1970 GTO Version 2.0

[andrewb70]

As many of you know and many don't, my 1970 GTO was done in October of 2002.

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/features/0304phr_1970_pontiac_gto/index.html

Since then it has lived a rather quiet life. Mostly in storage. Due to some issues in my personal life and a lack of interest, the GTO was a bit neglected over the last 4-5 years. Well that changed this past weekend. I finally sold my fuel injected 502 big block. The engine will have a happy home in a Chevelle, where it belongs.

Stay tuned for more details and future upgrades.

Andrew

[Silver Judge]

You did a great job on that '70 Andrew and I remember that some folks on this board were up in arms about the chevy power thing. I still think that your '70 is a mighty nicely done car ! I almost did some of the same modifications that you have done.

Are you thinking of going with a pontiac engine now ?

[ponjohn]

I clearly remember that project, it was ahead of the curve for sure.

[andrewb70]

Thank you for the kind words guys. No doubt many of you would like to see traditional Pontiac power under the hood. The goals of the project are to reduce the overall weight of the car, improve the weight distribution, increase fuel economy, retain low to mid 12 second drag strip performance, improve serviceability through the use of as many OEM parts as possible, improve overall dependability, make adjustments to the suspension to improve handling, lower the stance slightly, and have FUN!

Andrew

[Overkillphil]

Looks like a perfect candidate for that sweet aluminum Pontiac block...

[andrewb70]

Looks like a perfect candidate for that sweet aluminum Pontiac block...

Unfortunately that is way out of the budget :/

Andrew

[Stuckinda60s]

A 455 is lighter than a Big Block!!

Rich

[andrewb70]

A 455 is lighter than a Big Block!!

Rich

Not 300 pounds lighter.

Andrew

[boater bill]

A 455 w/ aluminum heads might be though!

With your performance and driveablity goals, are you going fuel injection or forced induction?

[ponjohn]

psssst.....LSx?

[andrewb70]

psssst.....LSx?

Yes Sir!

Andrew

[HWYSTR455]

Are LS9s available over the counter yet?

[andrewb70]

Are LS9s available over the counter yet?

Not yet. Its going to stay NA.

Andrew

[1972 Formula 400]

Looks great, should have went with a Pontiac power plant though:D

[andrewb70]

Looks great, should have went with a Pontiac power plant though:D

Yea yea....LOL

Today I dropped off the big block at its new home and picked up an L92 truck engine. The big ugly truck intake will need to go, as will the water pump and balancer. I also picked up a take out LS7 cam, LS7 valve springs with retainers. I will post pictures of the new engine tomorrow.

Andrew

[wrenchmen]

improve serviceability through the use of as many OEM parts as possible, improve overall dependability

Considering the quality of your GTO and your choice of components, that is a very interesting statement....especialy to someone like me who is currently in the begining stages of a restification.
With all the aftermarket components avalable, particuarily suspension and brake and from someone who has "been there, done that" is there any words of advice or thoughts you can give based on your experience?

[andrewb70]

Considering the quality of your GTO and your choice of components, that is a very interesting statement....especialy to someone like me who is currently in the begining stages of a restification.
With all the aftermarket components avalable, particuarily suspension and brake and from someone who has "been there, done that" is there any words of advice or thoughts you can give based on your experience?

When starting a project I think it is very important to have a goal in mind of what you envision your final build to be. How often will it be driven? Will it be raced? Drag? Road race? How often? All those things play an important role in determining what product to use on the car.

Take for instance the brakes. In retrospect I went way overboard. I wasn't realistic with myself about the use of the car and I made the brakes more complicated and more expensive than necessary. When I built the car it was very common to upgrade to the b-body spindles and custom upper control arms. This addressed the suspension geometry issues and allowed the use of some large OEM brakes. The b-body swap also has a bit of a dark side, with increased bump steer and a reduced turning radius due to the longer steering arm . In the last few years the ATS spindle has emerged as the best of both world solutions. It fixes the geometry issues without inducing other negative effects, and it allows the use of the c5/c6 brakes, that are relatively inexpensive and very well engineered. With the introduction of the C6 ZO6, you can now get an OEM quality 6 piston caliper with a 14" rotor. That is the way to go in my opinion if the car seem mostly street driving with an occasional romp on the road course or auto cross.

There are other systems, such as aftermarket EFI in comparison to the latest OEM hardware and software that GM uses to run their modern engines. The amount of effort that the OEMs spend on IDLE would easily surpass the combined engineering efforts of many, if not all aftermarket EFI companies, combined.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Here is a picture of the starting point for the engine. It is a L92 that is used in various GM SUVs. 6.2L in displacement.

Andrew

[Silver Judge]

Wow, a GM truck engine ?
I guess it is too late to suggest a Pontiac power plant ? Either way, this will be interesting !

[ponjohn]

Andrew- that is an iron block--correct?

Are you planning on boosting it?
What trans?

John

[HWYSTR455]

Andrewb70- I can say from first hand experience, the ATS spindle updgrade with the C5/6 brakes were the best thing I ever did, hands down the best handling and driving setup I've had to date.

And your 100% correct on the OEM statement regarding time spent on programing, THOUGH, with some of the new systems, you can get pretty darn close to the same drivability, enough so to where it's not a noticable difference. It does take time & patience getting there, and there are shops with extensive experience that can cut that time to a fraction. Also consider when you start doing power adders or getting away from the factory config (heads, cam, etc), your going to have to change the OE settings anyway.

I think it's great that your chosing an alternative path by going with an LS, that's what this hobby is all about, right? The way YOU want it.

[andrewb70]

Andrew- that is an iron block--correct?

Are you planning on boosting it?
What trans?

John

John,

The L92 is 6.2 liters in displacement and has an aluminum block. The heads are very similar in design to the LS 7 heads and flow over 300 cfm stock. This combo will NA and I plan on making 420-440rwhp. With the BBC the car was 3933 pounds. The goal is to drop 300 pounds off the nose.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Andrewb70- I can say from first hand experience, the ATS spindle updgrade with the C5/6 brakes were the best thing I ever did, hands down the best handling and driving setup I've had to date.

And your 100% correct on the OEM statement regarding time spent on programing, THOUGH, with some of the new systems, you can get pretty darn close to the same drivability, enough so to where it's not a noticable difference. It does take time & patience getting there, and there are shops with extensive experience that can cut that time to a fraction. Also consider when you start doing power adders or getting away from the factory config (heads, cam, etc), your going to have to change the OE settings anyway.

I think it's great that your chosing an alternative path by going with an LS, that's what this hobby is all about, right? They way YOU want it.

I hear what your saying about the various new EFI systems that are on the market. If I were to go much past the stock setup I would consider an aftermarket system, but this engine combo will be relatively mild.

Andrew

[taalltheway]

One stupid question: How can one have "a lack of interest" for several years in a car like that? Especially after you put in all that work?

[andrewb70]

One stupid question: How can one have "a lack of interest" for several years in a car like that? Especially after you put in all that work?

Great question. I worked on that car for a solid 4 years. I got a little tired of messing with it. I also like new projects. So I played around with some other junk. No I'm back to the GTO.

I'm keepin the Richmond 6 spd that was behind the BBC.

Andrew

[taalltheway]

If you ever get tired of the car again call me...i loved your car when i first read about it. The LSX-enginechoice is excellent and since the late Trans ams were equipped with them you could say they are also "Pontiac"-engines...similar power like most old bigblocks with much less weight and OEM-EFI...how will you keep the shakerscoop with the airinlet being at the front of the engine? I loved that scoop on your car...i think Yearone has come up with a solution for their "Bandit"-trans ams with LS7-engines..

[Thumpin455_GTO]

I am curious as to what the L92 price was, I have been looking at replacing the 454 in my 76 swb with one, mild cam, intake, headers, maybe keep the efi, maybe not. At least in my truck the truck intake could stay, provided I can get a cable operated TB..

If I can find an L92 cheap enough I would do the swap this summer. PM me if you dont want to say, and where you got it, they are rare up here in BFE.

[GREATGTO]

what wiper motor did you put on your gto andrew? I want to get rid of my original gto wiper motor and put something on it a little smaller like you have, it looks like a late 70's early 80's f body -g body motor?

[David Holmberg]

John,

This combo will NA and I plan on making 420-440rwhp.

Andrew

420-440 will be very easy with the 6.2.
Are going with a carb intake and an EFI elbow? If so 500 RWHP in a daily driver combo won't be a problem.

Should be an interesting build.

[andrewb70]

I am curious as to what the L92 price was, I have been looking at replacing the 454 in my 76 swb with one, mild cam, intake, headers, maybe keep the efi, maybe not. At least in my truck the truck intake could stay, provided I can get a cable operated TB..

If I can find an L92 cheap enough I would do the swap this summer. PM me if you dont want to say, and where you got it, they are rare up here in BFE.

I got the engine from a guy selling them on ls1tech.com:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=878694&highlight=

I paid $3500. There are issues with using a cable operated throttle body with the newer 58 tooth crank trigger ECUs. I talked to John at Speartech and he indicated that you must use the drive by wire throttle body. There is no reason to use the cable throttle body.

I am a little torn as to what I am going to use for the intake. I am leaning towards doing a setup similar to what Year One did on the new Bandit cars.

When I got home this afternoon I found some Edelbrock goodies waiting for me. Here are the engine mount plates:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo08.jpg

Judging by the engine cradle these mounting plates will put the bellhousing in very close proximity to where it was before. This is critical for me since I am not changing anything rear of the engine.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo07.jpg

The Edelbrock headers came with a complete gasket and bolt kit, but I am going to use the stock MLS exhaust gaskets and bolts. The stock gasket matches the headers well.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo06.jpg

The headers are gorgeous!!!

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo05.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo04.jpg

The L92s feature variable valve timing. Since I am going to swap cams I will need a non VVT front cover. The balancer will also be swapped over to a C6 Corvette unit.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo01.jpg

Shot down the intake port:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo02.jpg

Andrew

[andrewb70]

what wiper motor did you put on your gto andrew? I want to get rid of my original gto wiper motor and put something on it a little smaller like you have, it looks like a late 70's early 80's f body -g body motor?

The wiper motor kit is from Detroit Speed and Engineering.

Andrew

[Thumpin455_GTO]

A bit rich for me, the budget isnt quite that big. Through some research I found you can use the cable TB but you need to swap the 58 tooth trigger for the 24 tooth from an LS1. If the LS1 in my 98 Formy ever dies, the plan is one of these under the hood. I will keep lookin in junk yards for one, but a new one (like yours) is a much better deal IMHO, just cant swing it.

Even though I would rather see a traditional Pontiac go in, this is far better than a SBC or a BBC. I wont do it to my 70, but I do like these engines. Its tough to beat the power and economy they offer, and the drivability is nice too. I will however swap any of them I can get my hands on into my trucks.

[andrewb70]

Through some research I found you can use the cable TB but you need to swap the 58 tooth trigger for the 24 tooth from an LS1.

That is correct. There are a few other minor issues to consider such as the cam sensor in the front instead of in the rear, and the knock sensors being on the sides of the block instead of in the lifter valley. I just didn't want to dig into the short block.

Andrew

[Mr_GTO]

Sweet.

[andrewb70]

Parts are slowly starting to trickle in. I got the proper cam gear to use with the LS7 cam. I also got a take off C6 water pump.

For the sake of my sanity, I removed the lifter valley cover just to double check that this engine does not have Displacement on Demand. It does not.

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo09.jpg

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Received the Keisler aluminum bellhousing today. Nice piece.

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo10.jpg

Andrew

[wrenchmen]

When starting a project I think it is very important to have a goal in mind of what you envision your final build to be. How often will it be driven? Will it be raced? Drag? Road race? How often? All those things play an important role in determining what product to use on the car.

If I was to Realistically consider all of the above, all stock would be all that is needed for my Lemans...lol., But I want to make some improvements to its current braking, Handling and power. With all of the "trick" components that are avalable and there "drool" effect, I have to keep reminding myself of that!

As far as your Engine swap, Has anyone else attempted an install of The L92 into a similar musclecar?.....I cant believe there are headers avalable for an 08 engine into a 70 GTO!

Do you use a factory ECM or is something else avalable?

What are your plans for the fuel delivery system?

....my friend has a 37 ford pickup/ street rod that has an all aluminum LS6 engine, currently it runs rich, very rich. We found that there was approx. 85lbs. of fuel pressure when there should have been only 55lbs...there is only one fuel line running from the in-tank pump to the engine, no regulator or return line. We are currently trying to fix this properly....thats why I was asking about your fuel system plans.

Keep the pic's coming!

[andrewb70]

As far as your Engine swap, Has anyone else attempted an install of The L92 into a similar musclecar?.....I cant believe there are headers avalable for an 08 engine into a 70 GTO!

Do you use a factory ECM or is something else avalable?

What are your plans for the fuel delivery system?

....my friend has a 37 ford pickup/ street rod that has an all aluminum LS6 engine, currently it runs rich, very rich. We found that there was approx. 85lbs. of fuel pressure when there should have been only 55lbs...there is only one fuel line running from the in-tank pump to the engine, no regulator or return line. We are currently trying to fix this properly....thats why I was asking about your fuel system plans.

Keep the pic's coming!

There have been numerous Gen III/IV engine swaps into all kinds of A-bodies. It is a fairly well documented swap. I plan on using one of the new GM Performance harness and ECU packages. My GTO already has an EFI ready fuel system with an intake pump. I plan on installing a 2000 Corvette filter/regulator in the rear, by the tank. Simple deal. For your friend's 37 you definitely need to install a regulator and return line. Set it to 58psi.

Lots of goodies showed up today including the L76 intake manifold kit:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo11.jpg

Andrew

[Mr_GTO]

Awesome. Are you documenting the swap on your website?

[andrewb70]

Awesome. Are you documenting the swap on your website?

I don't have a personal website. I am documenting the swap on this, and a few other forums.

Today I took off the truck balancer and the front cover. This is what the VVT system looks like:

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo12.jpg

The VVT cam use a single bolt to attach the cam gear and VVT mechanism:

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo13.jpg

The LS7 cam uses the typical 3 bolt style cam gear. You just have to make sure to get the correct gear with the right pattern of bumps for the cam sensor. I got mine as a handy little kit from Lingenfelter.

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo14.jpg

Once the cam was installed I bolted on an LS2 from cover along with a C6 water pump and balancer. With the exception of the hollow stem valves, and of course the LS7 cam, this is pretty much an LS3 now.

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo15.jpg

I also installed the AutoKraft oilpan. I really wanted to use an OEM style cast pan, but no one seems to agree what pan will work best. So I went with something that is proven to fit and retains the oil filter in the stock location.

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo16.jpg

Tomorrow I will be installing some Patriot Gold dual springs and doing some minor detailing.

Andrew

[jimmy-ny]

Andy - Great car - been watching your posts on LS1's into A bodies for a few years now. Never went that path because the Custom S I ended up purchasing works so well with all original parts it seemed like a crime to take a well running car and mess it up. Have a 2k camaro w a MN6 and 17000 miles on it. Tempted at one point to part swap the power train into the Pontiac but nixed that idea after getting a great education here at PY.

[andrewb70]

..... but nixed that idea after getting a great education here at PY.

Thanks for the compliment. I think it was a compliment...LOL...Not sure what you meant by the above statement. <shrug>

More progress over the weekend. I finished installing the Patriot Gold dual springs and hardened pushrods. I am pretty sure I went overkill on the springs, but I figure if I don't like this LS7 cam, I can just stab another one in it without having to worry about the springs.

Next I wanted to check the alignment of the Keisler bellhousing. I took the engine off the stand and placed the bellhousing against the block. Tick, tick, tick, tick...it was rocking back and forth. No good. I inspected it and it looks like someone dropped the bellhousing after it was machined. It put a slight dent on the corner and didn't allow the bellhousing to sit flat against the block. Little work with the file and it was good to go. This is a perfect example of why parts should be mocked up before installing them in the car. I may not have noticed this if I was on my back, under the car, trying to install it.

Next I wanted to check the alignment. I first measured the flatness. Very impressive, at .001".

Next I wanted to check the runout. I installed the dial indicator so it would ride on the inside of the bearing retainer register. This is what centers the transmission in the bellhousing. I set the indicator to zero.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo17.jpg

Rotated the engine 90 degrees. Still zero. Good.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo18.jpg

Rotated another 90 degrees. .005". Not bad.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo19.jpg

Rotated another 90 degrees. .004". Great.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo20.jpg

So the most the needle moved was .005". Divide that by 2 and you get total runout of .0025". Well under the recommended .005". Other than the minor issue with the bellhousing, I am pretty impressed.

