over the place. Basically the shop in Kalamazoo would not repair it. I spent about $350 for a new custom built shaft with about .003" runout, and balanced to within the desired amount (I dont remember exactly). My old shaft was 4" in diameter, this new one was 3" (Cromoly I think). When I questoined the guy building the shaft (owner of the shop) about the smaller diameter, he told me it is the same basic shaft he builds for 1000 hp drag cars, and he would stand behind it for the life of the truck.

Well we were on our way and the vibration had all but stopped for the most part. I have since made some changes to my rear springs, and I believe I affected my pinion angle. The truck launches great (1.78 60 ft on ET Street Radialls - used to be 2.20s, with a best of 1.97). I have Cal Tracs on it too. With the CTs there is some pinion adjustment, but very little, and I believe only down.

My truck is lowered 5" in the front & 7" in the rear, which is pretty low for a C1500. There is a pretty severe vibration around 70mph, and get worse as I go faster. I would imagine the driveshaft is spinning pretty fast with the 27.2" tire and the 4.56's. With the 3.73's I never had any vibration issues.

I guess it wasn't the short story I thought it was :D

[andrewb70]

I don't remember the length, but it is a one piece driveshaft. The original was one piece as well. Shortbed regular cabs typically do not have a carrier bearing/2 pc driveshaft (at least in the '88-98 2wds).

Short story...I was about 300-400 miles into the 2007 Power Tour (Kalamazoo MI), when I decided I couldn't handle the drivetrain vibrations anymore. Monday Morning at 7am I was at the local driveshaft shop to have them check my driveshaft for balance. I had just installed 4.56 gears (from 3.73s) in the 14bolt with a new Eaton diff, new bearings, etc. I finished it the day before we left and it felt fine the little bit I drove it around town, but I never got up to highway speeds. I also had pulled the driveshaft and had it shortened/rebalanced (only about 1/2" shorter) because ever since I did the T56 swap, the driveshaft was a little long and was always a pain in the a$$ to get out (pickups have the fuel tank inside the framerail and my 3" dual exhaust is on the other side - needless to say there really isn't much room to remove the driveshaft). Whne the straps were unbolted, you had to rotate the yoke & drivewshaft to find the 'sweet spot' to get it out.

So the guy who built the shaft in 1999 or 2000 shortened it and 'rebalanced' it. I installed it and was on my way. So back to Kalamazoo...when I pulled the driveshaft, they set it up in the lathe. It had .040" runout!!! It also had no balance weights on it (which I never noticed), AND the front yoke had spread approx 1/8", so the front ujoint was moving all over the place. Basically the shop in Kalamazoo would not repair it. I spent about $350 for a new custom built shaft with about .003" runout, and balanced to within the desired amount (I dont remember exactly). My old shaft was 4" in diameter, this new one was 3" (Cromoly I think). When I questoined the guy building the shaft (owner of the shop) about the smaller diameter, he told me it is the same basic shaft he builds for 1000 hp drag cars, and he would stand behind it for the life of the truck.

Well we were on our way and the vibration had all but stopped for the most part. I have since made some changes to my rear springs, and I believe I affected my pinion angle. The truck launches great (1.78 60 ft on ET Street Radialls - used to be 2.20s, with a best of 1.97). I have Cal Tracs on it too. With the CTs there is some pinion adjustment, but very little, and I believe only down.

My truck is lowered 5" in the front & 7" in the rear, which is pretty low for a C1500. There is a pretty severe vibration around 70mph, and get worse as I go faster. I would imagine the driveshaft is spinning pretty fast with the 27.2" tire and the 4.56's. With the 3.73's I never had any vibration issues.

I guess it wasn't the short story I thought it was :D

Tod,

Everything you describe point to our common problem. When you installed the 4.56 gears the speed of the driveshaft increased, given the same vehicle speed. So before the gear swap, the vibration might have started at a higher speed, above the normal highway cruising speed. Doing some calculations, with the 3.73 rear end the driveshaft was spinning 3450 RPM, given a 27.2 inch tire, at 75mph. With the 4.56 gear the driveshaft was now spinning 4200 RPM, all other things being equal. With the 3.73 gears, 4200 driveshaft RPM was 95 mph, so you never felt the vibration. On top of that, you were running a very heavy 4" steel driveshaft.

So when the guy made the new shaft out of 3" cromoly, it was significantly lighter. Frank from the DSS believes that driveshaft weight is critical for smooth operation. He has come to this conclusion based on his high speed testing with the NASCAR teams that run a 4" driveshaft. Despite the fact that they use a .063" wall thickness tube, they are still quite heavy, and can become unstable at the very high speeds that they experience.

CF has a very high stiffness to weight ratio, which makes it idea for driveshafts.

Andrew

[gearbanger]

Does nascar require a steel driveshaft? Probably or they would be using aluminum or carbon I'm sure.

This is very very interesting, cant wait for the results. Andrew, any idea what the driveshaft project price tag is going to be?

[andrewb70]

Does nascar require a steel driveshaft? Probably or they would be using aluminum or carbon I'm sure.

This is very very interesting, cant wait for the results. Andrew, any idea what the driveshaft project price tag is going to be?

NASCAR rules mandate a steel driveshaft. They should really allow CF because of the safety factor. In case of a major crash the driveshaft can become a lethal projectile. A CF driveshaft will splinter and self destruct in case of a crash.

The cost of the driveshaft will be about the cost of a new Camaro CF shaft.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

The first part of the driveline project arrived yesterday. The Mark Williams billet pinion yoke is a work of art. There are numerous machined surfaces taht can be used to measure runout.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo145.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo146.jpg

Andrew

[andrewb70]

I am once again impressed by Frank at The Driveshaft Shop. He had the yoke done by last Friday and today he was able to have it black oxide coating applied to it and have pictures taken.

Here is the modified Spicer yoke:

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo147.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo148.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo149.jpg


The gold colored part is a cap that keeps the grease from leaking out the back of the CV:


http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo150.jpg

This is a detailed shot of the modified yoke with the CV and front of the driveshaft:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo151.jpg

Finally, a shot of the complete assembly. Interestingly, Frank was building a shaft just like mine for another project that had similar driveline alignment issues. It's a custom 1961 Corvette that will get a monster twin turbo engine.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo152.jpg

Frank will send me the slip yoke so that I can give him the final measurement for the driveshaft.

Andrew

[gearbanger]

Hey Andrew,

I was reading back through this thread and I thought when you replaced the rear pinion yoke that you had this vibration issue fixed? It sounded that way? Did you not ever test it out on the road before you pulled the tranny?

[andrewb70]

After I replaced the pinion yoke the vibration got better but it wasn't totally eliminated. I put about 2000 miles on the car after I swapped pinion yokes.

Andrew

[HWYSTR455]

I'm watching curiously, and impressed with the parts selection. Looking forward to hearing about the results! Know how frustrating stuff like this can be first hand!

.

[gearbanger]

Okay, well, you were saying that it got alot better and still vibrated in 6th a little. I hope the tranny redo will solve it. Any chance you will give it a try with the original driveshaft before swapping to the new CV shaft?

[andrewb70]

Okay, well, you were saying that it got alot better and still vibrated in 6th a little. I hope the tranny redo will solve it. Any chance you will give it a try with the original driveshaft before swapping to the new CV shaft?

My old yoke had more run out than was desirable. I forget the exact numbers, but they are listed earlier in this thread. I swapped to a different yoke and the runout was better, but the vibration persisted, although at a lower level. I may be able to try the old shaft as a fall back if the new shaft is not ready for my planned road trip. When my transmission failed the slip yoke got damaged as well. So for me to install the old shaft I would have to swap the slip yoke. I would rather not incur that extra expense if I don't have to. I seriously doubt that the transmission was the cause of the vibration. The vibration was there even when the transmission was new.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

I'm watching curiously, and impressed with the parts selection. Looking forward to hearing about the results! Know how frustrating stuff like this can be first hand!

.

Thanks! I am looking forward to the results as well. Frustration can be a very powerful motivator. In my search for answers I ran across the attached PDF from Spicer. It has some very interesting information on page 9 and 10 about compound angles.

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/J3311-1-HVTSS.pdf

If the rear end in my GTO is offset it may not cause a vibration by itself, but it can certainly contribute to the compound working angle.

Andrew

[6 Grrrs]

Thanks! I am looking forward to the results as well. Frustration can be a very powerful motivator. In my search for answers I ran across the attached PDF from Spicer. It has some very interesting information on page 9 and 10 about compound angles.

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/J3311-1-HVTSS.pdf

If the rear end in my GTO is offset it may not cause a vibration by itself, but it can certainly contribute to the compound working angle.

Andrew

Nice find and great read.

[andrewb70]

Bill Howell and I installed the transmission last night without too much fanfare. I also measured for the driveshaft, which came out to be 55 3/4" from the face of the yoke where the CV mounts to the center of the u-joint on the pinion yoke. Speaking of pinion yokes, after much deliberation I decided that it would be wise to reset the preload on the pinion bearings. This is something that I am not comfortable tackling myself, but one of Bill's friends will handle the task. He has set-up several rear ends for Bill and knowing how hard Bill beats on his cars, I am sure he will do a fine job.

