Taking the plunge: LS3 into a '64 Tempest [Archive] - PY Online Forums

b-man

10-04-2008, 07:43 PM

It's time for me to start planning my LS3 engine swap, the car I'm using for my project is my '64 Pontiac Tempest 'sleeper' that was powered by a mild 455 Tri-Power engine. I have owned a 2002 WS6 A4 convertible since new so I know just how great these LSX engines are, my 100% stock 5.7 T/A is 1/2 second quicker in the 1/4 than my 455 Tempest.

My Tempest is NOT a hard-core Pro-Touring car. Link to car details:http://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?25799-Grettings-from-So-Cal-Pontiac-owner.

I want to keep it low-key and continue the sleeper theme. The bench seat and column shifter will stay, with no changes to the stock dash/gauges. I already have oil pressure, trans and and water temp gauges under the dash, I'll add other gauges if needed. I won't need a tach, the trans will be programmed to shift before the engine redline. But if it seems like a good idea to add one, I will.

Having the power of a new '08 Corvette should make it a lot more fun. I won't add aftermarket engine dress-up items, add an engine cover, move the coil packs off the valve covers or anything like that.

Knocking a good 250 to 300 pounds off the front end with an all-aluminum V8 should do wonders for handling. Plus a new fuel-injected 6.2 engine should give me close to a 130 HP boost (hoping the stock LS3 with headers/2.5" mandrell-bent exhaust will be close to 460 HP) and reward me with close to double my current fuel mileage (9-10 city, 12-13 highway with 2.56 gears).

My low-compression (8.2:1) 335 HP 455 wasn't the most fuel-efficient engine, but it was dead-reliable and put together with all stock Pontiac parts. It easily yanked the 'ol Tempest (3780# without driver) into the high 13s in the 1/4 (13.899 @ 101.85), using 1st and 2nd gear only, I'm sure knocking off some weight and adding 130 HP will knock over a second off my ET.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC00839-1.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC00842-1.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC00848-1.jpg

I want to install a new LS3 430 HP crate engine, the only mod to the engine will be a set of headers and a tune. I want to keep it a reliable, smooth-running and fuel-efficient package, so no big cam or other mods. I plan on buying the wiring harness from GM that's made for the LS3 crate engine, unless there's a better or cheaper alternative.

I will be running an automatic trans of some kind, and it's very important that I keep the trans mounted in the stock location as I want to keep the factory column shifter and linkage. I don't want to run any conversion mounts that will jack up the engine/trans or move them forward or back from the stock location.

I'm hoping to find a combination of mostly stock GM accessory drives that will work with my plan of keeping the engine/trans in the stock location. Same thing goes for the oil pan and header selection. I'd prefer to run a factory pan of some kind (good luck, maybe the LH8?), but if I need an aftermarket pan of some sort to provide crossmember to pan as well as tie rod to pan clearance I'll buy one.

Right now the way the car is set up, I'm using a TH400 trans with the original ST300 2-speed auto shift linkage, the steering column and shifter detent have been modified (column slots lengthened for more travel, new low-gear detent step welded on) in order to select all 3 gears.

I'll either add a Gear Vendor OD to the existing TH400 (freshly rebuilt) with tight 10" Continental 3200 converter (also spankin' new) , or go with a 4L60E or possibly a 4L80E. Not sure if I want to deal with electronic auto trans control or not, but with the DBW LS3 engine it may be the best way to go.

Cruise control would be nice. I'll put the TH400/10" Continental in one of my other cars and go for a modern GM OD auto if that's the best route, hopefully without too much hammering on the trans tunnel. My column shift should be adaptable, I'll let the new 4L60E do all the shifting after I pop it into either Drive or OD with my lil' Granny column shifter.

Air conditioning is a must, a Vintage Air setup or whatever will be installed, so I'll need to accomodate an A/C compressor in the accessory drives.

I would like to run an in-tank fuel pump. Would any of the aftermarket Chevelle stainless steel tanks adapt to the Tempest/Lemans/GTO? I know the filler necks are different, perhaps the Tempest neck could be added to one. I can mod my stock tank if that would be a better way to go.

The rear end has been changed from th 2.56 open rear that was original to the car to a 3.36 posi. It is a factory 1966 GTO 8.2" 10-bolt so I hope it will hang in there a while if I don't thrash it too hard, this isn't a drag car with sticky tires so it should be okay.

Any help with putting together a shopping list for engine mounts, oil pan, accessory drives, headers (again keeping in mind the trans needs to stay put in the stock location) along with a fuel system and any electronics/wiring I'll need to buy would be greatly appreciated.

My apologies for the long-winded post, I tried not to leave anything out. :o

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/Tech/19171224.gif

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/1964Tempest003.jpg

b-man

10-04-2008, 08:22 PM

2008 "LS3" 6.2L V8, (new GM crate engines are selling for right around $6200 + $895 for the wiring harness/controller/drive by wire throttle pedal assy, not bad)

Type:......................................6.2L Gen IV V8
Displacement:...........................6162cc (376.0 ci)
Compression ratio:....................10.7:1
Valve configuration:..................2 valves/cylinder, 2.16" hollow-stem intake/1.60" exhaust
Rocker arms:..........................1.7:1 roller with 6mm offset intake rockers
Assembly site:........................St. Catharines, Ontario
Valve lifters: ..........................hydraulic roller
Camshaft:..............................(204/211 @ .050, .551"/.521" lift)
Firing order: ...........................1 - 8 - 7 - 2 - 6 - 5 - 4 - 3
Bore x stroke:.........................103.25 x 92mm (4.06" X 3.62")
Fuel system: ..........................sequential fuel injection
Fuel type:...............................premium fuel recommended
Bore Center:............................4.40" (111.76 mm)
Fuel shut off:..........................6600 rpm
Emissions controls:...................catalytic converter three-way catalyst positive crankcase ventilation

Applications: hp ( kw )/Torque ( Nm )
Chevrolet Corvette:
430(321kW) @ 5900 / 424(575Nm) @ 4600 SAE CERTIFIED

Chevrolet Corvette w/ Optional Exhaust:
436(325kW) @ 5900 / 428(580Nm) @ 4600 SAE CERTIFIED

Materials:
Block:......................cast aluminum
Cylinder head:...........cast aluminum (324/199 cfm intake/exhaust @ .550" lift) :eek:

Intake manifold: .......composite
Exhaust manifold:......cast nodular iron
Main bearing caps:.....powder metal
Crankshaft:..............cast iron with undercut and rolled fillets
Camshaft:................hollow steel
Connecting rods:.......forged powder metal

Old Blue 66

10-04-2008, 09:30 PM

Do you mind me asking where you get a 2008 Vette motor?? Just currious. Did it come out of a wrecked car or can you buy it from GM?

b-man

10-05-2008, 01:05 AM

Paul,

The LS3 is readily available as a brand-new crate engine from GM, they also sell a special wiring harness for engine swaps into older cars. :thumbup:

Link to an LS3 crate engine from Pace Performance, one of many sellers offering GM crate engines of all types:http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=228371

The LS3 was recently tested, along with 7 other GM crate engines in the October '08 issue of Hot Rod Magazine. The stock 430 HP LS3 with the addition of a set of headers ran 11.333 at 114.23 MPH in a race-prepped 3334# '69 Chevelle, running 4.44 gears and a high-stall 8" race torque converter and 10.5X28" slicks.

I can see it powering my car to easy mid-12s, just like the new 'vette road tests show. The Tempest should weigh right about 3500# without driver with the much lighter all-aluminum engine. I expect to be getting mileage numbers in the mid-teens in the city and low to mid 20s on the highway with a 4-speed auto OD trans, the more aerodynamic '08 Corvette (around 3300#) is EPA rated 16/26 city/highway MPG.

TheMonkey

10-05-2008, 01:48 AM

Bart-

Very very cool. This build just went to the top of my list of 'builds to watch'....

Not sure I have much help to offer right now except for some encouragement. BTW... I like the idea of the 4L80E.

Scott.

mzbk2l

10-05-2008, 01:49 AM

Sounds like a fun project! I assume you followed Andrew's '70 build?

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=553683

I've enjoyed watching that one come together.

b-man

10-05-2008, 02:29 AM

Thanks guys, this project is still in the initial planning stage right now.

I think the direction I'm heading in is going to work out pretty well. I really want to have most of the parts sitting here before I buy the engine (24-month warranty), I need to get all of my ducks in a row before starting to turn the wrenches.

Still not sure if a takeout LS3 engine from a wrecked low-miles 'vette would be better for me, it would at least have all the accessories intact and other various pieces I can use for the swap. I'm open to any good options at this point.

I have followed Andrew's very impressive build and I'm hoping he'll chime in and help to steer me in the right direction. I have posted a copy of this thread on the LS1tech.com and Pro-Touring.com forums since I'm looking as much helpful input as I can gather.

6 Grrrs

10-05-2008, 02:39 AM

Sounds like a fun project! I assume you followed Andrew's '70 build?

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=553683

I've enjoyed watching that one come together.

x2. Look thru Andrew's thread for alot of LSx/GTO info.

Bart - I don't thnk you will have an issue with mounting the LSx in the stock location. I put an LSx/4L60e into a 1990 Chevy truck (same truck as mine - 454SS), using the original big block mounts & stock rear tranny Xmember (TH400 was original in 1990 454SS trucks). There are many suppliers making the offset brackets to mount small/big block Chevy mounts to the LSx block. You will need chevy frame mounts to make this work (different than Pontiac. I used a S & P accessory drive to raise the A/C compressor. It was a nice kit, but very expensive. Supposedly you can use a stock truck LSx setup with little work. I did this swap about 4-5 years ago & very little was avaiilable for the LSx swaps back then. The stock Camaro oil pan was on the motor & it fit the xmember great. The 1988-1998 C/K 2wd trucks have a similar xmember to the A bodies. Not sure if this will work or not.

As for the in tank pump, I used AN fittings on my truck with a bosch pump in the tank. I just bent some hard line & got an AN fitting that adapts from the steel line to the AN -6. Then I soldered the hard line into the stock sending unit. The chevy truck came with an in tank pump originally, but it was a low pressure pump. My Accel DFI came with the bosch pump & it was about 3 times larger than the stock pump.

I would think you should be able to fab up a setup to use the stock GM pump in an original style sending unit. I think the LS3 uses a returnless system, so you really only need one line run to the front. I had the fuel rail modified to be a return style & used the original GM return line in this truck swap. Of course the feed line needed upgraded for the higher pressure (TBI is 6-9 psi, LSx is 45+ psi).

Just my .02. Good luck with the project.

performerrpm

10-05-2008, 03:33 AM

well it looks like that thread about the wrecked gtos was the straw that broke the camels back. should be nice though. as cleanly detailed as all the pictures of the mechanical aspects of your cars ive seen on here show iam sure youll be able to make it look like it belongs there. good luck

andrewb70

10-05-2008, 11:45 PM

gto65lvr

10-10-2008, 07:01 PM

BRP? makes conversion mounts and rear x member for the swap with the 4l60 it seems there is not tunnel work needed on the 64-67

The engine mounts he makes allow you to use the F body engine as a take out and not have to notch frames or the like and puts you with the proper drivelline angle

489 bucks for the setup.

Although from what I read it keeps adding up with the trans tail shaft conversion for mech. speedo if you want it and so on and so on.

I have been looking recently I picked up an LS1 and 4l60 for my 37 ford but am thinking very hard about putting it in my 65 tempest wagon would make a very nice fuel efficient fast driver over my 4sp and ram air 3 cammed 400 at 10.25:1 engine.

Plus the weight savings will really change the handling characteristics something fierce

gto65lvr

10-11-2008, 04:46 PM

LOL ya know I wanted a pontiac motor and built an IA2 for a serious engine but to do it all over again I would get a stroker LS or LS7 minor beefing up and go way more miles to gallon, injected and doctile compared to a similar HP POntiac based motor.

But hey I like my IA2 too.

YOu won't ruin the tempest hey it is all bolt in anyway.

b-man

10-11-2008, 05:25 PM

Sorry that I am a little late to the party. Looks like you have a well detailed plan. One thing I should mention is that the GM Performance harness and ECU combo, like I am using, does not support automatic transmissions. It is a manual trans only harness. If you are going with an automatic, I would suggest getting in touch with Speartech. If you want to use the GM harness and explore other options, there are a few good ones. My favorite would be to contact Twist Machine, and get one of their programmable ECUs.

I would go with the stock Corvette accessories. Notch the frame for the A/C compressor. Use Edelbrock adapter plates, as they will mount the bellhousing in exactly the same position as before. Edelbrock also makes nice headers for your application.

I am using an LS7 cam and my combo made 418RWHP. So I would definitely recommend some kind of cam swap. Even a super mild cam will get you an extra 30-40 HP without sounding like it has any kind of non-stock cam.

If you have any specific questions, please do not hesitate to ask.

AndrewAndrew,

Thanks for the helping me get things started here, you've given me some very important bits of specific engine mounting and header application info that I really appreciate.

I have four questions for now, more to come later I'm sure.

1.) What is the part # for the LS7 cam?

I'm all for running OEM stuff in this engine rather than aftermarket for longevity's sake. LS7 427 cam specs: Duration @ .050 211/230,.593/.588 lift with 1.8:1 rockers, lift will be reduced to .560/.555 with stock LS3 1.7:1 rockers (fine by me).

2.) Exactly what rubber (or urethane?) engine mounts/OEM steel frame mounts do I need to make the Edelbrock (P/N 6701) adapter plates work? Link to adapter plates:http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntt=+EDL-6701+&searchinresults=false&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&N=700+4294923429+400065+4294839039+4294918680+4294 799365+115&x=23&y=11

I assume I'll need to source some Chevelle pieces here. I've done some searching/reading on a couple of different sites and I see different combinations of wide/narrow/short/tall Chevelle engine mounts and frame mounts mentioned for the A-body swaps. Which direction do I need to go here?

3.) How much ground clearance do the Edelbrock (P/N 65073) LSX swap headers offer? How far do they hang below the frame rail on your car Andrew? Link to headers:http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=EDL%2D65073&N=700+4294923429+400065+4294839039+4294918680+4294 799365+115&autoview=sku

4.) Which oil pans will work with the engine in this mounting position, either factory or aftermarket?

I noticed while reading through your thread that you bought an aftermarket pan from Autokraft for your '70. Since buying that pan have you learned anything more about other pan options for the A-body cars?

I am really leaning towards running an un-modified factory pan. I know my car won't have the cornering ability to require anything more than a factory pan. I'd like to retain any additional bottom end reinforcement the thick cast aluminum pan has to offer, even though that added stiffness may be more sales hype than fact. Also trying to keep costs in check here, I really don't want to spend $400-$600 on an aftermarket pan and possibly relocate the oil filter.

The Corvette pan that the LS3 engine comes with is supposed to be fairly compact, but I'm considering the GM factory LH8 pan which is even more compact and supposed to be a good fit for early GM F & A-body LSX conversions (2008 Hummer H3 Alpha pan w/gasket & bolts: P/N 12614821, pickup/screen: P/N 12608593). P/N 19212593 is for the kit that includes the pan, pump pick up, dipstick, hardware, gaskets, and windage tray http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=245308.

I've seen a picture of the LH8 pan in a '64 Lemans with a BRP mounting kit but I'm not sure if the engine is mounted in close to the same location as mine will be. It looks to sit a bit higher with the BRP kit than I want mine to sit, not sure. The engine mounts look tall, and it appears the engine is sitting high to help the accessory drives clear the frame/steering components with minimal cutting/grinding. Link to thread with pics:http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43481 The LH8 pan looks to hang about 1" below the crossmember, not a big issue as I'm assuming the Edelbrock headers will hang about that far below the bottom of the frame rail as well.

Thanks again to you and to everyone else here who have taken the time to help me with their constructive input. :cool:

So far it looks like the Edelbrock engine mounting plates and headers will be on order pretty soon, still up in the air on the oil pan and exactly what OEM engine mounts I'll need.

Bart

Keith Seymore

10-13-2008, 01:57 PM

Bart -

I was at Memphis this weekend for the NMCA meet and one of the manufacturers on the midway specialized in GM LSX motor transplants in various vintage musclecars. The car they had on display was an old rotted '64 Lemans hardtop with a LS motor installed.

I grabbed some business cards:

Muscle Rods
GM LSX Conversion Kit specialists
Shawn Henderson
Marketing and Sales
Office 770-751-0687
Direct line 678-873-0847
www.MuscleRods.com

Muscle Rods
GM LSX Conversion Kit specialists
Bart Johnson
Shop Manager
Office 770-751-0687
Direct line 678-446-0653
www.MuscleRods.com

Muscle Rods
GM LSX Conversion Kit specialists
Phil Brewer
Owner
Office 770-751-0687
Direct line 678-457-0987
www.MuscleRods.com

There also was a company that did accesory drive bracketry.

They were

Kwik Performance
1146 W. Pheasant Run St
Springfield MO 65810
417-955-1467
www.kwikperf.com

Colin Frolick

10-13-2008, 05:21 PM

there's also ATS, didn't see them mentioned yet, they make motor mounts, oil pans, etc. www.t56kit.com

and i'll second upgrading just the cam in a new LS3 probably gains 30-40hp

b-man

10-14-2008, 11:45 PM

Keith,

Thanks for the links, both are now bookmarked. I saw the crusty '64 Lemans on the Pro-Touring.com site, I linked to a thread showing their kit in my post above. Still not sure if their kit puts the engine and trans in the right position to suit me. :confused:

Colin,

Thanks for the link to ATS, I'll explore their site.

A cam swap is the best bang for the buck next to headers, it would be nice to be approaching 500 flywheel HP and still be able to get 20+ MPG on the open road. Those 320-330 cfm heads will really wake up with some more cam.:)

gearhead78

10-15-2008, 12:25 AM

Watching this thread. My 64 will probably get some sort of LS motor

Mr_GTO

10-15-2008, 10:23 AM

Great thread...thinking about doing this for my '66 GTO as well. DOCUMENT EVERYTHING...I need all the help I can get. LOL

gto65lvr

10-15-2008, 01:11 PM

It is a no brainer and I think I will end up putting my LS1 in my 65 wagon next spring we will see how finances go.

i will use the BRP set up most cost effective. Although I am starting to really like shifting gears in my wagon and would almost hate to put the 4l60e in it. just dont have the money for the extra $$ to find a 6 sp. and the 4sp would not give me the overdrive that I am wanting. hmmm

jsn829

10-15-2008, 09:31 PM

Working on the same project for my 70 gto. If I use the new auto trans, I wonder how the speedo will work?? I have a 200r4 (built) that I also could use. The mpg will be great.

b-man

10-15-2008, 11:25 PM

Working on the same project for my 70 gto. If I use the new auto trans, I wonder how the speedo will work?? I have a 200r4 (built) that I also could use. The mpg will be great.I was doing some research and saw there is a conversion tail housing offered for the 4L60E trans to run a speedo cable:http://jagsthatrun.com/4L60_Order.html

I contacted a trans builder that I know who sponsors the Pontiac Drag Days bracket racing series out here, Hubbe's Performance http://www.hubbes.com/. Hubbe says he can set me up with a 4L65E (stronger version of the 4L60E) and a torque converter for around 2K. I'll see if the 4L60E tailhousing/cable driven speedo conversion will fit the 4L65E and if so, I'll have that included with my trans build.

Still busy doing my research, when I'm more certain about what parts I need then I'll start ordering things.

70 Lemans

10-16-2008, 10:07 AM

What is the estimated cost of such a transplant? Certainly not planning a project but I’m curious as I’m sure others are too. $10’000 $15”000 Soup to Nuts.

b-man

10-16-2008, 09:30 PM

Hoping I don't spend much more than 12K.

The new LS3 crate engine is half the 12K cost if I go that direction, rather than find a low-miles engine from a wrecked 'vette.

It's very easy to spend over 10K for any good street V8 that makes 450+HP along with a good overdrive trans that will handle some power. Exhaust, cooling and fuel system go along with that too.

Rough numbers:

New LS3 crate engine - $6200 (Very easy to spend this much building a top-notch street engine of any brand)

Engine wiring harness, new GM - $900

Complete set of Corvette accessory drives - $800 (aftermarket serpentine belt setups easily cost this much or more)

Vintage Air A/C setup - $1000

Headers - $600

Engine mounts - $150

4L65E trans and converter/Lokar dipstick tube/B&M trans cooler - $2200

Driveshaft - $150

Fuel system (aftermarket stainless fuel tank with internal EFI pump) - $600

Radiator (universal aluminum crossflow) - $200

Cooling fans (4th gen F-body or?) - $150 to $200

That's 13k already.

Whatever it takes, this hobby does cost some money to pursue as we all know. :usa2:

b-man

10-20-2008, 10:44 PM

Found out about a company who makes EFI-ready steel fuel tanks for our older cars, Spectra Premium Industries Inc. located in Canada.

I saw one on Rock Auto for $451.99 plus $75.96 shipping. Still looking around for the best price on it.

Specs on the part # GM37FFI tank/pump combo I'm going to purchase. The pump will reportedly handle up to 550 HP, I'm only planning on having about 450-460 HP:

US Gallon : 20
Liter : 76
Size : 37 1/4" x 30" x 6 3/4"
Strap Set : ST48; SSST48
Comments : W/O VENT PIPE; INCLUDES SENDER ASSEMBLY WITH STOCK-CAPACITY FUEL PUMP 85-115 PSI / 50-60 GPH; (0-95 OHMS); (45° FLARED FITTINGS (SAE) / THREADS 3/8 - 24)
Kit No : LO01
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/LSX%20swap%20pics/m_gm37ffi.jpg

gto65lvr

10-21-2008, 07:02 PM

Neat I know spectra made regular tanks but not these very cool and cheaper than the fabbed out tanks very very cool and smart stinking.

By the time you do it your conversion will be a breeze to perform

ponjohn

10-21-2008, 08:32 PM

Bman- you might to consider a FAST computer with a speartech harness. I believe they can control autos AND give yo user friendly tune-ability.

I plan on doing this to a 69 GTO. you can not beat the power, fuel economy and size. It is hard to overlook the modern ammenitites like cruise, a/c and heat when doing it a complete retro.

b-man

10-21-2008, 10:25 PM

I see Speartech mentioned a couple of times here, I'll see what they have to offer and likely go with their product.

Going to look into purchasing the fuel tank/pump assembly tomorrow, I have another lead on where to buy the SPI tank.

Also going to contact my trans guy (Hubbe) and try to firm up a final price and delivery time on the 4L65E with lockup converter.

I might have to upgrade my exhaust, my current 2-1/2" Dynomax Super Turbo mufflers are only rated for a tad less than 400 HP before they start to restrict the power. New mufflers may be in the cards, or perhaps an entirely new 3" exhaust.

Gotta get this thing going.:old:

Chief Wanabee

10-22-2008, 03:56 PM

B-man- cool project. Might want to jump on getting that fuel tank asap - Cdn dollar has dropped a huge amount against USD in the last month or so.

andrewb70

10-22-2008, 08:49 PM

Andrew,

..........

1.) What is the part # for the LS7 cam?

I'm all for running OEM stuff in this engine rather than aftermarket for longevity's sake. LS7 427 cam specs: Duration @ .050 211/230,.593/.588 lift with 1.8:1 rockers, lift will be reduced to .560/.555 with stock LS3 1.7:1 rockers (fine by me).

2.) Exactly what rubber (or urethane?) engine mounts/OEM steel frame mounts do I need to make the Edelbrock (P/N 6701) adapter plates work? Link to adapter plates:http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntt=+EDL-6701+&searchinresults=false&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&N=700+4294923429+400065+4294839039+4294918680+4294 799365+115&x=23&y=11

I assume I'll need to source some Chevelle pieces here. I've done some searching/reading on a couple of different sites and I see different combinations of wide/narrow/short/tall Chevelle engine mounts and frame mounts mentioned for the A-body swaps. Which direction do I need to go here?

