I finally got one of those Edelbrock intakesand a set of fuel rails that I've seen on their website.Now I've got to sta the yard sales up to get the rest of the parts (hehe). This intake is based on the torker II part # 50565an the fuel rails are #3637. They have two other intakes to choose from.

I finally got one of those Edelbrock intakesand a set of fuel rails that I've seen on their website.Now I've got to sta the yard sales up to get the rest of the parts (hehe). This intake is based on the torker II part # 50565an the fuel rails are #3637. They have two other intakes to choose from.

GOOD GOD! That picture is huge. Sorry guys. lmao

I'll be picking mine up this Sunday from Summit. What's the front-to-back offset between the left and right fuel rails? I'm trying to finalize the design of my fuel system.

John

Not sure what you mean there but. Here is another picture but smaller.LMAO

I finally figured how to resize the pics lmao. So here is the first picture resized.

How high are the fuel rails compared to carb/TB base?

I looked clser and no exhaust crossover??

(Immitation of Butthead) This is the kewlest thing I have ever seen, we're finally going to score!!!!!

Does this new setup come with it's own throttle cable adapter or bracket? It was unavoidable that the original pad got wacked since it was on the runner where the injector goes. I see the inner one is still there.

Just one of the things that I really wanted to see how they resolve it.

How much?

really...HOW MUCH AND WERE DID YOU BUY IT FROM?
ALSO IS EVERYTHING THERE TO JUST HOOK IT UP AND YOUR DONE?

Weren't they coming out with a complete system and not just the intake/fuel rail combo? Maybe that is what is supposed to be released by the end of the year.

I just ordered one from Summit on line. I went to edelbrocks web site and got the part #. went to summits site and put an "edl" in front of the part # and it worked. For example, edl-29575 in the search box brought up the Victor EFI manifold with standard 4150 mount. It cost $380.69. I also ordered their fuel rails Edl-3634 $81.69. Both parts are back ordered til 11/10/04. I think the torkerII version is about $100 cheaper.
Skip, don't need a crossover with port fuel injection. The injectors do all of the atomization. Some systems(ford)use coolant to the throttle boby to prevent ice up on really cold days.
I dont think their complete system will be out for a while. There are alot of companies that can hook you up. Kinsler, Fast, Accel just to name a few. <span class="ev_code_RED">WARNING</span> Fuel injection can and will cost thousands of dollars. Like $3-4 when all is done. Some guys have come up with set ups to retrofit older FI systems to work on other cars. That may be ok for a stock type motor. Not real good for high performance use. Hope this helps.

Not knowing much about FI could someone please explain to me how this system works?? It looks like a standard carb intake with fuel runners attached but I have no idea how this is supposed to work? Thanks for answering a dumb question.... Jim

Awsome. Is a F.A.S.T. system the way to go with this? Who makes a throttle body for it? Any suggestions?

These article will be of interest:

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/77778/

Also the fuel system needs to be revised for fuel injection. More pressure, return line, etc.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/77818/

Jim, the throttle body will allow the air in while a computer figures the amount of fuel to add. The figuring part is where there are a few options avalable but the air must be measured or calculated some way. Thats where a variety of sensors come in, but it's worth it, I'm real impressed with my LT1. I never came accross carbed SBC's that ran like this when I had my '69 bird.

Wilson makes a 4150 style throttle body that is rated at 1136 cfm.
Reportably it is one of the shortest, not as tall as the carb. and manifold together.
If interested look in the article I mentioned above it shows height comparisions.

Morning Jim, I'll take a stab at it!

There are currently two major styles of FI: TBI & Port.

TBI is Throttle Body Injection whereby the carburator is exchanged for a Throttle Body similar in appearance to a carb, with injectors (usually 2 or 4) inside the venturis of the Throttle Body. While an improvement over carburation, still suffers from "pooling" and other carb style problems. Manifold selection is very similar to carb. manifold selection, ie: dual plane is best for street. No, or virtually no changes needed to manifold.