Today I am tackling some minor tasks. I need to pick up a new crush sleeve and pinion seal, an 0-ring for the back-up sensor, and ship the slip yoke back to the DSS so the new driveshaft can be balanced as an assembly.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Here are a few of pictures of the transmission and how the new slip yoke sits in the tunnel. You can see in the pictures where my old, 1350 yoke used to make contact with the body. Since the front driveline angle is of no concern, I can safely lower the back of the transmission slightly and get enough clearance for the CV joint.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo153.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo154.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo155.jpg

Andrew

[andrewb70]

So far, everything is going according to schedule. Since I was replacing the pinion yoke, I chose to have the pinion bearing pre-load reset. That procedure went smoothly, so the rear end is all set.

The DSS made my driveshaft last week and it is on its way to me. The shipping weight on the driveshaft is 25 pounds with the packaging. I suspect the finished weight of the driveshaft is right around 20 pounds with the slip yoke. I would guess that is easily 15 pounds less than my previous driveshaft. While weight saving was a not a primary concern, it is certainly a nice side benefit. The lighter weight will also be gentler on all the bearings in the transmission and rear end. With some luck I should be taking a test drive on Monday evening. Wish me luck!

Andrew

[andrewb70]

The driveshaft arrived this evening and I got right on installing it.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo156.jpg

It looks amazing. I will take more pictures tomorrow with a better camera.

Once the shaft was bolted up, I measured my driveline angles. Since the front u-joint has been replaced with a CV joint, the front working angle is not irrelevant. The rear angle needs to be as low as possible without being zero. I adjusted my rear control arms so the rear working angle is .5 degrees with the pinion slightly down. This way, under power the pinion will want to climb and the angle should get less or increase slightly in the other direction.

Test drive tomorrow.

Andrew

[Motornoggin]

That looks pretty dang cool.

[andrewb70]

Hello Everyone...

I have to apologize for the less than timely update to this thread. It has been a very busy week and a crazy few days. As promised here are a few more pictures of the CV driveshaft from the DSS.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo158.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo157.jpg

On Wednesday I headed out from Pigeon Forge to Bowling Green, KY. It was the most pleasant drive I have ever done in my GTO. The vibration that I was experiencing before is now completely gone. The car was smooth as glass at all reasonable highway speeds. I ran it up to about 90 and there were no noticeable driveline vibrations that I could detect.

From BG, KY I headed to Chicago to pick up my son. On Friday morning we headed out to the Lane Automotive Motor State Challenge. My goal for attending the event was to enjoy some time with my son and reconnect with some car friends. However, I couldn't resist taking my car on the Gingerman race track. I also figured that some track time will really test my newly rebuilt transmission and the new driveshaft. Gingerman has two long straights where the car can be easily taken up to over 120 mph.

On Saturday we headed to the track, passed tech, and were ready to go. I ran three sessions with my son riding shotgun and managed to get into the to 16 in the Pro-Touring class which consisted of any vehicle older than 30 years. My best time was 1:55.xx At high speeds the driveline was super smooth and the car performed very well. No drama, no puking fluids, 200 degree water temp.

I will post more later...

Andrew

[gearbanger]

Dude, that is awesome! I am so glad it fixed it. Shooting the money shotgun at it can be scary, but if it fixes it then it doesnt really matter what it cost, it's fixed!

[Motornoggin]

Good news! Glad you had a good time my friend!

[andrewb70]

Hello Everyone,

I thought I would give everyone an update as to what I have been up to for the last week. As I posted earlier, I spent Father's Day weekend with my son at the Motor State Challenge. We had a great time and the car performed very well.

On Monday (6-20-11), I picked up my daughter and we headed west. Our mission was to spend some quality time together and visit some of my friends. It also gave us an opportunity to see some of the most breathtaking scenery in the world. Monday evening we arrived safely in Lincoln, NE where we spent the night at my friend Brian's house. Brian is a great guy and he is actually the person that did the body work and paint on my car.

Tuesday (6-21-11) morning we continued our journey west and made our first scenic stop. Well, perhaps the word "scenic" is not entirely accurate to describe Buford, WY, but the town is certainly unique. Buford, Wyoming is the highest town on I-80 between San Francisco and New York City. It also has the distinction of being the smallest town in the US, with a population of 1. Word has it that it used to be a population of 2, but the father of the man that lives in town passed away.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo159a.jpg

From Buford, WY we traveled a little further west and reached our final destination, Laramie, Wyoming, where my good friend Rory lives. I've known Rory since high school and he is a dear friend and a fellow car and motorcycle enthusiast. Rory's current car is a very neat 1966 Corvair Corsa. The Corsa has a turbo charged engine that makes 180HP. It's a very clean, low mileage (25K miles) car that was repainted (by Brian) and has been slightly lowered. Very cool car! (fukk Ralph Nader. These cars are super cool.)

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo159b.jpg

On Wednesday (6-22-11), my daughter and I made our first trip over the Rocky Mountains. We headed west and reached the town of Centennial, WY. While Centennial is 100 times the size of Buford, it is still no more than a clearing in the road and the last stop before heading over Snowy Range.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo160.jpg

On our way up over Snowy Range we had a chance to make some stops at various scenic outlooks. The Rockies have received an exceptionally high snowfall this year and there is still much snow on the ground at higher elevations. In fact, Rory told me that as recently as two weeks before our visit, Snowy Range got over 6 inches of fresh snowfall.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo161.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo162.jpg

As we climbed higher in elevation, the snow pack got higher and more dense. We eventually made it over Snowy Range pass and had lunch in Saratoga, WY. The North Platte river runs through Saratoga, and it was very high and moving very fast. Quite an amazing sight to see.

On Thursday (6-23-11) Rory took the day off and we headed to Estes Park, Colorado. Rory and I graduated from Park High School in Estes Park and he many of his close family reside there. Estes Park is a little tourist town with a population of about 5,000 in the winter and 50,000 in the summer. Many people have summer homes there, and millions of people pass through every summer on their way to Rocky Mountain National Park. We headed up Trail Ridge Road which connects Estes Park with Grand Lake. About a third of the way up we stopped at an outlook point to take some pictures. The scenery is simply breathtaking.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo163.jpg

Don't try this with your carbureted muscle car kids! This picture was taken at an altitude of about 9,000 feet. Modern day fuel with ethanol is prone to vapor lock in low pressure fuel systems. I doubt that my car would have made it up that high if it had a carburetor. My wideband O2 sensor showed a constant 14.0-14.9 AFR the whole way up.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo164.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo166.jpg

My daughter and Rory were having a good time, goofing off. I think the thin air was getting to them....LOL

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo165.jpg

The drive over Trail Ridge road is even higher than Snowy Range. Trail Ridge road is the highest continuous road in the USA, reaching a peak of over 12,000 feet! The snow pack on the way up was even higher than Snowy Range.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo167.jpg

Passing just over the peak and heading down the western slope there is a little store that sells all sorts of souvenirs and trinkets.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo168.jpg

We headed down the western slope of the Rockies and reached the town of Grand Lake, CO. From there we headed to Walden, CO and eventually towards the road to Saratoga, WY. We crossed back over Snowy Range and ended up in Centennial, WY where I took the following picture.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo169.jpg

Before heading back (6-24-11) to Lincoln, NE, I snapped the following picture. It shows all the bugs we killed on the day before.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo170.jpg

We spent the night at Brian's house again and headed back to Chicago, IL on Saturday (2-25-11). While visiting Estes Park, Rory's father suggested that we make a stop at the Strategic Air and Space Museum, which is located between Lincoln and Omaha, NE. I am so glad we went. I always loved airplanes and actually wanted to be a pilot when I was younger. We pulled up and were greeted to the sight of several Air Force rockets.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo171.jpg

Once we stepped inside the front doors, this is what greeted us at the door!

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo172.jpg

It was simply amazing to see the SR-71 Blackbird in person. It's hard to imagine that this plane could fly from New York to London in 1 hour and 55 minutes. In fact, the true top speed is still classified!

The museum is full of really neat planes, helicopters, and space craft. I am sure that many of you eagle eyed people will spot numerous important aircraft in this picture:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo173.jpg

Overall this was an amazing trip. The opportunity to drive my favorite car and share quality time with my daughter was simply amazing. She will be 11 in October and was a trooper in the car. I plan on doing similar road trips in the summer with my kids for as long as they will hang out with me. :)

My speedometer and consequently my odometer were not working for this trip, but using Google maps I was able to get a rough estimate of the total distance that I traveled. Here is a break down of the mileage. Keep in mind that this doesn't include minor trips here and there and the racing miles around Gingerman Raceway.

Wednesday 6-15-2011
Pigeon Forge, TN to Bowling Green, KY – 244

Thursday 6-16-2011
Bowling Green, KY to Geneva, IL – 439

Friday 6-17-2011
Geneva, IL to Watervliet, MI – 141
Cruise -- 50

Saturday 6-18-2011
Gingerman Raceway 15 racing laps = 30 racing miles

Sunday 6-19-2011
Watervliet, MI to Geneva, IL – 141

Monday 6-20-2011
Geneva, IL to Lincoln, NE – 486

Tuesday 6-21-2011
Lincoln, NE to Laramie, WY – 490

Wednesday 6-22-2011
Laramie, WY to Saratoga, WY – 79
Saratoga, WY to Laramie, WY - 79

Thursday 6-23-11
Laramie, WY to Estes Park, CO – 106
Estes Park, CO to Grand Lake, Co – 47
Grand Lake, CO to Walden, CO – 71
Walden, CO to Riverside, WY – 49
Riverside, WY to Centennial, WY – 50
Centennial, WY to Laramie, WY – 30
Total – 353 miles

Friday 6-24-2011
Laramie, WY to Lincoln, NE – 490

Saturday 6-25-2011
Lincoln, NE to Geneva, IL – 486

Sunday 6-26-2011
Geneva, IL to Pigeon Forge, TN – 601

Grand Total = 4,379

At the end of my road trip I traveled nearly 4,400 miles in my GTO. The car ran beautifully and without any high speed vibrations. Both Nebraska and Wyoming have 75 mph speed limits on the highways, which means going 85 mph is not a huge deal. The GTO does 85 mph at about 2,400 RPM and is smooth as silk. I want to thank the following people and companies for making this trip possible:

Bill Howell - Without your generous help and hospitality, this trip would not be remotely possible.