3.) How much ground clearance do the Edelbrock (P/N 65073) LSX swap headers offer? How far do they hang below the frame rail on your car Andrew? Link to headers:http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=EDL%2D65073&N=700+4294923429+400065+4294839039+4294918680+4294 799365+115&autoview=sku (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=EDL%2D65073&N=700+4294923429+400065+4294839039+4294918680+4294 799365+115&autoview=sku)

4.) Which oil pans will work with the engine in this mounting position, either factory or aftermarket?

I noticed while reading through your thread that you bought an aftermarket pan from Autokraft for your '70. Since buying that pan have you learned anything more about other pan options for the A-body cars?

I am really leaning towards running an un-modified factory pan. I know my car won't have the cornering ability to require anything more than a factory pan. I'd like to retain any additional bottom end reinforcement the thick cast aluminum pan has to offer, even though that added stiffness may be more sales hype than fact. Also trying to keep costs in check here, I really don't want to spend $400-$600 on an aftermarket pan and possibly relocate the oil filter.

The Corvette pan that the LS3 engine comes with is supposed to be fairly compact, but I'm considering the GM factory LH8 pan which is even more compact and supposed to be a good fit for early GM F & A-body LSX conversions (2008 Hummer H3 Alpha pan w/gasket & bolts: P/N 12614821, pickup/screen: P/N 12608593). P/N 19212593 is for the kit that includes the pan, pump pick up, dipstick, hardware, gaskets, and windage tray http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=245308.

I've seen a picture of the LH8 pan in a '64 Lemans with a BRP mounting kit but I'm not sure if the engine is mounted in close to the same location as mine will be. It looks to sit a bit higher with the BRP kit than I want mine to sit, not sure. The engine mounts look tall, and it appears the engine is sitting high to help the accessory drives clear the frame/steering components with minimal cutting/grinding. Link to thread with pics:http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43481 The LH8 pan looks to hang about 1" below the crossmember, not a big issue as I'm assuming the Edelbrock headers will hang about that far below the bottom of the frame rail as well.

Thanks again to you and to everyone else here who have taken the time to help me with their constructive input. :cool:

So far it looks like the Edelbrock engine mounting plates and headers will be on order pretty soon, still up in the air on the oil pan and exactly what OEM engine mounts I'll need.

Bart

Bart,

I am sorry for the late response, but let me see if I can tackle some of your questions.

1. No clue. LOL. I got mine from Jeff Schwartz. Give him a call. I think he has a couple of new, take out, LS7 cams sitting around that were taken out of new crate engines. http://www.schwartzperformance.com/

2. Used the exact same parts that I had with the BBC. I have reproduction Chevelle big block frame stands and Energy Suspension, tall/narrow poly mounts.

3. I haven't measured the ground clearance, but the Edelbrock headers tuck up nicely. I can take a measurement if this is critical. I will say that they are the best fitting headers I have ever owned.

4. For me, the only option was the Autokraft pan. From everything that I have read, non of the OEM pans will work the the Edelbrock mounts. I needed to use the Edelbrock mounts because their engineer claimed that their mounts will position my bellhousing in the exact same location as it was with my BBC. This was critical for me since I did not change the transmission. My shifter needed to be in the same location as before. As it turned out, Edelbrock designed the mounts as promised and my shifter is in exactly the same location as before. I asked if I can use the CTSV pan, but the Edelbrock engineer told me I could not and sent me pictures that showed where the pan hit. Believe me, they really wanted an OEM pan to work, but as it stands none do. So with that I got the Autokraft pan because it is the only steel pan that retains the oil filter in the stock location. That was the critical feature for me. I would never use the LH8 pan. It hangs 2 inches below the front crossmember. That just looks hideous.

If you don't mind moving the engine back I have seen swaps that use the 4th gen F-body pans. Keep in mind that moving the engine back can present problems with the heads hitting the firewall if you ever have to swap transmission. When the seal in my hydraulic TOB blew I had to pull the trans. With the engine in the stock location I was able to really tip the transmission down and service it without an issues. I can see if the engine was further back the heads might hit the firewall.

I hope that helps.

Andrew

Northern Goat

10-22-2008, 09:10 PM

B-Man
I am doing an LS2/T56 swap into my 71 Bird. Here is my 0.02

ATS - I ordered their clutch master and bracket. Not cheap, but awesome products. I think he is one man show so communincation is poor.

BRP (Muscle Rods)- I purchased their header and they are amazing. A true bolt in. Shawn is a great guy to deal with, very knowledgable and helpful. They are doing a LS into a 64 Tempest as well.

Howell Industries - Modified the stock wiring harness for my swap. No issues with them.

I got the Spectre gas tank within a week and it fit great.

I can only tell you how all the pieces fit as the car is still in the body shop, but I can tell you everything went together well.

gto65lvr

10-23-2008, 02:00 PM

This is great no nonsense straight up info love it keep it coming everything major has just about been addressed. Very good to know about the E swap brakets and having the trans in the proper position.

Still curious about the BRP engine mount swap about the location. Also the LH8 pan versus the other steel pan in relation to ground clearance. I agree i would not like it so low past the front x member.

I have a funny feeling I will be doing an LS swap in my future onto one of my A bodys.

b-man

10-23-2008, 09:42 PM

Andrew, do you know the part # or what year/engine application the Corvette fuel filter/regulator that you used is for so I can order one?

Also, would you have any part #'s handy for your reproduction Chevelle big block frame stands and Energy Suspension, tall/narrow poly mounts? The same for your Autokraft pan?

I would also really appreciate a couple of header measurements when you have some time:

1) From the bottom of the lowermost header tubes to the bottom of the framerail, how far they hang below the frame. A ground clearance measurement on your car won't be useful.

2) From the bellhousing to engine interface (where the engine and bellhousing bolt together) to the end of the header collector. This will help me see if there will be any header collector interference with my column shift linkage.

I posted in a thread on the Pro-Touring forums http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48410 a couple of days ago asking Phil at BRP MuscleRods about the location of the engine/trans using their mounts & heads, no response yet. I have a feeling their stuff doesn't mount the engine where I want it.:( Also not sure if their headers are 409 stainless like the Edelbrock ones.

That's fine, because now I know the Edelbrock stuff will work along with the Autokraft pan. Just trying to look at different options.

Thanks again to everyone chiming in with useful info.:cool:

andrewb70

10-24-2008, 12:46 AM

Ordered my SPI fuel tank, my lead could only come in a few dollars under my best price so far (Rock Auto), so I decided to place my order while I was on the phone.

Andrew, do you know the part # or what year/engine application the Corvette fuel filter/regulator that you used is for so I can order one?

Also, would you have any part #'s handy for your reproduction Chevelle big block frame stands and Energy Suspension, tall/narrow poly mounts? The same for your Autokraft pan?

I would also really appreciate a couple of header measurements when you have some time:

1) From the bottom of the lowermost header tubes to the bottom of the framerail, how far they hang below the frame. A ground clearance measurement on your car won't be useful.

2) From the bellhousing to engine interface (where the engine and bellhousing bolt together) to the end of the header collector. This will help me see if there will be any header collector interference with my column shift linkage.

I posted in a thread on the Pro-Touring forums http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48410 a couple of days ago asking Phil at BRP MuscleRods about the location of the engine/trans using their mounts & heads, no response yet. I have a feeling their stuff doesn't mount the engine where I want it.:( Also not sure if their headers are 409 stainless like the Edelbrock ones.

That's fine, because now I know the Edelbrock stuff will work along with the Autokraft pan. Just trying to look at different options.

Thanks again to everyone chiming in with useful info.:cool:

Corvette filter/regulator combo ACDELCO Part # GF822 1999-2003 Corvette

Chevelle frame stands Year One Part # FM36

Energy Suspension engine mounts: http://www.energysuspension.com/pages/mt_tr1.html

Autokraft Oilpan: http://www.autokraft.org/products/

Give me a few days and I will get you the header measurements.

Andrew

b-man

10-24-2008, 10:50 AM

Corvette filter/regulator combo ACDELCO Part # GF822 1999-2003 Corvette

Chevelle frame stands Year One Part # FM36

Energy Suspension engine mounts: http://www.energysuspension.com/pages/mt_tr1.html

Autokraft Oilpan: http://www.autokraft.org/products/

Give me a few days and I will get you the header measurements.

AndrewThanks Andrew.

Just ordered the SPI tank and GF822 filter/regulator from Rock Auto (got a 5% discount using their current discount code 831778737458, this code expires December 21st).

Ordered the Autokraft oilpan and FM36 Chevelle frame stands too.

I'll order the Edelbrock headers and mount adapters along with the 3.117G Energy Suspension urethane mounts (tall/narrow) from Summit Racing after I see the results of the header measurements. The Edelbrock headers don't look overly long for a long-tube header, seems like they would be good to clear my ol' Granny column shift linkage.;)

After I get all of these items delivered I'll order the new LS3 engine with Corvette accessories and get my 4L65E trans built up.

Trying to keep moving forward.

Skip Fix

10-24-2008, 06:32 PM

After driving my wife's 02 Avalanche and it's 5.3 and my 04 GTO with just an LS1 I to am impressed with these motors, broad torque curve also.

Sounds like a neat deal!

Larry Navarro

10-25-2008, 01:37 PM

yeah Skip, my '07 sliverado has the 5.3 with "torque management". Gm's solution to busting up driveline components. It's a turd performance wise.
My old '96 vortec had better response.

440GP69

10-25-2008, 02:30 PM

my 06 silvy doesn't have it and Mine flies for a truck!

78 GHOST

10-26-2008, 11:41 PM

b-man

10-27-2008, 12:13 AM

I'm a little late to this party, but..

wouldn't a dry sump solve a lot of problems (at a large cost.)

I noticed the LS7 available for around $13K. All the dry sump crap adds another $2000+. You'd be well past your budget, but 505 HP would be really kewl.

Nice project Bart!The LS7 is over twice the cost of the LS3 as you know. Both use the same heads, with the LS7 having them CNC ported for about another 20 cfm of flow along with some lighter valves.

The Autokraft oil pan already has road race baffling built right in, and the sump shape solves any engine to chassis fitment problem. Done deal, I'm already signed up. No way will my Tempest corner hard enough to need the dry sump oiling system, not that I wouldn't want it.:)

It's pretty easy to add another 75 to 100 HP to the LS3, it could be done for a grand or two. A set of headers brings it right up to 450-460 HP, keeping the mild (fuel efficient) stock 204/211 cam. The LS3 is simply the performance bargain of the decade in my eyes.

$6200 buys you an all-aluminum V8 engine (about 430 pounds total weight I'm pretty sure) with port EFI, big-time head airflow, a hydraulic roller cam and rockers, a lightweight heat-rejecting tuned intake, and more. You couldn't even purchase a bare aluminum aftermarket Pontiac block for the entire price of this engine.

It's all economics, I'll be getting the biggest bang for my performance dollar here. The engine makes great power, and is far lighter than any aluminum-headed iron-block Pontiac engine. Makes the car handle, a must-have for me.

Pulled the Tempest out of the garage after spending half the weekend cleaning up and making some room to work, it's on.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02169.jpg

Lemans64

10-27-2008, 01:12 AM

78 GHOST

10-27-2008, 10:49 AM

Bart, doesn't this engine come with a 2 year 24,000 mile warranty? Frankly I think this is one of the coolest ideas in a long time.

andrewb70

10-27-2008, 09:29 PM

b-man

10-27-2008, 09:34 PM

Are u gonna change out the front springs or just cut a coil, the weight diff of the engine should make it sit high?? I used the stock replacements in mine, but have SBC and had to cut 1 coil off to get the upper control arms off the rubber stops. just another though for the process. LOL.

RickI already have another set of Global West front springs that have been cut down, I'll put them in to replace the H-O Racing springs that are in there now. I'll almost certainly need to trim them down even more.

Bart, doesn't this engine come with a 2 year 24,000 mile warranty? Frankly I think this is one of the coolest ideas in a long time.

The LS3 crate engine does come with a 24 month warranty.:cool:

Just to clarify, the LS7 heads and the LS3 heads are different. Some noticeable differences are valve angle, and intake port shape. The LS7 heads also use huge 2.25" titanium intake valves and 1.8:1 rockers, compared to the LS3/L92 2.16" intake and 1.7:1 rockers.

AndrewGuess I was confusing the LS3 heads with the L92 heads.:confused:

Man, is that LS7 ever something special!

I'm still learning.:usa2:

Get a chance to measure your headers yet? :)

andrewb70

10-27-2008, 10:01 PM

......

Get a chance to measure your headers yet? :)

Here you go. From the frame rail to the bottom of the header is about 2.25" on the driver's side. From the bellhousing to the end of the collector it is about 12", again on the driver's side.

You should also give Jeff Schwartz a call. I talked to him a couple of days ago and he has some LS7 cams for sale.

Andrew

b-man

10-28-2008, 01:23 AM

Here you go. From the frame rail to the bottom of the header is about 2.25" on the driver's side. From the bellhousing to the end of the collector it is about 12", again on the driver's side.

You should also give Jeff Schwartz a call. I talked to him a couple of days ago and he has some LS7 cams for sale.

AndrewThanks.

Just now ordered my Edelbrock headers and engine mount adapters, Energy Suspension urethane mounts and Griffin universal 24" X 19" aluminum crossflow radiator.

I'll get in touch with Jeff and see how much he wants for the LS7 cam.

Bart

andrewb70

10-28-2008, 09:54 AM

I already have another set of Global West front springs that have been cut down, I'll put them to replace the H-O Racing springs that are in there now. I'll almost certainly need to trim them down even more.

.......

What's wrong with the H-O springs that you already have? As I recall they have a rate of 450lb/inch. Should be perfect. You may have to trim them, but the rate should be good.

Andrew

ponjohn

10-28-2008, 10:14 AM

b-man- Hotrod put a stock LS7 into a 70 Chevelle. It went 10.80's at 12x.xx mph. It is a SICK bullet.

TheMonkey

10-28-2008, 05:24 PM

b-man- Hotrod put a stock LS7 into a 70 Chevelle. It went 10.80's at 12x.xx mph. It is a SICK bullet.

i'm not sure anyone would say that the LS7 is anything but a phenom. sick sick sick.

if you are talking about the recent HRM article where they thrashed through a bunch of GM crate motors through the yellow '69 chevelle? IIRC, they made a specific comment about the LS3 only 75 less horsepower than LS7 for half the price. ...would make that last 75 hp cost about $6,500.

ponjohn

10-28-2008, 07:25 PM

i'm not sure anyone would say that the LS7 is anything but a phenom. sick sick sick.

if you are talking about the recent HRM article where they thrashed through a bunch of GM crate motors through the yellow '69 chevelle? IIRC, they made a specific comment about the LS3 only 75 less horsepower than LS7 for half the price. ...would make that last 75 hp cost about $6,500.

Yes that is the article. I am not saying B-man SHOULD use the ls7, just saying it is a very impressive piece.

andrewb70

10-28-2008, 07:40 PM

.....would make that last 75 hp cost about $6,500....

Micro economic theory. See Law of Diminishing returns. Also see marginal benefit vs. marginal cost analysis. Sorry I couldn't help it. We are going over all that stuff in a couple of my MBA classes. LOL

Andrew

b-man

10-28-2008, 11:53 PM

What's wrong with the H-O springs that you already have? As I recall they have a rate of 450lb/inch. Should be perfect. You may have to trim them, but the rate should be good.

Andrew
Figured I might try the set here that's already been cut first. The H-O springs are still fine.

Bart

i'm not sure anyone would say that the LS7 is anything but a phenom. sick sick sick.

if you are talking about the recent HRM article where they thrashed through a bunch of GM crate motors through the yellow '69 chevelle? IIRC, they made a specific comment about the LS3 only 75 less horsepower than LS7 for half the price. ...would make that last 75 hp cost about $6,500.I saw that artice and it convinced me to get started. The LSX engine family is pretty much the cream of emissions-friendly and fuel-efficient V8 street performance engines. The fact that the all-aluminum versions are easily 1/3 lighter than most any iron V8 is just the icing on the cake.

The 505 HP 7.0 LS7-powered Z06 'vette is rated at 14/24 city/highway, the standard 430/436 HP 6.2 LS3 'vette is rated 16/26.

Pretty incredible, 11 and 12-second cars that can get such good fuel economy.

Even the lowly 325 HP 5.7 LS1 in my '02 WS6 automatic runs mid to low 13s without even trying hard. It's bone stock, all the way down to the cast iron exhaust manifolds, 2-1/4" headpipes off the cats joining into a 2-3/4" single exhaust pipe. Regularly gets 18 in the city, 26-27 highway.

Karch

10-29-2008, 03:09 AM

Hi Bart,

First, please excuse me as I have not read the entire thread, but wanted to offer a few points.

I am good friends with West Coast Cylinder Heads in Reseda, and as such, I have been hearing nothing but great things about these LS motors.

Well, earlier this year, I broke down and bought a Trailblazer SS with the LS2/4L70e.

As such, and being such a research junky, I have learned quite a bit, and gathered some things that may help you.

My SUV is about 4800 lbs with driver, has 4.10 gears, and the LS2. These factors are rough on the transmission, as you would probably guess. My Trailblazer brothers, some of which are going pretty fast (low 10's), are beating up their transmissions fairly often.

As such, there are a few names that they all swear by in the transmission circles, and I would be happy to PM you the names or posts that discuss them.

I purchased HP Tuners software, as I hope to play with this more at a later date, but also got a mail order tune from one of the Trailblazer SS (TBSS) guru's, which I have been quite happy with.
Basically, the ecu uses 2 credits on HP Tuners.

Since I have the HP Tuners, and 6 credits left, I am thinking about grabbing one of the new GM LS conversion kits and implementing that onto my '65 455 instead of Megasquirt, but that's another story.

Another point I have realized and been told is the LS2/LS3's really wake up with cam changes, but the LS3 are really sensitive to nuances in the cam...off just a bit and it really loses on the low end.

Anyways, if I can be of assistance, feel free to ask. I don't have a lot of first hand knowledge, but I've been reading countless hours, and being an engineer, I take it from a practical standpoint...not intersted in peak numbers as much as efficiencies while still maintaining driveability.

Good luck.

JC455

10-29-2008, 12:57 PM

Hey Bart,
A couple of random thoughts...
1) You can get an upgraded LS3 w/ the GM HOT cam for just a little more money than the stock LS3.
2) Nevermind- you already got an oil pan.

455HOGT37

10-29-2008, 04:41 PM

Just to clarify, the LS7 heads and the LS3 heads are different. Some noticeable differences are valve angle, and intake port shape. The LS7 heads also use huge 2.25" titanium intake valves and 1.8:1 rockers, compared to the LS3/L92 2.16" intake and 1.7:1 rockers.

Andrew

Good thread! I'm planning on doing the swap into my 68 ElCo, but I'm using the 5.3 and trans that is currently driving my Yukon around.

As to the LS3 vs LS7 heads, certainly the port shape is different. I just replaced the exhaust on my 08 LS3 Corvette with the commplete Z06 system. The "Z" manifolds are round port, while the LS3 is D port. Same spacing of course, so it bolts up fine.

As for fuel tanks, I have heard that the late Caprices (the rear drive, "bubble" style) have a in tank, plastic unit that is almost a direct bolt in to the old A bodies. Might want to check that one out.

Karch

10-29-2008, 04:57 PM

I have one of these tanks, and 2 different p/u units. One is setup for in-tank efi, the other to suction out of for either external efi or carb.

Walbro makes a very good, affordable, pump that should support about 600 hp, normally aspirated.

b-man

10-29-2008, 10:15 PM

Hi Bart,

<snip> Well, earlier this year, I broke down and bought a Trailblazer SS with the LS2/4L70e.

As such, and being such a research junky, I have learned quite a bit, and gathered some things that may help you.

My SUV is about 4800 lbs with driver, has 4.10 gears, and the LS2. These factors are rough on the transmission, as you would probably guess. My Trailblazer brothers, some of which are going pretty fast (low 10's), are beating up their transmissions fairly often.

As such, there are a few names that they all swear by in the transmission circles, and I would be happy to PM you the names or posts that discuss them.

I purchased HP Tuners software, as I hope to play with this more at a later date, but also got a mail order tune from one of the Trailblazer SS (TBSS) guru's, which I have been quite happy with.
Basically, the ecu uses 2 credits on HP Tuners.

Since I have the HP Tuners, and 6 credits left, I am thinking about grabbing one of the new GM LS conversion kits and implementing that onto my '65 455 instead of Megasquirt, but that's another story.

Another point I have realized and been told is the LS2/LS3's really wake up with cam changes, but the LS3 are really sensitive to nuances in the cam...off just a bit and it really loses on the low end.

Anyways, if I can be of assistance, feel free to ask. I don't have a lot of first hand knowledge, but I've been reading countless hours, and being an engineer, I take it from a practical standpoint...not intersted in peak numbers as much as efficiencies while still maintaining driveability.

Good luck.You can either PM me on your transmission contacts or post the links here, any help is much appreciated. I certainly want a strong transmission that will handle a good beating on occasion.

I want to be able to keep some sort of lockup converter, but I've heard they can fail from high-performance use, any comments?

There's a good chance I'll leave the stock LS3 cam in there. I want this engine to run well down low in the RPM range for good gas mileage, that's half the reason I'm doing this swap. Where I live the main roads are 50 MPH, 1600 RPMs at 50 MPH will be where I'm running a lot. I'm also considering warranty issues here, I doubt the warranty would stay in force if I tore into it to swap cams. Hopefully the oil pan swap won't be a warranty issue.

I'm pretty sure the best average power will be had with the stock cam.

Anyone up for a dyno sim comparing average power numbers between the 204/211 .551/.521 lift LS3 cam and the 211/230 .560/.555 lift LS7 cam in this engine?
Hey Bart,
A couple of random thoughts...
1) You can get an upgraded LS3 w/ the GM HOT cam for just a little more money than the stock LS3.
2) Nevermind- you already got an oil pan.I saw the 480 HP LS3 with the GM hot cam, another 6 or 700 bucks for 50 HP is pretty good. I think I need that $600 to pay for my engine swap headers instead, they will add about 30 HP and make the exhaust hookup easy.

Good thread! I'm planning on doing the swap into my 68 ElCo, but I'm using the 5.3 and trans that is currently driving my Yukon around.

As to the LS3 vs LS7 heads, certainly the port shape is different. I just replaced the exhaust on my 08 LS3 Corvette with the commplete Z06 system. The "Z" manifolds are round port, while the LS3 is D port. Same spacing of course, so it bolts up fine.

As for fuel tanks, I have heard that the late Caprices (the rear drive, "bubble" style) have a in tank, plastic unit that is almost a direct bolt in to the old A bodies. Might want to check that one out.Mike,

The 5.3 is great little engine with great power and super fuel economy, I was impressed with the 327 cube/327 HP carbueted one tested in the Hot Rod crate engine comparo.

Already purchased a '64 direct replacement tank that's EFI-ready from SPI, but I'm sure that info will be valuable to someone here.

Bart

gto65lvr

10-29-2008, 10:33 PM

Hmm I cannot imagine the amount of work involved to change cams would be worth the expense and Bart my last LS1 I went from the stock cam to something a bit wild TR230/236 cam it pulled and sounded just wild but lost all the low end RPM off idle putting in traffic and made it a bit tempermental. I had the 6sp and kind of was a little miffed at that.

it was in a 2000 vette. I am sure a stock LS2 or 3 with a tune will be just what you are looking for hell thats over 400HP at the crank and with that in an LS motor it is a whole different world.

I have 388HP at the tires and it was brutal That was the LS1 with cam, headers, ls6 intake and a real close tune.

YOur totally on the right track and if you would I would very much like to see a tally of parts and $$ you are at for this project. I know from the reading you are doing this the best way both parts ease and $$ wise without skimping.