Next it was time to see how the input shaft engages the pilot bearing. I am using a stock LS7 pilot bearing. I am happy with the engagement.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo21.jpg

Then I wanted to install the clutch so that I can take some measurements for getting the right hydraulic throw out bearing. Everyone should have a nice clutch alignment took. This one is from Quarter Master and is way better than a plastic one.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo22.jpg

There you have it, clutch and bellshousing installed. I am using a stock LS7 clutch on an LS2 flywheel. Heavy, but it will drive great. The distance from the clutch fingers to the outside of the bellhousing was 3.25". I will elaborate on why that's important later.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo23.jpg

I used some high temp "cast aluminum" paint to add a little detail to the valve covers.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo24.jpg

Time to start working on the car and get it ready for the engine. I want to redo some of the wiring as well as some of the fuel lines in the engine compartment.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Today I got a few more pieces of the puzzle. I was exploring the Keisler website and I looked in the "clutch actuation" section. Their hydraulic kit seemed like exactly what I was looking for. I only got the partial kit that does not include the hydraulic throwout bearing. Keisler is in the market of selling Tremec transmissions, so the TOB is designed to mount on a TKO. I have a Richmond, so I will connect the dots from the MC. Looks like a quality piece and exactly what I need. The MC has a 3/4" bore and a travel of 1.5". That should make just about any hydraulic bearing puke its guts, so I will have to mock everything up and make sure that the bearing is not being over extended.

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo25.jpg

I also ordered a Quarter Master street throw out bearing.

http://www.racingclutches.com/product.phtml?p=53&cat_key=89

If anyone wants to convert the mechanical linkage to hydraulic, this setup should work great with a Muncie, T10, Saginaw, lots of transmissions.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Today I got some more parts for the swap. I got a starter, power steering pump, and a bunch of little parts to complete my accessory drive system. What I have here is basically the C5/C6 layout.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo26.jpg

I also received the GM Performance Parts harness and ECU package. Pretty good value when you consider that it is very complete. It comes with a big relay center and an auxiliary fuse panel that needs to be mounted somewhere. Its fairly ugly so I don't really know where I am going to put it yet.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

The benefits of being a bachelor and living alone include being able to have a bunch of car parts in the living room and not hearing "THE DISPOSAL IS CLOGGED!!!" LOL

Besides the engine swap I am doing some suspension mods. I already have some coilovers in the front. The springs in the front are 550 lb/inch. They were marginal with the big block. I think they will work very well with the L92, so for now I am not messing with them. In the rear I currently have some springs that I got way back in the day, from HO Racing.

Who remembers them? If you do, your old!!!

I wanted the ability to adjust the ride height in the rear and more importantly have the ability to properly set the corner weights once the car is done. There are all kinds of solutions to accomplish this, I chose a very nice product from Budzter:

https://www.budzter.com/index.html

Not cheap, but the quality is outstanding and it is a true bolt on. No hacking of the rear is required and its fully reversible. I like that. The spring is 9.5" tall, 175 lb/inch from the Coleman Racing catalog.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo27.jpg

Andrew

[andrewb70]

I got my Vette regulator/filter combo the other day. There are many ways to make it work in custom applications. I chose to go to the local hydraulic supply store and get some fittings. The compression fittings were about $12 bucks for the pair. Steel, made by Eaton. Dorman and autoparts stores can officially kiss my ass. The little tube in the picture was 16 bucks. Grrr....

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo28.jpg

Andrew

[andrewb70]

It seems that just when you think something will only take a short time, the bottom falls out. I got the fittings this morning and got under the car. It's a good thing the rear end was out, because I am not sure if I could have done this with the rear end installed. That also makes me worried that it might be hard to get to the filter for maintenance, but I will cross that bridge when the time comes.

So here is the final installation. It was a little challenging because I didn't have quite enough room. There were some existing lines that I wanted to reuse and this is the best layout that I could come up with.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo29.jpg

Andrew

[wrenchmen]

Looks like your making progress!...that filter/regulator is what solved the fuel psi. problem on my friends street rod...runs great now. Only he paid big bucks for it from an online street/perfromance site...could have got the same filter/reg from napa for just over 20.00!
Where is the 16.00 Tube going?...up at the engine?

[andrewb70]

Looks like your making progress!...that filter/regulator is what solved the fuel psi. problem on my friends street rod...runs great now. Only he paid big bucks for it from an online street/perfromance site...could have got the same filter/reg from napa for just over 20.00!
Where is the 16.00 Tube going?...up at the engine?

I was thinking of getting the car done in time for Year One. We'll see how it goes. I got that filer/regulator from rockauto.com. It's an AC Delco and I think it was about $40. The $16 piece got cut down to about 2 inches and its in the outlet of the pump. On the left in the picture. It goes into a 3/8 x 1/2 compression union. I already a 1/2" stainless hard line going to the engine bay.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

I also got the got the Quarter Master "street" hydraulic bearing today. Remember how I said in a previous post that the clutch fingers are 3.25" away from the face of the bellhousing? We this is where that dimension is critical. The bearing has to be shimmed so that it is .100"-.150" from the clutch fingers. The shims go between the bearing retainer and the bearing and move it closer to the clutch fingers. I have mine set with a .090" gap. Tighter than what is recommended, but I am comfortable with it. The gap is needed because as the clutch wears, the spring fingers will move back towards the bearing. If there is no gap, the spring fingers will start to press against the bearing and there is the potential for clutch slippage due to decreased spring pressure.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo30.jpg

Andrew

[andrewb70]

So tonight I tackled the installation of the Keisler clutch master kit. Overall I am pretty pleased with this setup. I had to clearance a small section of the mounting plate to clear the steering column, however that is no fault of the product. As I recall, my steering column is a hair over to the left. I did that so the steering shaft would clear the headers. The notch is minor as you can see in the picture:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo31.jpg

The rod from the MC to the pedal makes a straight shot and fits well. I did have to remove the little bracket that held my backup light switch, so I will have to figure out something else for that.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo32.jpg

Once everything was installed I wanted to test how far my throw out bearing would move with the full travel of the clutch pedal. This is important because moving the bearing past a certain point will cause it to leak and possibly get damaged. So I connected a long hard line to the MC and ran it to the outside of the car. Connected my Quarter Master release bearing, and bled the system.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo33.jpg

It turned out that the bearing moved about .610" with the full stroke of the clutch pedal. This is perfect considering that the max travel on this bearing is about .650". The net step will be to see how well the bearing releases the clutch. Tomorrow I will bolt everything together and mock it up outside the car. This seems like a lot of work, but it sure beats taking everything apart after the fact.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Today I wanted to finalize the clutch hydraulics and confirm that everything will work. So I bled the clutch. I know that there are numerous methods out there, as well as all kinds of tools. My favorite solo bleeding method is still the "clear bottle with a tube" method.

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo34.jpg

Remember that bleeding hydraulics is not about pressure. There is no need to pump the pedal as hard and fast as you can. The goal is to displace air and replace it with fluid. Gently moving fluid through the system does just that, without aerating the fluid.

Once the hydraulics were free of air I was able to press on the clutch pedal to see what was happening at the bearing. The nice thing about doing this outside of the car is that I am able to look through the clutch fork hole and see exactly what is happening inside the bellhousing. I discovered that the fittings on the side of the throw out bearing were touching the clutch pressure plate. The LS7 clutch spring fingers sit a good ways down when the pressure place is bolted to the flywheel. So the solution was to press the bearing off the piston and put some shims behind it. This way there is more space between the body of the bearing and the face of the bearing. Hard to imagine what I am talking about.

Here is the bearing at rest, with the shims already installed.

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo35.jpg

Here is the bearing at full release.

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo36.jpg

The pedal is firmer than I expected, but the release is super smooth. So much better than the mechanical bearing with the z-bar. I would recommend this mod to anyone, regardless of engine choice.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Today I worked on the rear end. I degreased it and gave it a rattle can make over. Along with the cosmetic touch up I installed new upper control arm bushings and finished up the installation of the weight jacks.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo37.jpg

If anyone else is using these weight jacks, I would highly recommend painting them. They are steel with a black oxide coating. I already saw signs of surface rust after sitting in the garage for only 2 weeks.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo38.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo39.jpg

Tomorrow the rear end will get plugged back in and I will start on the wiring. With any luck, the engine will be going in next weekend.

Andrew

[goquick]

I have to ask, why not a Pontiac engine? You car is nice, but do you absolutely don't like Pontiac engines for some reason?

[andrewb70]

I have to ask, why not a Pontiac engine? You car is nice, but do you absolutely don't like Pontiac engines for some reason?

It is my preference to have an engine that has:

An aluminum block and heads
Deep skirt block with 6 bolt main caps
Roller cam
Heads that flow over 300cfm unported
o-rings on every mating surface
Serpentine drive accessories
Composite intake manifold
EFI

The list of feature go on and on.

Andrew

[matrix]

Why didnt you use Keisler's release bearing? Just curious.

[andrewb70]

Why didnt you use Keisler's release bearing? Just curious.

The Keisler bearing is designed specifically for the TKO 500/600 transmission. It replaces the entire input shaft bearing retainer assembly. I am using the Richmond 6spd transmission so I needed something a little more universal.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

The rear end is back in the car and the spring adjusters work great. Here is what the spring looks like at the new ride height.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo40.jpg

The old ride height was 28" to the top of the wheel well opening. The new rise height is 26". This is as low as I am going to go. As you can see there is not much room between the axle tubes and the exhaust. The 2" drop makes a huge impact in terms of looks. I have tall, 28", tires and now they are tucked up inside the wheel well.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

It is amazing what difference 2" in ride height makes. The rear seems to sit so much lower now. I am sure part of this is due to the fact that I have tall tires and now they looked tucked inside the wheel well.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo41.jpg

Andrew

[andrewb70]

I have been working on getting the wiring sorted out. The GMPP harness has three huge connectors that go to the ECU. In order to fit them through the firewall I would need at least a 3" hole. There is already a 2" hole in the firewall so I wanted to see if I could somehow feed the harness through it. The only way to do that was to start feeding the harness from the inside. With some effort I was able to feed it through. However the huge relay center was not going to make it. So I cut the wires to the relay center. It's no big deal since I will most likely have to lengthen that harness anyway. I would like to mount the relay center on the radiator support so it will not be so visible.

I also fixed some wiring oddities that were done by a shop that did the wiring during the original build. Odd things, like having wires that went from the bulkhead connector fed through the firewall then back out through the firewall, and back to the backup switch. Who does that s**t?

Another thing that I will have to do is get a different pedal. The one that is included with the GMPP harness kit is just plain awful. It is big, and huge, and ugly, and pretty much looks like it's made for semi truck. I think a pedal from a Corvette or a Chevy Malibu might work much better. Maybe a quick trip to the dealership is in order. LOL

Andrew

[Mr_GTO]

Pedal from a late model GTO should work.

[andrewb70]

Pedal from a late model GTO should work.

I don't suppose you have a picture handy?

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Sometimes one has to wonder, "WHAT THE F**K WERE THESE PEOPLE THINKING?" GMPP did a very nice job coming out with a harness and ECU combo that was priced right, fits well, and is easy to hook up. Then you realize that the engineer who speced the gas pedal has never turned a wrench in his (or her) life. The pedal that they send with the harness kit is on the right:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo42.jpg

It is HUGE and looks like it belongs on a dump truck. I can't imagine that it would fit into any car or streetrod etc...

Thanks for Jeff Schwartz, I got an alternative. The pedal on the left is from a 2007 Monte Carlo SS.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo43.jpg

Nice and tidy, with an easy to mount flange. I was able to position it exactly where the old gas pedal was. I even used one of the original holes, drilled an extra hole, and was done.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo44.jpg

So with some luck, I hope to drop the engine in this weekend.

Andrew

[mzbk2l]

Cool! Can't wait to see the pics.

[andrewb70]

Not much to say, as a picture is worth a thousand words:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo45.jpg

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Today I finally got done with modifying the GMPP engine harness. There were a few things that I did not like about it and I also wanted to give it some custom touches. The thought crossed my mind to completely reloom the harness, but I decided against it. Once I got the harness all hooked up and routed, it was pretty obvious that most of the harness is not really visible. It tucks very nicely behind the engine. The most visible parts are the extremities. The little branches that go to the various sensors, throttle body, and injectors. So I addressed just those areas. Here you can see how I kept the main branch of the portion of the harness that tuns along the fuel rail. What I did reloom were all the little fuel injector sections. You can also see the fuel line. It is a smooth bore Teflon braided stainless line that I covered with the nylon loom material.

http://pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo47.jpg

Here you can see a section of the harness that had several branches going to the coolant temp sensor, alternator, crank sensor and MAF. It looked like this:

http://pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo48.jpg

I changed it to this:

http://pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo49.jpg

Not a huge difference, but a small detail.

I also routed the line from the coolant crossover tube. This tube can be routed to several places. The most popular is to run it to the radiator by the upper radiator hose. Others run a T in the upper radiator hose and routed there. On 5.3L Trailblazers the line runs to the large heater hose. So I drilled and tapped the water pump and ran a stainless hardline from the crossover tube to the water pump.

http://pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo46.jpg

Getting really close to firing it up!

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Look at all that room even with the radiator installed. I love the Corvette accessories. Plenty of room on the passenger side for a GT42R. :secret2:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo50.jpg

I would say 75% of the engine is behind the front axle centerline. With any luck this thing will have about a 50/50 weight distribution.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Here is a short video of the engine being fired up:

Video Link (http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/video01.wmv)

Please do Right click and Save Link As.

Sorry about the quality. It was made with a cell phone. LOL

Andrew

[David Holmberg]

Very nice Andrew.

I noticed that you've moved from IL to Ky, what part of the state?

[brianberes]

It sounds healthy.

Brian

[andrewb70]

Very nice Andrew.

I noticed that you've moved from IL to Ky, what part of the state?

I live in Bowling Green.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

While this is all true Tony, the downside is that I have to travel 500 miles to see my kids, instead of seeing them everyday. You win.

So I am down to all of the little details that can take a long time to get done. Basically I am down to "connecting the dots." I got a small tube that goes from the power steering reservoir to the power steering pump. That allowed me to install the power steering pulley and finalize the accessory drive with a belt. I really like the Katech belt tensioner. I had some belt throwing issues on the RX7 and I am sure that this will cure any potential issues.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo51.jpg

I also mounted the fuse and relay panel that came with the GMPP harness. Originally I thought I wanted to mount it on the radiator support. This would have made it less obvious. The downside to that is that all of the wires would need to be lengthened. I really didn't feel like doing that. Having it on the firewall gives me quick access to all of the fuses and the relays. There is also a "check engine" LED installed in the fuse panel. Having it on the firewall will allow me to quickly glance and see if there are any trouble codes. The number one reason for putting it on the firewall is that it allowed me to cover up some of the holes that were there from the coil and ignition box.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo52.jpg

I also installed and bled the new, .700" bore clutch MC. The Keisler kit came with a .750" bore but I wanted a softer pedal and less bearing travel. You can see the hardline going from the MC down along the frame rail. It then mates with the braided line coming off the throw out bearing.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo53.jpg

Speaking of MCs. I also changed the brake MC. This one is a 15/16" bore MC from a 1979 Malibu. While I had no issues with my S10 quick take up MC, I was a little concerned about the shallow pushrod dimple. This MC has a very deep pushrod hole as well as a little snap ring that keep the pushrod retained inside the MC.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo54.jpg

Tomorrow I need to order some radiator hose couplers from Jags That Run.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Since this was a truck engine there are a few things on it that are specific to being in a truck. The oil filler tube in the valve cover is one of those things, and the other is the dipstick. While both of these items are perfectly functional, they look a little out of place with the low, car style intake. Here is what I am talking about:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo55.jpg

The short filler tube is from a C6. You can see how much better it looks than the tall truck style filler. Same goes for the dipstick. Here you can see the C6 dipstick tube. (I am still waiting for the dipstick to arrive)

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo56.jpg

The total for the 3 items at the local dealership was just over $40. No doubt mail order would be less, but then you have to add shipping. If you are ordering a bunch of other parts it would make sense to include these small items.