Rory and Brian - You are my dear friends and I appreciate everything you two have done for me over the years.

The Driveshaft Shop - Without Frank's innovation and attention to detail, my car would still be shaking itself apart at speeds over 75 mph.

Global West - Their various suspension components have taken a licking and kept on ticking.

ATS - Their spindles are amazing and allow me to use the very effective, OEM quality C6 Z06 brakes on the front.

GM - The LSx engine family is amazing and makes road trips like this possible. Without the modern engine and EFI my car would never have traveled over the high altitudes or gotten more than 20 MPG on the trip.

Mike Norris - Mike's tuning smoothed out a few rough spots in my tune and made the journey trouble free.

Detroit Speed and Engineering - The Midwest is plagued by severe summer storms. DSE's modern windshield wiper system kept my windshield clean and allowed me to navigate safely through the inclement weather.

In the end, I want everyone to take trips in their favorite cars. We spend years and thousands of dollars building our dream cars, and unfortunately many end up sitting pretty in the garage without having a chance to do what they were built to do: DRIVE!!!

Andrew

[Motornoggin]

Isn't that museum cool? One of my favorite places! I had a great time my friend! Thanks for coming out!

[andrewb70]

Isn't that museum cool? One of my favorite places! I had a great time my friend! Thanks for coming out!

It was really great to see you too, my friend!

The good folks at Lane Automotive had a photographer during the entire event and I want to thank him for taking these pictures at Gingerman.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo177.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo178.jpg

I really love going on a road course and not just an autocross. Autocrosses are OK, but nothing compares to being on a technical road course, like Gingerman, and learning the proper line around every corner. I wish that I would have taken an experienced driver along on one of my sessions. I have no doubt that my time would have improved by seconds. In fact, I was given a quick tip on how to successfully navigate one of the corners and that tip alone was worth 2 seconds on my subsequent session.

Good times...

Andrew

[pont3]

I am SOOOO Jealous of you! Someday, I, too, will take unlimited trips in my favorite GTO ('72). My "new" GTOs have convinced me the merits of the LS engines and my "old" GTO is in line for one. Thanks for sharing.

[andrewb70]

I am SOOOO Jealous of you! Someday, I, too, will take unlimited trips in my favorite GTO ('72). My "new" GTOs have convinced me the merits of the LS engines and my "old" GTO is in line for one. Thanks for sharing.

I am glad to be of an inspiration. If people actually want to drive their classic muscle cars, Pontiacs or whatever, modern EFI engines are hard to beat. If people want to cruise down to the car show and sit around polishing their shift knobs, then old technology and carburetors work just fine.

Andrew

[stobin]

Really great thread Andrew. Love the idea of taking your daughter for a summer trip in the car. I have the same aspirations with my 14 y/o daughter in the Grand Am, which is now in the process of receiving a 440 inch LS motor thanks in part to you and your GTO story.

[Charlie Brengun]

so did you get the GTO up to 120 mph at the track? how did it perform?

I like the pics, some parts of the US are truly beautiful.. lots of places left for me to vacation too ;)

[HWYSTR455]

...the Grand Am, which is now in the process of receiving a 440 inch LS motor ....


Ok, you got my attention! Curious, what were some of the other motivators there?

Andrewb70 - Curious about the track time too. One thing that plagues the 68-72 A-body is the 'oscillation' in the rear suspension that occurs under hard power around a sweeping turn at speed. Have you experienced this? It's present in every A-body I've ever driven (hard), except one that had a truck-arm suspension. It's a hairy ride when it happens, and you KNOW it's happening...

.

[andrewb70]

Really great thread Andrew. Love the idea of taking your daughter for a summer trip in the car. I have the same aspirations with my 14 y/o daughter in the Grand Am, which is now in the process of receiving a 440 inch LS motor thanks in part to you and your GTO story.

That will be an amazing ride. I can't wait to read about the build and the road trip. I've always loved the Grand Ams. Such neat cars!!! Good luck with the project.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

so did you get the GTO up to 120 mph at the track? how did it perform?

I like the pics, some parts of the US are truly beautiful.. lots of places left for me to vacation too ;)

I got the car up to about 110mph on the straights. The car performed very well. The handling is very predictable and stable, without any bad tendencies. It has some understeer but getting on the throttle brings the back around nicely.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Ok, you got my attention! Curious, what were some of the other motivators there?

Andrewb70 - Curious about the track time too. One thing that plagues the 68-72 A-body is the 'oscillation' in the rear suspension that occurs under hard power around a sweeping turn at speed. Have you experienced this? It's present in every A-body I've ever driven (hard), except one that had a truck-arm suspension. It's a hairy ride when it happens, and you KNOW it's happening...

.

My best time around Gingerman was 1:56. It was enough to get me in the top 16 of the Pro-Touring class. I am not sure that I have ever experienced anything like what you are describing. Then again, keep in mind that I was not really pushing the car as much as I could have. I had my son riding with me on all of the sessions and I wasn't about to do anything stupid. The car has no cage and I am was out there just for fun. I also knew that I had a road trip out west and a drive back home in front of me.

Andrew

[HWYSTR455]

1:56 is respectable from what I understand, way to go! And totally understand not wanting to tow it home!

I've been itching to get out there on a road course, another year or so and will make it happen. Will have to get a go camera or something, so I can hammer out my technique.

.

[andrewb70]

Just saw the latest issue of PHR magazine and on the last page I got a little ink from the coverage of the Motor State Challenge.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo179.jpg

A big thanks to Robert McGaffin for covering the event and to Johnny Hunkins for including a picture of my car in the coverage.

With some luck I will be at LS Fest next weekend!

Andrew

[andrewb70]

This past weekend I drove to Bowling Green, KY to attend the Holley LS Fest. Everyone from Holley and FM3 did an amazing job with the event. It was great to see so many old friends and meet some new people. My main goal for the event was to have a good time. The LS Fest offers something for everyone: drag racing, auto cross, speed stop challenge, drift exhibition, country cruise, and show and shine.

On Saturday morning I did a session of autocrossing and it was a good reminder how much I dislike the experience. My car is really not set-up for it and it wallowed around the course like a pregnant yak. Give me a high speed road course and I'll be a smiling fool...

I also participated in the True Street class of the drag racing competition. True street is a good time because it starts with a 30 mile cruise followed by 3 rounds of drag racing. The drive really does a nice job of separating real street cars from race cars. Lingenfelter Performance was the lead sponsor and drove their LS9 powered 5th Gen Camaro, which completed the drive without any problems. Once we were back at the track everyone drove directly to the staging lanes where adjustments to the car were no longer permitted. Everyone runs on an index, meaning the goal is to get as close to a whole number time as possible without going over, over a three run average. So technically there is an unlimited number of classes, but realistically it broke down into 13 second, 12 sec, 11, 10, 9, and overall winner.

Earlier in the day, during practice sessions I ran a best of 12.65@111mph, but my very first practice pass was a 13.038, so the natural place for me to compete was in the 13 second index. On the first round pass I ran a 13.002. Second round was a 12.998. That put me at a perfect 13.000, but I had to race one more round. If I went under 13 seconds that would have been over for me, so the goal was to run as close to 13 seconds as possible without going over. On my last pass I ran a 13.038, which put me at 13.012 for a three run average. That was good enough for the win and a $100 bucks in my pocket. Good times...

I want to thank my good friend Bill Howell for bringing my car. If it wasn't for his kindness I would never be able to do this event.

[stobin]

Well that is one of the events I would like to attend in the future. It sounds like you had a lot of fun. Great to hear your getting to enjoy the GTO to it's fullest potential. I guess they dont have road coarse event?

[andrewb70]

Well that is one of the events I would like to attend in the future. It sounds like you had a lot of fun. Great to hear your getting to enjoy the GTO to it's fullest potential. I guess they dont have road coarse event?

The Holley LS Fest is really a great event. The event takes place at Beech Bend Raceway, which is a 1/4 drag strip and a 3/8 mile paved oval. The autocross was setup using the oval track and its paved in-field.

There is a rumor that the Corvette Museum, which is also located in Bowling Green, KY, is going to build a road course. If that happens, it is entirely possible that LS Fest might include a road course event in the future.

Andrew

[3 Chiefs]

The Holley LS Fest is really a great event. The event takes place at Beech Bend Raceway, which is a 1/4 drag strip and a 3/8 mile paved oval. The autocross was setup using the oval track and its paved in-field.

There is a rumor that the Corvette Museum, which is also located in Bowling Green, KY, is going to build a road course. If that happens, it is entirely possible that LS Fest might include a road course event in the future.