I have been doing some research on this too but have had all the same questions

engine,trans placement
oil pan depths
etc

Keep it going

b-man

10-29-2008, 11:59 PM

<snip> Your totally on the right track and if you would I would very much like to see a tally of parts and $$ you are at for this project. <snip>So far:

SPI EFI-ready tank - $429 + $76 ship
GF872 filter/reg - $45 + $7 ship
Autokraft pan kit - $430 + $20 ship
Chevelle repro frame mount brackets, pair - $78 + $14 ship
Edelbrock engine swap headers - $600 + $12 handling fee*
Edelbrock engine mount adapter plates - $65 *
Energy Suspension urethane engine mounts, pair - $72 *
Griffin 25202-X 24" x 19" aluminum universal radiator - $196 *

$2044 for this week.

More to come.:usa2:

Karch

10-30-2008, 02:30 AM

Bart, I'll get you the links when I get some more time. I just got back from the Lakers game (they won!).

As for the converter...the trick ticket seems to be an expensive triple disc unit...made by Yank. They can handle WOT shifts while locked, which I am reading is good for another mph or so in the 1/4. Not that you need that, but with these trucks and trannys, they all recommend keeping the lockup feature.

I'll send some links your way, but the ones that are really touted are by FLT and RPM, both out of the midwest.

Colin Frolick

10-30-2008, 03:23 AM

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_0711_6l_hop_up_pt_2/index.html

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0705_chevrolet_ls2_l92_cylinder_heads/index.html

notice how, in the car craft article, power < 4800rpm is alot less with the bigger cam/heads.

a stock cam sounds like a good idea. i've thought about putting a bigger cam in my ls6 powered car... but i like how i can launch it in 3rd gear without stalling, chirp the 295's shifting into FOURTH, and get 28mpg. ur Tempest better have some traction b-man.

you're making me think i should do this my white tempest too:confused:

455HOGT37

10-30-2008, 09:41 AM

...There's a good chance I'll leave the stock LS3 cam in there. I want this engine to run well down low in the RPM range for good gas mileage, that's half the reason I'm doing this swap. Where I live the main roads are 50 MPH, 1600 RPMs at 50 MPH will be where I'm running a lot. I'm also considering warranty issues here, I doubt the warranty would stay in force if I tore into it to swap cams. Hopefully the oil pan swap won't be a warranty issue.

I'm pretty sure the best average power will be had with the stock cam.

50MPH!? You live in Canyon Country, right? Anyway, MY daily stretch of the 14 freeway (Mojave-Palmdale) is 75-80 or you're getting run over. The Corvette shows less than 1800 on the tach at 80MPH (and 30+ MPG). The stock LS3 is a real performer anywhere on the tach. some good long tube headers would only enhance that trait. I'd stay with the stock cam for a while and see how you like it.

If you've never driven the LS3, perhaps I could stop by sometime and you can wring the 'Vette out a little. I'd like to see your project anyway. Lemme know.

ponjohn

10-30-2008, 09:56 AM

B-man-

Any idea what rear gears you're going to run?

John

Karch

10-30-2008, 10:36 AM

b-man

10-30-2008, 10:20 PM

50MPH!? You live in Canyon Country, right? Anyway, MY daily stretch of the 14 freeway (Mojave-Palmdale) is 75-80 or you're getting run over. The Corvette shows less than 1800 on the tach at 80MPH (and 30+ MPG). The stock LS3 is a real performer anywhere on the tach. some good long tube headers would only enhance that trait. I'd stay with the stock cam for a while and see how you like it.

If you've never driven the LS3, perhaps I could stop by sometime and you can wring the 'Vette out a little. I'd like to see your project anyway. Lemme know.My commute to work and back is just across town from Canyon Country to Valencia, so 50 to 60 is usually what I keep my speed to on the 50 to 55 MPH posted roads. I used to commute all the way to Simi Valley, the 2.56 gears that came in the Tempest were ideal at that time for easy 75 to 80 MPH cruising.

I'd be honored to be able to test drive your Corvette, I'll be in touch Mike.:cool:

B-man-

Any idea what rear gears you're going to run?

JohnJohn, I have a 1966 GTO 8.2" 10-bolt 3.36 posi rear, perfect gears for my needs. Just can't beat on it like I do the 9" rear in my GTO.

I wonder what the 3300# (stock) Tempest will weigh after the changes?Steve, the Tempest is (was) a little bit of a heavyweight now, 3780 with 3/4 tank of gas and a full ice chest in the trunk. The all-iron 455, TH400, B-body spindles & 12" discs, big sway bars and 5 heavy steel wheels (I do run a spare) all add up. A bare 17X8" wheel weighs 37#, with tire it weighs around 55 to 58#.

The LS3 will knock a good 250+ pounds off the front of the car, Im figuring the new weight will be close to 3500#. Thats still 100# lighter than my '02 WS6 convert.:)

Karch

10-30-2008, 10:38 PM

Steve, the Tempest is (was) a little bit of a heavyweight now, 3780 with 3/4 tank of gas and a full ice chest in the trunk. The all-iron 455, TH400, B-body spindles & 12" discs, big sway bars and 5 heavy steel wheels (I do run a spare) all add up. A bare 17X8" wheel weighs 37#, with tire it weighs around 55 to 58#.

The LS3 will knock a good 250+ pounds off the front of the car, Im figuring the new weight will be close to 3500#. Thats still 100# lighter than my '02 WS6 convert.:)

I hear you loud and clear.

That was with 14x6's, bias plys, bench seat, 2 spd auto and all else stock.

Later, when I raced my old 455 at LACR, it was 3600#. WS6 swaybar, 7/8" bar in back, 15" Weld wheels, radials up front with 11" discs, 12 bolt in back, heavier springs, buckets, TH400, etc.

If that wasn't bad enough, I too put on a bunch :(.

b-man

11-01-2008, 03:02 AM

All of the engine mount pieces, oil pan, fuel tank + filter/regulator and radiator have arrived, the headers will be here soon. The parts gathering continues.

Considering purchasing this bracket kit from KWiK Performance, it mounts a Sanden A/C compressor up high on the passenger side.http://www.kwikperf.com/lsx_ac.html I'm assuming the Vintage Air setup will use some kind of Sanden compressor.

This will save me some work notching the frame for the low-mounted compressor when using the C6 Corvette accessories. For a little over $200 with shipping it looks like a good way to go, mostly aluminum construction.

Any input on this, Andrew?

On the same note, what would be the best way to buy the Corvette engine accessories I need? As an entire accessory package, or piece by piece?

I don't want to pay for the Corvette A/C bracket that I won't need if I go with the KWiK A/C brackets. But I want be sure to get the right GM alternator, power steering pump & reservoir as well as all the pulleys (tensioners, idlers, etc) needed to make the KWiK A/C brackets work.

Part #s for any of the Corvette pieces I'm going to need here would be much appreciated.

ponjohn

11-01-2008, 07:34 AM

Regardless of which accy mounts you decide on, be certain it is an over the counter belt.

b-man

11-01-2008, 12:37 PM

Regardless of which accy mounts you decide on, be certain it is an over the counter belt.My plan exactly, any replacement parts must be readily available.

Here is a list of parts used for the OEM C5 Corvette accessory drive, copied from this thread on LS1tech.com:http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265717

Alternator (1)10246634 (production) 10316182 (service)
Alternator to bracket bolts (2) 24503609
Alt bracket to head bolts (3) 11516357
Alt bracket to head bolt (1) 11516356
P/S fluid reservoir bracket (1) 12555222
P/S fluid reservoir (1) 26046502
P/S reservoir hose (1) 26046910
P/S reservoir cap (1) 26022453
P/S pump (1) 26046503
P/S pump pulley (1) 12559890
P/S pump brace (1) 12555693 Same as f-body
P/S pump bolts (2) 14078896 Same as f-body
P/S pump bolts (2) 11515758 Same as f-body
Belt idler pulley (1) 12564401 Same as f-body
Harmonic balancer (1) 12560115
Belt tensioner assembly (1) 12559325
A/C belt tensioner assembly (1) 12560345 Same as f-body
A/C belt idler pulley (1) 12557334
A/C compressor bracket (1) 12556444
A/C compressor (1) 1137031
A/C bracket stud (1) 12556447
A/C bracket bolt (1) 11515768
A/C compressor bolt (1) 11516714
A/C compressor bolt (1) 12552922
A/C compressor bolt (1) 11509202
A/C compressor nut (1) 10255857

Another shorter list I copied here to make it easy for reference, from the same thread linked above. Here are the details for GM Parts new C5 Accessory drive kit:

Corvette C5 Accessory Mount Kit From GM: PN 19155066 (19155067 for LS2/7)~$675 Dealer Cost (individual prices listed are from gmpartsdirect.com)

12572188 Serp Belt $40.12 (w/S&H $47.64)
12569528 A/C Belt
12568181 Tensioner $56.57 (w/S&H $69.52)
12560345 A/C Tensioner
12557334 A/C Idler
1137031 A/C Compressor
12556444 A/C Compressor Bracket
15261472 P/S Pump $214.24 (w/S&H $254.41)
12555222 P/S Bracket hardware $4.42 (w/S&H $5.25)
12578068 Alt + P/S Pump Bracket $52.70 (w/S&H $62.58)
12555693 P/S Pump Brace $5.46 (w/S&H $6.48)
12559890 P/S Pump Pulley $12.22 (w/S&H $14.51)
10353440 Alternator $319.22
26046502 P/S Reservoir $29.64 (w/S&H $35.20)

19155067 list for '05 -'07 C6 that I copied from PacePerformance.com selling for $769.95 at Pace, it differs slightly from the list above (individual prices below again from gmpartsdirect.com):

12569286 Bracket - A/C comp
88958093 Comp - A/C
12595289 Tensioner - A/C comp brkt (need for KWiK A/C brkt?) $60.42 (w/S&H $73.37)
12579288 Belt A/C comp (1040mm)
12555222 Bracket Pwr Str Fluid Reservoir $4.42 (w/S&H $5.25)
12578067 Bracket - Alternator & Pwr Str Pump $52.70 (w/S&H $62.58)
15841234 Alternator $250.71 (w/S&H $314.41)
15261472 Pump - Pwr Str $214.24 (w/S&H $254.41)
12568997 Pulley- Pwr Str Pump $12.74 (w/S&H $15.13)
12555693 Brace - Pwr Str Pump, Frt $5.46 (w/S&H $6.48)
15907878 Hose - Pwr Str Reservoir w/clamps $15.08 (w/S&H $17.91)
26046502 Reservoir - Pwr Str Fluid $29.64 (w/S&H $35.20)
10317982 Cap - Pwr Str Reservoir $16.12 (w/S&H $19.14)
12569301 Tensioner - Drive Belt $57.57 (w/S&H $68.36)
12568996 Pulley - Belt Idler (Wtr Pump?) $31.17 (w/S&H $37.01)
12579229 Belt - Wtr Pump/Alt/Pwr Str Pump $24.60 (w/S&H $29.21)

The main non-A/C parts from the 19155067 drive kit listed in bold look about right, maybe they can delete the A/C compressor/bracket/belt or I'll just order them all individually.

Looking at what I think I need (items in bold), it comes to $369.64 including shipping and handling, no alternator or power steering pump.

I can buy the power steering pump for a little less at a generic parts store ($96.99 + $40 core at AutoZone), but is it really worth it instead of buying the brand-new GM parts that may last a lot longer? All of the alternators I see online are priced higher than the ones from GM.

Looking cheaper just to buy the entire kit at this point, even if I can't use the A/C compressor and bracket.

I have already purchased the A/C bracket kit from KWiK Performance, I'll use it to mount the Sanden compressor that will come with the Vintage Air setup.

As a side note, I checked on the price of a starter motor for this beast. Part # 89017847 for a reman from GM, best price I've seen so far is from gmpartsdirect.com at $219.55 + $45.00 core, plus $41.17 S&H :eek: for a total of $305.72. Clearly they make up for their lower prices with added shipping costs, but they're still cheaper by at least $100 over anywhere else I've seen so far.

gto65lvr

11-01-2008, 01:12 PM

hmm I thought you are supposed to use the F body brakets?

Maybe I missed something

b-man

11-01-2008, 05:06 PM

hmm I thought you are supposed to use the F body brakets?

Maybe I missed somethingThe Corvette accessories were recommended by Andrew, I'll take his advice since he's been down this road long before me. The F-body stuff puts the power steering pump down low right next to the steering box, sometimes requiring some grinding on the box. The 'vette accessory drive setup raises the pump up out of the way of the box.

Notes on the 19155067 Corvette accessory drive kit:

This Kit was originally designed for Corvette type engine bays and is shorter and wider than the 19155066 kit. Measurements from the crank center line are vertically 15.5" high, ddrivers side is 17.5" wide, and passenger side is 13" wide. •Deluxe Kit includes all the components and hardware necessary to install on an engine with air conditioning, including water pump, alternator, power steering pump and idler bracket. (Belt included).

Take a look, here's what the C5/C6 'vette drives look like:

Factory kit with low-mounted A/C compressor.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/LSX%20swap%20pics/19155067_ins.jpg

Same Factory setup with KWiK Performance A/C brackets added, looks like it's gonna fit nice.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/LSX%20swap%20pics/ad2y_iso7engine-360x270.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/LSX%20swap%20pics/ad2y_iso6engine-360x270.jpg

b-man

11-01-2008, 09:47 PM

Latest parts cost tally:

KWiK Performance A/C brackets - $197 + $9 ship
AC Delco 3231640 remanufactured starter - $295 + $17 ship*(includes $45 core charge)
AC Delco 11588456 starter bolts (2) - $7*
Dorman 620634 Radiator Fan Assy ('98 -'02 F-body) - $156 + $12 ship

Cost of the today's installment - $693

Total so far - $2737

I figured the starter cost is not out of line for what most would pay for a good mini-starter, it's not a bad buy after all. The fans are OEM designed and ready for the long haul, almost a perfect fit for my radiator core.

I was out measuring my '02 T/A and my Tempest, both cars are parked nose-to-nose in the garage. The width of the core on the '02 radiator matches up perfectly with the core width on my Griffin 24"w X 19"h aluminum universal radiator, the F-body twin-fan setup looks like it was custom-built for a '64 -'67 Pontiac A-body installation.

andrewb70

11-02-2008, 09:26 PM

Bart,

I think the Kwik Performance bracket is a good idea. I was looking into it but after doing my shaker base, there is no room for the A/C compressor up top. Besides, every time I think I want A/C, I change my mind. I love driving with the windows down, even in very high heat.

The GM accessory drive kit wasn't shipping yet when I was putting the engine into the car. I used the same parts list as you are using from ls1tech. I got my apternator from Advanced Auto, online. It was a 140 or 145 AMP model listed under 2004 ZO6 as I recall. It was $225. The first one went out in less than a month. The replacement seems to be working fine. Just a pain in the ass. I got a reman power steering pump as well. To make short, in retrospect, I would go with the genuine GM parts. Get the kit and sell off the AC compressor and brackets. You should be able to get $200-$250 all day long.

Andrew

455HOGT37

11-03-2008, 10:54 AM

Mr_GTO

11-03-2008, 02:13 PM

Great list of parts and numbers. Bravo!

andrewb70

11-03-2008, 03:05 PM

Bart,

You have your oil pan... Is it based on the Corvette unit? The reason I ask is because the Corvette piece has provisions for an external oil cooler (a little cover plate right above the oil filter). My Corvette had no cooler at all, but I was able to easily bolt on the Z06 parts because of the provisions. I'm sure your cooling will be better than the 'Vette, but it is nice to have the option...

The Autokraft pan that Bart is using will retain the oil filter in the stock location. There is a billet oil filter mount what is included with the pan and it has the ports that you speak of.

Andrew

455HOGT37

11-03-2008, 05:07 PM

Well that's good. The Corvette pan has the ports cast/machined right into the side near the filter. I don't know about the F-body pan, but I think other LSx engines have the oil filter all over the place (front, back, middle, etc) depending on the chassis. I know the LS2 engine in my 05 Holden "GTO" had no provisions for the cooler, and the pan shape was way different from the Corvette (and Yukon).

FLYNLOW

11-03-2008, 07:07 PM

Sounds like things are really coming along! I'd love to get my hands on an LS3, they are getting pretty big numbers out of them with a cam. My little 224/224 cammed LS1 seems so wimpy. LoL

Your going to LOVE it BMan!

455HOGT37

11-03-2008, 07:12 PM

b-man

11-03-2008, 11:19 PM

Bart,

I don't know if you have a source for the factory parts you need, but Gene Culley at http://www.gmpartshouse.com/ provides very good service and will beat any price. He supports both the Corvette and LS1.com forums.Mike,

Thanks for the parts source, I'm shopping right now for the LS3 and the best price I've seen for it is $5800 plus $149 shipping and $769.95 for the Corvette accessory package.

I'll be putting a new PYPES 3” Crossmember-back System w/ X-pipe on the Tempest with 2-1/2" tail pipes. I'm downsizing the tail pipe size mainly to tone down the sound some, plus it will provide a bit more clearance around the rear axle for my lowered suspension.

Hopefully a free-flowing exhaust along with the Edelbrock LS1 swap headers will let the LS3 breathe well enough to gain another 30 HP. I really want to retain the low-RPM driveability of the stock cam, and unleash all of the performance potential of this well-engineered engine package with a good exhaust.

Thanks again to everyone for all the helpful advice and support.:usa2:

b-man

11-07-2008, 08:51 PM

Purchased the part # 19201992 LS3 crate engine (assembled in Canada :canada:) today along with the 19155067 Corvette accessory drive kit.

I really can't wait too long to get my hands on the engine and accessories, a lot of the engine compartment fitting & assembly as well as the exhaust system installation can't be done without them here.

Latest parts cost tally:

GM 19201992 LS3 crate engine - $6,195 + $185 ship
GM 19155067 Corvette accessory drive kit - $770 + $16 handling

Cost of the today's installment - $7,166

Total so far - $9,903

Next task will be to pull the interior out of the car. The front & rear seats and rubber floor mat (the Tempest didn't have carpet from the factory) have to come out so I can get under the dash to install the air conditioning components that I still need to buy. I know that a lot of wiring will need to be done too so the inner firewall will need to be stripped bare. The seats need to be reupholstered and a new headliner installed.

The floorpans need a little attention, they will be coated with POR-15 rust preventive paint to stop the rust that has started underneath the rubber floor mat. Any water that gets underneath the rubber mat can't dry out very fast like wet carpet would so there's more than a bit of rust, all of these early A-body cars have leaky windshields and backlights.:(

I'll post a few pics of the engine and parts I've collected so far later next week when the engine arrives.

Still trying to decide which auto trans and converter to buy and who to buy from :confused2, but I'll figure that out pretty soon.

Moving forward.:usa2:

gto65lvr

11-07-2008, 09:31 PM

Ok so far so good you are still cheaper than building an IA2, it will be lots of power too, sedate and get 23+ mpg.

If you figure a very well built stocker 400 with all the new exhaust and tanks and such you are still about dead even and will get twice the gas mileage and still have a motor that acts mellow but has the punch without a temperment.

You could save a little money with buying a take out of a wrecked car but better safe than sorry and you get the latest and greatest. Hell a take out LS3 versus a new crate LS3 is just a few pennies anyway so a crate makes lots of sense.

Cannot wait to see it sitting in the hole and all that, exciting you are making it real hard for me to not install the LS1 I have in my 65 wagon. it is supposed to go into my 37 ford so it can be my economy car LOL

ON the trans part that is a tough call I bet you get a mild built 4l60 or 65 and it will be enough. the 4l80 of course would be even better but money and I think you would have to cut the floor some more and have a separate computer.

Ok so while I am spending your money just get one of those new 6 speed automatics that would be real cool and then put a paddly shift on your steering. Done deal!! LOL

ponjohn

11-07-2008, 09:35 PM

Any sources for take out LSx's?

I had a link to a place in texas but can not find it.

gto65lvr

11-07-2008, 09:40 PM

They are all over the place just gotta weed out the greedy guys and look them over real good with all those flood cars out there. I have seen some low mileage motors in pics that had some pretty crusty bolts and such on them showing massive salt or submersion.

I would def. want to get the vin of the car th emotor came out of and carfax it just to see if anything pops up as in a total loss and where...thats just me

I have seen LS1's as low as 2k for a low miler all the way up to 9k for a take out and trans for an LS2. and definitely anywhere in between

6 Grrrs

11-08-2008, 09:15 AM

Any sources for take out LSx's?

I had a link to a place in texas but can not find it.

www.jjsautomotive.com ask for Brian. Located near Pittsburgh, but ships all ocver the worl. He's a friend of mine.

I would def. want to get the vin of the car th emotor came out of and carfax it just to see if anything pops up as in a total loss and where...thats just me

You serious? Why would someone pull a motor/trans out of a car that was not a total loss? That's why these cars end up at salvage yards. Obviously nobody wants a junk motor, but if you deal with a decent, reputable shop you sholdn't have any worries. I have seen fire damaged & flooded motors that were just fine but needed a bunch of accy items to get running again. My T56 that's in my truck came from a burnt '95 camaro that even the shifter was melted and not much else was any good. The trans has taken almost 10 years of abuse without any trouble.

jimmy-ny

11-08-2008, 11:17 AM

You should also give Jeff Schwartz a call.

Bart - use the Schwartz ("Spaceballs")

Couldn't help myself. But this thread is incredible. Good luck with the project. I remember seeing Andrew's GTO a few years back and when I first picked up my Tempest, an LSx possibility was definitely my plan at some future date.

Jimmy

Overkillphil

11-08-2008, 08:10 PM

I'm still salivating over those pics of the white Tempest! 2 door post, off white, and dog dish covers coupled with a real nice stance.

That's an excellent candidate for an LS swap!

b-man

11-08-2008, 11:14 PM

.....but someone's gotta do it. Some unpleasant but necessary work needs to be done to prepare for the drivetrain swap.

Since the weather's been extra nice (in the mid-80s) the last few days I took the opportunity to do some more badly-needed garage cleaning and remove the interior from the Tempest.

Junk in the trunk. Most of the parts I've collected so far are crammed in the trunk until I have a better place to put them.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02224.jpg

A good used '66 8.2" 3.36 posi rear has been put aside for this project, already scrubbed down with a wire brush and some Simple Green. Two coats of POR-15 semi-gloss black, urethane upper bushings, and some better-fitting brake lines are all it needs. A new charge of GM #1052271 80W-90 axle lubricant and a 4oz bottle of GM #1052358 limited slip axle lubricant additive will be added as well.

Note to self: Do not hammer it too hard out of the hole with this rear end!

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02225.jpg

This is the farthest the Tempest has ventured out of the garage in years, just far enough to get the driver's door open to access the front seat bolts. It pushes back inside pretty easily, the driveway slope isn't too severe at this point. The original black CA plates just add to the charm of this once thrifty little beauty. :)

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02229.jpg

A shot of the original 140 HP 215 straight six that came in this car, it's identical to the 230 Chevy six other than having a smaller bore size (3.750" vs 3.875" for the 230) and having 'PONTIAC' cast into both sides of the block. So yes the little Tempest originally came with a 'corporate' engine of sorts.

The same engine was used for the '65 A-body as the standard engine as well, both the Lemans and Tempest rolled off the assembly line with one of these if you didn't ask for the 326 V8. It's getting a 'corporate' engine again that will get even better gas mileage and have about 4 times the power.:eek::cool:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/Hoods%20for%20sale/DSC02214.jpg

A look inside before the teardown. The seats are in need of attention, especially the front bench. A nice blue indian blanket (already removed here) made the front bench liveable in the past, but now it's time for a decent upholstery job. All of the upholstery pictured is the original issue for this '64 Tempest.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02226.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02227.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02228.jpg

A shot of the original rubber floor mats that came in the low-line Tempest. Easy to clean off with a sponge and soapy water, I kind of prefer these rubber mats to carpet in a daily driver.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02230.jpg

What I now have to deal with :gag:: Removal of all the old sound deadener and some minor (I hope) rust repair. I do see a few holes that have started under the driver's foot area and one just behind the passenger side of the front bench where it bolts down. All of the bolts holding the seat belts and front seat down came out easily.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02231.jpg

A look at the dash and front floors. Note the original cardboard sun visors that don't attach and pivot off of the rear view mirror, there's no day-night mirror on this base model. Simple and inexpensive, but still a lot of car for the money back in '64.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02232.jpg

Seats stashed until I can get them to an upholstery shop.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02233.jpg

Junk now out of the trunk. I have a '66 VW Type II pickup stashed in the garage, it makes a perfect work bench or storage spot. The completely flat bed on this little one-ton truck is 5' 6" wide and 8' 10" long. The 'covered wagon' canvas top is a unique factory option on this truck.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02234.jpg

ponjohn

11-09-2008, 12:23 PM

I'm still salivating over those pics of the white Tempest! 2 door post, off white, and dog dish covers coupled with a real nice stance.