A while back I also received this handy, dandy fitting adapter kit:

Metric fitting kit (http://www.iequus.com/product_info.php?product_id=6848)

I used the adapters to install my oil filter sender behind the intake manifold, as well as to install the water temperature sending unit into the passenger side head:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo57.jpg

Another company that has great products for adapting LSx engines into all kinds of cars is Jags That Run (http://www.jagsthatrun.com). JTR offers these simple aluminum tubes that allow you to mate up two radiator hoses of different diameters. This make making radiator hoses a breeze. Here is the adapter for the lower hose. It reduces the 1 3/4" lower radiator hose on my radiator, to the 1 1/2" hose on the thermostat housing of LSx engines:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo58.jpg

I got the hoses at O'Reilly's autoparts. The little 90 degree upper hose was PN 20267.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo59.jpg

The lower hose was PN 21064. It has the perfect bend that follows the frame and included an internal spring. Here is the end result after the hoses were trimmed and joined together by the coupler:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo60.jpg

Look for more updates this evening.

Andrew

[mzbk2l]

Lookin' great so far - keep 'em coming.

[andrewb70]

Lookin' great so far - keep 'em coming.

Thank you!

I spent all day in the garage today, but I am afraid that there wasn't really anything new to show you guys. I did a lot more of "connecting the dots." I found the wire under the dash that went back to the relay for my fuel pump. This was used by the Commander 950 to turn on the pump. The GMPP harness already had a relay for the fuel pump, but I really like taking power directly from the battery to run the fuel pump. So after consulting with a couple of folks I decided to just run two relays. The relay in the harness activates the relay in the back of the car. After hooking everything up it worked perfectly. When the ignition key is in the "Run" position the pump primes for about 5 seconds and then shuts off.

Since I got all of the coolant hoses hooked up, I went ahead and filled the system. I filled the radiator. Then I filled the block through the upper radiator hose. I fired it up and ran the engine for a while. The O2 sensors are not hooked up and as it warmed up, and went into closed loop, it started idling a little rough, but it did not die. So I let it idle and warm up a bit. The stock thermostat is probably around 205 and the ECU turns on the fans at 212. The lower radiator hose stayed relatively cool until the thermostat opened. Once that happened, I just topped off the radiator and hopefully that will do it. The fans kicked on at around 212 as they were supposed to. Nice thing about the GTO is that I already had a giant Be Cool radiator. I never had any issues with the 502 and I am sure it will cool this engine just fine. The RX7 had half the radiator, and almost no grill, and I didn't have any issues.

Now I need a little help from everyone. The GMPP harness instruction say that the tach signal is a low voltage 2 pulse square wave. It also said that some older tachs may require a pull up resistor in order to function properly. I hooked up the wire from the tack and sure enough it did not work. So, what the heck is a pull up resistor and how do I hook it up?

I am trying really hard to resist project "scope creep." So with some luck this thing will move under its own power next weekend. LS swap in less than 2 months, not bad, if I do say so myself.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

So today I did as this thread above indicated:

http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=894418&highlight=resistor+up+pull

I installed a 1K Ohm resistor between a switched power source and the tach signal wire:

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo61.jpg

The tach worked, but the needle was kind of jumpy below 1000 RPM. Any electronics experts have a suggestion?

Andrew

[andrewb70]

So after being a little ticked off this morning about the whole tachometer ordeal I decided to make some calls. I called my buddy John Parsons and he gave me a quick run down of Ohms Law. So I decided that instead of getting a collection of various resistors I would get a 10K Ohm potentiometer and see what works best. So I hooked up the potentiometer to the tach and set it to the 10K setting. Fired up the car and the tach seemed to work fine at low RPM. I then kept reducing the resistance until the tach stopped responding. The I zeroed in on the lowest setting where the tach responded smoothly. I then turned off the car and measured the resistance across the potentiometer. It rea 3.9K Ohms. So I gave myself some headroom and installed a 4.7K Ohm resistor. So far so good. The tach does seem to flutter ever so slightly at about 800 RPM, but there are no random fluctuations to zero. I think that will do it.

I also went to Napa and they had the Gates heat shrink hose clamps in stock. They only had a couple of sizes, but I was able to do the upper radiator hose:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo62.jpg

I have to say that the hose clamps work as advertised. I will order some extras from McMaster just to have them around.

I also finished bleeding the brakes, filled up the transmission with fluid, and tightened up the rear suspension bolts. Hopefully next weekend I can get it into the fabricator to have the exhaust finishes up.

Andrew

[mzbk2l]

I'd never seen the heat shrink hose clamps before; that's pretty cool.

Did you get the O2 sensors wired up yet? What else do you have to do before it moves?

[RR67GTO]

Not 300 pounds lighter.

Andrew Try to get an LS1 from a Firebird. Even though it a corporate engine they were used in many of beautiful, fast, Pontiac's. I'm toying with the idea of putting the one I have into a well used driver 68 bird I own.... Mike in Oregon

[andrewb70]

I'd never seen the heat shrink hose clamps before; that's pretty cool.

Did you get the O2 sensors wired up yet? What else do you have to do before it moves?

The O2 sensors are not installed yet. I am waiting for some piping to come in so that I can connect my existing exhaust with the Edelbrock headers. The O2 sensors will go in the pipe right after the headers. Besides the O2 sensors there is really nothing that is keeping me from moving the car under its own power. I may go around the block just for fun.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

The Big Brown truck showed up today with the hose clamps from McMaster Carr. I got the big clamps to do the 1.75" section of the lower radiator hose, as well as some smaller clamps to do the heater hose.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo63.jpg

In retrospect, I should have installed the little hose reducer a little further back in the heater hose so it would not be so visible, but oh well. It's done.

One thing that I learned while working on the RX7 is that the LSx engines are a little finicky to "burp." One trick that really helps is to fill the engine through the upper radiator hose. What this does is fill the block as much as possible before the engine is even started. After filling the engine through the upper hose, I fired it up and topped off the radiator. I don't think that cooling will be an issue at all with this engine. I have a huge Be Cool radiator and it took about 20 minutes for the engine to reach 210. Once the thermostat opened I topped off the radiator again. The fans kicked on at just over 210 (the ECU documentation said they are supposed to kick on at 212) and it only took about 10 seconds for the temp to drop enough for the fans to shut off. Driving around I don't think the fans will kick on at all.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

In a previous update I mentioned that I swapped out my brake master cylinder for another one. I did this mainly to resolve an issue with the push rod retention method. The MC that I am currently using has a nice deep pushrod hole as well as a clip on the tip of the pushrod that retains it inside the MC. Just because everything bolted up fine, doesn’t mean that this MC will work in my application. The pedal seemed to be very high and the pedal effort is rather high. So I decided to see what was really happening at the caliper. I went to my local hydraulic hose retailer and picked up an inexpensive pressure gauge. After installing the gauge in a bleeder screw in my caliper I had a friend step on the break pedal and to see what kind of pressure was being generated. Keep in mind that Wilwood rates their calipers at a maximum of 1200psi. From what I understand, past that point the caliper starts to deflect. So here is the result:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo64.jpg

With moderate pedal effort my friend was able to generate a fairly easy 800-1000psi at the caliper. By pushing a little harder I am sure that he was going past 1200psi. With all that being said, I think that this MC will work just fine. The pedal effort will be moderate and the braking will be excellent!

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Small correction. The brake MC is actually from a 1977 Malibu. I am using Raybestos PN MC39946.

Andrew

[Z Code 400]

As much as GM swapped engines around??? I think it makes little difference what's under the hood so long as the installation is professional and the performance is impressive.

Best of luck on your project, Andrew.....Robert

[andrewb70]

As much as GM swapped engines around??? I think it makes little difference what's under the hood so long as the installation is professional and the performance is impressive.

Best of luck on your project, Andrew.....Robert

Thank you Robert. I appreciate the kind words.

Andrew

[Z Code 400]

You have earned it, Andrew.....The quality of your workmanship is indeed impressive.

I remember how much hell I got when I helped a friend put a 572 crate BBC into a second generation Firebird. No matter what you called it, or whether you loved it or hated it, the car absolutely flew....It is a real rattler.

I even get hate mail for painting genuine Pontiac engines red, which has always been our competition engine color, dating back to our Flathead and Y-Block Fords. Sure, the Silver-Blue is the old stand-by factory color, but whatever happened to being different???

I am very old fashioned.....I like the old 4 speeds and carburetors, but I admire your ingenuity and 'Outside-the-Pontiac-Box' way of thinking.

Keep up the good work...Robert

[Z Code 400]

"With moderate pedal effort my friend was able to generate a fairly easy 800-1000psi at the caliper. By pushing a little harder I am sure that he was going past 1200psi. With all that being said, I think that this MC will work just fine. The pedal effort will be moderate and the braking will be excellent!!!!"...Andrew

Andrew,

Let me caution you about the use of galvanized fittings to conduct pressure tests on the brake system. These parts are full of imperfections and are not rated for much over 45 psi safely.

I have seen a number of those fittings fail on the shop compressed air system at a low 165-170 psi.

Best of luck and do be careful...Robert

[andrewb70]

Andrew,

Let me caution you about the use of galvanized fittings to conduct pressure tests on the brake system. These parts are full of imperfections and are not rated for much over 45 psi safely.

I have seen a number of those fittings fail on the shop compressed air system at a low 165-170 psi.

Best of luck and do be careful...Robert

Thanks for the tip Robert. I got all the parts from a local hydraulic supply house, and I just assumed it would be safe since they pieced it all together. I am done testing for now. If I do any more testing in the future I will replace what I have now with some quality steel fittings and a short piece of Teflon hydraulic hose.

Andrew

[Z Code 400]

Murphy's Law is quite prevalent in my shop, so I take no chances. Dad had a galvanized elbow fail on his D8 (Caterpillar) hydraulic system and upon inspection, it was cast very thin in one spot. It is common to see those fittings in some applications, but they always scare me.

Sacry when all that fluid comes flying back at you....:-)

Hope you had a productive weekend!!!...Robert

[andrewb70]

.....

Hope you had a productive weekend!!!...Robert

I am sorting out some driveline angle issues. Ever since I have owned the car, I've had a high speed vibration. This was true with the Pontiac 400/4 speed Muncie, and it was true with the BBC/Richmond 6 speed combo. I think I have it nailed down fairly well. Here is a website that has been very helpful in understanding what exactly I am dealing with:

http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_help/html/Diagnosis/Propshaft/Propshaft_Angles.htm

Andrew

[Z Code 400]

I am sorting out some driveline angle issues. Ever since I have owned the car, I've had a high speed vibration. This was true with the Pontiac 400/4 speed Muncie, and it was true with the BBC/Richmond 6 speed combo. I think I have it nailed down fairly well. Here is a website that has been very helpful in understanding what exactly I am dealing with:

http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_help/html/Diagnosis/Propshaft/Propshaft_Angles.htm

Andrew

I was about to say pinon angle.....:-)

I used to put a lot of 302 SBC's in Vegas and in order to reduce wheelhop and driveline vibration, not only did I raise the pivot points on the upper control arm mounting points, but I made my own adjuastble control arms from Geo Storm rear wishbones. This allowed me to set the pinon angle anywhere I wanted with a few turns of a wrench.

I also built my own tubular crossmembers for the T-50 5-speed gearboxes out of chrome moly aircraft tubing and swapped the front and rear suspension over to 5-lug. Nothing as trick as what you are doing, of course, but they would easily run deep into the 12.00's with very basic parts.

One of the things we found common to the the Chevrolet Vega (and something no one else ever addressed) was the engine centerline didn't line up with the centerline of the axle, so we made our own motor mounts to correct this. The driveline is much less forgiving of lateral misalignment in terms of vibration.

Sounds like you have the problem on the run. I especially like the creative use of weight jacks...something you don't see on too many street cars.

Keep up the good work...Robert

[andrewb70]

Robert,

Neat trick with the Geo Storm control arms. I am using Edelbrock adjustable upper control arms which make changing the pinion angle a snap.

Big day today. After a rather dismal, windy day yesterday, the weather today was just amazing. I needed a little inspiration so I decided that it was time for the GTO to move under its own power. I so installed a seat, put on some wheels, cleared out the tools, and pulled it out of the garage.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo65.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo66.jpg

Of course I couldn't resist. So I went around the block. The clutch is silky smooth. Converting from the old Z-bar to the hydraulic release was definitely worth it. The clutch actuation is just like on a modern car. Super smooth. I still don't have exhaust so the drive was short. The brakes felt solid so the MC is working well. I also noticed some noises which I think are the result of my messing around with driveline angles. I raised the back of my transmission to get the angles perfect, but now the u-joint is grazing the floor. More on driveline angles later.

Notice how much higher the front sits. I bet it's up a minimum of 2". I can't wait to get the thing scaled. I am also contemplating getting a fiberglass hood and ditching the shaker. The stock hood is probably 40-50 lbs, plus another 10 lbs for the shaker. A Glasstek fiberglass hood is probably about 25 lbs. I am open to opinions.

Andrew

[Z Code 400]

Looks great, Andrew.....You are making good time on that swap too....Robert

[Z Code 400]

When starting a project I think it is very important to have a goal in mind of what you envision your final build to be. How often will it be driven? Will it be raced? Drag? Road race? How often? All those things play an important role in determining what product to use on the car....Andrew

I am a caveman by modern standards. One of my very first memories of a 'Hot Rod' was a 1964-1/2 Ford Galaxie lightweight. My buddy in high school had a 1966 Fairlaine 390 GT with manual steering, 4 speed and no A/C and these were the cars I ran around in growing up....Later in life, I played around with some exoctics....Porsche 911's...Lamborghini Miuras....These too were spartan without accessories....Hot Rods...

To me....a true hot rod is 100% business....No accessories...stick shift and rather primitive in nature...Spartan if you will....and I drive mine in 100° weather, because it just seems natural to me that hot rods are like that....But I freeze to death at anything under 70° outside.

They are 'tough guys' cars....:-)

I do enjoy taking the family out in the MBZ with the A/C on high and I love to see the work that Andrew is doing because he is showing the true spirit of the hot rodder. When people take him to task for swapping engines, I think back to how people reacted to my Dad's use of the Cadillac OHV V8 in 34 Fords back in the 1950's....but no one could beat him either.

I am probably too tight to invest in the kind of project that Andrew is doing, because we always had a really tight budget, but I certainly admire his workmanship and the way he blends the old and new technology in such a fluid fashion.

Keep the photos coming, Andrew.....:-)

[andrewb70]

This is an update for the techno geeks. If you like looking at pretty pictures, stop reading now, and move on. If being diligent about every little technical detail of your car is something that you enjoy doing, than please read on.

Ever since I have owned my car, all 23 years, I have had some sort of vibration in the driveline at speeds about 70 MPH. Most of the equipment on my car has changed numerous times. The only constant being the ride height. In recent weeks I have really been studying what actually happens with these cars when they are lowered. I give a lot of credit to Troy, I forget his user name here. LOL He and I have exchanged some messages back and forth and he has really helped me to understand what it will take to make my car smooth. This is a thread that he started on Chevelles.com:

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213271

There is also another great website that I used:

http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_help/html/Diagnosis/Propshaft/Propshaft_Angles.htm

This is by far the best website for explaining and measuring driveline angles.

The problem with GM A-bodies is that as the cars are lowered in the rear and front working angle increases dramatically. While it is possible to match the the rear working angle to the front working angle with adjustable upper control arms in the rear, this still does not address the problem of just having too much working angle.

I have no doubt that I will get 10 different opinion on this post. There seems to be a lot of conflicting information when it comes to driveline angles. I feel that the information in the above website is the most accurate that I have seen to date.

For the sake of this discussion I will always refer to something pointing UP when it is pointing from the back to the front of the car. Like this:

[front] \ [rear] = UP

[front] / [rear] = DOWN

I made a spacer which raised the back of the transmission about 1/2". My final readings were as follows:

Transmission: 2.5* UP
Driveshaft: .3* UP
Pinion: 2* DOWN

Front working angle: 2.5 - 0.3 = 2.2*
Rear working angle: 2 + 0.3 = 2.3*

I ran the car on jackstands and took it up to about 4000 RPM in 6th gear, which is over 5000RPM driveshaft speed. It seemed very smooth. Much more so than at other setting. The ultimate test will be how the car feels at speed.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Today I got the notice of approval from Grundy Insurance. On Monday I will go get the car registered and it will be legal to drive on the street. I also ordered a new 3" to 3" Dr. Gas x-pipe. This will just make the exhaust work a little simpler and cleaner. That should be here on Monday.