Andrew

Andrew I was admiring your car at LS Fest. I was looking for you but didn't see you around when I was there Friday. I know what you look like because I seen your V8 TV video. Anyway I really like your car and was explaining to my wife how much you drive this car and how much you have fun with it. She thought that was cool and thinks I should build mine to drive the wheels off of it too.
You are right, LS Fest was a good time.

Paul

[andrewb70]

Andrew I was admiring your car at LS Fest. I was looking for you but didn't see you around when I was there Friday. I know what you look like because I seen your V8 TV video. Anyway I really like your car and was explaining to my wife how much you drive this car and how much you have fun with it. She thought that was cool and thinks I should build mine to drive the wheels off of it too.
You are right, LS Fest was a good time.

Paul

Paul,

I am sorry that I missed you. I actually didn't arrive at Beech bend until about 6:00PM on Friday. My friend Bill Howell was kind enough to bring the car on Friday morning. He was the one doing the auto-cross on Friday.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

For the sake of continuity I wanted to post an update to what's been happening with my car. Since doing the LS swap, I really haven't been able to do many events due to the circumstances in my life. Also, the car has been in storage, with the kindness of friends, but I now have the car with me in Memphis. Back in March I looked at the schedule of events at Memphis International Raceway, and I noticed that the local BMW club holds regular autocrosses at the track. My girlfriend and I attended the March autocross hosted by the Rivercity Bimmers. As it turned out, any car is welcome to participate and the guys were all very friendly. We decided that for the next event we would bring the GTO and participate in the fun.

Yesterday was a gorgeous day. We finally had a break from the rains and the temperature was in the high 60s. There was a slight breeze, but overall, it was a great day. The course wasn't really a true autocross. There is actually a road course setup at MIR and the autocross used a section of the road course for sections of the track. It was very fast and a lot of fun. Cars were a mix of BMWs, a Miata, and a small contingent of Subarus.

The fast time of the day was set by a lightly modified Subaru STi. He ran the course in 56.xx seconds. My first run of the day was 1:04.xx, but as I got more familiar with the course and got a few pointers from a more experienced driver, I was able to get down under a minute. My best run was 59.xx, at which point I called it a day. This was about as much fun as I have had for 30 bucks...

I had a car mount for my cell phone, and I was able to capture some decent videos of my runs. I made a compilation of a several runs. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5xewTdkzD0

Andrew

[chief455]

NICE!

[andrewb70]

I have a curse. It is the same curse that inflicts many of you. This curse makes people crazy and makes them do things for no apparent reason. I am speaking of the inability to leave well enough alone. My car is fine. It drives great, runs hard, brakes well. But I can't leave it alone.

I have never been 100% satisfied with the rear brakes. It is an older Baer Track system that uses a small C4 Corvette caliper (40mm piston bore) and a 12" rotor. When I was doing the last round of updates a few years ago, I noticed that the caliper bracket was slightly bent. I never really tracked down the reason why this might happen, but it was a little unsettling. So after doing some reading on the forum, I decided to install the 4th gen Camaro LS brake system. The LS brakes have amazingly sturdy cast iron caliper brackets, bigger calipers (45mm piston bore), and I will eventually incorporate the drum style e-brake.

Here are a few teaser shots of the components.

I sourced the brackets from a very good seller on LS1tech, who was parting out a 1999 Firebird. After a trip to the sandblaster and a couple of coats or Rustoleum Silver grill paint, they are good to go:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo180.jpg

Being on a limited budget, I was basically forced to use re-manufactured calipers. I got on Rockauto and found that Powerstop sells a set of calipers that are powder coated red for under $150 for the pair. They look very well put together and will add a touch of matching color to the rear:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo181.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo182.jpg

To round out the brake upgrade, I got a set of Raybestos professional grade rotors and semi-metalic pads. Raybestos is currently running a rebate of $5 per rotor and $15 for a set of pads. The rotor is coated (maybe e-coat) and should stay looking nice for a little longer than plain rotors.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo183.jpg

The other main reason for the timing of this upgrade is that I will be having the ring and pinion gear swapped by a shop. I don't have the space or tool to do any of the work myself, and I figure that since the rear end will be completely disassembled, adding new brake components should add minimal to the cost of the swap. The main reason for swapping gears is to eliminate excessive gear whine under light load. This is very annoying when going down the highway, and after talking to several trusted people, the consensus was that a new R&P set would be needed. I am also going down to a 3.42 gear (from 3.73) to reduce highway cruising RPM.

Stay tuned for further updates.

Andrew

[Wick]

Andrew, I noticed your LS brakets don't have the anti lock hole, the hole is there but it's not machined through. I had to use a freeze plug to fill mine in but only after I massaged it a touch.

Let me know how you get the e brake to work too, the lever is very close to the shock mount.

[6 Grrrs]

Andrew...What rear end is in your car? I can't remember if you run a stock 1970 Abody rear or possibly a 12 bolt.

Also I am interested in how the ebrake works on these calipers? Is it a mini drum inside the hat of the rotor, or incorporated into the caliper (like the ratchet setup from the '80's GM cars)? That rotor does not look like it is shaped properly for a pair of shoes inside, but also I cannot see tha backside of the caliper with the ratchet assembly.

[andrewb70]

These brackets are from a 1999 Firebird. I think it might have had the 3 channel ABS system, which would explain why the brackets are not machined for the ABS sensors.

The parking brake setup has a drum style inside the brake rotor. I am not implementing the e-brake now because I don't have a pedal for the e-brake in my car (long story). I will eventually make the e-brake functional but I will have to install a hand operated lever.

I have a Chevy 12 bolt that I got many years ago.

Andrew

[69*Goat]

I will eventually make the e-brake functional but I will have to install a hand operated lever.
Andrew


Is "Drifting" in the future of your GTO Andrew? LOL.

[andrewb70]

Is "Drifting" in the future of your GTO Andrew? LOL.

Not exactly. I don't have a pedal or cable installed for the e-brake due to speakers in the kick panels...

Andrew

[HWYSTR455]

Not exactly. I don't have a pedal or cable installed for the e-brake due to speakers in the kick panels...

Andrew

Did you use the pre-formed kick panels that have provisions for speakers, or did you cut out OE ones? The ones that come with the cutouts allow for the e-brake. If you didn't use those, maybe swap over?

You can also space out the e-brake assembly to clear the speaker. It will probably get wobbly though if you go too far. The kick panel kind of guides your foot straight so you don't put a side load on the pedal.

A lot of rear disc calipers require an e-brake to maintain proper preload, but would imagine that's redundant info for you.

.

[andrewb70]

Did you use the pre-formed kick panels that have provisions for speakers, or did you cut out OE ones? The ones that come with the cutouts allow for the e-brake. If you didn't use those, maybe swap over?

You can also space out the e-brake assembly to clear the speaker. It will probably get wobbly though if you go too far. The kick panel kind of guides your foot straight so you don't put a side load on the pedal.

A lot of rear disc calipers require an e-brake to maintain proper preload, but would imagine that's redundant info for you.

.

I used the kick panels from whatever vendors sells them, I forget now. But I installed different speakers in them and they stick out quite a bit. At this point getting a pedal in there will require way more work than I am willing to do, so it will just stay that way for now. The LS1 rear brake calipers are completely removed from the e-brake, so I don't see any issues there.

Some progress has been made. I feel terrible having to outsource some of this work, but I really have no choice. Luckily, the shop where the work is being done came highly recommended and they allowed me to hang out while they did the work. The owner's son was doing the work, and he was doing a good job.

Here is the new gear installed:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo184.jpg

The brakes were mounted on the passenger side without any drama. The caliper abutment was well spaced away from the rotor and there was no contact even when the axle was pulled out all the way against the C-clip.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo185.jpg

The driver's side, for some reason, wasn't as cooperative. The caliper abutment was nowhere close to fitting and after taking some measurements, we determined that the axle offset on the driver's side was .125" more than on the passenger side. I don't know why this is the case, but we ended up using some precision washers to space the caliper bracket away from the rear housing flange. Once that was done, everything lined up great.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo186.jpg

Luckily, the guy doing the work was paying attention and he noticed that the driver's side hard line from the center to the caliper was pinched.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo187.jpg

There were marks on the exhaust where it looked like the rear end hit during a hard bump. Since the hard line runs over the top of the axle it got smashed. New lines will be made and they will be routed along the backside of the axle tube instead of over the top.

Andrew

[HWYSTR455]

Maybe swap the speakers out?

.

[andrewb70]

Maybe swap the speakers out?

.

Must have good tunes, hello! LOL

I will eventually install a level in the trans hump. Or, I saw this the other day:

http://www.estopp.com/

It looks shallow enough that I think it can be mounted above the driveshaft in the trans tunnel.

Andrew

[6 Grrrs]

That seems overcomplicated for a simple task. It is slow and the beeping would drive me nuts.

How about a simple OEM handle from a Honda or something, mounted to the tunnel?

[andrewb70]

How about a simple OEM handle from a Honda or something, mounted to the tunnel?

This is the direction I'm leaning towards, but honestly, it won't happen until v3.0 of the GTO build...lol


Andrew

[andrewb70]

Well, the gear swap is finally done and I couldn't be happier. It is quiet and the ratio is perfect.

The rear brakes are definitely exerting more force. This is due to the larger bore of the piston and the fact that Raybestos Advanced Technology pads are fairly aggressive, even when cold. The rear brakes lock up now, and they never did before. I have an adjustable prop valve, so if need be, I will reduce the pressure to the rear. I will hold off on doing that now, because I am first going to change the front set-up slightly.