That's an excellent candidate for an LS swap!

Absolutely!!

ponjohn

11-09-2008, 12:25 PM

Ummmmm. Bman....corvette rims on the VW? That is a very cool piece.

How long have had the 64? Obviously very solid, original paint?
Are you going to do mehcanical gauges or OBDII based guages?

John

b-man

11-09-2008, 01:29 PM

Ummmmm. Bman....corvette rims on the VW? That is a very cool piece.

How long have had the 64? Obviously very solid, original paint?
Are you going to do mehcanical gauges or OBDII based guages?

JohnJohn,

I put those 16X8.5" 1984 'vette rims and 205/55-16 tires on it back in '86, when all the Corvette guys were dumping them for aftermarket rims or for newer 'vette 16X9.5" rims. Drilled the front discs (off a '71 Type II Bus) and the rear drums (IRS rear suspension/drum brakes off a '70 Type III Squareback) for the Chevy 5 on 4.75" pattern and they bolted right on with no room to spare, but with no cutting on the body.

And if you're wondering, it does handle. With a 94.5" wheelbase that's within an inch or two of a C4/C5 'vette, a super-low center of gravity (only the cab itself puts any real weight above the beltline), fully independent suspension and an empty weight of only 2400# it corners like it's on rails.

I've owned the Tempest since 1996, it was 100% bone-stock. I drove it for 46K miles commuting with the original (rebuilt) 215-6/2-speed auto/2.56 gears getting 20 MPG on the average. I took it to the track once just for fun and it ran close to 20 seconds-flat at almost 70 MPH, never shifting out of low gear.:D

Most of the white paint is original, some of it is various bodyshop paint matches from some minor aches and pains it suffered over the years. It looks better in pictures than in person, but it does have a nice patina and looks great going down the road.

I'll try to use mechanical gauges wherever I can, to keep the look as low-key and as low-tech as possible. If I have to use anything different, I'll tuck them under the dash if possible.

gto65lvr

11-10-2008, 07:08 PM

www.jjsautomotive.com ask for Brian. Located near Pittsburgh, but ships all ocver the worl. He's a friend of mine.

You serious? Why would someone pull a motor/trans out of a car that was not a total loss? That's why these cars end up at salvage yards. Obviously nobody wants a junk motor, but if you deal with a decent, reputable shop you sholdn't have any worries. I have seen fire damaged & flooded motors that were just fine but needed a bunch of accy items to get running again. My T56 that's in my truck came from a burnt '95 camaro that even the shifter was melted and not much else was any good. The trans has taken almost 10 years of abuse without any trouble.

I said this because you want to make sure the car was not front ended and hit the crank balancer can damage things sometimes the recyclers will pull the pulleys off because they got bent and or replace the balancer. Then you have a crank and bearings that could be wiped

also if it was a flood car was it fresh or salt water? Makes a big difference

never get a car that was in salt water major issues, fresh water it will last a little longer before corrosion issues with electronics and related.

gto65lvr

11-10-2008, 07:11 PM

B-man but the LS in the VW yeeeeeee hawwwwwwwwwwww

I saw a guy make bolt on plates and slide a solid axle right onto/into the vw spring plates and mid mounted a small block right in the floor behind the seats in a bus this was many moons ago was around for a long time

455HOGT37

11-11-2008, 10:27 AM

...So when does the engine show up at your door?

markpj23

11-11-2008, 02:42 PM

.....

A shot of the original 140 HP 215 straight six that came in this car, it's identical to the 230 Chevy six other than having a smaller bore size (3.750" vs 3.875" for the 230) and having 'PONTIAC' cast into both sides of the block. So yes the little Tempest originally came with a 'corporate' engine of sorts.

The same engine was used for the '65 A-body as the standard engine as well, both the Lemans and Tempest rolled off the assembly line with one of these if you didn't ask for the 326 V8. It's getting a 'corporate' engine again that will get even better gas mileage and have about 4 times the power.:eek::cool:

Yeah that's a spiffy little engine... took mine to a chassis dyno just for laughs. I made a whopping 59 HP at the rear wheels.... but the carb was shot. I probably have a full 80 HP at the wheels now :D

This is a great project - can't wait to see the finished product!

b-man

11-11-2008, 10:07 PM

...So when does the engine show up at your door?Had a slight problem with getting payment to go through on Friday, but it's all taken care of now. The LS3 will show up at my work early next week, I'll have one of the guys forklift it into the back of my trusty (not rusty) old '70 Chevy C20 pickup.

New PYPES 3" X-pipe/2.5" tailpipes exhaust showed up today, another piece of the puzzle.:thumbup:

455HOGT37

11-11-2008, 10:20 PM

I'd hoped you would have it sooner... I'm going down your way on Friday. I guess some other time.

andrewb70

11-12-2008, 12:12 PM

Great progress!

Andrew

b-man

11-12-2008, 10:17 PM

Great progress!

AndrewThanks, not a lot going on with the actual swap yet as I need to do a few things to the old relic before I start stuffing the drivetrain in.

However I'm really doing a great job of spending money and stashing parts!:o

fbrown

11-13-2008, 02:04 AM

Karch

11-13-2008, 02:27 AM

Just an FYI...currently, you can get 2007/2008 Trailblazer SS ECM/TCM pairs for about $160.

I don't know how you'd make it work, but that's a very good deal as of now.

455HOGT37

11-13-2008, 10:15 AM

My plan is to use everything I can from the Yukon, including computers, wiring, and even the fly-by-wire throttle. The main benefit of this is that I will have the entire vehicle to pick over once it is retired (rather than multiple trips to the junk yard). I'm hoping this is feasible because there is so much "pin out" info available, I should be able to modify my own harness. Will sure be more work than a "turn key" product, but it will be much cheaper (throwing out my labor, anyway).

gto65lvr

11-13-2008, 06:46 PM

bman

I just wanted to thank you again for all this wonderful info and for keeping our economy alive. IF you think about all the goodies you are buying and the amount of people involved to get them to you I think you just about kept the US open for biz LOL.

You prob. saved over 100 peoples jobs.

b-man

11-13-2008, 11:18 PM

I'm at about the same stage you are with my conversion, using almost the same parts, LS3 crate etc. My car however is a 68 Lemans that is being converted to a GTO.

I ordered my wiring harness and computers from Speartech since for one reason or other I didn't like the other aftermarket solutions. The GMPP harness requires special software to tune and is not compatible with OBD2 scanners. It also does not talk to an auto transmission controller. The cost of this solution with a GMPP transmission controller is about nearly $2000.

Mast Motor Sports makes a harness/computer that looks very good on the surface but is not truly OBD2 compatible, supports only VDO CAN gauge and cannot be scanned by an OBD2 scanner. By the time you add the transmission controller you are at nearly $3000.

Speartech make a harness and uses GM computers for both the engine and transmission for $1695. This was the choice I made since it can use any of the standard OBD2 scanners, gauges or tuning software. The Speartech solution will also give you cruse control it you want it, which the other two do not. (Mast tells me the cruse has not been done on their computer and is not a high priority).

The main point of interest here is that your selection of a 4L60E will depend on what controller you use. Speartech tells me that for a 4L60E to work with the LS3 and factory GM controllers (NOT GMPP) that the transmission will have to be configured like it is being installed in a 06 Trailblazer SS and not like the typical Camaro transmission that is commonly used. Apparently the output shaft and control electronics are different.

I also had sticker shock when pricing starters. :eek: I have not purchased mine yet.Thank you for the detailed transmission and wiring harness compatibility info, this is a huge help to me. Now I know how much I'll have to spend on a harness, figured it would be at least $1500. Best of luck on your project.

bman

I just wanted to thank you again for all this wonderful info and for keeping our economy alive. IF you think about all the goodies you are buying and the amount of people involved to get them to you I think you just about kept the US open for biz LOL.

You prob. saved over 100 peoples jobs.I'm more than happy to share whatever info I've been able to 'mine' off of the 'net, and help others figure out what direction they need to go when doing an A-body LSX swap. It's hard to figure out what to do when searching through different threads that have bits and pieces of somewhat vague information. Hopefully I can make this thread a good archive of information as well as interesting reading, with as much great help as I've been receiving from the membership it should be a success.

For as long as I've been involved in this hobby (almost 35 years) I have helped to support a lot of small aftermarket parts companies, and buying new parts from GM can't hurt either.

There's lot of good stuff for our cars made here in the USA, Canada and by our Aussie friends as well.:usa2::canada::ausflag:

b-man

11-20-2008, 11:29 PM

Today was a fun day for me. My new crate LS3 showed up at about 2:30 PM and I was ready with my trusty (not rusty) '70 Chevy pickup, I had driven it to work for the last 3 days anticipating the engine delivery. The old workhorse did double duty today, picking up the new engine and dropping off the tattered Tempest front bench and back seat at the upholstery shop after work on my way home.

My prize:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/LSX%20swap%20pics/DSC02254.jpg

Good ol' pickup, this truck equipped with a factory 402 big-block/TH400 hauled my '64 GTO back and forth to the bracket races for over a decade:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/LSX%20swap%20pics/DSC02256.jpg

Tomorrow I'll tear the crate apart and deposit the LS3 in my garage, I'm too tired to do it tonight. More pics coming soon.

455HOGT37

11-21-2008, 02:30 PM

OK... NOW I'm really motivated to drop by...

Looks like an early Christmas!

b-man

11-22-2008, 12:54 AM

Pulled the top off the crate tonight and hoisted the LS3 off the pallet.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/LSX%20swap%20pics/DSC02264.jpg

The Tempest gets acquainted with the new-tech motivating force.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/LSX%20swap%20pics/DSC02268.jpg

Merry Christmas to me!

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/LSX%20swap%20pics/DSC02269.jpg

My upholsterer called me today, he was able to locate the original striped cloth for the seats ($79/yard) as well as the correct color vinyl. Now my seats will look as factory original as possible, I was almost sure I'd have to compromise and end up with something different.

I'm so stoked.:jumping:

78 GHOST

11-22-2008, 08:02 PM

Bart, that looks very cool! I know you've got headers, but is that absolutely necessary in a typical A-Body? Do you think you could have used the stockers?

Thanks in advance.

b-man

11-22-2008, 11:12 PM

Bart, that looks very cool! I know you've got headers, but is that absolutely necessary in a typical A-Body? Do you think you could have used the stockers?

Thanks in advance.According to everything I've read about this particular early A-body swap, the only manifolds that would fit are F-body ones. Even then, the driver's side requires either notching the frame or cutting off one 'ear' then drilling and tapping the 3-bolt pattern on a smaller bolt circle 60 degrees from where it was originally.

If the Corvette manifolds would have fit, I would have gladly saved the $600 and used them. I figured the Edlebrock headers would be a slam-dunk and solve any exhaust problems, and the added 20 to 30 HP wouldn't be a bad thing.;)

andrewb70

11-24-2008, 11:46 PM

Moving right along. You should have this beast running in a couple of weeks, right? :-)

Andrew

b-man

11-24-2008, 11:53 PM

Moving right along. You should have this beast running in a couple of weeks, right? :-)

AndrewDon't I wish.

Too many worn-out things to fix on this old heap along with new non-swap related goodies to install before I get to the real 'meat' of the swap.

My weekends are too short.:(

Bart

andrewb70

11-26-2008, 11:01 AM

Don't I wish.

Too many worn-out things to fix on this old heap along with new non-swap related goodies to install before I get to the real 'meat' of the swap.

My weekends are too short.:(

Bart

Bart,

You may also want to consider ditching the b-body spindles and going with the ATS AFX spindles.

Andrew

b-man

11-26-2008, 10:26 PM

Bart,

You may also want to consider ditching the b-body spindles and going with the ATS AFX spindles.

AndrewRight now I can't, my build will already be way over budget even without touching the front suspension. The interior work, some new modern floor insulation and a new windshield (old one is cracked) will have to take precendence over the front end for right now.

I do plan to upgrade the rear suspension with a set of Currie Currectrac arms during this phase of the build.

I saw the ATS spindles you set your car up with, very nice. To use them I'd also have to buy a new set of front control arms, at least a set of uppers, correct?

Bart

quick67bird

11-27-2008, 02:16 AM

This looks like a fun build. I have thought about doing this with my GFs 64 Lemans, but I have bought a traditional Pontiac 455.

Robert

b-man

11-28-2008, 12:09 PM

This looks like a fun build. I have thought about doing this with my GFs 64 Lemans, but I have bought a traditional Pontiac 455.

RobertThanks for the kind words Robert. The Tri-Power 455 that I took out of the Tempest will live on (with better heads, cam and tri-y headers) in another one of my '64s, a Lemans convertible with factory A/C and power windows.:)

Now, a few more questions for you Andrew.

1) What are the wheel width and backspace measurements on your '70 GTO?

2) Will adding the rear disc brakes to the rear end add to the track width any, and if so by by how much over stock drum brakes?

3) Same type of question on the ATS front spindles and Z06 brakes, how much added track width could one expect from making those changes over the B-body spindles and 12" disc brakes?

I'm seriously considering an upgrade to 18x9" alloy wheels. I'll put the 17X8" steel wheels and dog dish caps on my '64 Lemans convertible if I decide to do the 18" wheel upgrade.

Thanks for any info you can offer.

Bart

andrewb70

11-28-2008, 12:55 PM

Thanks for the kind words Robert. The Tri-Power 455 that I took out of the Tempest will live on (with better heads, cam and tri-y headers) in another one of my '64s, a Lemans convertible with factory A/C and power windows.:)

Now, a few more questions for you Andrew.

1) What are the wheel width and backspace measurements on your '70 GTO?

2) Will adding the rear disc brakes to the rear end add to the track width any, and if so by by how much over stock drum brakes?

3) Same type of question on the ATS front spindles and Z06 brakes, how much added track width could one expect from making those changes over the B-body spindles and 12" disc brakes?

I'm seriously considering an upgrade to 18x9" alloy wheels. I'll put the 17X8" steel wheels and dog dish caps on my '64 Lemans convertible if I decide to do the 18" wheel upgrade.

Thanks for any info you can offer.

Bart

1. Rear wheels are 18x10.5, 6.5" backspacing. Front wheels are 18x8, 4.5" backspacing.

I wish I had wider front wheels. I think I can easily run 275/35/18s. Current tires are 295/40 in the rear and 255/40 in the front.

2. The only change to the rear track will be as a result of a thicker rotor vs. the drum. So 1/8" at most, per side.

3. I can't really give you a clear answer on this issue since I never had stock b-body spindles. Before I swapped to the ATS spindles I was using Bell Tech 2" dropped spindles. According to Tyler at ATS, the AFX spindles do not change the track width at all compared to stock spindles.

The C6 Z06 brakes are monstrous. The biggest issue is not the diameter of the wheel that is required, but the spoke clearance. Going with regular C5/C6 brakes will greatly expand the wheel selection. If I was doing a 64 Tempest, I would run these wheels:

http://www.vintagewheelworks.com/products/wheels/v60

I'd run a Mickey Thompson drag radial in the rear, 295/45/17 on a 17x11 wheel.

In the front I would run a 17x9 wheel, with a 245/45-17 tire of your choice in the front.

:-)

Andrew

David Holmberg

11-28-2008, 10:08 PM

Bart, I hate you man...

I'd drive the 3500 miles out there to slap you around and steal that LS3, but it would be cheaper just to buy one here. ;)

b-man

11-28-2008, 10:23 PM

Budget?

What's that?

I have decided to replace the '66 3.36 posi 8.2" 10-bolt Pontiac A-body narrow rear end with a much stronger '71 -'72 3.42 posi 8.5" 10-bolt Olds/Buick A-body (tapered bearing bolt-in axle) wide rear end. The strength of the GM corporate 8.5" rear rivals that of the Chevy 12-bolt, as an added plus the tapered bearing 28-spline bolt-in axles are best for hard cornering and overall durability.

I had been hesitating to replace the early narrow 8.2" rear end with a later wide 8.5" rear end (1" wider overall, 1/2" per side) mainly because of the way my steel 17X8s were built, they won't fit in the rear with 4-1/2" of backspace and a wide rear end. Now that I have decided to go for a set of 18X9" wheels all around I can buy new wheels that will fit with a wider rear axle.

The 17X8" steelies and dog dish caps will soon find a new home on my '64 Lemans convertible.:cool:

After doing some measuring I see that I will have 7.25" from the wheel mounting surface on the rear drum to the frame rail/inner fender and 4.50" to the outer fender inner body panel, for a total of 11.75" of room from side to side for a wheel/tire assembly.

A 9" wide rim is 10" in overall width, once you add the width of the outer wheel lips to the width of the 9" bead width of the rim. With the rim perfectly centered from side to side (looking from the rear) in the wheelwell, ideally I should have .875" of body/frame clearance on both sides of it (11.75" - 10" = 1.750", divided by 2 = .875").

After doing some internet research I have found a 18X9" wheel spec'd for a 2008 BMW Z4, the 5 on 120 mm bolt pattern is plenty close enough to the GM 5 on 4.75 to work (120.65 mm). I'm not first guy to use the 120mm bolt circle BMW wheels on a GM car.

I need a 9" wheel with close to 6.5" of backspace to center the wheel from side to side, the wheels I found have a 40mm offset which is the same as 6.57" of backspace. A tad toward the inside, but still very good.

After I upgrade to rear disc brakes on the car the rear wheel will move outward by about .125", moving the wheel pretty close to the exact amount I want to center it even better. I should end up with something like .805" between the inner wheel lip and the frame/inner fender panel, pretty close to perfect.:)

I can use this same wheel up front with a 1.25" thick billet aluminum wheel adapter, I have room to go inward by about 1" but almost no room to go outward. Using the 1.25" adapter effectively changes the 6.57" wheel backspacing to 5.32", moving the outer face of the front wheel lip outward by about .180" (less than 3/16") from where it is right now with the current 17X8" 4.5" backspace wheels.

I will run the same size tires front and rear, 245/40-18, 25.7" tall. This size tire will have very close to a 10" section width (sidewall to sidewall) mounted on a 9" rim, it is spec'd at 9.8" when mounted on an 8.5" wide rim.

I can rotate the tires from front to back by running the same size front and rear, plus I happen to like that look. There's still plenty of room to go up in size to a 275/40-18 that's 26.6" tall in the rear later on too if I change my mind.

My wheel choice, 18X9" O.Z Racing Ultraleggera, black painted of course.;)

40 mm offset/6.57" backspace, weighing only 20.8 pounds.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/oz_ultraleggera_mblk_ci3_l.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/oz_ultraleggera_mblk_ci2_l.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/oz_ultraleggera_mblk_ci1_l.jpg

Spent some time today while it is still unseasonably warm out to get wet and dirty cleaning up the front suspension and engine compartment a bit. The front end cleaned up pretty nice.

The frame from the firewall forward, front suspension and inner wheelwells are coated with semi-gloss black POR-15. Note the junkyard 12" B-body rotors that have been redrilled from the 5 on 5" GM big car pattern to the 5 on 4.75" GM intermediate pattern.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02303.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02304.jpg

Moving forward.:usa2:

FLYNLOW

11-29-2008, 04:14 AM

b-man

11-29-2008, 05:18 AM

http://www.motorsport-tech.com/

Ordered my wheel adapters from them. Hub centric, made in the US, very nice pieces and very reasonable prices. And you can get them made in any thickness you want to the MM to get your BS just perfect.Thank you, this is a big help.

I was just checking out some adapters and they have 120mm listed rather than 120.65 for the 1964 GTO/Tempest bolt pattern. Looks like the slight difference between the two bolt circles (4.750"[120.65 mm] - 4.7244"[120 mm] = .02559") isn't enough to cause any problems.

EDIT:Concerning the slight bolt pattern difference I noted above, you must be careful when using the wheel adapter configuration feature on that site. It must think that the 1964 GTO (120.7 mm) that I entered is the same as a late 2004 - 2006 GTO (120 mm).

I also tried a 1972 GP and it came up with a 115 mm bolt circle which is a late model FWD GP pattern. Only by entering a 1st or 2nd-gen Firebird it came up with the correct 70.3 mm center bore and 120.7 mm (120.65 mm) bolt circle, it thinks that 1964 was a Firebird year too. Pontiac is misspelled as 'Pontaic' on there as well.:rolleyes:

I'll probably buy a pair of 28 mm (1.1") adapters for the front, effectively giving me a 5.47" backspace wheel for the front.

The slight bolt pattern difference will be fixed up front with the adapters. In the back I'll see if I can get the axles stud holes redrilled or reamed to move the bolt circle inward slightly and install some new 12 X 1.5 mm studs.

b-man

11-29-2008, 09:19 PM

I decided to buy 245/40-18s and 275/40-18s since this thing could really use some tire to help handle the 450+ HP I'm expecting. Now that my wheels and tires are on order along with my front wheel adapters (27 mm/1.06") it's time again to do some more work to prep the body.

I removed the windshield so I could put a halt to the rust that was forming in the window channel, plus it had a crack that was slowly growing downward from the rear view mirror area.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02309.jpg

Other than a few lower windshield trim clips that were pretty much consumed by the rust I don't see any really bad spots.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02308.jpg

Some heavy pitting is present but no holes that I can see so far, after some more work with a wire brush it will soon be ready for the POR-15 treatment. For those of you who haven't tried POR-15, you'll soon see the near miracles this stuff can perform. At only $45 a quart it's an affordable solution for minor to moderate rust problems.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02310.jpg

b-man

11-30-2008, 11:00 PM

.....that will be fixed next weekend if all goes well. Today I scrubbed down the floorpans with some Simple Green followed up by some mineral spirits (paint thinner) in the areas where the old tar-based sound deadener left some black sticky residue.

The driver's side footwell has a few holes. The hole next to the where the accelerator pedal goes is the biggest one on the entire floorpan. I will use a couple of layers of fiberglass cloth along with the high-fill silver POR-15 to patch it.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02320.jpg

Passenger footwell, numerous holes there to patch with small pieces of fiberglass cloth.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02319.jpg

The front passenger floor has a lot of little holes, this side is in far worse shape than the driver's side.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02318.jpg

Just behind the passenger seat above the body brace some more small patches are needed.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02316.jpg

Overall it looks pretty good, actually in a lot better shape than I'd expected. There's no need to replace the floorpans on this little beauty.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02313.jpg

The rear seat area is in primo shape, just a little cleaning was all it needed.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02311.jpg

I tried to make the most of the Thanksgiving 4-day weekend. The weather has been absolutely stunning lately with temps in the mid to low 80s, so I needed to take full advantage of it for getting as many wet and dirty jobs taken care of as possible.

Next weekend I'll finish prepping the floors on Saturday using some Metal-Prep to etch the rusted areas, and get an early start on Sunday applying the POR-15 paint and fiberglass patches.

You really need to plan on having a full day to do the POR-15 application. The instructions point out that you must recoat after waiting 2 to 3 hours, otherwise you have to sand it all to make any more coats stick. The day gets eaten up pretty fast if you plan on doing 2 or 3 coats of the stuff.

Stayin' busy.:usa2:

ponjohn

12-01-2008, 01:37 PM

Bart-

Horsepower TV this weekend did a brake upgrade on a 69 gto. They used all Wilwood components. Looked real easy, I am certain it is not cheap.

Food for thought.

John

b-man

12-01-2008, 10:22 PM

Bart-

Horsepower TV this weekend did a brake upgrade on a 69 gto. They used all Wilwood components. Looked real easy, I am certain it is not cheap.

Food for thought.