My car is not orange..LOL

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo67.jpg

Andrew

[Z Code 400]

Andrew,

What do you think you have invested in this swap so far???? The workmanship looks fantastic....Robert

[andrewb70]

Andrew,

What do you think you have invested in this swap so far???? The workmanship looks fantastic....Robert

7-8K, maybe a little more.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

I was going through some old paperwork this afternoon and I found my old corner scale sheet. Here are the numbers with driver:

[Front Left]-------------------------[Front Right]
1218----------------------------------1153



[Rear Left]---------------------------[Rear Right]
929------------------------------------884

Total Weight = 4184

56.7% front
43.4% rear

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Today I got the exhaust buttoned up. A new Dr.Gas x-pipe was installed and connected the headers to the mufflers. The car is very quiet. Almost too quiet. I has a nice deep tone. It is a hair louder than a new ZO6 Corvette. I got the wideband hooked up as well and as suspected the car was a little rich. Once I drove it a little the ECU started trimming the A/F ratio and now it is very close. I may not have to get it tuned at all. We'll see how the WOT A/F ratio is on the dyno.

I also weighed the car on the new scales at Beech Bend. I had 1/3 of a tank of gas, no hood, no passenger seat, and I was in the car. I think I am about 275.

Anyone care to guess what the car weighed?

Andrew

[chief455]

Anyone care to guess what the car weighed?
3870
54% front
46% rear

[andrewb70]

3870
54% front
46% rear

With me in it, no hood, no passenger seat, 1/3 tank of gas, it was 3828.

3823
minus 275 for my fat ass
add 50 for hood
add 25 for seat

3623

So it looks like the car lost a little under 300 pounds from the swap. Not bad. It will be really interesting to get the corner scale data.

Andrew

[mzbk2l]

Today I got the exhaust buttoned up. A new Dr.Gas x-pipe was installed and connected the headers to the mufflers. The car is very quiet. Almost too quiet. I has a nice deep tone. It is a hair louder than a new ZO6 Corvette. I got the wideband hooked up as well and as suspected the car was a little rich. Once I drove it a little the ECU started trimming the A/F ratio and now it is very close. I may not have to get it tuned at all. We'll see how the WOT A/F ratio is on the dyno.

Sounds good! What's next?

[andrewb70]

Sounds good! What's next?

Right now I am waiting for a replacement alternator. I got a rebuilt unit from Advanced Auto, online, and it went bad after one day of driving. That's what I get for not spending the extra money for a new one. The replacement will be here next Wednesday.

In the meantime I am going to mess around with the front coilovers and see if I can bring the nose down. I am also going to look into why my front shocks are leaking. They may have to be sent in for a rebuild. Hopefully by the end of next week I will be able to take my "malibu" (Oh the wit on goquick) to the chassis dyno.

Andrew

[Z Code 400]

Very nice work, Andrew....Impressive.

I really like the way you work things out and improve upon the original design. The lighter, more efficient engine is a smart move, regardless of the brand name.

If I had the means and time, I would put a carbureted LT5 in my Firebird and retain the functional ram air hood/system...Robert

[andrewb70]

Very nice work, Andrew....Impressive.

I really like the way you work things out and improve upon the original design. The lighter, more efficient engine is a smart move, regardless of the brand name.

If I had the means and time, I would put a carbureted LT5 in my Firebird and retain the functional ram air hood/system...Robert

Thanks again for the kind words Robert.

This morning I took the GMAT test and my brain was sizzled.

I got a replacement alternator in the mail today. I have to admit that the partsamerica.com exchange system works quickly and effortlessly. I just hope this alternator will last more than a few days. After installing it I drove around town and put about 50 miles on the car. The alternator seems fine and the car runs strong. I got on it a few times and it certainly feels as strong as the big block did, although the lack of torque is noticeable in second gear. I used to be able to break the tires loose from a roll in second. No more. That's not surprising and I am sure that the drag strip times will not be disappointing. This engine pulls like a freight train above 3000 RPM.

I also noticed that it is running fairly rich at WOT. My wideband was showing a steady 11.9:1. That is not surprising since I am using the LS7 tune up. Once the engine is broken in some more I will take it to my local tuner and tweak a little bit. There is no black smoke and no drivability issues at all. I should pull a plug.

On the highway there is still a little vibration above 80MPH. Before doing anything drastic I am going to double check the wheels and tires as well as the driveshaft. Since the car sat for a while it is entirely possible that the tires have developed some flat spots and that will certainly be felt at high speed.

Andrew

[Z Code 400]

Andrew,

One of my friend's has a running engine, just like yours. It is a cast-iron block with aluminum heads and it came out of a truck, but I don't know what the displacement is. He told me it was replaced because of lifter noise. I might take it home and tear it down just to see what it looks like inside...Robert

[Z Code 400]

I remember that engine having two knock sensors in the aluminum valley pan, so it is a bit different from yours....Not sure what difference that makes.

I'm impressed with your project and the engine/gearbox is an intriguing combination...nice mixing of the old and new.

I have a few questions...Did you have to relocate your steering shaft for the new engine??? Did the headers fit without modification??? This has got me thinking.

I have seen carbureted/distributed LS here locally. Ideally, I would like to use a carb or a TBI setup and retain the functional ram air and conventional air cleaner, yet use the distributorless ignition system and knock sensors from the original engine management system.

I like the weight reduction possible with the newer engine….and its super-cool looking too…Robert

[andrewb70]

Robert,

The truck engines with the iron blocks came in 4.8L, 5.3L, or 6.0L displacement. The displacement is cast into the rear of the block, although some 4.8L engines were labeled 5.3L. The 5.3L and the 4.8L engines shared the same block but the 4.8L had a shorter stroke. I have an new MSD 6010 box that will allow you to run a carb and keep the electronic ignition. Send me a PM if you are interested in it.

Tonight I went to Beech Bend for their Saturday night test and tune. With the hood back on, passenger seat installed, half tank of gas, race weight was 3941 with me in it. I was running the same Nitto 555s that were installed back in 2002. Needless to say, they are a little hard. The temperature was about 85 degrees and very humid. After a few crusty passes, I managed to click off my best pass for the night.

60' 2.1
12.78 @ 111 MPH


I am pretty happy.

Andrew

[David Holmberg]

Very nice Andrew. For a road car with hard tires that was really moving.

[Z Code 400]

Thanks, Andrew.....

I would still have a lot of logistics to work out if I was to do that swap. My buddy will donate the engine to me if I want it. We trade all the time, so getting the motor would be no big deal. I would have to work out clutch linkage, gearbox, headers, steering shaft, etc., and I wouldn't be in a big hurry to do the swap.

I also saw an article where some guy was drilling the crank with a hand drill to use a distributor. That really looked like a poor idea to me. Keeping the DIS and Coil on Plug setup would be much better, IMHO.

I am giving the idea some thought, but I am not 100% sold on doing the swap just yet. I would have a bunch of things to sort out on paper before I commit to it, but your installation and light weight approach appeals to me. I would love to take some weight off the Firebird's front end like you did.

Ideally, I would want an engine driven fan, a carburetor (Q-Jet would be tough on the current aftermarket LS1 intakes to be sure) Question though...Can the knock sensors be retained with that MSD system??? I would think they would be critical with the engine's high SCR. Comments???

[Z Code 400]

Andrew,

My buddy thinks this is a 5.3 litre, but I would have to look at the block to be sure. That would be the modest 320 HP/340 lb/ft TQ version I believe, but it would open up the the basic configuration for a more aggressive engine at a later date.

I do like the 9.50:1 SCR of the LM7 though....at least for a carbureted application...Plus, the complete engine is free.

I looked at a first generation Camaro website where they installed a LS1 with the cast oil pan and iron manifolds with no modifications, so I don't think my steering shaft would be an issue in my second generation car.

I know there are some similarities between your GTO and the Firebird, but what exactly can I use from your swap???

I found a steel bell housing for the LS1 with a mechanical clutch setup (since I would not want to move my floor hump back) I would stick with the Muncie.

I really like the EFI, but want to retain the ram air system. Besides, the engine has no intake, so I would have to scare everything up from scratch and C4 stuff is very pricey these days...:-) Since my car is a factory non-A/C car, everything is even more simple when it comes to swapping the motor.

Now, if I could just find a Q-Jet pattern LS1 intake and keep the factory air cleaner.....or, adpat the EFI to accept the functional ram air hood....Robert

[Z Code 400]

Andrew,

Looked at a LM7 in a truck this morning. The entire serpentine setup will work in my car, as the A/C is on a separate belt....Although the alternator mount looks kinda high for a second generation hoodline, but I can get all this truck stuff for free. It even has a belt drive water pump and fan.

Question: How much of the engine management can I keep if I switch to a carb??? Can you retain coil on plug and knock sensor capability???

It would be best to keep the EFI and adapt it to fit the 1975 ram air hood...Robert

[andrewb70]

Robert,

If you were to go with a carburetor there are no manifold options, to my knowledge, that have a q-jet flange. Edelbrock offer both a single and a dual plane intake. GM Performance parts has a single plane intake available.

The MSD 6010 ignition box is not "active." It does not use any feedback from the knock sensors to retard the timing. It comes with 6 pre-programmed curves and it is also laptop programmable so you can set your own curve based on RPM and MAP.

If you already have a Muncie and don't want to move the shifter or change the length of the driveshaft, it will be critical for the bellhousing to be in the same location as before. The Edelbrock adapter plates will keep the bellhousing in the same location when used in conjunction with Chevrolet frame stands and motor mounts. You will also need to fabricate a bracket on the bellhousing for the z-bar pivot ball.

The stock truck pan is way too deep and hangs down below the crossmember too far. Your best bet is to use the Autokraft pan or modify an F-body ban. The A/C compressor will not fit in the stock truck location when used with the Edelbrock adapters. So unless you want to slide the engine forward, which I don't like doing, you will have to move the A/C compressor. There is a company that makes a nice bracket to mount a Sanden compressor, up high on the passenger side:

http://www.kwikperf.com/lsx_ac.html

Andrew

[andrewb70]

I just had it chassis dynoed today. Anyone making guesses?

Andrew

[Z Code 400]

Andrew,

Thanks for that information. Since I get most of this tuff given to me, I thought I would just start collecting parts and take my time with it. My car has no A/C (I won't buy them with it as I hate the way it looks underhood) so I don't have to be concerned with the compressor.

As far as your dyno results, I would think around 370 HP and 415 lbs/ft of TQ (flywheel) as a guess...Robert

[andrewb70]

It made 418/389, running pig rich. I didn't bother getting it tuned right now because the shaker needs to be finished up.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Being around car projects for a long time I can tell you that every build has a few dirty little secrets. Some have more than a few. My project is no different. When I got the car aligned the most caster that we could get was zero degrees. This might be due to frame sag, or who knows what, but thats how it was. This doesn't hurt the handling, per say, but it makes for a less than idea driving car. Without any caster the steering wheel doesn't snap back to center after making a turn. So you actually have to steer it out of a corner. Not the most ideal situation. So I called Mark at SC&C (http://www.scandc.com/) and he convinced me that his adjustable upper control arms are the way to go. I was going to get them at some point later because I want to swap to the AFX spindles, but not seemed like the perfect time.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo68.jpg

The SPC control arms will allow me to dial in more caster while not increasing negative camber, and they will work with the AFX spindles.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo69.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo70.jpg

When taking everything apart I noticed that my QA1 shocks were leaking and pretty much not working. This is most likely due to the fact that the car sat for a long time. So a new set is on the way and will be here tomorrow. I will send the old ones to get rebuilt and it will be good to have a spare set, just in case.

I am in a bit of a rush because I want to take the car on a road trip to Chicago on Saturday...

Andrew

[Z Code 400]

It made 418/389, running pig rich. I didn't bother getting it tuned right now because the shaker needs to be finished up.

Andrew

That's impressive, Andrew, although I expected the see more TQ than HP. How's the idle sound???...Robert

[Z Code 400]

Andrew,

Those look like race-style bushings (Del-a-Lum) or something to that effect. What kind of ride can you expect from them???

[andrewb70]

Andrew,

Those look like race-style bushings (Del-a-Lum) or something to that effect. What kind of ride can you expect from them???

I don't know where the idea that solid bushings give a hard ride started. My car rides very nice, without a lot of road noise. The main source of noise in my car is the whine of the Richmond transmission.

Yesterday I got the new coilover kit and finished installing the control arms. I used the springs that came with the kit, which were 450 lb/in. In retrospect I should have stuck with the 550s. Oh well.

Here is the final ride height. It's pretty low, probably too low, but it look really good. I am leaving it for now.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo71.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo72.jpg

This morning I got the car aligned. The show here in town dabbles in circle track racing so they have a very nice Hunter laser alignment rack. We aligned the car with me in it with the following final specs:

Left -.5 camber +5.5 caster
Right -.5 camber +6.0 caster

zero toe

Now here is the cool part. The initial alignment was done with the control arm cross shafts right up against the frame. So with the street alignment settings in place, we did a second alignment using shims. With the shims in place I now have an auto cross alignment with the following specs:

Left -1.5 camber +6.0 caster
Right -1.5 camber +6.5 caster

slight toe out

So now when I got to an event I can take a wrench and in about 5 minutes install my shims for a more aggressive alignment. When I am done, just take them out and drive home on the street alignment.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

That's impressive, Andrew, although I expected the see more TQ than HP. How's the idle sound???...Robert

These engines tend to make more peak HP than TQ. I guess that's from the big bore small stroke combination. I am not sure.

The idle is very smooth. Almost too smooth. Sounds like a new ZO6. Just a little louder.

Andrew

[Z Code 400]

Very nice, Andrew.....

My buddy has an alignment shop in Visalia, CA. I have them set my Firebird up to my specifications:

Left Camber 0.0°

Right Camber 0.0°

Left Caster 4.0°

Right Caster 4.0°

Toe In 1/16" to 1/8"

Negative camber is better for handling, but I think tire wear is better at 0° on both sides.

You are sharp to have the adjustments done with the driver in the vehicle. I also have the tank full of fuel and the tire pressures set at 40 psi when the wlignment is performed. I use Moog Offset Upper Control Arm Shafts and stock control arms.

My front end has been lowered by cutting the springs 1.5" from stock. The front of the car is slightly lower than the rear...Robert

[Z Code 400]

These engines tend to make more peak HP than TQ. I guess that's from the big bore small stroke combination. I am not sure.

The idle is very smooth. Almost too smooth. Sounds like a new ZO6. Just a little louder.

Andrew

I like my idle to sound like popcorn popping.....:-)

[andrewb70]

Better shot of the stance.

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo73.jpg

Andrew

[andrewb70]

On Saturday morning I headed out towards Chicago. My journey started out on a beautiful, sunny morning. The temperature in Bowling Green was in the low 70s at 7:30am and it looked like the perfect day for a road trip. I was making good time but that quickly changed when I got to about 50 miles south of Indianapolis. The forecast called for thunderstorms but I had no idea what as about to hit. Keep in mind that up until this point my car has never been driven in the rain.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo74.jpg

Notice the large hole in my hood, later to be filled again by my shaker. i really wasn't worried about the engine getting wet, because I have hosed down the LS6 in my RX7 many times and it has never complained. All of the connectors are water tight so a little water on the intake won't hurt.

In this next picture the rain line can actually be seen. See how the pavement in front of me is dry, but just up ahead the semi going in the other direction has the giant rooster tail of water behind it. The sky was about to open up on me.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo75.jpg

The rain was unbelievable. With the wind gusting, it was actually raining sideways.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo76.jpg

Then as if it wasn't raining hard enough, it started coming down in sheets.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo77.jpg

More dirty little secrets about my car. It seems that it is not entirely water tight. After about 20 minutes of driving in the rain I noticed that both the driver's and passenger side carpet was soaking wet. I am not talking about just damp, but sopping wet. I suspected that the water was coming down the cowl and getting inside through the kick panel area. A few days ago I discovered that to be exactly the case. No names will get mentioned, but the passenger side cowl vent panel was installed by the same shop that installed my Vintage Air system. The panel where the hoses come through wasn't sealed against the body at all. Like I said before, the reputation of the shop doesn't mean s**t. It all boils down to that guy, making 15 bucks an hour, wrenching on the car.

In about a week I am going to drive the car from Chicago to Colorado for my (cough....cough...) 20th high school reunion.

Andrew

[mzbk2l]

That must have been an interesting road trip! :)


Thanks for the update. Keep 'em coming; this is one of my favorite threads (along with the "Blown GTO Updates.")

[blown 68]

cool write up andrew, you have a knack for the finer points, i can relate!!

too bad about the wet carpet deal, that sucks. i know the pain of having someone else do a portion of a project, and that's one of the only portions that have issues....... i have driven my blower car many many miles in the rain, glad to say, no inside leaks, but man, cleaning all that aluminum back up under my 'half hoods' is a pain. people really give me second looks driving my car in the pouring down rain here, cracks me up. i live two blocks from a very rude co-op market, so i make sure to drive that way everytime i go out. i get lots of shaking heads, looks of disgust, you name it. builds character i guess....



keep it up, love your attention to detail, much kudos to you my friend..........


davey

[andrewb70]

cool write up andrew, you have a knack for the finer points, i can relate!!........