I got ahold of Alan Bailis, who used to work at Kinesis when I bought my wheels. My name came up on his caller ID and he knew exactly who I was. Pretty amazing for a man that has serviced thousands of customer. He is now working for Fikse, but after explaining what I needed, he was able to help. I ordered two inner wheel halves that are 1.5" wide than my current wheels. This will widen my from wheels from 8" to 9.5". I checked for clearance, and I see no reason why I can't run 275 tires in the front. I am also considering running the new BFg Rival tires in 275/35 front and 295/35 rear.

When I widen the front wheels, I will also install a set of Raybestos pads on the front in place of the current Hawk HP pads. I like how the Raybestos pads work when cold and after talking to Tobin at Kore3.com, he said that I will probably like the Raybestos pads. If, after going to a wider front tire and new pads, the rear still lock up before the front, then I will reduce pressure to the rear to balance things out.

I also got my speedometer working and calibrated. As you all might recall, when I had the Richmond trans rebuilt, I had them take out the speedometer gear. I did that so I would not have to worry about the slip yoke hitting the gear. This is a concern with the Richmond 6 speed transmissions. With the loss of the speedo gear in the transmission, I no longer had a source to drive my VDO speed sensor.

Luckily, I have ATS spindles that have a built in ABS sensors in the C5/6 hubs. Dorman sells the ABS jumper harness that fits the C5/6 ABS sensor: PN 970-007.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo188.jpg

One of the leads needs to be grounded, while the other lead is the signal wire. It doesn't matter which is which. Run the signal wire to the Autometer gauge and recalibrate. The ABS sensor will start sending pulses after 2-3 turns of the wheel.

The C5/6 hubs have a 48 tooth reluctor wheel. I am running 255/40-18 tires in the front, which according to TireRack, are 801 turns per mile, so for the two mile calibration period, they will turn 1602 times.

1602 x 48 = 76,896 pulses per 2 miles. Having that information, you don't even need to measure out an accurate 2 mile stretch of road. I started my calibration and when the counter on the speedo got to 76,000 I stopped it. I compared the speedo reading to the GPS reading on my phone and the speedo was slow by about 2 mph. I assumed that the GPS is accurate. So I repeated the calibration and stopped it when the counter got to 74,000 and now the speedo reads exactly the same as the GPS.

Andrew

[HWYSTR455]

Once I go through the driver (again) I will look into the Raybestos pads, have heard good things about them. I ran the hawks for a while, but they just don't work well until hot. (As you eluded to). I've had some white-knuckle experiences on exit ramps that I would like to avoid in the future! I have some Delco pads on there now, forget which, but they suffer once very hot.

I would love some nice wheels, especially on the 'bird. I dream about the Fikses! The LeMans has 9.5 wide on the front, have tried 275s (17s), but with the wheel opening moulding, there's slight contact at full lock over bumps. (so I dropped back to 255s)

Nice math Andrew! As mentioned, I will be doing a makeover on the driver here in the next year or so, and am looking at speedo/gauge options. Making a note of the part number! Some have been successful (to some degree) getting ABS to work with the AFX spindles, so hopefully by the time I get to that part of the makeover, I can incorp.

On a trivia note, noticed your sequence number on your spindles! So I had to take a shot of mine, which is 000009. (looks like a preceeding 6 in the pic, but is a 0). The original effort was for 67-69 Camaros, and it took me some time to convince Teetoe (Tyler) to do a run for the 2nd gen F/B ones. (he didn't feel there was a market for them initially, and it was the steering arm that needed development). I talked a guy from Texas on the pro-touring site into shipping him some 2nd gen F spindles for a pattern, and that's how I got some of the first run sets. Teetoe worked with a guy over at GW (think it was Mark?) on making specific control arms for the A bodies, and I was lucky to get a first run of those too. I recall Teetoe saying he couldn't keep up with the orders for them, and he was happy to have taken that venture on. Now there's several that are making similar ones, even CPP has them. Wonder how those are, compared to the originals...

.

[andrewb70]

Thanks for the comments.

I looked into trying to get ABS working on my GTO, but I think it would be hard. As you said, several have been able to make it work, with varying degrees of success. Mark Steilow has made it work on a couple of his latest builds, but then again he has access to the engineering resources inside GM. Bosch makes a motorsports system, but it is about 8,000 dollars. It is fully programable and will work on any vehicle. Maybe on the 3rd build of the GTO I will try something...

The CPP spindles are a cast iron version of the ATS spindle, and frankly I don't care for it, for various reasons.

I am really hoping that the wider wheels work out and I can run a 275 tire. It should really help with front end traction.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

It is time to post a few updates on the car. I haven't really been driving it much this summer because of a lack of time, but I am getting excited for my next event. I just registered for the Holley LS Fest and it is time to get the car ready. Here is a list of things that I plan on doing.

1. I noticed when the car gets hot, while siting in traffic, the steering effort increases. I double checked the fluid level and even though it doesn't seem to be boiling or spilling out, I decided to add a power steering cooler. I realize there are various options for this, but it seems that the easiest and most sanitary install will be to use the 4th gen f-body cooler that mounts in the upper radiator hose. Several people have mentioned that this might not be the best solution, but I have the cooler already and I will give it a try.

2. I changed my rear brakes over to 4th gen f-body "LS1" brakes using Raybestos premium pads. I chose these pads after several conversations with Toby at Kore3. As much as I want to believe that I have a race car, I do not, and thus I need my brakes to work even when they are cold. The Raybestos pads have a similar friction profile to the Hawk HP pads. I will be swapping out the Hawk HP pads, that I have in the front, to the Raybestos premium pads, to match the rears.

3. There is no denying that having bigger front tires is more desirable. My current tire size is 255/40-18. I've been running this size mainly because my front wheels are only 8" wide. During the recent brake upgrades, I've had the opportunity to really examine how much room I have in the front, and it was clear that I can go with a wider tire and wheel in the front. I managed to track down Alan Balis, who used to work for Kinesis wheels, and after getting some measurements, he sent me these:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo190.jpg

The beauty of having 3-piece wheels is that they can be altered to suit the needs of the application. These are wider inner hoops that will increase the width of my front tires to 9.5" :screwy:

4. With the increase in the front wheel size, I now need bigger tires. I struggled long at hard over my tire choice. My current tires are Falken R615s, which are admittedly an older tire technology. Falken does make a new version of that tire, called the 615k, but I was reluctant to use them because of size availability. I currently run a 295/40-18 in the rear. This is a 27" diameter tire. I want to run a 275/35-18 tire in the front, which is 25.5" tall. I felt that from an aesthetic perspective, the front tires would look too small compared to the rear and it would look funny. Again, as much as I want to believe that I have a race car, I don't, and looks are a factor. Ideally, I would run a 295/35-18 in the rear, but Falken doesn't offer that size in the 615K....

So, the choice was pretty clear. BF Goodrich just came out with their new Rival tire, and by all accounts, this tire kicks a$$. So I pulled the trigger on a set of these:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo189.jpg

The 275/35 fronts and 295/35 rears are a perfect match. The rear is about 26" tall, which is a hair taller than the fronts. They are designed to be used on 9.5" and 10.5" wide wheels, which is exactly what I will have after widening the fronts. The Rivals are a true street tire, with a tread wear rating of 200, which allows me to use them at events like the Holley LS Fest. Using the Rivals was just a natural choice. I am very excited to get them on the car and see how they work, both on the street and on the autocross track.

I will be doing these upgrades sometime in August, so stay tuned for more pictures of the installation process.

Andrew

[HWYSTR455]

Nice tires! I have 9.5s on the front, and 11s on the back, but 17s. Luckily, they fit over the brakes, but it REAL close. The center section is a fraction of an inch from the caliper. I will buy new wheels when I do the freshen up, and will go through the exersize of fitment and clearance then. May ping you to compare notes! Same with tires.

The clone needs pads, the ones on there now are ones that came with the kits, and they squeal like a pig. Very annoying. I will be buying the Raybestos pads for it.

Will be looking forward to your feedback on the pads an tires! Maybe try to get a video or two from the LS Fest!

.

[andrewb70]

Yesterday afternoon I got down to the task of of getting the car ready for the Holley LS Fest, which is only a couple of weeks away, and performing the few little upgrades that I had planned. First order of business was to take the front wheels off the car, break them down, install the wider inner hoop, reassemble, and reseal.

The wheels started life as being 8" wide. In case anyone was wondering, wheel width is measured at the area where the tire bead sits, not on the outside edges.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo191.jpg

Here is the backside of the wheel. Notice the generous scalloping on the back side of the spokes and the hub area of the wheel. This is the reason why this particular wheel is only about 20 pounds. Also notice the generous amount of brake dust. I drive this car!

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo192.jpg

There are 40 fasteners that hold the wheel together. Once the nuts are removed, the wheel center comes out and the wheel halves can be separated. Notice the dead bugs on the inside of the wheels.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo193.jpg

After disassembly, I cleaned the wheel centers with hot water and soap. This works very well to remove all the brake dust and general grime. The wider inner hoop was installed and the fasteners were torqued to 18 lb/ft, in two steps, and in a start pattern, much like when you torque lug nuts.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo194.jpg

Here is the finished wheel, now 9.5" wide and ready for the new BFG Rival 275/35-18 front tires. Important safety tip: make sure you let the silicone dry before putting air in the tires. The pressure will penetrate the uncured seal and will leak, resulting in taking the tire off and doing the seal over again. Not fun!