JohnI was looking into some Corvette brakes from KORE 3, I'd much rather use OEM stuff that's not only cheaper but much easier to find parts for.

I saw a 'hybrid' front brake kit for my tall B-body spindle for about $1100 that use a mix of C6 calipers and 14" (355 mm) C6 ZO6 rotors.

For the back I was considering a 13" (330 mm) Z51 brake package with the internal parking brake drum for $1200, but they only make the rear kits for C-clip rear ends.:(

I'll have to call one of their techs and find out exactly why they are not going to fit my bolt-in axle '71 -'72 Olds/Buick 8.5" rear.

The aftermarket brakes are great, but I'll never need any better braking power than the OEM Corvette parts will deliver.

Stuart

12-01-2008, 10:50 PM

I have a couple old BMWs, so besides spending time on PY I hang out on some of the BMW boards as well. There have been a lot of discussions about using 5x4.75 wheels on BMWs that have 5x120mm bolt patterns, and the concensus is that even though they're close they're not close enough. I honestly don't know if that's just the opinion of a bunch of anal retentive BMW guys :) or if it's fact. Another thing is that BMW wheels are hubcentric rather than lugcentric (i.e. the hub hole must have a snug fit on the hub) so I don't know if going the other way will cause any problems.

Virtually all modern BMWs have a hub size of 72.5mm, except for the e39 5-series (1997-2003 models) which has a hub size of 74mm. You can buy spacer rings to make the e39 wheels fit on other BMWs, from Tire Rack and other sources.

b-man

12-02-2008, 12:53 AM

.....I'd like to ask Andrew what spare wheel & tire he's using.

I knew there was reason I wanted all 4 tires to be the same, my posi rear won't appreciate my running a different tire height on one side if I get a flat. Oh well, big tires in back for now.

But a tall, wide spare just won't fly up front as I'll be filling the wheelwell up pretty much all the way with the 245/40-18 on a 9" rim. I need a somewhat narrow wheel with a 26.6" tall tire on it to keep the posi unit happy. One that will clear a big brake up front and in the rear too.

Late-model 18" steel spare wheel from an Astro Van or something?

Maybe I'll spend the money for another 18X9 wheel to match my other 4 and put a taller narrower tire on it that will still clear up front and be the right height for the rear.

A 245/45-18 looks as close as I'll be able to find, at 26.7" tall it's within a tenth of an inch of the 275-40-18 rear tire height. After I wear out the fronts maybe Ill replace them both with this size, however a tire that tall starts to interfere with the lower rear corner of the front wheelwell on tight turns. Used only as a spare it will be okay up front.

What to do.:confused:

Stuart,

I've read on some forums that guys are running the 120 mm wheels on the 120.65 hubs with no issues, but I'd rather not.

Up front I will have 1.06" thick adapters that will solve both the backspacing and bolt pattern issues. My new aftermarket wheels come with whatever centering ring I want at no charge, so I specified 70.7 mm ones that will fit the GM hubs.

In the rear I'll pop the old GM 7/16-20 studs (Dorman 610-186, 12mm/.472" knurl diameter) out of the axles and drill or ream the holes to fit some M12 X 1.5 studs (Dorman 610-245, 14.15 mm/.557" knurl diameter).

I can move the studs inward on the bolt circle by .0128" easily. The .085" bigger hole needed for the new stud will facilitate the slight bolt pattern adjustment and still maintain full press-in contact around the knurl.

4.750" (120.65 mm) bolt circle vs 4.724" (120 mm), not big difference.

I'll see if my rear end builder can do this for me, otherwise I'll do it at work (we have a huge machine shop).

Bart

Stuart

12-02-2008, 10:46 AM

andrewb70

12-02-2008, 10:47 AM

.....I'd like to ask Andrew what spare wheel & tire he's using.

......

Bart

Wing and a prayer my friend. Wing and a prayer.

If you get a reasonably sized brake package you can use the readily available late model GTO spare.

Andrew

ponjohn

12-02-2008, 04:39 PM

Spare tire = fix a flat and 12 volt compressor.

b-man

12-02-2008, 10:12 PM

I'm personally not a big fan of wheels with high offset (the spokes are nearly flush with the outer edge of the wheel, and I think a deeper lip looks better.) Wheels to fit a Z3/Z4, or a 3 series BMW, typically are in that 40mm range. Wheels for the bigger BMWs have offsets typically in the 15 to 20mm range, which would probably fit on the front of your car without spacers. On the other hand, you'd have to narrow the rear end to get them to fit on the rear, but hey it's only money. :)My alloy wheel tastes are the opposite of yours Stuart. My wheels have a 40mm offset. The wheel style I bought isn't offered for the big BMWs, most of the aftermarket rims that fit them are very pricey 3-piece 19 and 20-inch sizes.

I prefer a nicely-sculptured set of spokes displayed at the outer edge of the wheel on a road car. The wheels I bought are designed and made in Italy, those guys know style. The casting work on these are truly a work of art.

I just don't get it when guys brag about having a rim with a '4-inch lip', a deep-dish wheel belongs on the rear of a drag car in my opinion.

Spare tire = fix a flat and 12 volt compressor.Nothing ruins a tire better than a can of fix-a-flat unfortunately, that stuff eats away at your tire and it's not good to use afterward.

Screw it, I'm buying a fifth matching alloy wheel and a 245/45-18 tire that will work as a spare on both ends of the car.

Never hurts to have an extra wheel ready if they someday discontinue my particular wheel, just in case I damage or curb one :eek:

It's always nice knowing you have correct-fitting full-size spare in the trunk if you're far away from civization, the towing bill could easily equal or surpass the cost of another wheel & tire.

71firebird400

12-03-2008, 12:02 AM

Very interesting thread, Bart. I'm following it closely (even though I don't have the budget to do anything similar), it's a lot of fun to see how you're doing things.

fbrown

12-03-2008, 12:51 AM

b-man

12-03-2008, 01:13 AM

Changing the Subject, have you figured how to connect a temperature sensor to the LS3? The one that is installed will be needed for the ECM. Although there is a plug in the back passenger side head, the opening is too small for the typical a-body temp sensor.With all of the non-swap related stuff going on I haven't had time to even consider any of the details such as this.

I suppose one could install a water temp sender in the 'hot side' upper radiator hose as close to the engine as possible. This would involve cutting out a couple inches of hose in an appropriate place and using a piece of tubing with a 1/2 NPT half coupling welded to it clamped in the line. Myself I'd use a mechanical temp gauge so grounding isn't an issue.

It might even be possible to tap the water pump for some kind of sensor, to be honest I haven't even looked over the new LS3 that closely.

Does anyone have any input on this?

andrewb70

12-03-2008, 10:55 AM

455HOGT37

12-03-2008, 11:55 AM

Spare tire = fix a flat and 12 volt compressor.

That's what Porsche uses...

My Corvette has the run flats, but I will be switching to the "Porsche Plan" when they wear out. The runflat tires are not only gawd-awful expensive to buy and service, they weigh a ton.

FLYNLOW

12-03-2008, 08:51 PM

That's what Porsche uses...

My Corvette has the run flats, but I will be switching to the "Porsche Plan" when they wear out. The runflat tires are not only gawd-awful expensive to buy and service, they weigh a ton.

Standard on the Z06, too. I have no spare for the Firebird or the Barracuda. Never had a flat. If I do, I suppose thats what towing is for. I would be screwed however in some of the areas I regularly travel where you might not see another car for hours and theres no phones or cell service... lol.

::shrug::

455HOGT37

12-04-2008, 10:32 AM

Standard on the Z06, too. I have no spare for the Firebird or the Barracuda. Never had a flat...

::shrug::

Lots of new cars simply don't have room for a spare tire (like the C6 Corvette). Flats are indeed pretty rare these days. Like you, I rarely (like once in 25 years of driving) have had to change to a spare tire on the side of the road... Until the 'Vette. I have punctured the right rear TWICE in less than 10,000 miles. WTF :noidea:

As an aside, if I was ever to do a "ground up" LSx swap, I would like to do a clone of my old 70 Formula 400. That one was a "numbers" 4 speed car, so I couldn't cut it up, but I'd sure like to find a clean flat window 'Bird and start gathering parts. The Formula hood is the coolest ever made, IMHO.

6 Grrrs

12-04-2008, 01:24 PM

For a clean install I would try to get a sensor into the radiator. I am assuming that this is for a sending unit that is for the stock idiot light? If you are using an aftermarket gauge the sender will fit into the passenger head with an adapter.

Andrew

x2. I believe the LSx has metric threads vs std pipe threads on classic motors. I know when I did an LS1 into a 1990 Chevy truck, we used an adapter, and used the stock guages/sending unit. I don't remember where the Truck owner found the adapter. I will look into it.

b-man

12-04-2008, 10:51 PM

Thanks for the input guys, any help finding a source for the temp fitting adapter would be much appreciated.

Today I ordered up a set of Corvette C6 Z51 330 mm (13") rear brakes with the internal drum parking brake, along with a set of Lokar E-brake cables and all of the FlexKORE™ braided stainless brake lines I need. The salesman I spoke to (Tobin) at KORE3 was super-helpful and knew every single little detail about what he was selling.

I bought all OEM stuff, the only small upgrade was a set of ceramic brake pads. I figured that the stock Corvette brakes will be more than enough for my needs. The KORE3 website doesn't currently list the availability of a rear brake kit for a 10-bolt rear end with bolt-in axles, but I called them and found out they do have a kit for my '71 -'72 Olds/Buick 10-bolt rear. While I was on the phone I figured I'd order up my kit.

Haven't yet decided what to do up front yet for brakes, I'm still throwing around the idea of a set of ATS spindles and adjustable upper control arms.

Question for Andrew: Do your upper control arms have the high-durometer rubber bushings or the racing bushings?

Thanks, Bart

Karch

12-05-2008, 03:09 AM

andrewb70

12-05-2008, 01:05 PM

....

Haven't yet decided what to do up front yet for brakes, I'm still throwing around the idea of a set of ATS spindles and adjustable upper control arms.

Question for Andrew: Do your upper control arms have the high-durometer rubber bushings or the racing bushings?

Thanks, Bart

I am using the "race" bushings. They have grease fittings and very smooth action.

If you are doing the front brakes, now is the time to get the ATS spindles. Why spend money on brakes now if you know that you will be changing spindles at some future time?

Andrew

b-man

12-05-2008, 10:21 PM

Thanks for the control arm info Andrew, I just may decide to buy a set like yours.

At this point I will have to run the 12" B-body front brakes that are already on the car for a while, I really need to focus my funds on the trans/converter/wiring/air conditioning before I can do anything at all to the front end.

I really never plannned on the rear end upgrade along with a set of new wheels and tires, but things have a way of snowballing on you when you're attempting to build something that's really nice.:D

When it's time to call KORE3 again I'll be putting my new 14" front disc brakes on a set of ATS spindles for sure. :thumbup:

b-man

12-06-2008, 02:43 AM

.....were waiting for me in my driveway when I came home from work today.

They are finished in a very nice matte black paint, just a slight amount of gloss. Painted wheels are really easy to care for, just a quick going over with the wash mitt and you're done.

I really like the way the 12 spokes protrude just past the edge of the rim near the wheel center. The casting quality on these wheels is second to none in my opinion.

I bought a set of General Exclaim UHP tires, mainly because I could afford them. A very good tire for the price, I have set of them (225/40-18) on one of my daily drivers too and I've been quite happy with them.

245/40-18 for the front, same size as a C6 Corvette front tire.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/OZRacingBlackpaintedwheelsfor64T-2.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/OZRacingBlackpaintedwheelsfor64T-3.jpg

275/40-18 for the rear, plenty of tire for my needs. Not much smaller than the 285/35-19 used on the C6 and almost the same height.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/OZRacingBlackpaintedwheelsfor64T-5.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/OZRacingBlackpaintedwheelsfor64T-4.jpg

New front wheel adapters, 1.063" thick (27 mm). I had them made both hub-centric and wheel-centric. I'll need to put the front hubs on a lathe and slightly turn down the O.D. of the rough cast part closest to the dust cap, the I.D. of the wheel-centric lip on the adapter interferes by just a hair. A tapered-seat OEM 7/16-20 lugnut will attach them to the 12" B-body front hub/rotor, M12X1.5 is the stud thread size on these adapters.

These are definitely top-quality parts, I'll sleep just fine knowing these are on my car.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02329.jpg

wheelspin

12-06-2008, 04:47 PM

b-man

12-06-2008, 05:05 PM

Hey Bart,

Looks like I'm falling behind in the G machine competition :D. Impressive chassis, rolling stock, and braking setup. Those wheel adapters are way too pretty to hide behind those killer OZ hoops ;).

LesHey Les,

I'm doing my best with my limited budget and the amount of time I have to invest in the Tempest project. More than anything I just want a cool car that will at least do some things well.

While the weather's still warm (mid-'70s) I'm spending today sanding down the floorpans with 180 grit wet paper so the POR-15 will stick to the non-rusted areas. After I finish eating lunch I'll be applying some Metal Prep to etch the rusty areas in preparation for tomorrow's all-day POR-15 application marathon.:gag:

With any luck after these mods to my car I'll be able to keep up with you in your T/A or Spyder on one of our canyon runs.:eek:

Thanks for the kind words.

Bart

fgs0347

12-07-2008, 04:54 PM

b-man

12-07-2008, 05:42 PM

First off, I would like to say I LOVE the concept that you're going for with the resto-mod '64. I'm preparing to do the same with my '69 LeMans. Needless to say I'll be watching this one very closely.

On that note I've got a couple of philisophocal questions for you:

1) Why did you choose to go with the crate motor instead of (for example) a used truck motor or a used LS-2.
2) I noticed that you're making provisions to use the original-era mechanical guages. Are there vendors that convert original style guages to electronic such that they would work with a newer PCM? Or is that not an option..
3) For the wheel/tire combo, have you considered (although they are pricey) the wheel vintiques steel or aluminum aftermarket wheels? They have the original look, but come in 17" and larger for better handling.

I'll probably have more as time moves on, but again, I love what you're doing!

:)

Thanks for the kind words friend.:o

1) I chose a spankin' new LS3 engine because for one thing I know where it's been, and it comes with a 24 month/24K mile warranty. A lot of salvage yards want way too much for these 6.2 liter engines. If you don't buy a Corvette version you'll still have to spend a fair amount of dough to undo all of the truck stuff that won't fit in with the swap parameters.

2) At this point I'm not sure of my gauging options, I really haven't researched that one important detail as of right now.

3) The steel wheels are just too heavy, period. My current 17X8s weigh 37# bare, with a 235/45-17 tire they weigh 56# :eek:. I considered having a new pair of 17X9" rear steelies made to match my current set so I could continue the same look. However after looking at the cost ($209 each plus painting) and the need for new tires I was already halfway to a set a new lightweight 18X9s and tires.

I'd bet the 18" wheels I bought are far lighter than any of the Wheel Vintiques aluminum 17" wheels, plus I just don't care for the styling of them anyways.

My Tempest really needs a set of black wheels for it to look 'right' to me, I really couldn't be any happier with ones I bought. They were somewhat pricey at $358 each, I bought 5 of them. Not a bad price for a very nice-looking high-quality cast wheel that weighs only 20.8# bare, 45.8# total w/tire for each front and 47.8# for the rear.

Mr_GTO

12-10-2008, 04:03 PM

Simply awesome. I am also taking notes...

455HOGT37

12-11-2008, 10:59 PM

Bart,

Glad you went with the "correct" bolt circle. Lots of the Holden "GTO" guys (5 x 120mm) run Corvette or other 4.75 BC wheels and just hope for the best... Just because no one has lost a wheel (yet) doesn't mean its a good idea to force the studs sideways. Wrong is wrong.

Great progress BTW!

b-man

12-13-2008, 01:25 AM

Picked up the seats from the upholstery shop today.

I'm pretty happy with the work, the original colors and fabric patterns were fairly closely duplicated. I had the work done by a small one-man shop that's local to me.

I know the stock front bench seat is far from ideal for a lot of hard cornering, but it has the look I want for the car and I won't be changing it anytime soon.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02352.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02353.jpg

marauder

12-14-2008, 03:21 PM

I really like what you are doing with your Tempest and now find myself looking at '64 Tempests and LeMans verts for sales and pondering a future project. I should probably unsubscribe from this thread right now!!! :cool:

b-man

12-14-2008, 07:32 PM

.....to the front hubs so the wheel adapters would fit.

The outermost portion of the hub needed to be ground down a bit so the wheel-centric ring that's machined on the wheel side of the adapter would slip over the hub.

I did most of the material removal with a die grinder, if the 12" rotor would have fit on one of the lathes we have at work I would have used that method instead. Doing it this way was more labor-intensive, but it did save me the trouble of taking the rotors off and the cost of replacing the wheel bearing seals.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02358-1.jpg

The rough cast surface (a spare rotor is shown here) needed to be dressed down about .040" on the diameter, so around .020" of material needed to be removed all around. The outer hub strength was not compromised in any way, the end result looks like it was done only for the sake of cosmetics.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02359-1.jpg

Another small but important job out of the way.:)

Stuart

12-15-2008, 02:11 PM

The seats turned out really nice!

68Prix

12-16-2008, 01:10 PM

I agree those seats look great. I am enjoying the progress you are making on the car. Pat

Overkillphil

12-16-2008, 03:45 PM

Is that fiberglass mesh the same stuff used for spackling drywall joints?

b-man

12-16-2008, 10:21 PM

The seats turned out really nice!
I agree those seats look great. I am enjoying the progress you are making on the car. Pat

Thanks guys, I really like the way the original Tempest upholstery looks. The front bench will look just right with the beautiful slender chrome column shift lever these cars came with. Other than the wide wheels and tires this car will look fairly sedate overall, and even then the black 18" wheels won't really stand out too much at first glance.

Is that fiberglass mesh the same stuff used for spackling drywall joints?Not that I'm aware of. I bought this fiberglass cloth from a hardware store about 20 years ago and it was cut off of a pretty wide roll. It's the same type of cloth you'd use to repair a fiberglass boat.

On the same subject, after pulling all of the duct tape off the bottom of the floorpans I noticed a few small holes had opened up. It's hard to get a patch down in every single bad spot. The very smallest holes that didn't have any duct tape at all underneath them filled up just fine due to the high solids content of the silver POR-15.

It's easy to miss a couple of holes here and there due to the convoluted shape of the floorpan stamping. Once you get going with the thick silver POR-15 it covers up some of the holes that would have needed a little patch, the duct tape did a great job keeping the POR-15 from coming through.

I'll go back and sand the spots that need touching up and apply a little more POR-15 and add a few more small patches. A couple of the already hardened patches need another coat of POR-15 to fill them in all the way, you just can't tell until the duct tape on the back side has been pulled off.

Overall still an excellent repair job, the POR-15 paint is a great product. :thumbup:

b-man

12-17-2008, 12:14 AM

.....will be required to get the LS3 engine in the car.

So I spent some more money, what else? :D

Ordered up a new SS3600 245 mm (9.5") lock-up converter from YANK Performance Converters: http://www.converter.cc/converters/street/GM/1/ They're on sale right now for $725 with free shipping. This one should flash to about 3200 behind the LS3 according to Dave at YANK, it's their most popular converter.

Street/Strip Super Stock 3600 Converter description from the YANK site:

245mm very high stall torque ratio. 3600 stall, 2.50 STR
Lightweight billet cover

Rather than swap to a bigger cam I spent about the same money on a torque converter. A good converter is an absolute must for anyone with a performance car running an automatic trans.

I had them send the new converter over to Finish Line Transmissions:http://www.finishlinetrans.com/transmissions/extremeDuty4L65.htm When the new 4L70E trans is finished they can put the trans and converter combo on their dyno for testing before shipment.

The 4L70E-5 Extreme Duty – Level 5 trans is on sale for 10% off right now, for $2,295 plus $150 shipping (core return shipping is free). I'll have my trans here in about 4 weeks.

I spoke with Andy at FLT and he helped me figure out exactly what I needed before placing my order, a big thanks to PY member Karch for steering me towards this fine trans shop.

I'll have it configured as a Trail Blazer SS trans rather than an F-body unit so the correct speed sensor will be installed to 'talk' to the Speartech computer/wiring harness that I still need to buy. Right now I need to find a trans core to send them.

New 4L70E description from the FLT site:

4L65/70E-5 Extreme Duty – Level 5

FLT performance built pump ( Includes machined pump halfs to ensure flat surfaces, New delco 13 vain pump/rotor/slide kit )
Media blast case, bell housing, and tail housing to restore a new aluminum finish. Prep case for assembly.
FLT sleeved input drum
FLT beast shell kit w/bearing
GM 5 pinion input carrier
GM 5 pinion reaction carrier
Bearing style reaction shaft
New reverse input drum
Alto wide 2-4 carbon lined band with reinforced anchor
8 B/W hi-energy clutches w/koleen steels in 3-4 clutch
B/W 29 element sprag
4L65 low roller clutch
Transgo HD-2 shift kit
Corvette Servo
Sonnax super hold 4th servo
Bushing kit
New solenoids
New Internal wire harness ( If needed on 4L70E )
New GM Spacer plate
B/W clutches
Seal & gasket kit
Filter
GM deep pan
Updated aluminum accumulator pistons
FLT prepped valvebody
Set end play to FLT specs
Install new cooler fittings

Previous (swap-related only) total - $9,903

Cost of the today's installment - $3,170

Total swap-related expenditures at this point - $13,073

New seat upholstery, wheels, tires, wheel adapters and rear brakes not included.:o

Short list of needed items:

Vintage Air setup
Speartech engine/trans controller and harness
Driveshaft
Corporate 8.5" 10-bolt rear end (still on order)
New windshield
Floor insulation

This hobby can be expensive if you're trying to build something nice.;)

krisr

12-17-2008, 06:06 AM

Bart, dont care what anyone says, this is one of the most enjoyable threads i've read on PY in a while and I can without hesitation say that I would be doing the same swap in my current car (equipped with a multiport EFI 400" Pontiac) if someone bought the engine or god forbid something broke inside it.

Hat goes off to you sir.

Please, continue :D

Karch

12-17-2008, 06:27 PM

b-man

12-17-2008, 11:57 PM

.....that I needed for the 4L70E trans and the rear suspension upgrade.

Ordered a Shiftworks tailhousing that will allow me to run the original cable-driven speedometer along with the electronic speed sensor. They get $495 for this plus $15 shipping, I had it sent directly to FLT so they could install it during the trans build.

I had my choice of this or an electric motor to drive the speedo for a couple hundred dollars less, I figured the mechanical drive would be more trouble-free in the long run.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/Tech/4l60e-4.jpg

I also decided to buy a set of Currie Currectrac® control arms for the rear suspension. These feature Currie's Johnny Joint® which allow a full 30 degrees of articulation on the chassis end of the arms. This joint is fully greasable and rebuildable.

The upper arms will allow me to adjust the pinion angle.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/Tech/ce7011c.jpg

The lower arms are made from lightweight billet aluminum, both the urethane bushing and Johnny Joint® are greaseable.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/Tech/ce7011LA.jpg

Today's swap-related expenditure - $510

New swap-related total - $13,583

It's going to be a lot of fun when it's time to get this all put together. :cool:

Karch

12-18-2008, 02:45 AM

... I had it sent directly to FLT so they could install it during the trans build.

Probably a great move!

scott mills

12-18-2008, 09:43 PM

I just put the Currie Currectrac upper and lower control arms in my car a few weeks ago. They are very nice units.

68Prix

12-19-2008, 12:40 AM

For sure I'd hate to see people pulling numbers matching engines out of GTOs, TAs or SD Catalinas in favor of an LSx, but there are plenty of "ordinary" Tempests, Birds, and so forth that can be so modified. IMHO

I could not agree more. I love concours cars, but they are getting rare to see out.
I never cared for these type of swaps before, but a lot has changed in the last 10 years. This is going to be one fun car, get mileage, looks and just fun. The best part is this car is going to see miles and miles. I can't wait to see it done. About the only thing I would do different, mine would be a 6 speed. Now, I better not get dreaming to much, I got enough projects, :) . Pat

Karch

12-19-2008, 03:27 AM

Ever see what happens to these motors when you add a little cam? LT headers help as well.