.........keep it up, love your attention to detail, much kudos to you my friend..........

davey

Thank Davey.

I have been reading your thread and following your rear main seal saga. What a pain, but I am glad it is fixed. I am driving to Colorado next week and I will stop at my friends house in Lincoln, NE. He is the one that did the body and paint on my car. Hopefully we can get the water issue resolved at that time. When are you taking your car to the track?

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Yesterday and today were two very exciting days. Monday morning I showed by to Schwartz Extreme Performance (http://www.schwartzperformance.com/) in Crystal Lake, Illinois. Jeff Schwartz and his crew were waiting for me so they can begin to adapt my shaker scoop to the new engine. One of Jeff's fabricators, Ken, was responsible for the project.

After looking things over and mocking up my old shaker base it as decided that a whole new base would need to be made. So Ken rolled a new base and bottom.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo78.JPG

The only part of my old base that was reused was the upper lip that attached to the shaker top.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo79.JPG

Ken also fabricated another piece that was welded to the inside of the base and held the air filter element. I picked this filter element because it is as large as the base will allow. The filter is also rather thick which gives it more area for better flow. It also happened to be in stock at the local AutoZone, which means I can get a replacement just about anywhere.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo80.JPG

Another one of Jeff's fabricators, Kyle, helped out with the TIG welding of the 4" pipe that connected the base and the throttle body.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo81.JPG

Today everything was starting to take shape. The MAF was mounted inside the pipe towards the the top, just after the rubber coupler.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo82.JPG

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo83.JPG

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo84.JPG

Tomorrow morning I am heading out to Colorado. I will be stopping in Lincoln, NE to visit my friend Brian. Brian did the body and paint on my GTO. We will smooth out all the welds on the base and paint everything a semi-gloss black. Thanks again to the crew at Schwartz Extreme Performance for a job well done!

Andrew

[Hurst65]

I like it!!

Will the base and the bottom be sealed with some sort of seam sealer or will it be welded completely??

[Z Code 400]

Andrew,

Very nicely done....a fine mix of old and new, with the very best of modern technology.

GM has put so many different engines in their cars over the years its ridiculous...Kind of like Chevy heads with the 'Pontiac' logo cast into them. The 1975 Pontiac shop manual shows a Buick production V8 in the Pontiac Ventura.

What Andrew has done is very tasteful and I don't think it detracts in any way from the original charater of the car.

As for me, I like the traditional cars too, but there is no argument what he has done with this GTO is impressive...Robert

[David Holmberg]

Andrew, I really like the new shaker set up, very cool way to have an old school cold air induction on a LSx motor.

Are you going to leave it as is, or paint, polish or powder coat it?

[blown 68]

cool scoop action! your getting too much positive attention andrew, maybe i should tell you to jack it up in the back, cut that hood hole a little bigger, and stuff a 6-71 topped poncho there like a real man.....:D;):D


(sorry, couldn't resist!!!!) once again, looks awesome andrew, clever work with the scoop, i dig it......



davey

[andrewb70]

Andrew, I really like the new shaker set up, very cool way to have an old school cold air induction on a LSx motor.

Are you going to leave it as is, or paint, polish or powder coat it?

I am going to just smooth out the welds, primer, and paint it. Nothing fancy.

Thanks for the kind words Davey.

My road trip is going pretty well. The car is running great and it is really a blast to be driving it all over the place. I put about 1800 miles on the car since I left Kentucky. Here is a shot of the car taken in Laramie, WY after being cleaned up a little bit.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo86.jpg

Andrew

[mzbk2l]

Looks great. I'd like to see more exterior pics with better views of the hood scoop.

You headed somewhere in particular, or just out cruisin'?

[andrewb70]

Looks great. I'd like to see more exterior pics with better views of the hood scoop.

You headed somewhere in particular, or just out cruisin'?

Mike,

I have many more pictures that I took along the way, but I can't post them yet because I didn't bring my lap top. If you go to the first post of this thread there is a link to the Popular Hotrodding website. There are a bunch of exterior shots showing the scoop.

My destination was Colorado, but I'm thinking about extending my trip further west.

Andrew

[Colin Frolick]

Very, very nice car Andrew. Fantastic work. Thanks for sharing it all, too.

Glad you're out having fun!

[Z Code 400]

Andrew,

Any issues running those upper control arms without bump stops????

[Colin Frolick]

Andrew,

Any issues running those upper control arms without bump stops????

probably only when he gets airborne :)

[andrewb70]

probably only when he gets airborne :)

Probably! But I try to keep all 4 tires on the ground at all times.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

I finally made it home to Bowling Green on Monday night. What a trip. I drove a combined total of about 3600 miles and got just under 20 mpg combined city and highway. I am sure that on some tanks I was getting 23-24 on the highway and in the city it was probably 16-17. Keep in mind that I wasn't driving with economy in mind. I was going 80-85 mph on the highway most of the time.

Today I gave the car some much needed TLC. It got a thorough cleaning, followed by some minor swirl mark removal, and a wax. I also went through some of the pictures that I took.

Here is a shot of the shaker from inside the car. This picture was taken in Iowa on the way to my stop in Lincoln, Nebraska.

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo87.jpg

As I was pulling into Lincoln Nebraska, I could see some very interesting weather brewing to the west. Here are a couple of shots that were taken just as the sun was setting in the west. The clouds were truly spectacular and fortunately nothing came of it except a thunder storm.

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo88.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo89.jpg

I might have mentioned it before, but the next morning I installed the 550 lb/in springs that I got from Speedway Motors. I also cleaned approximately 1.2 million bugs off the front of the car and washed it down.

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo90.jpg

The following morning I headed west to Wyoming. This shot was taken in western Nebraska. I just thought it looked neat.

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo91.jpg

On the morning of Saturday, June 21st, my friend Rory and I headed to Estes Park, Colorado for our 20th high school reunion. Rory has been a great friend since I was 15 and he is one of very few people who I will let drive my car. I think he misses having a running hot rod.

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo92.jpg

The drive from Laramie, WY to Estes Park, CO is very nice. We took 287 down to Ft. Collins and then on to Love Land. From Love Land we picked up highway 34 which winds through the mountains, along the Big Thompson river, up to Estes Park. This section of the canyon is called the "narrows."

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo93.jpg

During the summer months the road to Estes Park is filled with tourists and most of them barely go the posted 45 mph speed limit. Having lived in this area when I got my driver's license it is easy to see how I would be attracted to the pro-touring build style. There aren't too many straight roads in Estes Park and we always used to haul ass up and down both this canyon and the canyon that follows highway 36 from Estes Park down to Boulder. Good times!

Andrew

[blown 68]

great pics bro, keep the updates comin'!!!!!!


davey

[andrewb70]

great pics bro, keep the updates comin'!!!!!!

davey

Thanks for the kind words Davey.

Some of you have asked how the shaker assembly is held to the engine. Here is how:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo94.jpg

The tabs on the bottom of the base are shaped just like the tabs on LS7 coil covers. The grommets are available separately at your local Chevrolet dealership for under $3. At first I was a little concerned that the brackets would wear through the rubber from the vibration, but after 3600 miles everything looks good.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Yesterday I spent some time cleaning up the welds on the air intake tube and on the base. I gave it two coats of rattle can primer, follow by two coats of satin black. Turned out pretty good. I could have spent more time smoothing the welds but I am happy with the way it turned out.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo95.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo96.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo97.jpg

Andrew

[Mr_GTO]

Andy, looks awesome!

I know the road from Boulder to Estes Park very well....I used to go up that way with my ex when I lived out there in 1998-1999.

Would the welder who did yours be willing to make another?

[andrewb70]

.....
Would the welder who did yours be willing to make another?

Thank you! I am sure that the shop that made mine will be more than happy to make one for you.

http://www.schwartzperformance.com/

Andrew

[andrewb70]

One of the things that I really want to do before RTTH (Run through the Hills) in September is to give the wheels a makeover. I have 3 piece Kinesis wheels that can be taken apart. The great thing about being able to take the wheels apart is that it makes it very easy to clean them or give them a new look. Here is the wheel taken off the car:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo99.jpg

The outer lips were once polished but have since dulled. Not very pretty at all. The centers look OK but I want a slightly different look. There are 40 bolt around the circumference of the wheel. Once the bolts are taken out, the center separates from the inner and outer rim.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo100.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo101.jpg

The wheels get very dirty on the inside from driving. Don't ask me how this happens, but there were actually dead bugs stuck to the inside rim. Here is a dirty rim:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo102.jpg

Here is a rim after some time with Purple Power and a red scotch brite pad:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo103.jpg

I am going to clean up all of the inside rims and paint them silver. The pain will make clean up much easier. The outer rims will get re-polished for a nice, bright finish. The centers are going to get hard anodized and Teflon coated for extra durability.

I also measured the front wheels for the C6 ZO6 brakes that I have coming from Kore3. It's close, but it will clear.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo98.jpg

Andrew

[andrewb70]

New tires should be here first part of next week. I decided to go with the Falken Azenis RT-615 tires. The tires will be slightly shorter both in the back and in the front. In the back I will be running 295/40-18 and in the front I will have 255/40-18s. So the rear tires are a hair over 27 inches tall and the fronts are right at 26 inches tall.

The Nittos were good tires and had plenty of tread but it was time for a change. They were pretty old. The date code on the tires was from 2002.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

The rear Falkens showed up today.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo108.jpg

I am also getting a good handle on the vibration that I have been having above 75 mph. I have narrowed it all down to insufficient engagement between the output shaft and the slip yoke. The lack of engagement is allowing enough up and down movement of the yoke to cause a vibration. I got a new Strange Engineering slip yoke and tomorrow I am having a new driveshaft made that will slide the slip yoke further inside the transmission. There are some pictures and more discussion on the subject here:

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232582

Andrew

[Colin Frolick]

Andrew i'm curious on your transmission / yoke issues... i have the same 6 speed

i remember when i installed it i had to shorten the yoke, a stock length one won't go in allthe way cause it hits the speedo gear as you've shown. the directions from richmond say how much to cut off. i remember doing this with a sawzall!

anyway, do you know if the yoke you have has been shortened? maybe you don't need a whole new driveshaft to get a "longer" yoke?

i'd never thought of this as a source of vibrations, and i'm glad you're sharing all you're finding. my car vibrated ~80mph... but there were alot of other 'deficiencies' for sure.

[Colin Frolick]

and nice looking tires! i didn't know there was a 295/40-18. I knew there was a 295/35, c5 z06 rear size.

i'm thinking what size tires to put on my car. i'm even thinking i could use c5 or c6 wheels, since the front and rear suspensions will be redone they could accomodate the offset, and there's alot of choices for vettes. i like your wheels man.

[andrewb70]

and nice looking tires! i didn't know there was a 295/40-18. I knew there was a 295/35, c5 z06 rear size.

i'm thinking what size tires to put on my car. i'm even thinking i could use c5 or c6 wheels, since the front and rear suspensions will be redone they could accomodate the offset, and there's alot of choices for vettes. i like your wheels man.

I recently discovered the Falken 295/40s. They are perfect for muscle cars. Nice and wide and still tall enough with a generous sidewall. I can't wait to see how they will look and drive. My Nittos were nice but had a treadwear of 300! These are only 200 and are said to be very sticky.

Here is what the driveshaft looked like when installed into the transmission:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo104.jpg

By the looks of it most people would say that it looks OK. I thought so too. Here is what it looked like "inside."

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo106.jpg

The seal sits at the edge of the shiny part of the yoke. The bushing is about 13/16" from the seal. My yoke was cut down some in order for it not to hit the speedometer gear. The gear is located exactly 3.5" from the end of the output shaft. My yoke as cut too much I think:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo107.jpg

This is what it looked like with the driveshaft installed and the tailshaft housing removed. You can see there is plenty of room before the yoke hits the speedometer gear. I also wanted to see just how much the slip yoke actually moves with suspension travel. That is what the zip tie is for. I placed it firmly against the edge of the yoke and moved the car through about 7-8" of suspension travel. 3-4" up and 3-4" down. That is as far as the yoke moved. A whopping 1/8"!!!

So my new driveshaft will position my slip yoke much closer to the seal and it will give me barely enough room to install the driveshaft. I also installed 2 tailshaft bushings.

Andrew

[Colin Frolick]

"I recently discovered the Falken 295/40s. They are perfect for muscle cars. Nice and wide and still tall enough with a generous sidewall. I can't wait to see how they will look and drive. My Nittos were nice but had a treadwear of 300! These are only 200 and are said to be very sticky."

i just put some bf goodrich t/a "kd" tires in on my other car, they have a treadwear of 200. i swear it took them ~1000 miles to stop feeling greasy and squirmy... maybe this means they'll last a long time?? they are sticky. and pricey! i've heard those treadwear ratings can be unreliable.

[andrewb70]

"I recently discovered the Falken 295/40s. They are perfect for muscle cars. Nice and wide and still tall enough with a generous sidewall. I can't wait to see how they will look and drive. My Nittos were nice but had a treadwear of 300! These are only 200 and are said to be very sticky."

i just put some bf goodrich t/a "kd" tires in on my other car, they have a treadwear of 200. i swear it took them ~1000 miles to stop feeling greasy and squirmy... maybe this means they'll last a long time?? they are sticky. and pricey! i've heard those treadwear ratings can be unreliable.

I have a friend that runs these Falkens on his RX7. Then again a 4000 pound car is going to be harder on tires than a 3000 pound car. Time will tell. Price wise these weren't too bad. All 4 were $812 shipped to my door.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

This morning I took my slip yoke to Precision Driveline in Glasgow, KY. This is a one man operation and Terry was kind enough to let me snap some pictures while he made a new driveshaft.

The first thing that Terry did was slide my old driveshaft into a big lathe and cut off the old weld yokes. This was not nearly as dramatic as I thought it might be.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo109.jpg

I made some very careful measurements last night and the slip yoke needed to be trimmed just a little bit. Interestingly enough, the Strange yoke didn't have splines cut in it for the first 3/4" or so. According to my measurements that whole section without the splines needed to be trimmed off. Terry had a CNC Bridgeport that he used to mill the yoke.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo110.jpg

After the yoke was trimmed a new Neapco solid u-joint was mated to the weld yoke.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo111.jpg

Terry then measured and cut the tube, assembling it on his fixture, making sure that the ends of the shaft are indexed correctly.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo112.jpg

Once he was happy with the alignment and the straightness of the tube is was time to MIG weld the yokes to the tube.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo113.jpg

After the yokes were welded Terry allowed the shaft to cool down before balancing it. Here is the new finished shaft.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo114.jpg

The careful measuring really paid off. I was able to slide the slip yoke inside the transmission and the rear u-joint BARELY slipped into the pinion yoke. This is about as long as the driveshaft can be without being TOO long.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo115.jpg

After the driveshaft was installed there was no more noticeable lateral movement at the slip yoke. I don't know if this was my sole source of the driveline vibration, but I am 100% sure it was a contributing factor. I will know for sure once the car is back on the road in a couple of weeks.

Andrew

[Colin Frolick]

for a second I thought the spray bottle in pic #6 was a beer. heh.

keep the updates rollin' man.

[Z Code 400]

Andrew,

Very nice work...again....:-)

I picked up a set of the upper control arms from Mark at SC&C. I opted for the 'tall' upper ball joint to improve my roll center and caster/camber curves. They are fantastic to say the least and much, much better than the Global West or Detroit Speed parts.

It's not easy being a 'dinosaur' and staying with the 15" wheels, but I like the look....Robert

[andrewb70]

Andrew,

Very nice work...again....:-)

I picked up a set of the upper control arms from Mark at SC&C. I opted for the 'tall' upper ball joint to improve my roll center and caster/camber curves. They are fantastic to say the least and much, much better than the Global West or Detroit Speed parts.

It's not easy being a 'dinosaur' and staying with the 15" wheels, but I like the look....Robert

Thanks for the compliments. There is nothing wrong with running 15s, but the tire selection is just so limited.

Here are the Falkens compared to the Nitto 555s. The Nitto 295/45 is about an inch bigger in diameter than the 295/40 Falken. This will translate to about a 1/2" drop in ride height, which is no big deal.


http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo116.jpg

The more interesting part is that the Falkens have just over an inch more actual tread width! The advertised section width on the Falkens are stated to be about .4" wider than the Nittos. I can't wait to see how these tires work.


http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo117.jpg

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Today I got my ATS spindles:


http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo118.jpg

ATS did an awesome job of packaging the spindles for safe shipping. I ordered mine with some new billet steel hubs from Vansteel. These use a tapered bearing design that is more durable and I also got the optional GM Racing wheel studs. These hubs are assemblies are being used on SCCA World Challenge cars with great success.