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo195.jpg

Here is the rear Rival compared to the Falken 615...

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo196.jpg

Today I will be installing the Dodge 7/8" bore MC, so stay tuned for more updates.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

As promised, here are some details for the Dodge 7/8" bore MC. This is what you get for about $60 bucks at O'Reilly Auto Parts. It is a MC for a 1995 Dodge Spirit with manual brakes (14" wheels). This particular model is brand new, made out of aluminum and has a plastic reservoir. These are all features that I like. Wilwood makes a nice 7'8" bore, direct bolt-in MC, but it has a reservoir lid that can only be taken off with an allen wrench. While it looks nice, I want to be able to check the fluid level without getting my tool box out.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo198.jpg

This MC has two ports that have rather small fittings. The catalog description lists the outlet ports as being 3/8" inverted flair, but they sure seemed smaller.

The rear port of the MC is plumbed to the front brakes and nothing was needed to attache the line. The front port of the MC is plumbed to the rear line and required an adapter fitting that you can see in the picture. However, this adapter was too small for the fitting that was on my rear brake line, so what we decided to do was bend another line for the rear brakes. That way if I ever wanted to swap back to the other MC, it would be very simple to swap lines. We bent up a 5/16" line, using the old line as a template. It was fairly straight forward and simple.

The other issue with using this MC is that the mounting holes don't quite match the GM pattern. As you can see, we elected to notch the holes to make it easier.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo199.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo200.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo201.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo202.jpg

The other issue with using this MC is that the pushrod hole is not as deep as the GM MC I was using, so the rod had to be shortened. The tip of the rod also had to be ground down slightly because the Dodge MC has a smaller diameter hole.

The bottom line is that this MC is a fairly easy swap into GM vehicles and is a viable OEM alternative to some of the aftermarket offerings. With a little ingenuity it can be made to work in applications that require a 7/8" bore MC.

The brakes feel very different now. The pedal feel is softer but I haven't really noticed a big increase in pedal travel. I am now easily able to lock up the brakes, when before I couldn't. Clearly the MC is generating more force at the caliper, which is what Ron was attempting to show with his spreadsheet.

A huge thanks to Ron Sutton for giving me the last needed nudge to make the swap to the 7/8" MC.

To wrap it up, here is a picture of the 275/35-18 BFG Rivals on the front.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo203.jpg

There is mild rubbing on the sway bar at the extremes, but I don't see this as a huge issue. I may run a small spacer in the front if it become annoying, but for now I am going to work on a few other minor issues before the Holley LS Fest.

Andrew

[HWYSTR455]

What master did you have on before? You weren't able to lock up the brakes?

I currently am running the 1 1/8 iron universal GM master, with a dual diaphram 9" booster, and with like 13 -15 inches, am able to lock up all 4. I think we're running the same brakes?
.

[andrewb70]

What master did you have on before? You weren't able to lock up the brakes?

I currently am running the 1 1/8 iron universal GM master, with a dual diaphram 9" booster, and with like 13 -15 inches, am able to lock up all 4. I think we're running the same brakes?
.

I have manual brakes and I was using a GM 15/16" bore master from a 1977 Malibu. The extra pressure from the 7/8" master really made a huge difference. The brakes feel awesome now. Manual brakes just feel son precise and give so much feedback, and I didn't want to give that up. With this MC, I don't have to.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

After I had made my previous posts, I realized that I never posted a picture of the MC as it was finally installed. You can see the new 5/16" rear line along with the adapter that was needed. The rear port for the front brakes worked as is.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo204.jpg

I also want to make some comments regarding my first impressions of the Rival tires. I haven't really had a chance to test out the handling, but I can say that the tires are very sticky. I was driving and happened to go over a spot that has some loose sand and I could hear the tires picking up every little pebble as I drove over them. Also, with the Falkens, even when they were new, I could be rolling slowly in 1st gear, punch the throttle, and the tires would spin until I let off or shifted. With the Rivals, doing exactly the same thing, the tires dead hook. I am really excited to get the car out on the autocross and on the drag strip.

Andrew

[pontiac1981]

If you want a Chevy why not just buy a Chevelle?

[andrewb70]

If you want a Chevy why not just buy a Chevelle?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH...

My goodness...that's just a knee slapper. Did it take you all day to come up with that bit of humor? It's so original!!! Cause you know, I haven't heard that one before...

I have an idea, why don't you buzz off and troll some other thread. As far as I can tell, I have contributed dozens of pages of solid tech, while all you have done is made a snarky comment.

Peace out...

Andrew

[Hurst65]

There's always at least one bonehead in every group.... [eyes rolling]

[3 Chiefs]

Yeah he needs to read this moderators post in the sticky.
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3393546&postcount=4

Your car is awesome Andrew. Thanks for all your insight in this forum. I have seen your GTO in person and watched you on the autocross track at LS Fest. Its a great ride that I know you have fun with and its a dependable car too.

These LS transplants are not going away and there will only be more and more of them coming.


Paul

[andrewb70]

Yeah he needs to read this moderators post in the sticky.
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3393546&postcount=4

Your car is awesome Andrew. Thanks for all your insight in this forum. I have seen your GTO in person and watched you on the autocross track at LS Fest. Its a great ride that I know you have fun with and its a dependable car too.

These LS transplants are not going away and there will only be more and more of them coming.


Paul

Paul,

Thank you for the kind words. The LS swap was the single most significant modification that I could have done to the car. For how I want to use the car, it provides a great balance of power, dependability, and fuel economy.

Speaking of LS Fest…The guys from GM High Tech Performance approached me at the show and we had a little photo shoot on Sunday morning. The current issue (Feb 2014) of GM High Tech has a feature on my car. :-)

Andrew

[3 Chiefs]

That's cool. I will look for it. My subscription has expired. I did see your car and you on V8TV a while back.

Paul

[cdoggy81]

Nice!

[Overkillphil]

If you want a Chevy why not just buy a Chevelle?

LS isn't a "Chevy". But if all of ones "knowledge" is gained from car rags/ads (for example), it could explain the lack of understanding.

[Sam Elm]

Andrew....keep the updates coming, I really appreciate them. You have a wealth experience and are more than willing to share, both here and on PT....

[72projectbird]

I give this swap my 1000% approval! I love swapping Lsx based engines into anything they'll fit into. You did a hell of a job, very clean and ment to be worked hard.

Im currently collecting parts to do an LQ4 with a GT45 hanging on the side. That'll be taking place of a Pontiac 455, so Im sure I'll get an ear full also. But its all about what you want to do, not what others think!

[3 Chiefs]

I give this swap my 1000% approval! I love swapping Lsx based engines into anything they'll fit into. You did a hell of a job, very clean and ment to be worked hard.

Im currently collecting parts to do an LQ4 with a GT45 hanging on the side. That'll be taking place of a Pontiac 455, so Im sure I'll get an ear full also. But its all about what you want to do, not what others think!

I agree. It's your car so build it however you like. No one else is putting gas in it or buying parts for it. It's yours.

Paul

[andrewb70]

Thanks for the kind words of support guys! I really appreciate it and I will keep the uptakes coming as they occur. I've had this car for a long time, and I just don't give a darn what anyone says about what I do with my car. If, by sharing what I have done with other, I can help others do the same thing, then I am happy.

Merry Christmas to all!

Andrew

[andrewb70]

If I can't toot my own horn, who will?

Got a nice 4 page feature story in the current (February 2014) issue of GM High Performance and a action shot from LS Fest in the current (February 2014) issue of Popular Hotrodding. Woot!!!

Andrew

[Charlie Brengun]

I love your car, keep up the good work.. I'm taking notes..this is something I want to do as well (hopefully within the next few years)..

[jetallman]

Impressive, I'm considering a ls swap into my 69 bird after the body is finished and like to see these detailed threads like this. Keep up the good work

[andrewb70]

Thanks GM High-Tech Performance!!!

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/features/1402_1970_pontiac_gto_ls3_swap/

Andrew

[HWYSTR455]

Thanks GM High-Tech Performance!!!

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/features/1402_1970_pontiac_gto_ls3_swap/

Andrew

Every wrencher's dream! Nice plug! Congrats!

.

[andrewb70]

There have been various discussion on several forums that I frequent regarding driveline vibrations, angles, etc...

In one of the posts, I made the comment that just about every modern, rear wheel drive, performance car uses CV joints for the driveshaft. We spent all kinds of stupid money to buy the latest engine, transmission, and suspension parts, but when it comes to our driveline components, we still use u-joints that date back to the 19th century. I have used a CV driveshaft with great success, but the optimal solution would be to use a driveshaft that uses a CV joint at both the transmission end and at the pinion. So I called Frank at The Driveshaft Shop to discuss this further and after telling him all this he starts to laugh. Then he proceeds to tell me how he just made a batch of pinion yokes for the Ford 9" and the Chevy 12 bolt rear ends that will accommodate a 108mm (Porsche 930 style) CV joint. He sent me the picture below:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo205.jpg

That particular yoke is for the Ford 9" rear. What this means is that if someone wants the ultimate solution for a driveshaft, this is it. Using CVs at both ends of the driveshaft means that driveline angles become largely irrelevant. The CVs can accommodate up to 9 degrees of articulation and the front and rear angles operating don't have to match, be opposite, or be as small as possible.