Then, add a blower or twin turbos and watch out.

The aluminum blocks are really quite strong for being out of aluminum. And, you can get an iron 6.0L block quite cheap if you feel the need under boost.

b-man

12-19-2008, 10:47 PM

.....shopping today, I ordered up a new wiring harness and controller for the Tempest project.

I send an email last night to Speartech http://speartech.com/ detailing my needs. However I decided to call them today before I had a chance to read their very quick and detailed email response to discuss my needs and place my order.

Contents of the email response I received from John at Speartech:

Here's an overview of what we offer:

This package was specifically developed for the new 2006-2008 LS2, LS3, LS7 crate engines with the 58X crankshaft sensor. The complete LSx/4L70E custom stand alone wiring harness and computer package sells for $1695.00.

The package includes the following:

A new custom length, stand-alone LSx/4L70E wiring harness. The harness includes a check engine light, diagnostic connector, fuel pump relay, fuse block, and labeled wires for easy hookup to the battery, ignition switch, and fuel pump. Wires are also included for tach, speed, A/C, cooling fan relays, and cruise control functions where applicable. These custom stand alone harnesses are built for full function, closed loop control, and designed for non-emissions use (no post-cat O2's, purge canister, or fuel tank evap interface). Our harnesses can be built to your desired length specifications.

The package comes with the GM LSx ECM (engine control module) and TCM (transmission control module) fully programmed for your application including: VATS (vehicle anti-theft system) removal, emissions equipment removal (whatever you don’t need or are not using on your swap such as: catalytic converters, rear O2 sensors, fuel tank pressure, EVAP), torque management removal, gear ratio and tire size, etc.

The reprogramming lets your new engine run properly without the “check engine” light being on unless there is a problem with the engine that needs to be addressed.

Since the LSx is an Electronic Throttle Control (ETC) engine, the electronic pedal is also included in the package.

As with all Speartech packages our systems can be serviced with any late model diagnostic equipment designed for GM vehicles.

Options available:

Extra length (beyond 4’): $50.00

Emissions package (wiring for rear O2 sensors and charcoal canister control): $50.00

Sensor package (includes correct front O2 sensors and MAF sensor for one-stop shopping): $350.00

The harness and controller will add another $1,695 to the cost of the swap, plus an as yet undetermined shipping cost.

Does anyone here have an opinion or input on what is the best Mass Air Flow sensor for my application and how much they go for? I'm considering buying the O2 sensors and MAF sensor I need from Speartech.

Today's swap-related expenditure - $1,695

New swap-related total - $15,278

I have to gather up as many pieces to the puzzle as I can as quickly as possible. There's a lot of stuff to arrange in the engine compartment and under the dash, you pretty much need everything all at once in order to do it right.

fbrown

12-20-2008, 12:41 AM

b-man

12-20-2008, 12:54 AM

I received my Speartech package a couple of days ago. The information on my package indicates that it is setup for an LS2 MAF. The Corvette MAF appears to be a unit that is installed in the air intake ducting and would not work well in an A-body install. A new DELPHI Part # AF10043 (2006 GTO) part is available from rockauto for $98. For o2 sensors, DELPHI Part # ES20007 is available for $41 each. I think Speartech quoted $450 for their o2/MAF package which is probably for AC/Delco branded parts. Chances are the Delphi parts are the same since Delphi makes the parts for GM. BTW it took Speartech about 6 weeks to ship my order. My project is a 68 Lemans being converted to a GTO with LS3/4L70E. I should probably start a thread for my project so as not to hi-jack your thread. It would appear that both of us are facing the same problems at about the same time.Thank you for your very valuable input here, in no way would I consider calling any of this very helpful info that's related to both of our projects a thread hijack.

Please do start a thread on your '68 GTO project. I'm sure there would be a lot PY members who would be interested in your later generation A-body project with the LS3/4L70E drivetrain going in.

I was told my harness package should be ready in about 3-1/2 weeks due to the holidays, we'll see.

So the LS2 GTO MAF is compatible with the LS3 engine? Interesting, I suppose the fact that the LS3 is a drive-by-wire engine doesn't have any impact on the MAF from the LS2 being useable.

Thanks again for your most helpful input. I'll look into the DELPHI # AF10043 MAF sensor and #ES20007 O2 sensor pieces from Rock Auto, this will really help save me a nice chunk of change.:cool:

EDIT: After doing some checking on the Rock Auto site I saw the # ES20007 O2 sensor is a 2004 Corvette part, whereas the # ES20009 O2 sensor ($53.79 each) is for the 2005-2008 Corvette.

Wouldn't the # ES20009 be the correct one since it matches the year of the engine I'm using? Or could it be the # ES20007 is functionally the same but fits into a different size (smaller?) O2 sensor bung that's a better fit where I will need to install it, directly after the header collectors welded into the exhaust pipes?

I can also see from looking through the Rock Auto catalog that the # AF10043 MAF sensor is used on quite a large number of different GM cars:

BUICK (2004 - 2007)
CADILLAC (2000 - 2006)
CHEVROLET (1999 - 2008)
GMC (1999 - 2008)
HUMMER (2003 - 2008)
ISUZU (2003 - 2006)
OLDSMOBILE (2001 - 2003)
PONTIAC (2005 - 2006)
SAAB (2005 - 2008)

fbrown

12-20-2008, 01:57 AM

I'm new to the LSx series of engines and their computers, but for LT1's the only change to use a different MAF was to use the correct MAF table. I was using a f-body LS1 MAF on my 94 Fleetwood with LT1 engine. So it would appear that the only change to use a LS2 MAF with an LS3 engine would be a table change. Anyway that is one of the reasons I went with Speartech, Speartech can give a working configuration for the stock LS3 engine that should run very well the first time the engine is cranked. Of course a dyno tune would probably be in my future but I could put this off while dealing with the many other problems of the restoration.

andrewb70

12-20-2008, 02:29 PM

b-man

12-20-2008, 03:03 PM

The LS3 uses the LS7 MAF. It is designed to be inserted into a 4" tube. If Speartech is going to flash your ECU with a stock LS3 tune, then I see no reason why you would use anything other than an LS7 MAF.

AndrewThanks Andrew.

Which O2 sensors and bungs did you end up using? Since you're using the same headers I'm using can you tell me about how close to the collector flange your O2 sensor bungs were installed and at what orientation/angle?

Thanks again, Bart

andrewb70

12-20-2008, 03:46 PM

Thanks Andrew.

Which O2 sensors and bungs did you end up using? Since you're using the same headers I'm using can you tell me about how close to the collector flange your O2 sensor bungs were installed and at what orientation/angle?

Thanks again, Bart

My GMPP harness kit came with the O2 sensors. I am really not sure which ones they are, but I suspect they are from the new Corvette, since I have the LS7 harness kit. I have the bungs welded about 4 inches behind the header collectors, with the wires going between the transmission and the exhaust pipes. The tips of the O2 sensors point down slightly to keep condensation from collecting in the sensor. Like this:

O/----[transmission]----\O

Does that make sense?

Andrew

b-man

12-20-2008, 03:55 PM

Yes, a pretty clear explanation.

Thanks again for your help Andrew.

Bart :cool:

andrewb70

12-20-2008, 03:59 PM

Yes, a pretty clear explanation.

Thanks again for your help Andrew.

Bart :cool:

Glad to help.

Andrew

b-man

12-21-2008, 08:29 PM

.....for those of you who may be contemplating a swap from stock rear drum brakes to Corvette disc brakes.

The thickness of the Z51 13" Corvette rotors where they attach to the axle flange is .275", the GM 9-1/2" brake drums are only .095" thick.

These rear disc brakes will move the rear wheels out by .180", nearly 3/16". Don't forget to use slightly longer lug studs if needed.

Those of you who are tucking super-wide wheels and tires on the back of your car should know this, sometimes there's very little room to spare. In my case the .180" added thickness is a plus, I was expecting about .125" which would have been fine.

I needed a little bit less wheel backspace and this will put my 6.57" backspace 18X9" wheels within about .020" of their ideal location, it's really hard to get it to work out much closer than this. :)

Karch

12-22-2008, 12:57 AM

Bart, I was told by a tuner that also sells GM engine/transmission modules that you can use the factory modules for your application.

He sells the Trailblazer pair for under $180, though I am not sure about the LS3 module, if it takes a different one or not. It probably can use the same module, just a different tune.

I can hook you up if interested.

b-man

01-03-2009, 01:04 AM

.....today fitting the wheel adapters and front wheels to the Tempest and making sure they had clearance.

Also tried out the spare wheel & 245/45-18 tire on the front, it will have to take the place of one of the 245/40-18s if I ever suffer a flat front tire.

I bought this particular size for the spare because it's spec'd at 26.7" tall, very close to the same height as the 26.6" tall 275/40-18 rear tires, but narrow enough that I'll still be able to use it up front with little to no interference with the front wheelwells. Actual measuring showed the 275/40s and the 245/45s to be exactly the same height, right about 26.75" unloaded.

The reason I wanted the spare tire to be the same height as the rear tires is to avoid damaging the posi unit in the rear end. Running tires of differing diameters on the rear end will burn up most limited-slip rear ends if you have to drive any real distance with it that way.

Wheel adapter mounted, I had them made with a wheel-centric ring to locate the wheel as precisely as possible.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02405.jpg

Point of slight interference, at the rear bottom corner of the front fender. On right turns, the right fender hits the tire here. Same deal on the other side when turning left. Pictures show the 245/40s, additional clearance will be needed for the spare 245/45 tire.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02404.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02403.jpg

After a few whacks with a 2-pound hammer there's now enough room for the spare tire to have the clearance it needs to make turns. Even though the Tempest isn't sitting anywhere near its normal ride height right now this was a known point of interference with the old 17" wheel/tire combo. It needed some more attention due to the added diameter of the new 245/40-18s over the old 235/45-17s, not to mention the new taller spare.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02407.jpg

The Tempest sits like a 4-wheel drive with no engine, trans or interior installed. I'll have to wait until the car goes together completely before I can figure out how much I'll need to trim the front coils.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02398.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02397.jpg

Not much else going on right now until the trans and converter arrive in a couple of weeks, the new rear end and rear suspension parts have yet to arrive as well.

I still have to gather up all of the Vintage Air parts I need. There's a lot of things yet to do here in 2009 to get this car running.

Happy New Year all! :usa2:

455HOGT37

01-03-2009, 12:52 PM

I'm not a big fan of the negative offset wheel "look", but your combination seems to work (not that my opinion means anything). ;) Looking forward to seeing it "in the weeds".

On another note, I just retuned from a two week road trip where the LS3 dragged us more than 2500 miles all over the southwest. Tank - to - tank mileage was mostly around 30 MPG, with a best (Tucson to El Paso) of 32.5 @ 79 MPH average. Not too bad...

jimmy-ny

01-03-2009, 10:55 PM

b-man

01-03-2009, 11:30 PM

Bart,

Perhaps I missed this. But are you going to install the gauge cluster from an LSx donor car into the tempest dash? Just curious how that works. Coming from having NO CLUE here and love this thread. Not sure what Andrew did either; I'm sure he has the answer already.

I was out in the garage a few days ago and just measuring "stuff" from my '00 Z-28 to my Custom S. Your information here is incredibly valuable. I know there's a strong bias here regarding motors, but this swap is exactly what I'd like to do with mine. Just measuring everything on the Z-28 has me very interested on a donor car swap attempt since even down to the weight the cars are "close" 3400(Custom S) vs 3308 ('00 Z-28) lbs.

Can't wait to see more!Jimmy,

The gauges are one thing I haven't thought much about to be quite honest. I'll admit that I really don't know much about modern automotive electronics and how much I'll need to make everything come together. Perhaps Andrew or someone else with experience here can offer some information or insight on this.

I'd prefer to keep my dash as stock-looking as possible, and just hang whatever I need to add under the dash. Not sure if that's going to be possible yet, I'm pretty much just learning as I go here like many of the readers of this thread.

I want the modern drivetrain and electronic overdrive automatic trans along with A/C and cruise control, but I don't want to 'modernize' the look of the dash or controls any more than necessary.

I do have a new Autometer mechanical trans temp gauge I'm going to install, and the car already has a mechanical water temp and oil pressure gauge under the dash. I'll add a new Autometer tach as well to the steering column. But again, I'm not sure what other electronic gauging if any will required to allow everything to work together.

I guess I'll be better able to figure out what I need as soon as my wiring harness and controllers arrive from Speartech. Probably a quick call to John at Speartech will answer a lot of my questions pretty quickly, I'll do that after my controller/harness package arrives in a couple of weeks.

Thanks for the kind words, I'm glad you're enjoying the thread.

Bart

fbrown

01-06-2009, 12:13 AM

I don't know if this would work in the 64 but this is a cruise control stalk that I found for use in my 68. It is available for $30 from http://store.fastcommerce.com/bought4less/home.html

http://peripheraltech.com/gto/gto127.jpg

I emailed Speartech about the MAF and O2 sensors and this was their reply.

"The 06 GTO MAF will work great. You will need the Corvette O2 sensors though. Any year should be fine (05-08)."

b-man

01-17-2009, 12:22 AM

fbrown,

Thanks again for sharing and helping me to figure out what I need. Not quite sure what to do yet for my cruise control switching, I really appreciate the picture and info you posted here. :)

I contacted John at Speartech and asked if the LS7 MAF would be compatible with the harness and controller he's making up for me. John related that the harness could be setup for the LS3/LS7 MAF but using one in a non-factory intake duct would probably require some custom tuning, so I decided to go with the LS2 MAF that John recommends for ease of tuning.

Now, here are a few pics of the 4L70E trans taken by Vince at Finish Line Transmissions http://www.finishlinetrans.com/transmissions/index.htm just before it was strapped down in the shipping crate. Vince is clearly proud of his work, this beauty is on its way here right now via truck freight:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/IMG_4519.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/IMG_4523.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/IMG_4521.jpg

Shiftworks tailhousing that converts 1998 and up 4L60E/4L65E/4L70E transmissions to a factory mechanical speedometer and still retains a functional VSS (Vehicle Speed Sensor). The guys at Finish Line commented on it, saying it was a very nice piece.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/IMG_4524.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/IMG_4515.jpg

I can hardly wait to get my hands on it.

Another big piece of the puzzle taken care of. :usa2:

ponjohn

01-17-2009, 07:12 AM

Bart- as I prepare for a similiar project sometime down the road. I looked into the cruise control requirements.

There are a lot of conditions that need to met. I began studying the wireing diagram for an escalade. I never came to a conclusion but did realize it was not simple, it can certainly be done. This guy does it all time, http://hccperformance.com/index.html , I contacted him. He told me it took them so long to figure it out he would not release the info.

For whatever it's worth.

Colin Frolick

01-17-2009, 07:50 PM

that's funny i had to roll the back edges of the front fenders on my white '65 _exactly_ like that to fit 215/70-15's after installing tall spindles and short upper control arms, i guess the caster increase tilts the wheel back a little

seems to be coming along well b-man hope ur on the road soon :thumbup:

b-man

01-21-2009, 01:50 AM

Today the 4L70E trans and Yank SS3600 9.5" converter arrived from FLT. They were packaged together inside a nice plastic shipping container made especially for 2-way shipping of newly-built transmissions and trans core returns.

My old Chevy pickup always likes to be of service to my Pontiacs. ;)

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02442.jpg

Looks just like I pictured it. :D

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02443.jpg

The always handy load leveler. It makes this kind of job so much easier, I'll never use anything else for engine and trans installation.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02444.jpg

I made this one out of heavy-wall materials and had a friend at work TIG weld it all up for me. I won't use questionable Chinese stuff to hold up my new engine and trans, I've read about more than one of these things failing and injuring the user.:eek: :(

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02445.jpg

Nice attention to detail by FLT, a piece of cardboard taped to the bottom of the trans pan to keep it from getting scuffed-up during handling. I never knew they offered factory pans as deep as this one.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02446.jpg

The old short-tail BOP Turbo 400 that I'm sending back to FLT for partial core credit.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02447.jpg

The Tempest approves. :old:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02449.jpg

Thanks again to the folks at Finish Line Transmissions and Yank Performance Converters for delivering quality products exactly when they said they would. :thumbup:

Karch

01-21-2009, 03:04 AM

I hear nothing but praise about both of those products. Great call.

ponjohn

01-22-2009, 08:13 PM

WOW---love the load leveler.

Can you post or pm me measurements...Tx.

Coming along nicely.

Karch

01-30-2009, 03:24 AM

Bart/Others:

I stumbled across a sale that Katech is having, over at the LS1tech site.

Here's the link:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/sponsor-sales-specials/1047152-katech-stimulus-package-20-off-sale-parts-engines-vehicles.html

Katech is the one that builds the C5R/C6R Vettes and they are supposed to be a premier LS engine group.

b-man

01-30-2009, 11:18 PM

WOW---love the load leveler.

Can you post or pm me measurements...Tx.

Coming along nicely.John,

The main tube is 19" long (a few inches longer might be better) 3/16" wall thickness
1.50" square tubing. Slider tube is 4" long 3/16" wall 2" square tubing, the lifting tab welded to it is 3/16" thick plate 2.50" high with a 7/8" hole drilled in it (a 1" hole would be better). The 3/4-10 nuts welded to the bottom of the slider were welded using as little heat as was practical to keep from making them out of round, I probably cleaned-up the threads with tap anyway (it's been a lot of years :))

Very important: You absolutely must have the threaded rod in place when you tack weld the two nuts onto the slider tube, if they are not 'in phase' the rod will never screw into them both. Remove the threaded rod before the final welding on the nuts, chase threads with tap if needed after final weld.

End lifting plates welded to the main tube are 1.50" wide (to match the 1.50" main tube) 6" long and 5/16" thick (1/4" would be fine). Keyhole slots for the chain were made by drilling a 7/8" hole 1.50" from the bottom, a series of 5/16" holes were drilled as close together as practical and 'joined' together with a flat file to finish off the keyslot, leaving 1/4" of material at the bottom of the slot.

The 3/4-10 threaded rod is welded to a nut at the back end, a flat washer (to act as a thrus washer) is used between the nuts and end plates front and rear. Some 'acme thread' like what's used in a C-clamp would be better than threaded rod, but I used what was sitting around the shop at the time.

Hand crank was fabbed from a 1" wide 6" long piece of 1/4 thick stainless bar stock welded to a 3/4-10 nut. The crank handle is a 5" long piece of 1/2" round bar stock with a piece of 5/8" diameter .049" wall tubing slipped over it, retained by a 1/4" flat washer welded to the end of the bar stock.

Nothing more than a drill press (a good 1/2" hand drill and a bench vise would work too), a cut off saw and a hand file were needed to fab up the pieces. I also had a belt sander handy to dress up the edges.

Your results may vary. ;)

Bart

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/Tech/DSC02238.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/Tech/DSC02236.jpg

ponjohn

01-31-2009, 09:01 AM

Thank you.

Donovan

02-05-2009, 03:28 PM

Jimmy,

The gauges are one thing I haven't thought much about to be quite honest. I'll admit that I really don't know much about modern automotive electronics and how much I'll need to make everything come together. Perhaps Andrew or someone else with experience here can offer some information or insight on this.

I'd prefer to keep my dash as stock-looking as possible, and just hang whatever I need to add under the dash. Not sure if that's going to be possible yet, I'm pretty much just learning as I go here like many of the readers of this thread.

I want the modern drivetrain and electronic overdrive automatic trans along with A/C and cruise control, but I don't want to 'modernize' the look of the dash or controls any more than necessary.

I do have a new Autometer mechanical trans temp gauge I'm going to install, and the car already has a mechanical water temp and oil pressure gauge under the dash. I'll add a new Autometer tach as well to the steering column. But again, I'm not sure what other electronic gauging if any will required to allow everything to work together.

I guess I'll be better able to figure out what I need as soon as my wiring harness and controllers arrive from Speartech. Probably a quick call to John at Speartech will answer a lot of my questions pretty quickly, I'll do that after my controller/harness package arrives in a couple of weeks.

Thanks for the kind words, I'm glad you're enjoying the thread.

Bart

The old fashioned way, adapt the pontiac senders to the LS block = done deal.

That takes care of oil pressure, water temp and voltage/amps

Speedo is a adapted either through a customized tailshaft, or a black box adapter.
:cool:

fbrown

02-19-2009, 01:28 AM

Did your LS3 crate engine come with any documentation? Not one single piece of information came with mine.

I'm attempting to remove the thin metal plate that is attached to the flywheel with 3 bolts and pressed onto three pins. Short of using a plasma cutter or a cut off wheel, I can't figure out how to remove it. I tried a small pry bar but gave up because I was afraid of damaging the flywheel.

b-man

02-19-2009, 01:36 AM

Not a shred of paperwork or instructions came with my LS3. :noidea:

I also have to deal with that large diameter drive hub/plate riveted to the flexplate that must have been used to run-in the engine at the factory.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/LSX%20swap%20pics/DSC02264.jpg

I guess I'll get out my die grinder and take the rivets down enough to get it to come off.

vidguy

02-19-2009, 02:04 AM

I would have expected at least some harness connection info or fluid recommendations too... And just leaving something disposable attached to the motor is kinda bogus.. I guess they only planned to sell these to dealers doing warranty work?
Maybe it's addressed in the Shop Manual?

Ditto on the Load Leveler. Way Cool.

What is that round black plate on the oh so shiny tranny? Is that an inspection cover of some kind?

That is so cool to have all that drivetrain gear in your garage finally..
Good for you Bart. Neat update

b-man

03-05-2009, 11:36 PM

.....as it's easy to get sidetracked on a build like this.

But that's a good thing. I have been hunting down the parts for a complete suspension and brake system upgrade, something I really hadn't planned on when I first began to tear into the Tempest.

It makes a lot of sense to bring the handling and braking up to par with the anticipated power output of the LS3/4L70E engine and trans combo.

I decided to take Andrew's advice and upgrade to the ATS front spindles along with some SPC adjustable upper control arms. The fully adjustable uppers add the ability to make whatever alignment changes that are needed, and also afford quite a bit more clearance for my deeply backspaced front wheels on tight lock-to-lock turning.

I decided to use the SPC lower control arms as well. They are designed move the lower ball joint mounting point forward by about one inch. This will keep the front wheel from living at the rearmost part of the wheelwell opening in the body when a lot of caster is dialed-in for high-speed stability.

A new set of C6 Z06 Corvette brakes (14" front, 13.4" rear) all around will also be here in a few days, I returned the Z51 rears I had purchased previously. The new wheels I bought swallow up these big binders with ease, plenty of caliper clearance. My car will outweigh the Corvette Z06 by a good 500 pounds (lotsa carbon fiber components in a Z06). I know I won't ever have the power or the handling of a Z06 but having those excellent OEM brakes on my car is money well-spent.

Not a lot happening lately except gathering up more parts, and saving money for more. The new 8.5 10-bolt rear should be here soon, after that arrives the last major item I need to buy will be the air conditioning system, which I'd like to install first along with the Speartech controller and wiring harness.

Pic of the SPC front suspension arms, the ATS spindles should be here any day.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02500.jpg

Currie Currectrac rear control arms, waiting for the new 3.42-geared 8.5" posi rear.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02503.jpg

The made-to-order Speartech controller and harness arrived a couple of weeks ago.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02504.jpg

Soon I hope to dive in and start getting things put together. :cool:

Karch

03-06-2009, 12:37 AM

WOW!
Bart, have you been talking with Marcus?

Those are some very pretty suspension pieces.

And the brakes....Tobin?

This thing is going to be a great ride.

b-man

03-06-2009, 12:46 AM

Yes, Marcus at SC&C has been bending my ear and taking my money.

Tobin at KORE3 has been doing the same thing. ;)

It's going to be a fun car built with a lot of nice aftermarket bolt-on stuff, no cutting or crazy fab work that I don't have the time or money to deal with.