Before taking my spindles off I wanted to test for myself the bump steer that everyone has talked about with the b-body swap. I certainly felt it on my road trip. So I got my dial indicator out and attached the base to the frame and positioned the tip against the rotor. I made sure the rotor had a couple lug nuts on it to keep it steady.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo120.jpg

This was a very limited test because I did not take the coilover off and run the suspension through its full range of travel. However, I was able to measure the bump steer from approximately ride height through 1.5" of travel in rebound. Here are the numbers.

Ride height-------dial indicator set to zero
1/2" rebound-----.1" toe in
1" rebound-------.2" toe in
1.5" rebound-----.320" toe in

I am no suspension expert, but I am pretty sure the above numbers suck ass. Once my brakes are here, I will do the same test with the ATS spindles installed.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo119.jpg

On a side note, since the rear end was on jack stands I wanted to see if my vibration was gone. I started the engine, ran it up in 5th gear (1:1) and at about 3200 RPM I am still getting that buzzing vibration. I messed around with the pinion angle and nothing made any difference. I finally put a dial indicator on the driveshaft at the rear to measure the run-out. I watched Terry do this on his fixture and I knew the shaft was within .002". To my surprise I saw .038" on the dial indicator. I suspect that my pinion yoke is off. This is driving me insane. Tomorrow I may try the old "hang big hose clamps on the driveshaft test."

I am open to suggestions. :/

Andrew

[Hurst65]

I'm sure he probably did but, did he recheck the runout after welding it up to make sure that it was still within limits??

Do the caps on the U-joint fit nice and snug into the pinion yoke? With the shaft bolted into the pinion yoke can you grab it and move any at all side to side in the yoke? It is possible that the "little ears" on the yoke may be worn.

If the shaft was properly balanced (I'm sure it probably was, it looks like he has a nice machine) then I wouldn't waste any time messing around with it. The problem is probably somewhere else.

[andrewb70]

I'm sure he probably did but, did he recheck the runout after welding it up to make sure that it was still within limits??

Do the caps on the U-joint fit nice and snug into the pinion yoke? With the shaft bolted into the pinion yoke can you grab it and move any at all side to side in the yoke? It is possible that the "little ears" on the yoke may be worn.

If the shaft was properly balanced (I'm sure it probably was, it looks like he has a nice machine) then I wouldn't waste any time messing around with it. The problem is probably somewhere else.

The pinion yoke doesn't have that many miles on it. The u-joint fits very tightly between the little tabs. When Terry made the driveshaft he did in fact check the runout after welding it. In the rear it was very good, .002". I am running out of ideas.

Andrew

[Silver Judge]

Nice job on this engine swap and all of the re-engineering you've done Andrew

Yeah, it would be cooler with a pontiac engine in my opinion but you've built a helluva nice driver here.

Good luck on the vibration, keep us posted on that and how those new spindles turn out, those are supposed to be some pretty nice pieces

[Z Code 400]

Andrew,

I have seen the 'straps' stretch and allow the U-Joint to 'float' even though the bolts are tight. I'm not sure if you have U-Bolts or Straps, but it could be worth looking into.

When we were building V8 Vegas, I encountered one with a similar vibration. We just couldn't figure it out. After a while, I just laid under the car during lunch and pondered the problem. I discovered the driveline was out of alignment laterally. In the case of this car, the frame brackets were off by a mile from the factory and the unibody wouldn't have survived cutting them off and re-welding. We just moved the upper and lower perches to shift the axle centerline.

Probably not a problem in your car, but you could have an off-center yoke on the rear axle???...Robert

[andrewb70]

Andrew,

I have seen the 'straps' stretch and allow the U-Joint to 'float' even though the bolts are tight. I'm not sure if you have U-Bolts or Straps, but it could be worth looking into.

When we were building V8 Vegas, I encountered one with a similar vibration. We just couldn't figure it out. After a while, I just laid under the car during lunch and pondered the problem. I discovered the driveline was out of alignment laterally. In the case of this car, the frame brackets were off by a mile from the factory and the unibody wouldn't have survived cutting them off and re-welding. We just moved the upper and lower perches to shift the axle centerline.

Probably not a problem in your car, but you could have an off-center yoke on the rear axle???...Robert

Robert,

When I got the new driveshaft made I actually picked up a set of new straps.

I believe a-bodies had the engine centered, but the pinion is offset slightly to one side. As long as both the pinion and output shaft point straight back (as viewed from the top) then everything should be OK. How would I even go about checking that? :/

This sucks. I am running out of ideas. The car is up on 4 jack stands right now and I am trying various pinion angles and nothing seems to make much difference. The car starts to vibrate at right around 2200 RPM driveshaft speed, regardless of what gear it is in.

I tried hanging hanging hose clamps at the back of the driveshaft in order to see if I can make a difference, but that seemed to make things worse. I clocked the heavy sid of the clamp so it was on the light side of the pinion yoke.

If I knew that throwing money at it would fix it, I would do it. I just don't know what to replace.

Andrew

[Z Code 400]

Andrew,

Some leteral offset is OK, but our Vega was substantial; to the tune of almost 1" overall. We verified this by super gluing string to the crank snout, gearbox output and pinion shafts, making 'plumb bobs' with castle nuts. We then placed a string through the nuts and tied it between two brake drums.

Once the engine/gearbox were on-center, moving the differential was easy. However, I don't think this is the problem with your car.

We had a customer's car with a similar vibration and we discovered it was the exhaust system causing it. The pipes were completely rigid and when we unbolted the exhaust and let it hang loosely, it went away completely.

If you had .002" runout on the bench and .0038" in the car, could you have a improperly machined U-Joint????....Robert

[Hurst65]

Driveshafts are assembled, welded, and balanced with the u-joints in place.

Is the pinion itself loose??

[andrewb70]

Driveshafts are assembled, welded, and balanced with the u-joints in place.

Is the pinion itself loose??

That is correct. The driveshaft was assembled and checked with the rear u-joint in place.

There is no noticeable play in the pinion. The rear end was gone through by a good friend of mine who is an excellent mechanic and engineer. The pinion yoke is off a bit, but I did the hose clamp test to try and offset the imbalance and it made zero difference. It just seems like nothing I do makes that big of a difference.

Robert,

I was really hopeful that your exhaust theory would pan out. My exhaust is anchored very firmly and I thought that might be it. So I loosened the hangers that attached the exhaust to the frame, just in front of the rear axle, and there was no change at all.

The next step I am tempted to do is support the frame in the rear and put a jack under the rear end. Then position the rear end to simulate stock ride height dimensions, God knows what those are, and see if that makes any difference.

I wish I had a spare rear end or transmission around for testing :/

Andrew

[Hurst65]

I'm a little confused...what do you mean by "the pinion yoke is off a bit"?
Are you saying that it looks like it was machined off center or that it has been "tweaked" somehow? If that is the case and it is causing the runout on the shaft to increase that much, it would be next to imposible to balance the drive shaft or would atleast require alot of weight to do so.

Also, if you are running the car on stands the rear should be at normal ride height. If the rear is just hanging down the working angles on the joints will be increased and may contribute to your vibration issues.

Hope this helps!!
Eric

[andrewb70]

I'm a little confused...what do you mean by "the pinion yoke is off a bit"?
Are you saying that it looks like it was machined off center or that it has been "tweaked" somehow? If that is the case and it is causing the runout on the shaft to increase that much, it would be next to impossible to balance the drive shaft or would atleast require alot of weight to do so.

Also, if you are running the car on stands the rear should be at normal ride height. If the rear is just hanging down the working angles on the joints will be increased and may contribute to your vibration issues.

Hope this helps!!
Eric

Eric,

Thanks for the help. The car is supported under the frame in the front and on the rear axle in the rear. So it is at ride height.

The pinion yoke does indeed look like it is machined off center. At this point that seems to be my main culprit.

Andrew

[Hurst65]

Okay...
If the pinion yoke is not machined right and it is causing the runout at the rear of the shaft to be off as much as you say it is, then I would say that is your problem. That would be really werid if that was indeed the problem but, I suppose that it is possible. With the runout being off that much on one end of the shaft it would take alot of weight to even begin to make it balanced (if at all possible).

It would be nice if you had another pinion yoke to swap in there and see what happens...

Sweet car BTW!!! Hope you get it worked out!!

Eric

[andrewb70]

I got the wheel centers back today and they look pretty amazing.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo121.jpg

I should have the polished rims tomorrow and then I can start on assembling the wheels.

During a recent trip to Chicago I stopped by The Parts Place and picked up a new pinion yoke. After installing it, I measured the run out and it was .004", quite a bit less than the run out on the other yoke which was about .040". I ran it up to speed on the jackstands and it was very smooth in 5th gear (1:1) all the way up to 4500 RPM. It still vibrated a little in 6th, but I think most of that is due to the fact that there is no load on the driveline. I am going to leave it for now and see how it feels going down the road.

The brakes should be here next week, then I can be back on the road.

Andrew

[mzbk2l]

Wheel centers look great! Sounds like you're getting on top of the vibration, too.

[andrewb70]

At 4pm this afternoon I showed up at the polisher's place and the wheels were done, as promised. I have to admit the results were better than I imagined. This guy is simply amazing. His name is Jeff Smith and it turns out he did all of the brushed aluminum work on Bob Johnson's Cuda. I am pretty sure that they weren't this nice when I first got the wheels. I got them home, masked off the front, and spray painted the inner hoop silver. I figured that having a painted inner rim will be easier to clean than a plain aluminum one. After painting I applied a generous coating of wax to the polished surface to seal them a little bit. After that it was time to assemble the wheels. I lined up the center according to the marks that I made before taking the wheels apart. This way the wheels go together exactly the same way with the center going back to its rim. I used a little anti-seize on the splined section of the bolts and drove them through the center and the rim. Then I flipped the wheel over and started torquing the nuts in a star pattern. It took about 2 hours to do one wheel but the results were well worth it. It's like a brand new wheel!

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo122.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo123.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo124.jpg

The little notch marks on the back are to keep track of the torque sequence. With 40 nuts to tighten, it is very easy to loose your place.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Today I assembled the rest of the wheels and had the tires mounted. I am very impressed with the Falken tires. Neither front wheels needed any weight. One rear tire needed .75 oz while the other balanced with only .50 oz. That is very impressive considering the size of the tires.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Teaser shot of the wheels on the car.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo125.jpg

Andrew

[Hurst65]

Sweet!!!:thumbup:

[andrewb70]

This morning I got my brake components from Kore3 (http://www.kore3.com). Tobin at Kore3 has outstanding customer service and I am very pleased with the parts. I got C6 Z06 calipers, 14" DBA 4000 rotors, and Hawk HP Plus pads.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo126.jpg

More pictures to come.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

I drove it again this evening. In the morning I am going to get an alignment. The C6 Z06 brakes are very nice. I really like how the ATS spindles work with the OEM style brakes. Everything bolted together beautifully.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo127.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo128.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo129.jpg

The car is sitting a little higher in the front now. This is due to the fact that my old spindles had a 2 inch drop compared to stock. I believe the ATS spindles are about an inch lower than stock. I was going to lower it, but I think I am going to keep it this way. It's nice not having to worry about any sort of rubbing with the tires. I also think that the springs will settle some over the winter.

Andrew

[mzbk2l]

That thing must be a blast to drive now. I've had my eye on kore3 parts for some time now, but they just seem like such overkill compared to the rest of my stock ride.

[Z Code 400]

Andrew,

I noticed you mounted your ball joint on the bottom of the plate. Was that for more clearance??? Also, looks like you are still using the stock upper control arm attaching studs. Are you using any kind of shims (sleeves) between the studs and the control arms to take up the clearance???

I have the same upper control arms on my 1972 Formula...Robert

[andrewb70]

Andrew,

I noticed you mounted your ball joint on the bottom of the plate. Was that for more clearance??? Also, looks like you are still using the stock upper control arm attaching studs. Are you using any kind of shims (sleeves) between the studs and the control arms to take up the clearance???

I have the same upper control arms on my 1972 Formula...Robert

I put the ball joint on the bottom because that makes the spindle seem a little taller. The instructions said either way is acceptable.

I am not using any sleeves, but I probably should.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

I measured the distance from the ground to the headers and right now it is 5". While the car would look a little better lowered, I think it is important to keep the car as practical as possible, without the danger of hurting parts. So for now, it will stay where it is.

Today I did a little project that I have been neglecting to do. Many of you have asked me what I am doing to retain the axle in rebound. To recap, I am using short 9.5" springs in the rear. The problem is that when the axle drops, the springs get unloaded. This is not a good situation. And while the odds of getting the car air borne are fairly slim, if it were to happen it might be catastrophic. The other issue is that the single pigtail springs do not seat really well in the upper spring pocket.

I picked these up on eBay for $20 shipped:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo130.jpg

They are rubber spring isolators from a 4th gen F-body. They fit the single pigtail springs perfectly:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo131.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo132.jpg

The rubber spring isolators fit perfectly into the upper spring pocket on the a-bodies.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo133.jpg

Here is what I did to keep the axle from dropping too far. I took a 2" nylon axle strap. It used these to loop over the rear axle when I was towing the car. At the top I attached one end to the T-bar of the upper shock mount:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo134.jpg

At the bottom I looped the loop around the shock mount stud:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo135.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo136.jpg

When the axle drops and hangs by the straps, the springs are still compressed about 1". This will keep them safely in place in case I want to do some Dukes of Hazzard maneuvers. :screwy:

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Yesterday I took the car to get the corner weight set and to make sure that my front sway bar was installed in such a way that it was not pre-loading the suspension. I took my car to Nashville, to Earl Owens Chassis. If anyone in that area needs any kind of fabrication or setup help, Earl knows his stuff.

Here are the new corner weights:

--LF------------------RF
1094-----------------1044



--LR-----------------RR
968-----------------913

This is with driver of similar weight to me.

Total: 4019 lbs
Distribution: 53.2 Front / 46.8% rear

Cross weight 50%

This was done with the front sway bar disconnected. Minor adjustments were needed on the drivers side rear spring jack to get the cross weight to 50%. Once the weights were adjusted I installed the sway bar in such a way that it did not alter any of the corner weights. I know that the sway bar was preloading the suspension fairly heavily before. This was evident by the fact that when I made right turns, the car would handle very neutral. There was just a hint of understeer that was easily controlled with the throttle. When making left turns the car would push much harder and the understeer was less controllable with the throttle.
Now the car handles the same way whether I am making left or right turns.

After installing the AFX spindles, I had to get the car aligned again. I decided to add just a hair more negative camber.

-.7* camber
5.5* caster ( little more on the right)
0 toe

The handling is very neutral. There is just a hint of understeer that is easily modulated with the throttle. The biggest difference is going over bumps, especially when just one wheel hits a bump. Before, the car would dart and wander. I have no doubt that this was cause by the bump steer due to the b-body spindle swap. With the AFX spindles all of that is gone. The car tracks straight as an arrow when going over bumps. There is a slight tendency to track along the grooves in the road, but I attribute that to the shorter sidewall on the new tires.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Tonight I decided to take the car to the drag strip to see how my new tires worked. I got to the track, did my burn out. The car pulled hard out of the hole. I was able to launch it from about 3000 RPM, slipping the clutch a little, no tire spin. On the 1-2 shift, it felt like I missed second. No big deal. I aborted the run. Stepped on the clutch and got nothing. No pressure at all. Straight to the floor. I matched the RPM and got the car into 3rd gear and drove back to the pits. Looked under the car and saw a nice little stream of fluid coming from the bellhousing. So the hydraulic TOB puked.

I now have less than 9 days until RTTH IV. I need to order a rebuild kit. I may even order a new TOB. I am not looking forward to spending the weekend on my back, but it's better that this happened now and now a week from now.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

No mystery here:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo137.jpg

Based on the cut in the o-ring the problem was over traveling the bearing. I guess the excitement of drag racing made me press on the clutch pedal just a little bit more than when I drive around town. I will do some more investigating and see if I can limit the movement of the pedal and still get enough travel at the bearing to release the clutch.

Stay tuned for more.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

All fixed. It's raining so no test drive but I am sure its fine. I shortened the rod that connects the pedal to the MC. This reduced the stroke of the MC thus reducing the stroke of the TOB. I was still able to turn the output shaft easily by hand when the clutch was pressed. So I was definitely overtraveling the TOB before. Back on track for RTTH IV!