Andrew

[GRIM64]

Excellent thread Andrew, I just stayed up most of the night reading the adventure you've gone through with your car. Thanks for posting such in detail pics and information.

I've been on the fence about doing an LS swap into my 69 GTO ..... You sure threw a hell of a lotta weight onto one end of the scale in the decision process.

Love the video of you racing the the BMW guys...

[andrewb70]

Excellent thread Andrew, I just stayed up most of the night reading the adventure you've gone through with your car. Thanks for posting such in detail pics and information.

I've been on the fence about doing an LS swap into my 69 GTO ..... You sure threw a hell of a lotta weight onto one end of the scale in the decision process.

Love the video of you racing the the BMW guys...

Thank you! I am glad you found it entertaining and informative. What part of WI are you in? I am moving to Oshkosh in a few months.

Andrew

[GRIM64]

I'm right between Madison & Milwaukee on I94 at the Rt83 exit. Would love to see your car up close!

[andrewb70]

I'm right between Madison & Milwaukee on I94 at the Rt83 exit. Would love to see your car up close!

Send me a PM. I have a buddy in Janesville. I am pretty excited about moving to WI.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

I scratched the fiberglass box idea. Instead, I decided that it would be simpler and easier to build a shelf behind the seat that would support the sub on the passenger side and allow for space for the amp on the driver's side.

Here is what I came up with. It isn't super pretty, but it will do the job. The trunk of my car was never meant to be a show piece, it is there to haul crap.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo212.jpg

The shelf is 1/2" MDF and is supported by the hump in the middle and some trimmed down 2x4s on the edges. The 2x4s will be attached to the trunk divider and the sub will be anchored to the bottom of the package tray. Should be pretty solid.

Here you can see where the amp will go.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo213.jpg

There will be ample space all around it for cooling and all the wires will come in from behind and underneath and should look pretty clean.

I even decided that I should make everything a little prettier and wrapped the sub in black felt and I will do the same for the shelf.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo214.jpg

Stay tuned for more, as I just placed an order with Don at Sound Deadener Showdown (http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com)

This is turning into sub/interior sound deadener redo...

Any comments and suggestions are welcome as always.

Andrew

[HWYSTR455]

I'm interested in the CVs and shaft solution. So you have to mount the pinion yoke before you can measure for the shaft?

On the sub. I've tried all kinds of boxes in the trunk, fired the subs into the backs of the seats, made side boxes, everything, and it never sounded as good as firing the sub(s) into the cabin. Subs firing into the trunk sounds muddy, muffled, whatever you want to call it, but in my opinion, is not a true solution.

When I bailed on the boxes, ran without subs for a while, missed having something, then mounted them in the deck, free-air. I did boxes around them once, is a little better than free-air, but not enough to go through the trouble. Once I reached the point they needed to be replaced, I pitched the boxes and went back to free-air.

Think I mentioned it before, but I use a piece of 1" thick hardwood, bolted to the rear deck, and then cut the speaker mounting holes into that. I struggled for a while butchering the sheet metal on the deck, but, I finally came to the realization, it's my car.

In that hardwood, you can cut any array of speakers you want that will physically fit, can fill the entire deck with drivers if you want, and the hardwood is not only stronger than the sheet metal ever was, but also helps resonate sound. Helps cut down on vibrations and noise too. ( I have a pair of 10s back there now, with a pair of 6x9s, a 12 fits but is a little tight )

It's not for everyone, but once you hear one done this way, you'll be convinced it's the best sounding way to do it. I'm getting ready to go through the driver, and am going to re-arrange the speakers in the back, will be a little while, but once I get there I'll make sure to post some good pics for all.

And nice work Andrew, as usual!

.

[andrewb70]

I'm interested in the CVs and shaft solution. So you have to mount the pinion yoke before you can measure for the shaft?

On the sub. I've tried all kinds of boxes in the trunk, fired the subs into the backs of the seats, made side boxes, everything, and it never sounded as good as firing the sub(s) into the cabin. Subs firing into the trunk sounds muddy, muffled, whatever you want to call it, but in my opinion, is not a true solution.

When I bailed on the boxes, ran without subs for a while, missed having something, then mounted them in the deck, free-air. I did boxes around them once, is a little better than free-air, but not enough to go through the trouble. Once I reached the point they needed to be replaced, I pitched the boxes and went back to free-air.

Think I mentioned it before, but I use a piece of 1" thick hardwood, bolted to the rear deck, and then cut the speaker mounting holes into that. I struggled for a while butchering the sheet metal on the deck, but, I finally came to the realization, it's my car.

In that hardwood, you can cut any array of speakers you want that will physically fit, can fill the entire deck with drivers if you want, and the hardwood is not only stronger than the sheet metal ever was, but also helps resonate sound. Helps cut down on vibrations and noise too. ( I have a pair of 10s back there now, with a pair of 6x9s, a 12 fits but is a little tight )

It's not for everyone, but once you hear one done this way, you'll be convinced it's the best sounding way to do it. I'm getting ready to go through the driver, and am going to re-arrange the speakers in the back, will be a little while, but once I get there I'll make sure to post some good pics for all.

And nice work Andrew, as usual!

.

I personally feel more comfortable measuring with the yoke installed in the transmission and the car at ride height. Give Frank a call. He had billet slip yoke made for various popular transmission and he now has pinion yokes as well, so you can build a true dual CV shaft. He can also install non-plunging CVs, which is what I would do if I had to do it over again.

I wrapped up the sub project and it looks and sound better than it was before.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo216.jpg

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Today I wrapped up the sub-woofer installation. It's really a pain to work so deep inside the trunk. Luckily I had the rear seat out and I could get at some of what I needed to do from inside the passenger compartment.

Here is a shot of the shelf after I wrapped it with some felt:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo215.jpg

All of the wiring for the amp goes under the shell and is tucked towards the back.

Here is the final product.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo216.jpg

I've also been playing around with making videos for those of you that prefer that sort of thing...

Sub-woofer install in 1970 Pontiac GTO - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6sdxAcQHTY)

All questions and comments are welcome as always.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Yesterday I tackled another project. Since I removed the subwoofer from under the rear package tray, I was not faced with having a hole in the rear package tray trim piece. I had some nice vinyl that I had purchased a while back, so I decided to cover the package tray with it. The end result wasn't perfect, but I think it turned out pretty well..

Follow along:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqWAn1Bg2p4

Andrew

[andrewb70]

As always, little projects tend to take on a life of their own. What started out as a simple subwoofer reconfiguration turned into a rear seat sound deadener project as well.

As I said before, I used products from www.sounddeadenershowdown.com. The methodology that they describe involves a two step process.

First, the metal is prepared using CLD tiles to deaden the metallic ringing that is common when raw steel is tapped or banged. The CLD tiles have an aluminum top and the bottom is a very sticky butyl material. The goal is to apply it to about 25-30% of the panel around it's center mass.

Second, a layer of closed cell foam is applied over the whole area and on top of that mass loaded vinyl is laid to block any sound from penetrating into the passenger compartment.

I applied the CLD tiles all over my package tray, the rear seat/trunk separator panel, and the area under the rear seat. Then I started at the top of the package tray and went all the way to the front of the rear seats with the foam and the MLV. The MLV is hard to work with as it does not mold well and it only bends in one direction. On the other hand, MLV can be bonded (almost welded) to itself using special vinyl adhesive. Using the adhesive I was able to form a solid sheet all the way from the top of the package tray and bond it solidly to the vinyl that was already there which stopped at the rear seat area.

Here is the finished product:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo217.jpg

Ideally, I would have also covered the side panels the same way, but I discovered that the foam and vinyl add thickness which creates fitment problems with all the trim panels. Ultimately I decided that this was as far as I was going to go for now.

First driving impression is that what I did definitely reduced the driveline noise that was penetrating the cabin. This made for much quieter driving experience when going down the highway.

Andrew

[GRIM64]

So I had the opportunity to go meet Andrew today. I've got a '69 GTO that's going through a very slow restoration and I wanted to pick Andrew's brain on what I should do next on my car. Basically, ask him what would he do differently if he could do it again.
I meet Andrew at his house and he shows me his '70 GTO... first thing that hits you is the blazing red color, Viper Red. It doesn't just hit you - it announces it's presence with authority - like a 2x4 across the face yelling at you "INCOMING". Well, he offers to take me for a ride and of course I jump at the chance.

Let me first say that I'm still alive and I'm going for retina re-attachment surgery next week.

Andrew's GTO has got a healthy rumble to it but nothing obnoxious and sits idling at 1000 rpm. We carve a couple of round-a-bouts then he turns onto the highway on-ramp. What happened next is something that I will NEVER forget (kind of like, where were you when President Kennedy was shot or the Challenger disaster).

OH


MY


GOD !

You guys with LS engines have been holding out on us unwashed, heathen masses that have only sipped from the well of the traditional big block motors. What I experienced was not a sip - far from it. It was not even a gulp... It was like being hit with a blast of water coming from a fire hose mere feet away.
Webster's dictionary does not have the words to describe the acceleration, the words have not been invented yet. Let me give it a try though... Brutal, raw, goose-bump raising, overwhelming, utterly shocked. Now take these words and put them in a magnifier and then raise them to the nth degree and then your getting into a similar area code but you still far short for a proper description.