Karch

03-06-2009, 03:22 AM

Nice stuff indeed.

You still planning on keeping the stock frame? Just kidding ;)

Colin Frolick

03-06-2009, 11:36 AM

Solid! Man your car is going to be alot of fun

b-man

03-11-2009, 10:05 PM

My forged aluminum AFX spindles and billet aluminum A-body steering arms from ATS (American Touring Specialties http://www.t56kit.com/) arrived today.

They are made to accept 1997 and up Corvette hubs and bearings as well as hubs with bigger bearings for more race-oriented setups.

These are some very nice parts. :)

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02508.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02509.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02510.jpg

Yep, just some more pictures of parts. :o

But you know sooner or later something's gonna happen with 'em. ;)

andrewb70

03-20-2009, 01:05 AM

Sexy!

What hubs are you going with?

Andrew

b-man

03-20-2009, 09:23 PM

Sexy!

What hubs are you going with?

AndrewAndrew,

I'm going back and forth between stock C6 hubs made by Timken ($175 each) and the SKF racing hubs ($380 each) http://www.pfadtracing.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/28_49/products_id/125 .

Will the stock replacement parts wear out quickly if I engage in a little spirited weekend canyon carving from time to time?

Am I better off buying the racing parts in the first place because I'll eventually need them anyway, after the stockers fail after a fairly short amount of time?

Your opinion would be greatly appreciated on any pros and cons of either choice.

Thanks, Bart

andrewb70

03-20-2009, 09:41 PM

Andrew,

I'm going back and forth between stock C6 hubs made by Timken ($175 each) and the SKF racing hubs ($380 each) http://www.pfadtracing.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/28_49/products_id/125 .

Will the stock replacement parts wear out quickly if I engage in a little spirited weekend canyon carving from time to time?

Am I better off buying the racing parts in the first place because I'll eventually need them anyway, after the stockers fail after a fairly short amount of time?

Your opinion would be greatly appreciated on any pros and cons of either choice.

Thanks, Bart

Bart,

Thats a tough call. I went with the race hubs. Part of the reason was that the stock C5 hubs were not available. However the other part was because I felt my GTO could use the extra durability due to the extra weight as compared to a C5/C6. From what I understand the stock hubs have been known to fail from a single track day with street tires. The race hubs last a whole season on race cars with slicks. If it is in your budget, I don't know that you will go wrong with the race hubs. Just my opinion :-)

Andrew

b-man

03-20-2009, 10:51 PM

marauder

03-21-2009, 03:41 AM

So much for the sleeper look with those calipers showing through the open wheels!

MoonShiner

03-21-2009, 10:26 AM

Nice! I have the same rotors and pads on my Aussie GTO.

.....at least I will when I get around to putting them on. :o

b-man

03-21-2009, 12:19 PM

So much for the sleeper look with those calipers showing through the open wheels!Well, sometimes one must make a few sacrifices to better the overall package. Not much of a sacrifice at all of course, this pup needs to stop as well as it goes to be even the least bit fun or safe to drive hard.

Still going to end up looking pretty tame overall with the somewhat boxy-looking white 2-door coupe body with the aqua bench seat interior and stock chrome column shifter.

Besides, this is the all that most of my fellow motorists will get to see much of anyway:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC00841-1.jpg

andrewb70

03-21-2009, 06:57 PM

.....so I unpacked them to check for any missing parts or shipping damage.

Not so much as a scratch on any of these beauties. Clearly Tobin at KORE3 knows how to package his parts just as well as he knows his braking systems.

I decided to upgrade my brake package with some DBA (Disc Brakes Australia) 4000 slotted rotors and Hawk ceramic brake pads. Front rotors measure 355mm X 32mm (14.0" X 1.25") and the rears are 340mm X 26mm (13.4" X 1.00"). I'll have plenty of braking power to stop this train once it gets a-rollin'.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02512.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02513.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02514.jpg

Bart,

You will be very happy with that brake package. I am really thinking about doing my rears this spring. I suggest going with a manual MC. You can get a 15/16" bore MC with a rod for about $30. 1977 Chevrolet Malibu v6 w/manual brakes. If you want some bling and don't mind spending over $200, the Wilwood 7/8" bore MC will work as well. For me $30>bling.

Important tip: Don't use brake cleaner on the rotors. It will remove the dark gray coating in the center "hat" area of the rotors. Use mild soap and water and dry with compressed air.

Important tip #2: Double check the clearance between the rotor and the three "points" of the hub assembly. I had to use an angle grinder on the hubs to add clearance for the rotors.

I also prefer to flip the rotors left to right compared to the labels. This is not a problem since the rotors have straight vanes. I flip them because I have experiences some brake squeal when the rotors are installed with the slots as labeled. Flipping them took care of the squealing. I've seen race cars have slots in either direction, so I am not sure that it matters much.

Andrew

David Holmberg

03-22-2009, 12:37 AM

Bart, do you work for AIG?

;)

Gotta spend that big bonus on something. :D

The entire car will be breathtaking, IMHO.

b-man

03-22-2009, 12:47 AM

Bart, do you work for AIG?

;)

Gotta spend that big bonus on something. :D

The entire car will be breathtaking, IMHO.David,

No big paycheck here, but I am lucky enough to have steady work and spend 50+ hours there every week of the year. I'm very frugal (a cheap SOB) and save my money for what I really want, and this is something I've been wanting to do before I get too much older.

I'll be done collecting parts soon, the only big-ticket items yet to be collected are my 8.5" 10-bolt rear and a Classic Auto Air direct-fit A/C system. I've also decided to buy the SKF racing bearings/hubs for the front, buy the best and buy it only once.

Soon the party will begin.:cool:

Thanks for the kind words, I can't wait to drive this thing.

Bart

b-man

04-09-2009, 11:47 PM

.....for the drivetrain and suspension upgrades.

A set of C6 Corvette SKF racing hubs. I can't run the forged aluminum ATS spindles without these, I went for these heavy-duty parts instead of standard OEM replacments hoping that they'll last me a lifetime.

Along with the front hubs I bought some new MOOG A-body upper ball joints and outer tie rod ends to complete the front suspension.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02555.jpg

New GM part # 12606620 flexplate, to replace the C6 Corvette-specific one that was supplied with the LS3 engine. I can't mate the engine and trans together without this, thanks again to Rich (TURBO BUICK) for the technical help.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02556.jpg

My work hours will be reduced to 45 per week as of this coming Monday due to the slowing economy, I'm glad that I have already collected 90% of the parts I need.

On the brighter side I'll have more time and energy to get some work done on my project, there's a long road ahead. :)

b-man

05-03-2009, 12:07 AM

.....some real motivation to keep moving forward on my Tempest project.

I was actually caught in the act of working on the Tempest by a long-time internet forum friend who I had not had the pleasure of meeting yet. I was all wet and dirty from laying underneath the car. I was really getting into washing down the underside of the floor pans and frame rails to remove all of the grease and dirt when a 'stranger' walked up my driveway called out my name.

Mike (455HOGT37 on Performance Years) stopped by in his LS3-powered six-speed manual 2008 Corvette. We talked cars and took inventory of some of the major components I had for the LS3 swap for a while. It wasn't long before Mike forced me ;) to get behind the wheel of his 'vette. I gladly accepted his generous offer.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02590.jpg

I impressed Mike right away with my ability to handle a stick-shift by trying to take off in 3rd gear instead of first. Those shift gates are mighty close together.

We headed out for a little drive and right away I was impressed with the smooth low-RPM power of the LS3. I had the car in sixth gear at a little over 50 MPH, it was doing about 1100 RPM on the tach and wasn't complaining. I pushed it back into 5th to keep it a little happier.

Mike asked me to find a spot where I could launch the car in low gear from a dead stop, I gladly obliged. Beat on your car? Sure.

The car spun the tires with ease, I let out of the throttle once and nailed it again and they spun even harder. These LS3 cars are animals.

We headed to the freeway to check out the high-speed power and acceleration. I was able to get it up to 90 MPH in a very short distance heading down the onramp, letting off before entering the freeway. The acceleration ability of this base model Corvette was nothing less than astonishing, it's stock other than the addition of a set of factory LS7 headers and matching factory 3" exhaust.

Thanks Mike, I'm now even more excited than ever about getting the LS3 Tempest project done!

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02593.jpg

b-man

05-03-2009, 11:37 PM

.....and more progress.

First thing today I removed the rear bumper and fuel tank, and emptied out the trunk. Both bumpers will need to removed to replace the body mounts. The bumpers bolt to the frame and body needs to move up enough to get the mounts out, so removing the bumpers is a must.

While I was under the car I loosened up all of the body mount bolts in preparation for their replacement. Every single one broke free and turned freely without any penetrating oil, there will be no cutting out the floor to remove any rusted-up captured nuts in the floor pans. :)

Spent some time inside the trunk scrubbing it cleaner than it's ever been since I've owned the car. My full-size spare 18X9" wheel and 245/45-18 tire needs a nice home.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02614.jpg

The spare will sit in the stock location on the passenger side.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02616.jpg

A look at the driver's side.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02606.jpg

The trunk floor still looks pretty good after 13 years, some of the heavier rust has started to bubble up under the silver POR-15. This trunk floor was pretty crusty when I did the POR-15 application, I scrubbed the loose stuff off until I just couldn't scrub any more.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02608.jpg

Underneath the trunk floor with the fuel tank removed, you can see where a little silver POR-15 seeped through when I did some patching right in the center.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02611.jpg

I cleaned the front trunk wall from underneath and the panel above the rear axle, I scrubbed and cleaned as far as I could reach. You can see some more evidence of rust patching right next to the trunk body plug hole.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02613.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02612.jpg

I even scrubbed everything that's usually hidden behind the bumper.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02609.jpg

I won't get an armfull of dirt or grease while I'm working on the chassis or brakes.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02615.jpg

This car's cherry. Moving forward! :)

SergeF

05-04-2009, 12:15 AM

Bart, you work fast! Thanks for posting pictures. This is a great motivation for me to work on my junk.

Silver Judge

05-05-2009, 07:56 PM

For quite a few years, I could not stand the idea of a chevy or corporate powerplant in an old Pontiac. And while, I still prefer poncho power in ponchos.........

I'm changing my mind--BMan, this project is the essence of hot rodding and ingenuity.

So is the project that Andrew B did on his very nice '70 GTO

You guys are way better mechanics and trouble-shooters than I am, that's for sure.

I give a great big hat's off to you for all of the hard work, research, preparation on this.
This tasty old Tempest is going to be pretty danged cool when you're done and I'd drive it any day of the week ...with a big happy grin on my face.

Nice work there and thanks for sharing so much of your knowledge and experience :) :usa2:

andrewb70

05-07-2009, 01:01 AM

.....

So is the project that Andrew B did on his very nice '70 GTO

You guys are way better mechanics and trouble-shooters than I am, that's for sure.
......

Thank you for the compliment!

Andrew

Silver Judge

05-07-2009, 04:29 PM

Thank you for the compliment!

Andrew

For all of your hard work, it's a compliment that's well-deserved and your car is one tasty ride and B-Man's will be as well !

I'd love to drag race against you guys...I'm warning you though...I'm undefeated against big block chevies, 2-0 :)

455HOGT37

05-08-2009, 03:19 PM

... It wasn't long before Mike forced me ;) to get behind the wheel of his 'vette...

Thanks Mike, I'm now even more excited than ever about getting the LS3 Tempest project done!

LOL! As I recall, I didn't even get to complete the sentence "wanna drive it" before you were running for the house to change clothes!

You have a great project going there... I'm glad I could keep the fires of motivation lit in a fellow Pontiac "nut". You still owe me a test drive though. ;)

455HOGT37

05-08-2009, 03:36 PM

...For quite a few years, I could not stand the idea of a chevy or corporate powerplant in an old Pontiac. And while, I still prefer poncho power in ponchos....

Up until recently, I was right there with you too. Having owned 3 LSx powered vehicles has changed my mind however. While I still have some resistance to installation in a factory GTO or other "rare" car, the LSx series engines make a GREAT driver for any of the base Tempests, Birds, etc still out there. I still love the classic Pontiac V8, but compared to the LSx, the old Poncho is about as relevant to performance as a flathead Ford (and yes, I have one of those too).

Fortunately, there's room in this hobby (and my garage) for different approaches.

Karch

05-08-2009, 05:07 PM

Up until recently, I was right there with you too. Having owned 3 LSx powered vehicles has changed my mind however. While I still have some resistance to installation in a factory GTO or other "rare" car, the LSx series engines make a GREAT driver for any of the base Tempests, Birds, etc still out there. I still love the classic Pontiac V8, but compared to the LSx, the old Poncho is about as relevant to performance as a flathead Ford (and yes, I have one of those too).

Fortunately, there's room in this hobby (and my garage) for different approaches.

"...there's room in...(my garage)..."

That makes me extremely jealous!!!

455HOGT37

05-08-2009, 09:32 PM

"...there's room in...(my garage)..."

That makes me extremely jealous!!!

Yep, 5,200 square feet between the shop and garage - lots of room. TIME... now that's a different story. ;)

Karch

05-08-2009, 10:47 PM

Yep, 5,200 square feet between the shop and garage - lots of room. TIME... now that's a different story. ;)

Ha! I've got 5,250 square feet...no lie.

Yes sir, 5,250 square feet of lot, by the county assessor....50'x105'.

Isn't it pathetic?

:eek:

andrewb70

05-09-2009, 08:08 PM

For all of your hard work, it's a compliment that's well-deserved and your car is one tasty ride and B-Man's will be as well !

I'd love to drag race against you guys...I'm warning you though...I'm undefeated against big block chevies, 2-0 :)

Thanks again Sir.

As for racing, I am up for it. I think it would be very close. B-man might get you if he gets his suspension dialed in. I bet his car will be only about 3300 pounds, compared to my 3700.

Andrew

b-man

05-09-2009, 08:40 PM

Thanks again Sir.

As for racing, I am up for it. I think it would be very close. B-man might get you if he gets his suspension dialed in. I bet his car will be only about 3300 pounds, compared to my 3700.

AndrewAndrew,

I'm hoping my car weighs in at 3600 when I'm done, and I'm not willing to bet it will be that light. It weighed in at 3780 with 3/4s of a tank of fuel and a big ice cooler in the trunk at my local drag strip before I started this reincarnation.

That included an all-iron 455 with Tri-Power and Ram Air exhaust manifolds, the intake and carbs alone weigh close to 80 #. This powerplant had to be close to 675 to 700# alone, so I figure I'm saving about 250 # with the new LS3.

But my new 4L70E will weigh more than the old TH400. The new 9.5" YANK converter will be lighter than the 13" Continental I had though so it's close to a wash there with my bet still being the OD trans package will add weight.

My old 17X8" wheels were 37# each bare, my new alloy 18X9" wheels are 20.8# each. So with all 5 wheels accounted for I'm dropping 81#, but I'm easily adding just about all that back if not more with the monsterous Z06 rotors and calipers all around. So that's a wash.

I'll be saving some weight up front with the aluminum ATS spindles & steering arms and tubular SPC lower A-arms and adjustable uppers, but no more than 20# in my estimation.

The new rear suspension parts will drop a few pounds and I'm going to a smaller rear sway bar (1" vs 1-3/8"), but the heavier 8.5" rear replacing the 8.2" one should even out the score there some.

The addition of the new Classic Auto Air 'Perfect Fit' system that I finally ordered a few days ago will easily add another 70+ pounds, I'm guessing some new Second Skin floor insulation will add 20 to 40 more compared to the old original stuff.

But I'll be dropping weight mainly from the front of the car, and most of any additional weight added from the various components will be fairly evenly distributed front to back and even help lower my center of gravity a little.For quite a few years, I could not stand the idea of a chevy or corporate powerplant in an old Pontiac. And while, I still prefer poncho power in ponchos.........

I'm changing my mind--BMan, this project is the essence of hot rodding and ingenuity.

So is the project that Andrew B did on his very nice '70 GTO

You guys are way better mechanics and trouble-shooters than I am, that's for sure.

I give a great big hat's off to you for all of the hard work, research, preparation on this.
This tasty old Tempest is going to be pretty danged cool when you're done and I'd drive it any day of the week ...with a big happy grin on my face.

Nice work there and thanks for sharing so much of your knowledge and experience :) :usa2:Thanks for the kind words. I never thought I'd be dropping a corporate power plant into one of my old Pontiacs, but the power-per-dollar combined with the fuel savings and light weight makes these engines very attractive.

When I get into the wiring of this beast it will really test my skills and patience as I'm really not an electronics guy. I'm really just learning as I go, and so I far I've learned this is project is getting to be very expensive. :oI'd love to drag race against you guys...I'm warning you though...I'm undefeated against big block chevies, 2-0 :)I'm ready, I used to do pretty well driving the Tempest at the bracket races. I have a lot of practice wheeling '64s down the race track with a bookcase full of trophies to show for it, most were earned behind the wheel of this old warrior shown below: :)

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/DSC00851-1.jpg
LOL! As I recall, I didn't even get to complete the sentence "wanna drive it" before you were running for the house to change clothes!

You have a great project going there... I'm glad I could keep the fires of motivation lit in a fellow Pontiac "nut". You still owe me a test drive though. ;)You're first in line Mike. Thanks again for the spin in your 'vette, it was a rush.

Bart

b-man

05-09-2009, 11:39 PM

.....to pretty much finish off the suspension upgrades, a new $300 set of Bilstein Heavy-Duty gas shocks. These are supposed to be one of the best riding and handling shocks available for a reasonable price, by just looking at them the German quality is clearly evident.

I really couldn't justify the purchase of single-adjustable shocks (about $700) or double-adjustable shocks (about $1500) since I'll just be doing a little agressive pleasure driving from time to time and really don't have any plans to autocross this car.

Part # F4-BE3-2972-HO front and AK2080 rear.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02621.jpg

Soon the new Classic Auto Air system will arrive and it will be time to really dig into some 'real' work on the car. The new A/C system along with the Speartech harness and controller will both need to find a home under the dash and on/through the firewall.

Today I finally finished off the window channel rust sanding with some 180 grit paper and tomorrow I plan to seal up the front and rear window channels with some silver POR-15.

Staying motivated.:cool:

b-man

05-10-2009, 09:00 PM

Today I got an early start so I could complete 3 coats of POR-15 on the window channels.

I started by scrubbing the already clean channels (cleaned with Simple Green) with some Scotchbrite dipped in PPG DX-579 Metal Cleaner (same as Metalprep) to etch both the rusted areas and the clean bare metal areas as well.

Then to keep the Metal Cleaner and rinse water from finding it's way down into the body I plugged off all of the trim clip screw holes with some wooden matches (of all things!) wrapped with masking tape so they would seal up the holes. I left the matches in place during the POR-15 application to keep it from plugging up or reducing the size of the holes.

All of the pics were taken after the first coat of silver POR-15 was applied.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02624.jpg

The 3 small holes on the passenger side rear window channel were patched with 2 layers of fiberglass cloth.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02625.jpg

Driver's side bottom corner.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02626.jpg

Heaviest pitting is right in front of the driver. I plan to sand this down after the POR-15 cures for about a week and put down a few more coats to level out the surface for a better seal when the new windshield is installed.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02627.jpg

Front and rear channels with the first coat completed and waiting 2 to 3 hours for a second coat.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02628.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02629.jpg

Right now it's time to put down the 3rd coat of POR-15 before the day/weekend is gone.

I did call my Mom right after the second coat was down, Happy Mother's Day! :)

Donovan

05-10-2009, 11:37 PM

b-man

05-14-2009, 12:36 AM

.....to prepare for the Classic Auto Air air conditioning system installation. I'll need to find room to tuck the Speartech wiring harness and controller under there somewhere as well.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02631.jpg

I removed the gauge cluster so I could have room to work under the dash. The cluster housing itself will be replaced with nicer one that isn't warped from sun exposure, it will also have some paint work done to freshen it up a little at the same time.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02633.jpg

The entire factory heater box assembly and control cables on the inside of the car were removed completely as they will not be needed, the aftermarket A/C unit has both the heater core and A/C evaporator incorporated into a single unit.

The only thing that still needs to come out is the old factory firewall pad and insulation that will be replaced with modern insulation from Second Skin. While I have access I'll put insulation on every surface under the dash and on the firewall that I can reach.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02632.jpg

The heater and A/C evaporator main unit is shown here along with the two separate outside small A/C vents and the twin central vent, the vents mount at the bottom edge of the dash. There is a shallow plastic glovebox insert provided that mounts with the stock hardware. The size of the main unit won't allow the stock glovebox cardboard to be used, a very small sacrifice.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02636.jpg

The other side of the unit that will face the firewall is shown here along with the thick composite/plastic insulated main firewall blockoff plate that comes with holes already drilled for the heater and A/C hoses to pass through. The new Sanden compressor and 2" underdash A/C and defrost ducting hose is shown here as well.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02637.jpg

The factory heater blower motor and fan along with the stamped sheetmetal heater housing on the engine side of the firewall will be removed as well, they will be replaced with blockoff plates that are provided with the kit. The passenger side inner fender will have to come out to remove the heater housing. None of the factory heater parts will be retained with the exception of the stock heater control panel in the dash, it will be modified to accept the two new heat and A/C control cables.

Keepin' on it. :)

wheelspin

05-14-2009, 10:41 AM

Bart,

Just a reminder: you are welcome to borrow my hose collar crimping tool if you wish. It's a lot easier than clocking the hoses, marking them, and going to a local shop to get them crimped. I might even deliver it in order to get to fondle some of the Tempest's :cool: parts.

Les

b-man

05-17-2009, 12:29 AM

.....in preparation for the A/C install. The inner fender on the passenger side needed to come out so the old heater box assembly on the firewall could be removed.

The front bumper needed to come off first, it would have to be removed to do the body mount replacement anyway. The grilles were removed as well to have access to the core support so I can mount the condensor. There are also two 1-1/4" holes that need to be cut so the A/C hoses can pass through the support to the condensor.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02650.jpg

I took off the fender, even though the A/C kit instructions show it staying in place. It's easy to scratch up the paint on both the frame and inner fender trying to get it out with the fender in place.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02651.jpg

The heater box assembly came off easily by removing the last two screws that were still holding it to the firewall right next to the fan motor. The six nuts holding the rest of it down had already been removed while I was taking out the inner heater box under the dash.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02652.jpg

I used a putty knife to remove most of the factory sealer, the temps were in the 90s here today so the sealer was pretty soft. The remaining sealer residue came off easily using some old gasoline that I drained from the old Tempest fuel tank.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02653.jpg

Here's the main blockoff plate that was supplied in the kit being held in place.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02654.jpg

Rather than use the supplied blockoff plate for the heater blower opening I'll use this 4" hose adapter that I fabbed out of stainless steel. This way I can supply the LS3 intake with some cool air ducted from the cowl vents.

The hose adapter is a piece I removed from my '64 GTO when I retired it from the dragstrip and put the stock heater assembly back in.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02655.jpg

I scrounged this factory intake hose and several others like it from a self-serve boneyard about 15 years ago when the mid-70s GM cars could still be commonly found there.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02656.jpg

Another view of the hose adapter and intake hose. I took the opportunity to tidy up the original white paint on the cowl with a little Simple Green. Did I say this thing was cherry? :D

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02657.jpg

Heres a pic of the 455 HO engine in my GTO with the cool intake air from the cowl taken from two locations. The hose on the driver's side connects to another adapter that takes the place of the factory wiper motor, another thing I removed to save weight at the time.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/HSD%20intake/DSC00921.jpg

I'm looking at doing something similar with the LS3 but with only one inlet. I'm going to see if I can mount a stock '73 -'74 Pontiac V8 aircleaner on top of the engine just like the one pictured above.
Hopefully there's going to be room to build a big enough intake plenum over the stock LS3 intake to mount the air cleaner on and still get the airflow needed. No matter what I'll find a way to duct cool air from my fitting at the heater blower opening to some sort of air filter.

Still goin' at it. :)

b-man

05-24-2009, 02:05 AM

.....were two important tasks I took on and completed today.