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Here is a link to some pictures from last weekend's Run Through The Hills IV event. Good times!

Run Through the Hills pictures (http://www.flickr.com/photos/trapin/)

Andrew

[mzbk2l]

That looks like a blast! Some nice rides there. Were those all your pics?

[andrewb70]

That looks like a blast! Some nice rides there. Were those all your pics?

It was definitely a blast, Mike. All of those pictures were taken by my friend, Tony.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

I took the car to the track this Saturday. The weather was awesome. Clear skies, dry, and high 60s. I only made 3 passes because my time was limited and there were a ton of people at the track. All passes were made without fooling around with tire pressure or shock settings. Drove it right off the street, into the staging lanes. My first pass netted the best MPH to date; 112.31 MPH. The second pass netted a my best ET to date:

60' 2.064
1/4 12.602
MPH 110.97

This is my last trip to the track for this year and I am very pleased.

Andrew

[Pontiacmuscle]

Totally Ingenious build and results. Thanks for sharing it all.

Josh

[andrewb70]

Totally Ingenious build and results. Thanks for sharing it all.

Josh

Thanks Josh.

The pictures are fixed. Sorry for the troubles.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Here is a video clip that was made by Brian Finch. Thanks Brian!

RTTH Video (http://hotrodtransformations.com/AndrewB70%20RTTHIV.wmv)

Please right click and save to your local drive.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Here is another video that was put together by Kevin Oeste from V8 TV. Thanks Kevin!

V8 TV Video (http://v8tvshow.com/content/view/724/40/)

Andrew

[cdoggy81]

Good bit of driving there :)

[andrewb70]

Good bit of driving there :)

Thanks! I did OK. By the time I figured out what I was doing, I was done with my runs. :-/

Andrew

[andrewb70]

I really haven't had much to report up until now. Yesterday I was looking around on www.chevelles.com, a member posted that he just had his Doug Nash 4+1 converted to dog-ring engagement by Liberty. This got me thinking. The old Doug Nash is very similar to my Richmond 6 spd. I have never been very pleased with the way my transmission shifts. I have dealt with Liberty before on a dog-rign T56 transmission for my RX7, and I was very pleased with the results. So after talking it over with Paul, I decided to get my Richmond done. Gears 1-4 will get faceplated and 5th and 6th will remain synchronized. No need to have dog-rings on cruising gears. Total price will be about $800. I am pretty excited!

Andrew

[fbrown]

I'm having trouble finding a PS hose for my 68 Lemans/LS3 conversion. What did you use in yours?

[andrewb70]

I'm having trouble finding a PS hose for my 68 Lemans/LS3 conversion. What did you use in yours?

I converted the fittings in the steering box and in the power steering pump to AN style fittings. Then I had custom hose made at my local, industrial hose supplier.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Drove to the track on Tuesday evening. Didn't make any adjustments to the car at the track. Ran a 12.57@112 and a 12.52@112, then drove home.

Andrew

[cdoggy81]

& you prob. got over 20+ MPG on the way home too! These LS engines rock!

[andrewb70]

& you prob. got over 20+ MPG on the way home too! These LS engines rock!

I would guess about 20 mpg. I haven't been able to confirm because I can't fully fill my tank. Projects are never done. LOL

Andrew

[Daves67GTO]

I am very impressed with your work, pictures and descriptions Andrew! Awesome car you have there. I have been toying around with the idea of putting an LSx engine in one of my cars for a while now. Yesterday, I bought a wrecked '06 GTO with 5013 miles on it. It has an LS2 with a 6spd tranny. Now I have to decide which way to go with it - 67 GTO convertible or 70 GTO hardtop...

I have a buddy that is a chassis builder and he had a radical idea. I was wondering if it would be possible to splice the entire 06 GTO subframe onto the GTO frame and graft the frame horns from the 70 onto the 06 or fabricate some brackets so that the core support/bumper will hook up properly. Any thoughts on this? Thanks.

[455HOGT37]

...I was wondering if it would be possible to splice the entire 06 GTO subframe onto the GTO frame and graft the frame horns from the 70 onto the 06 or fabricate some brackets so that the core support/bumper will hook up properly. Any thoughts on this? Thanks.

The Holden is a unibody car with strut front suspension - no upgrade over the '67 setup there. The rear is independent, but it's a weak diff, and the suspension itself is heavy and not at all sophisticated in it's action - not the best choice even if it's free. Many much better options for suspension (Vette, aftermarket, etc). Free advice; take it for what it's worth.

[Daves67GTO]

Thanks HOG455T37

I looked under the 06 today and can clearly see that it won't work. Thanks for the input! I guess it was a pretty dumb idea LOL!

[brianberes]

I saw a TV show just recently on the Speed channel and they cut the body off of a 04-06 GTO and welded the bottom and all the chassis to a 69 GTO and turned it into a black modified clone Judge that was low and sweet looking. In the show it had the West Coast guys doing the work, so whatever show they are on every week customizing cars is the show you can find it.

[Daves67GTO]

Hi Brian,

I have been trying to find the show you are talking about but haven't had any luck. That is an interesting idea and I would really like to see that episode. I have a '67 project car that I wouldn't mind doing major surgery on so any help is appreciated. Thanks.

Dave

[6 Grrrs]

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=601159

[andrewb70]

Dave,

Sorry I haven't been around. It looks like others have jumped in and answered your question. Personally I think that it would be way too much work for too little gain to put an old GTO body on a new GTO unibody. A modern engine is an easy swap into old cars. The old suspension is simple in design, but it can be made to work just as well as the new GTO suspension, if not better.

Andrew

[Stuart]

There's a guy in the 1961-1963 Tempest section who's in the process of marrying an '06 GTO and a '63 Lemans. http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=592464

[brianberes]

Dave,
I just watched the video about 4 weeks ago and for sure it had the West Coast crew doing the work. But, these guys are right it seems like a lot of work for little payback. I would just modify the existing suspension on the goat with all the latest pieces available from the aftermarket and if that's not enough they do offer a complete modern frame and suspension kit for the GTOs and I just saw an article listing them for A & F bodys in one of the latest High Performance Pontiac magazines or was it the other Pontiac magazine??? Anyways, lots of options.
Brian

[Daves67GTO]

Thanks everyone for the input. I bought an LS1 w/T56 six speed out of an SS Camaro that I am going to use in my 1970 GTO. I'm going to put the 06 transplant on the back burner for a while. My plan is to use the Global West front suspension and a Chris Alston 9" rear end housing w/4 link setup. I've already fabbed a set of motor mounts for the LS1 and so far so good. Looks like I will be able to use the automatic console with a custom boot for the shifter on the T56. Still working on the harness, gauges, ecm, etc... If I'm lucky, I should be able to fire it up in a few weeks! :o)

[andrewb70]

Hello everyone. I really don't have a whole lot to report with this build. For now it is done. I had some changes in my life recently. All for the better. I am no longer living in KY, but in Memphis. With my move, a lack of space, and money, I had to store the car. It's currently living a quiet life in Lincoln, NE, with my friend Brian, who painted the car. If things go according to plan I hope to be driving the car around Kentucky this summer, a lot!!! Stay tuned for any developments on that.

One thing I did want to mention about my engine combination. The valve train is a little bit noisy. I have done some research and it appears that the LS7 cam has a slightly smaller base circle than the L92 cam. In retrospect, I should have gotten push rods that are a hair longer. I know several people have been doing similar a combination of parts, so I wanted to pass along my thoughts. If anyone is in the process of installing an LS7 cam, double check all the measurements and see if I am correct. The fix is simple and I plan on doing it in the spring.

Andrew

[RR67GTO]

I've heard, that the GM service replacments for the later GTO's were selling for a really decent price. And, a frind of mine who knows where to look said I was right. Something about needing to change the oil pan to fit the A body cars. When I say decent price, I mean very decent. so, maybe that along with a beter intake from say the take off Vett parts you see a lot of would make a nie and affordable engine. NOt sure of the details yet, as I have couple of new GM engines I need to deal with before buying anything else. Sorry friends, I'm dead tired.... Mike

[andrewb70]

Hello Everyone.

It has been almost a year since I last updated this thread. Once again, due to the circumstances in my life, the GTO has found itself in storage. I moved to Memphis last year to pursue a PhD in marketing. My current living situation doesn't allow for any sort of secure storage of the GTO, so it spent 2009 with my friend Brian, in Nebraska. Brian did the body work and paint on my car and if anyone is looking for a reliable body man, please PM me. Business started to pick up for Brian in the spring and as a result the car is now at an undisclosed location in Tennessee.

However, the journey from Nebraska to Tennessee was not without some adventures. About 60 miles from Kansas City the shifter handle started shaking and there was a terrible noise that was emanating from the transmission. By the sheer mercy and generosity of several people I was able to get the car to Tennessee. Upon further inspection it was determined that one of the mainshaft support bearings had failed in my Richmond 6 speed. As everyone might recall, I have battled some vibration issues in the past, and I am convinced that this caused the pre-mature failure of the bearing. The failed bearing was simply a manifestation of a problem with the driveline, not an inherent problem with the Richmond 6 speed.

I would really like to attend some events next summer, so I will be making the GTO drivable again. In the spirit of keeping my GTO up to date, I will be swapping the Richmond transmission for something else. So stay tuned for more details. I will be documenting the installation in great detail.

Andrew

[gearbanger]

Seems like the T56 has become the bruiser tranny and shifts alot better than the TKOs from what I gather.

[andrewb70]

I had an opportunity to visit my car and to pull the transmission. My sincere gratitude goes to Bill Howell. He not only helped me pull the transmission, but he also built a killer crate to ship it.

Here is the Richmond 6 speed, just pulled out from under the car. I may really get used to working with a lift. Sure beats pulling a transmission on your back!

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo138.jpg

Here is Bill, hard at work, measuring twice and cutting once.

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo139.jpg

Progress....

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo140.jpg

Packed up, and ready to be shipped off to my friend, John Parsons, for a rebuild.

http://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo141.jpg

Stay tuned for more progress and a new transmission.

Andrew

[David Holmberg]

Wow Andrew, you always seem to find a way to make life interesting.

I hope 2011 treats you better, and you can make a few shows this year.

[andrewb70]

Wow Andrew, you always seem to find a way to make life interesting.

I hope 2011 treats you better, and you can make a few shows this year.

Life is always very interesting for me. It's what makes it fun.

So yesterday I was playing around with the video capabilities of my new camera. Look what I captured...

Engine video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5Lt96DAnnA)

Andrew

[6 Grrrs]

Is that your new engine???

[andrewb70]

Is that your new engine???

Nahhh....But its a sweet running monster, isn't it?

Andrew

[6 Grrrs]

I thought maybe you were upgrading already...

[andrewb70]

The spring semester has been brutal, but it will all be over in about 3 weeks. My last final is on May 5th. I am still in limbo in regards to a new transmission, but I have also been exploring some other items. I will simply post a couple of pictures and see if you eagle eye techie types can spot what I am trying to show. These are some new adjustable rear upper control arms that I will be installing to replace my current aftermarket control arms. The picture is of the same arm, just at different angles.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo142.jpg

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo143.jpg

Does anyone see what I am looking at?

Andrew

[HWYSTR455]

Difference in angle of the mount to the rear housing....


...

[andrewb70]

Difference in angle of the mount to the rear housing....


...

Hmmmmm....maybe. I am not quite sure what you mean, so please elaborate.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

The bracket that slips over the rear end bushing is offset to the driver's side. Before you all demand the name of the vendor, I would like to point out that this control arm is the only one on the market that is built CORRECTLY. You see, the stock control arms are built with exactly the same offset as these control arms. Every other manufacturer, that I have seen, makes upper rear control arms so that the front and rear bushings are inline. This is INCORRECT! This also explains why the rear end in my car is offset to the passenger side by a good 1/2-3/4" as measured from the wheel to the frame. I have seen posts on various forums where people have complained about a similar problem. I also believe that this improper positioning of the rear end has been contributing the ever present vibration problem that I have been having.

I would like to thank Bret Voelkel and RideTech for making a fine product and paying attention to the little details that can have a big impact on the performance of our cars.

Andrew

[Motornoggin]

Hey buddy!

[HWYSTR455]

Andrew - Are you sure the stock control arms have the offset? When measuring for wheel/tire fitment, in many cases, even with stock components, the offset has been present in all the cars I've dealt with. This, as well as there not being a listing for a left and right side control arm from the factory suggests that the factory ones aren't offset? Finally, I don't believe, or it's my understanding, that any minor offset to one side or the other would cause a vibration issue.

Maybe someone else can chime in, but if, the uppers have the offset as have been built into the ones you had made, AND it's not supposed to be there, won't is cause a wheel hop issue? My thinking: It will load the upper part of the rear to the driver's side, in turn lifting the passenger wheel, and won't load it properly on accelleration.

By the way, f-bodies have the offset as well, from the factory. It was my understanding this is to create a straight line through the pinion gear, and allow the factory to use same size axles on both sides.


.

[andrewb70]

Andrew - Are you sure the stock control arms have the offset? When measuring for wheel/tire fitment, in many cases, even with stock components, the offset has been present in all the cars I've dealt with. This, as well as there not being a listing for a left and right side control arm from the factory suggests that the factory ones aren't offset? Finally, I don't believe, or it's my understanding, that any minor offset to one side or the other would cause a vibration issue.

Maybe someone else can chime in, but if, the uppers have the offset as have been built into the ones you had made, AND it's not supposed to be there, won't is cause a wheel hop issue? My thinking: It will load the upper part of the rear to the driver's side, in turn lifting the passenger wheel, and won't load it properly on accelleration.

By the way, f-bodies have the offset as well, from the factory. It was my understanding this is to create a straight line through the pinion gear, and allow the factory to use same size axles on both sides.


.

I am quite certain that the stock control arms were offset. I have seen several sets and all have this feature. The reason there isn't a left and a right part number is that the stock control arms can only be installed on way: with the U-shaped channel pointing down. In other words, they can't be installed upside down. So there is no need to have a left and a right arm. All arms are built the same way and swapping them left to right makes no difference in relation to the offset.

You are correct in saying that a minor offset may not matter in terms of vibration issues, as long as the pinion shaft and the transmission output shaft are parallel as view from the top (or bottom).

I know that GM 12 bolt rear ends (which is what I have) use same length axles. That means that the pinion gear has to be slightly offset (towards the passenger side) in relationship to the housing. So it makes sense to have the housing slightly offset to the driver's side in order to line up the pinion with the transmission.

When I get back to my car and install these control arms I will be double checking the position of all driveline components.

I am open to all comments and suggestions.

Andrew

[HWYSTR455]

Oh yeah, duh on the different part numbers! Ok, strike one against me!

I'm curious about this latest topic, and really want to hear other's input too. I just disassembled my entire cutlass rear suspension, wish I would have taken all the measurements prior, and compared the uppers with the aftermarket ones. My LeMans has GW uppers I believe, and it doesn't have any vibration issue, and I've topped that thing out many times. I did have a pinion bearing go bad due to a yoke 'nub' being worn, and the u-joint not seating right, which vibrated and took out the bearing. Aside from that, no vibration though.

Explain the vibration? Specific speed range, or above a certain speed? And it's not RPM related?

.

[andrewb70]

Oh yeah, duh on the different part numbers! Ok, strike one against me!

I'm curious about this latest topic, and really want to hear other's input too. I just disassembled my entire cutlass rear suspension, wish I would have taken all the measurements prior, and compared the uppers with the aftermarket ones. My LeMans has GW uppers I believe, and it doesn't have any vibration issue, and I've topped that thing out many times. I did have a pinion bearing go bad due to a yoke 'nub' being worn, and the u-joint not seating right, which vibrated and took out the bearing. Aside from that, no vibration though.

Explain the vibration? Specific speed range, or above a certain speed? And it's not RPM related?

.

I am open to hearing from anyone that wants to comment on this issue. The vibration occurs at high speed. It starts at about 75 mph and down not go away as you go faster. It is dependent on the driveline speed, not engine speed. In other words it will occur in any gear that will go to that speed and is also present if you pop it into neutral. By those symptoms the vibration is in the driveline, most likely the driveshaft. This vibration has been present with two engines, two sets of tires, three driveshafts, two pinion yokes (the latest pinion yoke made it a little better), two front brake systems, and two rear end assemblies. The other clue that tells me that it is related to the driveshaft speed is the fact that the vibration moved in the MPH range when I switched rear ends. The first rear had a 3.31 gear and now it has a 3.73 gear. When I went to the 3.73 gear the vibration started to occur at a lower MPH (but same driveshaft speed) as before.