After he let off the gas and jumped on the brakes my tunnel vision subsided and I first exclaimed "You've GOTTA be kidding me!" followed by a couple of explicatives then a glance at my arm that is covered in goose bumps. No kidding.

The immediate thought in my head was, "I have GOT to get me one of these".

I won't go into detail as I'm sure the statute of limitations might never run out on some of the stuff that he did with his GTO. It was a truly humbling experience that I'll never forget and will now strive to duplicate in my '69 GTO. LS motor - HERE I COME !!!!

Thanks again Andrew - you saved me from making a terrible mistake by not using an LS engine in my build.

[old66tiger]

Andrew, I am in the Madison are and I am starting my LS3 conversion soon. Are you in the WI area yet? I make it to Fond du Lac a bunch and i would like to meet up sometime to discuss your swap. PM me your number and let's talk soon. Bob

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk

[andrewb70]

Haters are going to hate...LOL

https://www.facebook.com/highperformancepontiac

Andrew

[pont3]

Haters are going to hate...LOL

https://www.facebook.com/highperformancepontiac

Andrew

Let them hate then, WHO cares? I absolutely LOVE the LS in my '72. No more leaks on my driveway or constantly changing inferior Chinese made engine parts. I DRIVE my car regularly and even take long trips in it. It gets fantastic mpgs and is dead reliable.

To each their own. You inspired me to take the plunge, and I'm SOOO glad I did. I have the latest in driveability in the body style I love most. Since GM is not going to make another GTO that looks like my '72, why not enjoy some of the advancements in technology with the body I love?

Thank you!!!!!

[andrewb70]

Let them hate then, WHO cares? I absolutely LOVE the LS in my '72. No more leaks on my driveway or constantly changing inferior Chinese made engine parts. I DRIVE my car regularly and even take long trips in it. It gets fantastic mpgs and is dead reliable.

To each their own. You inspired me to take the plunge, and I'm SOOO glad I did. I have the latest in driveability in the body style I love most. Since GM is not going to make another GTO that looks like my '72, why not enjoy some of the advancements in technology with the body I love?

Thank you!!!!!

Thank you for the kind words. I have always said that if you want nostalgia, stick with the Pontiac engine, but if you actually want to drive the car, the LS engine can't be beat.

Enjoy the ride!

Andrew

[jetallman]

I'm leaning way to the side of an LS in my 69 bird, will be doing my research on parts as soon as body is finished.

[andrewb70]

I am a big fan of the Hot Rod Garage show on the Motor Trend YouTube channel, and on the last episode, they did a LS3 swap into an A-body. Good stuff here, except they totally glossed over how they are managing the 4L65E electronics...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UGlYx_Cjjo

Andrew

[andrewb70]

It's been a while since I have updated this thread or even taken the GTO out for a spin. I've been having a lot of fun with the Cougar, but lately I have been thinking about how I can improve the GTO.

Hooker is about to release a lot of very well engineered components for A-body swaps and it is tempting to redo my swap to make things better. Holley has new mounts, headers, and crossmembers that are engineered to work together and work around the Holley oil pan. Currently my inner tie rods hit the Autokraft pan so it would be nice to fix that.

I would also like to have new stainless headers and a full stainless exhaust, which Hooker will offer. I realize that it seems kind of dumb to redo a car that runs and drives, but I am always trying to make things better.

Another thing that I have been thinking about is swapping over to a 4L80E. Seems kind of nuts, but I have never owned a performance car with an automatic and I would really enjoy seeing what I can do in terms of tuning the transmission. To make the auto trans possible, I would also swap the ECU to a Holley Dominator.

I am open to all inputs....

Andrew

[HWYSTR455]

I'm a big advocate of the 4L80E, sure many here are aware of that! I have to say it's one of the best upgrades I've ever done on my Lemans, hands down. I did an install thread on the swap, might find some useful info there.

One thing that I've heard is that the TCI '6-speed' 4L80E doesn't offer engine braking, so IMO, stay away from that one.

I ran a CompuShift controller, love the flexibility of it, but on this go-around, I will be doing the Holley Dominator ECU, since I plan to go multi-point. Should have it installed and provide feedback within 3 months or so.

.

[GRIM64]

About the only thing that would be a step up in performance in your GTO is a JATO bottle. I'm still grinning from that ride in your GTO.

[andrewb70]

So a friend of mine brought this to my attention...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3xBYWGYiVw

Apparently it has been getting some airtime on various car related shows...

Andrew

[360Rocket]

Thats way waterless cool! Congrats!

[andrewb70]

Thats way waterless cool! Congrats!

Thanks!

Andrew

[3 Chiefs]

Andrew was that your car in that ad? Looked like you drag racing at LS Fest.

[andrewb70]

Andrew was that your car in that ad? Looked like you drag racing at LS Fest.

Yes Sir. I think that was LS Fest 2013.....

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Anyone want a LT1 or LT4 in their GTO? How about a single turbo on their LSx swap?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOGUeYcMT7c

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Someone made a post recently on this forum lamenting the lack of young people at car shows and it inspired me to write this...

http://www.timelessmuscle.com/editorials/andrew-borodin-the-difference-between-waxers-and-greasers/

Andrew

[old66tiger]

Well written Andrew

Sent from my LGUS990 using Tapatalk

[andrewb70]

Bumping this thread up, for no other reason than it has been over 10 years since I did my LS swap.

Andrew

[3fastgtos]

Maybe not many people care about an ls in a GTO.

[andrewb70]

Maybe not many people care about an ls in a GTO.

I think you meant to say "a" "ls" GTO, not "an" "ls" GTO.....but carry on and go back to the rock from which you came from.

Andrew

[3fastgtos]

I said it exactly how I meant to, and I love it “under” my rock.

[andrewb70]

I said it exactly how I meant to, and I love it “under” my rock.

Maybe you can find some grammar lessons under that rock.

Andrew

[3fastgtos]

Maybe you can find some grammar lessons under that rock.

Andrew

If grammar is the only thing you’ve got over me then I’m fine with that.

[HWYSTR455]

Too many haters. Makes no sense to me. Nobody is forcing anyone to like or do anything, and regardless of what some think, it's still a form of art, no matter how you look at it.


.

[PurelyGTO68]

Cool build. Thanks for bringing this thread back to the top. I was not a member here during your build so I missed this thread. Fun reading.

My 68 GTO doesn't have it's original engine either. I think it's a pretty cool car anyway....

Love my LS2 GTO. That engine is original to the car. Have owned a few GTOs over the years and the 2005 is my favorite of the bunch.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[andrewb70]

Too many haters. Makes no sense to me. Nobody is forcing anyone to like or do anything, and regardless of what some think, it's still a form of art, no matter how you look at it.


.

Cool build. Thanks for bringing this thread back to the top. I was not a member here during your build so I missed this thread. Fun reading.

My 68 GTO doesn't have it's original engine either. I think it's a pretty cool car anyway....

Love my LS2 GTO. That engine is original to the car. Have owned a few GTOs over the years and the 2005 is my favorite of the bunch.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Thanks guys. I was just reading through the thread last night and realized how much good information it has. Hopefully some people will find it helpful.

Andrew

[Dragncar]

Once you put a ls in a old GTO your car is only cared about by chevy guys.
If you are a Pontiac guy and give the car the time of day you never were "really" a Pontiac guy to begin with.

[andrewb70]

Once you put a ls in a old GTO your car is only cared about by chevy guys.
If you are a Pontiac guy and give the car the time of day you never were "really" a Pontiac guy to begin with.

My self identity is not tied to a car brand...or engine brand.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

My, how time goes by so quickly! The GTO is currently in storage, waiting for our move to Kansas City. While it was being taken to the storage location, it was becoming pretty clear that there were serious issues with the hydraulic clutch release. So with the knowledge that it will have to eventually be driven to KC, I decided to upgrade the hydraulic throw out bearing (TOB) to the really nice Tilton series 6000 bearing.


https://i.hmjimg.com/images/2020/05/03/218.jpg


https://i.hmjimg.com/images/2020/05/03/219.jpg


This specific version is designed to work with early design transmissions, such as a Muncie, Saginaw, TKO, and Richmonds. Since I am still using the Richmond 6 speed, this fits the bill.


https://i.hmjimg.com/images/2020/05/03/220.jpg


https://i.hmjimg.com/images/2020/05/03/221.jpg


I particularly like the way the height of the bearing is adjusted. Instead of stacking shims against face of the bearing retainer, there is a threaded collar that is turned in order to achieve the proper distance between the face of the bearing and the clutch spring fingers.


https://i.hmjimg.com/images/2020/05/03/222.jpg


We did the work at my buddy Brian's shop (this is where the car is stored). Car buddies are the best people on the planet!


https://i.hmjimg.com/images/2020/05/03/223.jpg


I didn't get a lot of "in process" pictures, but I am sure you guys know the drill. LOL

I bought a about $100 worth of fittings and hoses from Earl's in anticipation of the job, since I knew that the new bearing had AN-4 hoses and my old bearing used AN-3 hoses. As it trend out, the only part that was needed was a new adapter to go on the end of the hardline. It's a 3/8x24 double flare to AN-4 adapter. The hoses were just the right length and everything fit perfectly.


https://i.hmjimg.com/images/2020/05/03/224.jpg


Here I am pretending to actually do some work. It sure is nice to have a lift available. I can't imagine doing this type of work again on my back.


https://i.hmjimg.com/images/2020/05/03/225.jpg


I hope all of you are staying healthy in these crazy times!

Andrew