New Energy Suspension polyurethane body mounts. I used a pair of new reproduction core support mounts made of rubber, poly mounts were not available for those.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02667.jpg

I jacked up the passenger side of the Tempest body first after removing all the bolts on that side and loosening all of the bolts on the other side. The front of the body still came up before the rear even with the jacking point this far back.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02670.jpg

Old mount at the rear of the car.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02671.jpg

Two old mounts at the front below the firewall. The car doesn't need to come quite this far off the frame to remove them.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02672.jpg

A look at the center frame mount area with the old mount removed, right next to the seat belt mounting point.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02673.jpg

The bolt holding the front inner fender to the frame needs to come out on both sides (driver's side shown), this important step is not mentioned in the body mount installation instruction sheet. I took the brake hose bracket loose from the frame as well.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02678.jpg

The steering column needs to be taken loose at the rag joint and loosened under the dash so you can pull it back about 1" or a little less. Another important thing that is not mentioned in the instructions.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02677.jpg

Old mounts removed, in pretty sorry shape. The rearmost ones (seen at the left) were compressed less than the ones closer to the center and front of the car. The original body bolts were in good shape and after some work with a wire brush they were reused after coating the threads with copper anti-seize compound.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02675.jpg

New reproduction 3/8" steel fuel line from Performance Years. They all come with a soft bend in the middle for shipment that's easily straightened out before installation.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02681.jpg

All straight and ready for installation. The 1964 -'67 A-body cars came with 5/16" line from the factory and that is the size you'll see in the PY catalog. Just ask them and they will do it in 3/8" for you by special order.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02682.jpg

After finishing the passenger side mount installation and leaving the bolts loose I jacked up the driver's side. I jacked up the body a few more inches so I could snake the new fuel line into place. After looking things over I decided that feeding the line through the rear wheel well opening would work without having to bend up the line.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02683.jpg

Feeding it in.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02684.jpg

This shot gives you an idea of where it has to go near the rear.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02685.jpg

Here you can see it running towards the front of the car. The 3/8" line clips right into the three 5/16" factory clips on the frame making for a neat and easy installation.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02686.jpg

Rather than run the line through the front frame rail and out the front crossmember like the factory would have I bent the line so it would hug the firewall and head upward to meet up with the LS3 fuel rail on the driver's side.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02688.jpg

After I finished up the bending I slid the protective sleeving that was originally provided to keep the line from chafing inside the front frame rail over the bends. This will help to insulate the line and keep it from rubbing where it comes close to the frame and firewall. The fuel line is tucked in nice and tight so it will clear my column shift linkage. :)

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02689.jpg

Here's why you need to take the steering column loose at the rag joint, the body needed to move upward pretty far to get the mounts and especially the fuel line in.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02680.jpg

That's all for today, I took advantage of the perfect 75 degree weather and got a lot accomplished.

Moving forward.

b-man

05-25-2009, 12:21 AM

.....and drier today. Another nice 75-degree day that I couldn't afford to waste if I want to get this car together anytime soon.

The radiator core support needed two 1.25" holes drilled in it so the hoses can pass through it. Measurements for the hole locations are in the kit installation instructions.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02690.jpg

Since I don't have a 1.25" diameter chassis punch in my tool collection I drilled a series of smaller holes right next to one another. After knocking it out I finished it to size with a half-round file and painted the bare metal edges of the hole. Even if I had a large 1.25" drill bit using one would have torn up the sheetmetal when it broke through.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02691.jpg

Both holes are now finished, the irregular stamping shape around the hole on the right would have made using a chassis punch impossible anyway.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02693.jpg

Drier mounted inside the core support, the 1.25" hole (1" rubber grommet now installed) lines up the inlet port on the drier.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02694.jpg

Condensor is now bolted in place, the 4 mounting brackets supplied in the kit lined up perfectly with the 4 existing holes in the core support.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02695.jpg

I did a test fit of the main A/C and heater unit under the dash. Two existing holes in the firewall serve to locate it and hold it in place along with two small brackets that bolt under the bottom edge of the dash. I needed to drill a 3/4" hole for the evaporator water drain tube and I wanted to make sure everything lined up before I drilled the hole.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02692.jpg

I climbed back inside and removed the old firewall pad and wiped down the inside of the dash and firewall. Also removed the e-brake mechanism and the water temp and oil pressure gauges that were hanging under the dash, everything is now out of the way so I can start putting some new firewall insulation down.

Set my new reproduction Chevelle engine mount brackets on the front crossmember just long enough to find out that I'll need to set the engine and trans in place in order to locate them. None of the holes that mounted the old Pontiac mount brackets line up with the new mount brackets.

Little by little it's all starting to come together. :)

andrewb70

05-25-2009, 01:15 PM

Nice work Bart.

For the fuel line I would get a 37 degree flaring tool and use a tube and nut to mate the hard line with a short length of braided teflon line.

Andrew

b-man

05-25-2009, 11:37 PM

Nice work Bart.

For the fuel line I would get a 37 degree flaring tool and use a tube and nut to mate the hard line with a short length of braided teflon line.

AndrewThanks Andrew, I'll probably take your advice and do that as I want the fuel line connection under the hood to be as safe as possible. Some high-quality rubber fuel injection hose should work too if I decide to go that route.

Today I installed the new Spectra Premium Industries fuel tank, it's ready to go for EFI setups with a built-in fuel pump and tank level sender already installed. The tank filler neck needed a little adjustment to the side, some careful bending put it where it belonged after the tank was in place (easier to do before installation, but harder to see just how much to bend it)

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02696.jpg

Pump and sender unit with the fuel feed and return lines and the pump and sender wiring.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02697.jpg

AC Delco GF822 fuel return regulator and filter unit for a late-model Corvette.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02699.jpg

The regulator/filter will need to mount up here somewhere, as soon as I get a few of the pieces I need to connect everything up I'll find the right spot for it.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02698.jpg

A look from the front side of the tank.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02702.jpg

Tank install is complete, the only real hitch other than the filler neck being a bit off to the side was having to replace the two 3" long carriage bolts that tighten the tank straps at the rear. The straps wouldn't quite reach up far enough so I could put the bolts through the straps. I had to scrounge a couple of 4" long hex head bolts to use in the meantime, I'll go to the hardware store and get two 3/8-16 X 4" carriage bolts later to replace them.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02701.jpg

That's all for this 3-day weekend, The Tempest waits patiently until the next round of activity among the other cars and parts.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02703.jpg

b-man

05-31-2009, 02:27 AM

.....and connected everything up with Gates fuel injection hose, pricey stuff at about $7 a foot but it should last pretty long before it needs replacing.

The filter uses quick disconnect push-in fittings common to late model cars and completely new to me. I bought a 12" long piece of 3/8" tubing with quick disconnect ends formed on both ends (about $10) and bent it so it would meet up with the 3/8" pre-formed reproduction chassis fuel line. I cut the quick disconnect feature off the end that connects to the chassis line and used a flaring to tool to form a bead on the end somewhat like the end on a factory line to retain the fuel hose better after it's clamped.

The repro line only needed a 90 degree downward bend added as close to the end as possible. I didn't need cut the end off the line was able to keep the beaded end. At this point none of the hose clamps have been installed.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02710.jpg

I bought 2 push-on quick disconnect fittings (about $8 each) to mate the 3/8" inlet and 5/16" return on the filter to the tank fuel pump lines. The tank lines come with fittings already made to accept rubber fuel injection hose, the new quick disconnect fittings went on the filter so that fuel injection hose would connect up to it.

I hung the new 2-1/2" tailpipes temporarily to make sure I was keeping my lines as far away from the hot exhaust as possible. The filter mounts on a 22" long piece of 1" X 3/16" mild steel strap, it mounts to the structure underneath the trunk pan that supports the fuel tank. The filter mounting bracket was removed and painted black after these pics were taken.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02709.jpg

After doing some measuring on the engine I came up with the final configuration for the fuel line end on the engine side of the system. I took the line loose from the chassis clips and pulled it down far enough that I could use a tubing bender on it and put a 90 degree forward bend at the very end, again keeping the beaded end. It was bent a couple of inches toward the driver's side and then secured with an Adel clamp. Had to get this done before the engine goes in, no way to get the bender in after that is in there.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02711.jpg

Still need to fab a couple of blockoff plates to close up the holes where the throttle cable and pedal pivot used to mount on the firewall as you can see in the above pic.

Mounted the readjusted the rear bumper today as well, the body has dropped down by about 1/4" after installing the new poly body mounts. That's a good thing because it makes the car look a little lower and every little bit helps.

Old Goat 67

05-31-2009, 04:44 AM

Man, you do GOOD work Bart!

b-man

06-01-2009, 12:29 AM

Man, you do GOOD work Bart!Thank you sir. I try to use as many factory or OEM parts as I can in my builds, within reason. That makes for easier parts hunting and replacement down the road.

Today's task was to mount the radiator and fans. Here's a look at the 24" wide Griffin universal aluminum radiator and OEM replacement late 4th-gen F-body twin fans and shroud assembly from Dorman.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02712.jpg

Fabricated some suitable mounts for the radiator using some old 3-row radiator mounting brackets left over from my '64 GTO. I did a little blacksmithing and reconfigured the shape of the saddle, the original unmodified one is on the right. I was able to reuse the lower rubber insulators that were already on the Tempest core support which is made for the 2" taller heavy-duty and A/C radiators.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02713.jpg

A look at the 4-row radiator mounts that are welded in place at the factory on A/C core supports, the bolt-in ones that I am using now are only used on the standard non-A/C radiator supports.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02714.jpg

The newly reconfigured mount with the insulator installed being checked for fit.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02715.jpg

In order to put the radiator at the correct height in relationship to the core support opening I made some tubular standoffs from some thickwall 1/2" O.D. stainless tubing just a tad over 1" long. Now the radiator core is centered from top to bottom in the core support opening, the radiator core itself happens to be exactly the same size as the opening (purely luck). After carefully moving things around to find the ideal location I drilled the four 5/16" mounting holes.

Passenger side looking from the engine side. This one is mounted directly over the old mount.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02716.jpg

Driver's side looking from the front. This one was mounted 1" to the driver's side instead of directly over the old mount, this is just how everything happened to fit right.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02717.jpg

Radiator is now in it's proper place and held at the top for now with a piece of wire, I still have to fabricate the top center support bracket.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02718.jpg

Fan package with radiator hose holes marked for cutting. The 18" height of the shroud exactly matched the height of the core, good luck is again with me. The 26" shroud width matches up exactly with the width of the opening in the core support too. :)

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02719.jpg

Holes have been cut and the unit is set in place to check fit.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02720.jpg

Looking from the passenger side you can see where I'll need to come up with some filler pieces to bridge the gap between the core support and the fan shroud.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02721.jpg

The shroud will need the 4 corners notched some to bring the shroud in a little tighter
to the radiator, by almost 1/2".

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02723.jpg

That's all for this weekend.

Stayin' on it.

Jeff Walker

06-01-2009, 09:26 AM

Looking really good B-man!:cool:

hellerods

06-01-2009, 10:14 AM

GO B-man go-Go-B-man GO-b-mAN:jumping:

b-man

06-04-2009, 12:20 AM

Looking really good B-man!:cool:Thanks Jeff, coming from someone who really knows their way around a restoration shop that's a big compliment. :)
GO B-man go-Go-B-man GO-b-mAN:jumping:Lee, sometimes I need someone to light a fire under me to keep me going on this. ;)

When you're involved with a big project there will always be mistakes made that need to be corrected.

It turns out the exhaust pipe going over the rear axle would have been much too close to my fuel line, when I mocked up the tailpipe location to see if the line would clear it I didn't have it up high enough. I messed around trying to reconfigure the chassis fuel line and just couldn't get it where I wanted it.

I cut off about the last foot of line and got out my flaring tool so I could use an inverted flare union to join it up with a new piece of 3/8" steel line bent in the correct configuration. I put another inverted flare on the piece of line that goes into the filter and joined it up with the newly bent line using another union.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02727.jpg

The end result is a lot cleaner-looking than before and eliminates a small piece of rubber fuel hose. Now the tailpipe doesn't even come close to the line, in the picture it has been dropped down so I could access the fuel line.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02726.jpg

Old Goat 67

06-04-2009, 05:46 AM

Geez, I just thought I was meticulous.
That is fine, Bman!

b-man

06-07-2009, 02:01 AM

.....and started to mock up the A/C setup into place. I need to have all of the A/C and heat/defrost items that go under the dash in their correct locations so I can find a way to fit the Speartech controller and part of the harness in there. I'll need to find a good location on the firewall for the harness to pass through to the engine compartment.

I need to figure out where everything will go, get it all mounted and then remove all of it. After all of that is done I can finally start installing some high-quality firewall and floor insulation. I'll be using a layer of Damplifier Pro first and then a layer of Luxury Liner Pro on top of that on the inside of the firewall, from Second Skin Audio.

The A/C unit is mounted in place against the firewall with both support brackets installed on the dash bottom edge.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02731.jpg

Heater and defrost ducting in place. The original defrost ducting was cut off on the bottom and a defrost hose adapter added from the kit.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02743.jpg

Here's the 'stubby' glovebox insert that's supplied in the kit.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02732.jpg

After putting most of the A/C stuff in place I started on the controller and harness. First thing to do will be mounting the drive-by-wire accellerator pedal.

Here are some shots of the accellerator pedal mounted to a bracket I made up out of 2" X 3/16" angle iron that's 7-1/2" long, it's plenty stout and won't flex. I drilled tapped the bracket with 5/16-18 coarse thread for the two bolts that mount it to the firewall and 1/4-28 fine thread 2 places to mount the pedal assembly to the bracket.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02728.jpg

Later on the bracket will get cleaned up some by removing some unnecessary metal in a few places and rounding off the corners, a little black paint will finish it off.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02729.jpg

The pedal bracket mounts at the very top inside the firewall using two existing bolt holes (opened up to 5/16") that were originally used to mount the voltage regulator.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02733.jpg

Firewall side showing the two bolts I used to attach the bracket. They're actually stock Pontiac V8 valve cover bolts with flanged heads. Keep Your GM Car All GM. :)

There is also a third smaller existing hole you can see at the bottom that was originally used for a small sheetmetal screw. For a little more rigidity I'll put a 10-32 thread hex head bolt there after drilling and tapping the bottom corner of the pedal bracket.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02737.jpg

Pedal mounting position is very close to where the original one went.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02734.jpg

Here you can see how the original pedal sits directly over the new pedal, positioning is right on the money. Later on I may decide to use the original pedal to actuate the throttle, making that work won't be too difficult.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02735.jpg

b-man

06-07-2009, 10:26 PM

.....was taken care of today, it was easy to keep putting off doing this unpleasant task.

The stock rubber floor mats need some attention before I can put them back in.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02230.jpg

What is left of the old jute padding glued to the backside of the floor mats needed to be carefully scraped off, there are no new replacements available for these mats.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02738.jpg

I set the mat in the sun to soften up the old red glue. I was able to scrape most of the old jute and glue off using a plastic spatula of all things, sharp enough to scrape the glue off but not sharp enough to cut through my irreplaceable rubber mat. Some gasoline on a rag was used to remove any remnants of the old glue.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02739.jpg

The top side was then scrubbed clean using a small carpet brush and some Simple Green. The color-keyed rubber floor mats used instead of carpet on the low-line Tempest model are just one of the features that add to the charm of these old economy cars.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02741.jpg

I spent the better part of 5 hours cleaning up the front (shown) and rear mats. I'm pretty sore after all that scrubbing, now I know why I put this off for so long.

These old car projects do take a lot of time and patience. :)

Wick

06-08-2009, 07:44 AM

b-man

06-08-2009, 08:08 PM

Have you thought of using fatmat or something like it under the mat to keep the noise and rattles down? IMO, I would go with some original looking carpet but the mat gives it that 'why bother looking under the hood' look until it's too late.I'll be using some first-rate floor and firewall insulation from Second Skin Audio. http://www.secondskinaudio.com/index.php

One layer of Damplifier Pro covered by a layer of Luxury Liner Pro. This old Tempest will be as quiet inside as a new luxury car. I have my chance now to do it up right, this car won't be stripped down like this ever again.

b-man

06-11-2009, 12:55 AM

.....is getting some attention after waiting patiently for 6 months.

Today right after work I headed to the garage and freed-up my engine stand that had a Pontiac 400 block stored on it and put the LS3 up on the stand. The cast aluminum Corvette oil pan needs to be replaced with a new steel pan from Autokraft so the engine will fit the A-body chassis, so it has to go up on the stand for the pan swap.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02744.jpg

I'm hoping to test fit the engine and trans this weekend. I'll remove the core support and slip it all in from the front. It will have to go in and out a few times to locate the engine frame mounts stands and drill the crossmember to install them.

I'm also expecting to do a little hammering on the trans tunnel to clear the fittings for trans cooler lines, and possibly some more dimpling to clear the 3 large bolt bosses at the top of the trans where the main case mates up to the bellhousing.

Waiting for the big weekend. :)

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02748.jpg

After putting the engine on the stand I pulled off the exhaust manifolds. These are beautifully designed castings with large clean ports that should flow a high volume of exhaust gasses quite nicely. I wish I could use these, but they won't fit my chassis.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02745.jpg

Modern casting technology at its best. The Pontiac V8 guys who use the well-designed factory Ram Air, High Output and Super Duty exhaust manifolds on their performance engines can appreciate these pieces.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02746.jpg

Movin' on. :cool:

455HOGT37

06-11-2009, 09:41 AM

.....http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02745.jpg

Modern casting technology at its best. The Pontiac V8 guys who use the well-designed factory Ram Air, High Output and Super Duty exhaust manifolds on their performance engines can appreciate these pieces.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02746.jpg

Yes, the cast manifolds are nice, but you should see the Z06 parts! Welded stainless tube- too bad they don't fit. You are going to be way ahead of the game with the long tube headers anyway.

Anyway, looking good! Keep at it. :cool:

b-man

06-13-2009, 02:33 AM

.....after work preparing the engine.

Last night I swapped out the stock oil pan for the Autokraft pan after draining out and saving the 6 quarts of Mobil 1 5W-30 that the LS3 comes charged with. It's the only aftermarket pan that fits the A-body chassis and allows you to keep the oil filter in the stock location.

Both the pan and pickup fit perfectly, no grinding or filing was necessary. I had to shorten all of the M8 factory pan bolts by about .180" (3/16") because of the thinner Autokraft pan rail, the two bolts that hold the filter adapter in place were left alone. The two long M6 X 135mm bolts at the rear of the pan were replaced with much shorter M6 X 25mm bolts.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02753.jpg

The stock oil filter won't fit the threads on the new filter adapter, I still need to find out what filter I need to buy.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02756.jpg

Tonight the Edelbrock engine mount adapter plates were bolted up after doing a slight modification with a half-round file so the 'bump' in engine mount backing plate would clear the inside edge. The file is pointing to the area that needed a little chamfer added.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02758.jpg

The engine mount adapter plates and Energy Suspension polyurethane engine mounts are now bolted in place using some blue Loctite.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/1964Tempest.jpg

Getting a couple of the little jobs out the way during the week will give me more time for the bigger jobs I need to do this weekend. The weather has been nice and cool for the last few weeks, I have to get as much done as I can before the summer heat hits.:cool:

b-man

06-14-2009, 05:13 AM

.....and a few steps back today.

First thing today I installed the new flexplate that I bought to replace the Corvette flexplate that will not work with a standard drivetrain. I took the opportunity to test fit the YANK converter snout into the back of the crank, all was fine.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02762.jpg

The converter was then primed with fresh trans fluid, I was able to add less than a quart. There was plenty of fluid already in it since the converter and trans were tested together on a transmission dyno.

I then measured the distance between the converter mounting lugs and the mounting flange. I did this partly to make sure the converter was seated all the way (it wasn't, it went in another 1/2") and to calculate the need for any shims between the converter lugs and the flexplate.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02764.jpg

Next I measured the distance from the mounting flange on the block to the face of the flexplate. After doing a little math I found that the converter will need to be pulled towards the engine by .250" in order to mate up to the flexplate, a little too far.

It's best to keep this distance between 1/8" and 3/16" (.125" to .1875") to make sure the converter is engaged far enough into the front pump on the trans. I'll find 3 hardened washers that are exactly the same thickness to get it into spec, something between .060" to .100" thick will work.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02765.jpg

Since clearance inside the trans tunnel will be very tight I removed the straight cooling line fittings and put in a couple of 90 degree fittings. I'll probably loop the trans lines rearward and down before bringing them forward.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02767.jpg

Next I bolted the trans up to the engine, hoping that I could put them in as a unit.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02766.jpg

Here goes nothing.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02768.jpg

This is as far as it will go, the pan won't clear. The trans is stopped against the top of the tunnel.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02776.jpg

Very close here too, it's time to remove the engine and trans and separate them and put the engine in by itself. I had read that the engine and trans couldn't go in together as a unit but I just had to see for myself.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02774.jpg

Engine is back in and is now sitting on the mounts where it needs to be, time to pull it back out and drill some holes for the engine mount stands.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02779.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02777.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02778.jpg

Mounts are now bolted in place on the crossmember and the brake line reconfigured to clear the new mount locations.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02780.jpg

Engine has been set back in place on the freshly installed mount stands. I'll leave it supported by the engine hoist overnight with a floor jack under the back of the oil pan for insurance.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02782.jpg

Tomorrow I'll mate the trans up to the engine and do any clearance work necessary on the tunnel (hammer time). I need to figure out where the trans crossmember needs to go, hopefully the original crossmember will work. I'll try to find some time to fit up the headers, I'm hoping they can go in place without removing the engine.

End of a very long, busy day. :)

b-man

06-15-2009, 12:11 AM

.....that the trans crossmember can no longer sit on top of the bottom section of the frame 'C' channel.

I can't slide the crossmember back far enough to get the trans in the car because it hits the supports for the center body mount on both sides. There's no way to put the trans in first and the crossmember in afterwards unless I change the way the crossmember attaches to the frame.

The trans crossmember will need some mods done to the ends to keep the crossmember from sitting too low after I bolt it in from underneath the frame rail instead of having it sit on top of the bottom rail.

I will make a slice the pretty much right along on the black line at the bottom in the pic and bend the end down so it's even with the bottom of the crossmember and then add a triangular piece to fill the gap. Next I will slice it straight down along the other black line and remove that piece so the frame rail will clear, I can use a piece of 2" X 2" X 3/16" angle iron to fill the gap there. While I'm doing the mods to the crossmember I'll search out a transmission jack to get the trans into the car safely, a floor jack just won't do in this case.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02792.jpg

I searched through my scrap metal pile and found an old radiator support crossmember that I made for an old project. I was able to use it as a rear engine support by making a couple of angle iron brackets that attach onto the rear control arm bolts. The oil pan rests on a wood block, this will keep the engine in place while I'm working out the trans fitment and other issues.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02786.jpg

Finally the LS3 is sitting in the car.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02788.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02787.jpg

That's all for this weekend. :)

theYman

06-15-2009, 09:40 AM

I'm following this thread! GOOD STUFF! I am not up on the new stuff and someday I had thought about doing this swap.

b-man

06-16-2009, 12:29 AM

.....the trans crossmember tonight.

Before any mods.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02793.jpg

Before doing any cutting I stood the crossmember up in my 6" bench vise and straightened out the tips. Note the series of punch marks where I plan to start drilling some holes.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02794.jpg

I used a drill that was about the same size as the width of my cutoff wheel to drill the holes. A quick slice with the Sawzall across the end and I'm ready to use the cutoff wheel.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02795.jpg

The cutoff wheel work goes quickly and accurately since most of the material on my cut line has been removed by the drilled holes.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02796.jpg

Next another trip through the bench vise to bend and straighten out the flanges and make them even with the bottom of the crossmember. Finally I used the vise like a press and flattened out the ends.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/b-man64/1964%20Tempest/DSC02798.jpg

That's all for tonight, I'll fit it up under the car to check for fit and cut some filler pieces next.