I had a lengthy conversation about this with Frank at the Driveshaft Shop. He is a good guy and I have dealt with him on some custom axles for my RX7. He just got a new high speed balancing machine and has been doing a lot of work with several NASCAR teams. He seems to believe that a material change is in order to bring the weight of the driveshaft down. Stock a-body driveshafts are about 2.5" in diameter and are fairly light. Even though I have gone through three different driveshafts they have all been 3.5" mild steel, and pretty heavy. Frank believes that going to an aluminum shaft will solve the problem and a carbon shaft would be even better.

As I said, I am all ears if anyone else has comments or suggestions.

Andrew

[HWYSTR455]

Well, by the sound of it, it's certainly behind the transmission. Did you change slip yokes when you did the driveshafts? An out of balance driveshaft can eat up a pinion bearing pretty quick, fyi. You tried new pinion yokes, correct? And how does the yoke center the u-joint, with 'nubs'? And the u-joints are centered in the nubs correctly?

When you changed the rears, did you change the axles and rotors? Maybe a axle flange isn't true? And/or the rotor doesn't sit flush/true? Have you had it on a frame rack? 4 wheel alignments?

I have never heard of a driveshaft's weight being an issue when it comes to balance, and used a several different ones in the LeMans as I went from a Th400 to a Th2004R, then a 4L80E, none had a vibration or balance issue, and all were mild steel. I run 373s, and have had it over 150 mph more times than I can count, no vibrations. Did the same guy balance all your driveshafts? Maybe just for sake of elimination, try someone else?

.

[andrewb70]

Well, by the sound of it, it's certainly behind the transmission. Did you change slip yokes when you did the driveshafts? An out of balance driveshaft can eat up a pinion bearing pretty quick, fyi. You tried new pinion yokes, correct? And how does the yoke center the u-joint, with 'nubs'? And the u-joints are centered in the nubs correctly?

When you changed the rears, did you change the axles and rotors? Maybe a axle flange isn't true? And/or the rotor doesn't sit flush/true? Have you had it on a frame rack? 4 wheel alignments?

I have never heard of a driveshaft's weight being an issue when it comes to balance, and used a several different ones in the LeMans as I went from a Th400 to a Th2004R, then a 4L80E, none had a vibration or balance issue, and all were mild steel. I run 373s, and have had it over 150 mph more times than I can count, no vibrations. Did the same guy balance all your driveshafts? Maybe just for sake of elimination, try someone else?

.

Each driveshaft was built by different people and I've had two different slip yokes. One was a Spicer yoke the other was a Strange Engineering billet yoke. The second rear end got Moser axles and I've installed new rotors. If it was an axle flange I suspect it would result in some serious, visible wobble at the wheel. I've run the car up on jack stands and have never noticed any wobble. I can easily double check this by checking the run-out, but I don't think that is the problem. If you look through some previous pages in this thread I discuss some other issues like driveline angles.

I have a new pinion yoke which uses 1330 u-joints and has tabs which position the u-joint. The u-joint fits snugly between the tabs. I am planning on getting a Mark Williams billet yoke.

Before I started building the car the frame was on a rack and there were no issues that were found at the time. It was straight, true, and square. I did have a 4 wheel alignment done at one time and they did mention something about the rear being slightly off. I don't recall if they said the rear was cocked or just shifted laterally. The lateral shift can be explained by the upper control arms being built wrong. If the rear was cocked, that would indicate either a frame that was out or lower control arms that were not the same length. I am using the GW lowers with heim joints at the frame and delrin at the rear housing.

Andrew

Is your Lemans lowered significantly?

[HWYSTR455]

Yeah, it's lowered about 2", ATS spindles, GW stuff, front uppers & lowers, springs, rear uppers & lowers, same as yours for the most part.

Has it been the same trans the whole time? And it's getting freshened up now? Had an issue with that? Might have been the output shaft causing it, since you had a prob there? Guess you'll know on that soon, so you will see.

Can look into the diag tools, there are certain harmonics that can indicate where the virbation is coming from, and also laser ones that can be used to measure. Believe there's one that has a transmitter you place on the balancer and pinion yoke, includes the entire driveline.

http://www.quartermidget.biz/products.asp?cat=58

http://dodgeram.info/tsb/1998/18-49-98.htm (look at the graph)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Electronic-Vibration-Analyzer-OT-38793-/250806120453

I know it can be frustrating, but stick with it, you'll ID it and get it corrected. If you end up tossing your arms in the air, try contacting a chassis builder/shop and have it looked at. A lot of the roundy-round guys deal with this stuff every day, and it's cake to them. Maybe even Schwartz, he could prob do it in his sleep. The rock crawler guys too, the are angle magicians.

.

[andrewb70]

Yeah, it's lowered about 2", ATS spindles, GW stuff, front uppers & lowers, springs, rear uppers & lowers, same as yours for the most part.

Has it been the same trans the whole time? And it's getting freshened up now? Had an issue with that? Might have been the output shaft causing it, since you had a prob there? Guess you'll know on that soon, so you will see.

Can look into the diag tools, there are certain harmonics that can indicate where the virbation is coming from, and also laser ones that can be used to measure. Believe there's one that has a transmitter you place on the balancer and pinion yoke, includes the entire driveline.

http://www.quartermidget.biz/products.asp?cat=58

http://dodgeram.info/tsb/1998/18-49-98.htm (look at the graph)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Electronic-Vibration-Analyzer-OT-38793-/250806120453

I know it can be frustrating, but stick with it, you'll ID it and get it corrected. If you end up tossing your arms in the air, try contacting a chassis builder/shop and have it looked at. A lot of the roundy-round guys deal with this stuff every day, and it's cake to them. Maybe even Schwartz, he could prob do it in his sleep. The rock crawler guys too, the are angle magicians.

.

Thanks for the links. I really dig the True laser Track driveline alignment tool. I think that is exactly what I need to get. It will help to align the rear end both laterally and pinion angle wise.

Yes, the same transmission was installed in the car the whole time, so it could have been the cause. I did check the output shaft runout and it was barely detected on the dial indicator, so I doubt that the trans was the problem.

I am definitely going to keep working at it. There is a solution to this problem.

Andrew

[gearbanger]

When I had my GTO off the frame, I was doing alot of measuring and checking, because I was really thinking about raising my trans tunnel so I could get the tailshaft up a bunch. I could only get my driveline angles within about 4 degrees. In other words 3 deg down on the trans, 1 deg up on the drive shaft and 3 deg up on the pinion. Like this \/\.

While I was looking I noticed that the pinion was 5/8" off centerline of the frame of the car. This is with Hotchkis uppers not stock. I do not believe this was caused by the uppers though becuase my backspacing puts the tires so close to the frame, that an offset of 5/8" would put one tire against the frame, and the other tire 1-1/4" off the frame. Everything is nearly perfectly centered on my setup. And my control ares are set equal length.

I was thinking about making my driveline in a perfectly straight line, and using the 5/8" offset as my working angle to keep the needles movign in the u-joints since 5/8" over the length of my driveshaft figured out to be right at a .5 deg if memory serves. But it all seemed like alot of work for a little benefit. I have the similar vibrations the Andrew has, and would love to figure it out as well.

So Andrew, are you saying both of your arms are offset in the same direction? I am just thinking out loud, but I am not sure that that is going to scoot the rear end over any, because they are still the same length, and that is going to force the rear end to the center. If the arms were parallel, obviously the rear would scoot over by the amount of the offset, but the triangulation seems to me like it would still pull the rear to a center location if both arms are the same length.

[gearbanger]

Okay, so I just came home and got out my old 67 model upper control arms, and the best I can measure, these have no offset at all. So maybe 70 is different?

[andrewb70]

Okay, so I just came home and got out my old 67 model upper control arms, and the best I can measure, these have no offset at all. So maybe 70 is different?

I wish I had my stock arms around so I could compare. It's also interesting that you have a vibration. What kind of driveshaft are you running? Material and diameter wise.

What are your front and rear working angles? Is it a high speed vibration, similar to what I have described?

I do plan on getting one of those laser driveline alignment tools. I think it will work very well in determining exactly the exact alignment of my driveline components.

I have also explore the possibility of having a dirveshaft made using CV joints instead of u-joints. I don't mean the cardon style CV joints that are used on 4x4. I mean true CV joints that are used for halfshafts on front wheel drive cars and cars with independent rear suspension. BMW rear ends are setup with pinion yoke that take Porsche 930 style CV joints.

The Driveshaft Shop has been building driveshafts with CV joints for various applications. Thus far they have focused on IRS applications, but their latest is for 2005-2011 MUstangs that have a live axle setup. It seems that some of these cars have high speed vibrations as well. The problem is that nobody makes pinion yokes or transmission yokes, that accommodate CV joints, for domestic rear and and transmissions. Maybe The Driveshaft Shop will step up top the plate and offer something unique. Using CV joints at both ends of the driveshaft will render any sort of driveline alignment issues, mute. CVs can operate at high angles and the relationship of the front and rear angles is irrelevant.

Andrew

[gearbanger]

Andrew, I had my driveshaft made by inland empire driveline when I did the TKO swap. Then when I had it off the frame I switch my pinion yoke to a 1350 U-joint so I had to shortn the driveshaft 1/2". I found a driveshaft shop in Glasgow KY call precision driveline. As soon as I walked into his shop I knew he was the guy I wanted to work on my car. Everything was so organized and clean. He had a driveshaft spin balancer and he checked it for runout in three places and he actually said it was kind of bad. It seems like he said it was about .005 out at one end or something? Its been a while so don't quate me on that. He said what the tolerance was and I remember that it was just outside the tolerance. But most vehicles are not beind made to run at 100+ mph. At any rate, it took him about 30 minutes and he was done, fixed my runout problem, shortened it .5", and balanced it for $40! I though that was awesome.

So anyway, I am hoping that was the problem. I havent had it out at any speed yet to see bu I will report back as soon as I can.

[gearbanger]

Also, mine is 3.5" steel. If you do an aluminum, I would have it sized smaller in the last 12" or so if you can, because mine wants to hit right at the back of the back seat tray, right where the rear seat bottom catch is in a hard bump like right on the bumpstops. The stock driveshafts were stepped in the back this way. Again, 70 may be different. I did not do aluminum because usually you have to go a size bigger in aluminum to keep the strength and I knew I did not want any more clearance issues.

[andrewb70]

Andrew, I had my driveshaft made by inland empire driveline when I did the TKO swap. Then when I had it off the frame I switch my pinion yoke to a 1350 U-joint so I had to shortn the driveshaft 1/2". I found a driveshaft shop in Glasgow KY call precision driveline. As soon as I walked into his shop I knew he was the guy I wanted to work on my car. Everything was so organized and clean. He had a driveshaft spin balancer and he checked it for runout in three places and he actually said it was kind of bad. It seems like he said it was about .005 out at one end or something? Its been a while so don't quate me on that. He said what the tolerance was and I remember that it was just outside the tolerance. But most vehicles are not beind made to run at 100+ mph. At any rate, it took him about 30 minutes and he was done, fixed my runout problem, shortened it .5", and balanced it for $40! I though that was awesome.

So anyway, I am hoping that was the problem. I havent had it out at any speed yet to see bu I will report back as soon as I can.

Look at post #156 in this thread. Do the pictures look familiar? LOL

Keep me posted. I am curious to see how you do with your vibration issue.

Andrew

[HWYSTR455]

You know, that's a very good point, many shops balance using the 60 mph sweet spot, and in many case that isn't even close. I know there are some cheaper balance machines that don't have as good a tolerance either, and I had to scout around to find one that will balance to my liking.

I think you may be over-engineering this issue, (something I'm guilty of regularly!), and is probably simpler than all this. Call Denny's or Inline, or Dutchman, any should be able to give you a lot of info. I would also stick with 1350s by the way.

I still say that diag tool that uses the harmonic freq to point you in the right direction is the ticket. That gets away from looking at it from a just angles point of view.

.

[andrewb70]

You know, that's a very good point, many shops balance using the 60 mph sweet spot, and in many case that isn't even close. I know there are some cheaper balance machines that don't have as good a tolerance either, and I had to scout around to find one that will balance to my liking.

I think you may be over-engineering this issue, (something I'm guilty of regularly!), and is probably simpler than all this. Call Denny's or Inline, or Dutchman, any should be able to give you a lot of info. I would also stick with 1350s by the way.

I still say that diag tool that uses the harmonic freq to point you in the right direction is the ticket. That gets away from looking at it from a just angles point of view.

.

I am going to work with Frank at the Driveshaft Shop. I have dealt with him on some custom axles for my RX7 project. He also just got a new balancing machine that will balance a shaft up to 9500RPM. He has been working with some NASCAR teams to address some of their issues.

I may have to stick with the 1350 u-joints, since there are yokes available to use CV joints. Although, the CV joints are a very elegant solution. They are used extensively on cars that are made to run at very high speeds for sustained periods of time. On the other hand, 1350 u-joints are used on trucks...just saying...LOL

Here is a link to the 2005+ Mustang driveshaft that Frank is coming out with:
http://driveshaftshop.com/blog/?p=440

Andrew

[HWYSTR455]

Ok, I have to admit, I haven't gone through all the posts regarding the vibration issue, though over this weekend, I will. I just got back from New Orleans, and trying to catch up here at work...

I did see on post 160 you mention there .038 run out at the shaft, and that's enough to cause a vibration I believe. You say the rear is pretty fresh? You've double checked the pinion and carrier bearings? Figured you have, but asked anyway!

I went through a little chase-my-tail initially with my vibration issue, since the pinion yoke took out a u-joint, replaced that, took out a tailshaft bushing, replaced that, and also took out a pinion bearing. By this time I had to replace the u-joint again. Maybe you're just suffering a little of the same karma, have to do it all at once or something? Just taking a stab, and sure at some point the light will come on and you'll go "Oh yeah!" and knock it out.

I'm curious, let me know when you do figure it out, will make a mental post-it note. If something comes to mind over the weekend after going through all the posts, I'll post any ideas.

.

[gearbanger]

Look at post #156 in this thread. Do the pictures look familiar? LOL Andrew

HAAAAA! That is helarious! He is a pretty good guy isn't he! So did your driveshaft have .038 runout? That is a bunch! Did he leave it that way or what was the deal?

I will definitely report back soon on it. I agree that u joints are such an archaic way of doing it, but it is strong. I don't know if cv joints can take the kind of abuse that a stick shift launch puts on a joint. Is there more stress on a driveshaft joint or a half shaft going to the wheel? Seems like there would be more torque on a half shaft, but maybe less impact do to gear reduction?

[Motornoggin]

Andrew,

Just read through most of this thread. It's neat to see the progression all right here lined out and easy to follow.

Knowing the overall story of your GTO since you first got it and we first became friends, I hafta say just how proud I am of you and how far you've come over the years!

Kudos to you my friend.

Talk to you soon.

Rory

[andrewb70]

HAAAAA! That is helarious! He is a pretty good guy isn't he! So did your driveshaft have .038 runout? That is a bunch! Did he leave it that way or what was the deal?

I will definitely report back soon on it. I agree that u joints are such an archaic way of doing it, but it is strong. I don't know if cv joints can take the kind of abuse that a stick shift launch puts on a joint. Is there more stress on a driveshaft joint or a half shaft going to the wheel? Seems like there would be more torque on a half shaft, but maybe less impact do to gear reduction?

My driveshaft didn't have .038" runout. I got that measurement when the shaft was mounted in my pinion yoke. I replaced the yoke and that greatly improved the total runout as measures when the driveshaft was mounted in the yoke. I am going to upgrade my pinion yoke to a billet one from Mark Williams.

The 108mm CV that The Driveshaft Shop uses can handle over 7000lb/ft of torque. That's about the same as a 1350 u-joint. Torque capacity should not be an issue.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/frankrehak/axle%20blog%20post/3108mmcvfinned.jpg

They use the CVs for various late model cars like the 5th gen Camaros.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/frankrehak/2011%20part%20pictures/carbonCVshaftclean.jpg

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Andrew,

Just read through most of this thread. It's neat to see the progression all right here lined out and easy to follow.

Knowing the overall story of your GTO since you first got it and we first became friends, I hafta say just how proud I am of you and how far you've come over the years!

Kudos to you my friend.

Talk to you soon.

Rory

Thank you Brother!!! I need to get my GTO back on the road and come visit you.

Andrew

[Motornoggin]

Thank you Brother!!! I need to get my GTO back on the road and come visit you.

Andrew

That would be great! You're always welcome my friend!