Port FI: Port FI is currently the hot ticket. Port FI uses 8 (or more) individual injectors mounted close to the intake port. On a V-8, typically there are two fuel rails feeding the injectors on each respective bank of cylinders.
Having the fuel introduced close to the intake port eliminates "carb style" problems such as pooling and enables the user greater freedom in manifold selection. In other words, it's possible with a port system to use a single plane manifold (such as the Torker II) on the streed without ill manners as all it's doing is conveying air.. not air and fuel. The intake manifold must be modified to accept fuel injector bungs, and fuel rails. What isn't shown (and is the expensive part) of the FI setup, is the Throttle body, MAF or Speed Density sensor, Computer, Fuel system (carb system is totally inadequate for FI.)

I'm leaving a lot out here, but you get the idea.

From a $ point of view, carbs are very difficult to beat.

From a bling, and drivability point of view, FI can be better.

For fuel economy, FI is hard to beat.

For total HP output, a well setup FI and Carb. will be virtually identical.

For me, I'd like to do a FI engine not to make more power, but to see how well I could get a Pontiac to run at RPMs other than WOT. I'd like to be able to run solid 12s and get 20 MPG with the A/C on.

THAT is what makes FI appealing to me.

Thanks, Steve... now it all makes sense. Expensive sense... http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...s/icon_eek.gif

I still want to eventually run a FI system on my 78. I couldn't realize anything close to the potential of my combo's power w/ the "Pro-jection" system as compared to a good carb.
When all is said & done in several years, there will be a turnkey system us Pontiakers can use; this intake combo is just the start.
Looks like cost w/ retro-fitting a FASt system & all hard parts will cost in the 4-5K range currently. Eventually we should be able to see a turnkey system in the high 2K-3K range?

EFI would be sweet for sure, just not in the budget.

What I can't figure out is how a ~1000cfm throttle body costs the same or more than a VERY nice 1000cfm carberator? And that's not even including the TPSensor or brackets!

I mean isn't it basically the same thing but with WAY less internal "works" inside????

It's probably a result of quantity... I suspect there are a LOT more carbs than TB's being mfg. Plus the cool factor adds another 500%.....Jim

The Holley TB is 2.25" high and the Kinsler is 3" high. A Q-jet is 3.25" high and I forget how high the Edelbrock is. I chose the TII version of the EFI intake and Kinsler TB because it get's me to withing 1/8" of stock air cleaner height for my RA system. One thing to watchout for on the short TBs is that the linkage will come above the aircleaner lip during its travel. This could cause clearance problems with a stock type air cleaner base.

The Edelbrock TB looks cheap IMO. Stamped throttle levers and a very clunky setup for the IAC. The Kinsler piece is a work of art, but very expensive. The Holley and Accel TBs look like good compromises. You can get the Accel TB with TPS and IAC for $500-600.

I have found that one large hidden cost in these systems is the fuel tank mods, fuel pump, filters, regulator and AN fittings required to run 45+ psi fuel. I hope to have mine dynoed by the end of Nov.

John

Another thought is using the shorter one and adding a spacer to increase plenum size. The GM TPI motors have a larger shared plenum.

Trips there is one place that converts 2bbl carb for injectors. Saw a multi Stromberg system. Kept the nostalgia look too.

Skip,

The problem I had with the short TBs was the throttle linkage interference with the air cleaner, otherwise I would've just added a spacer.

Kinsler might be the outfit you're thinking of. They can convert just about anything. They have a picture of a Pontiac caliope setup in their catalogue - talk about retro look!

J.

Thanks for all the input guys... good info. I had a basic understanding but it's much, much clearer now. Appreciate it..... Jim

Hammered, you are one step ahead of me. EFI will eventually mnake it on my TA. I've been pleased with the Torker II on it so far running 10.90s with it. I also have a Holley Commander 950 and TBI 950 TBI setup new in box to use. Thought about having them upgrade it to the new Pro software and wide band O2 sensor so it tunes itself some.

The new pump gas motor for it is on the stand now.

Trips -Frisco TX . I remember when that was way out of Dallas on 2 lane Preston Road! We used to race off Preston and Arapaho when they had it divided it, lights but corn fields each side! Before the subdivisions started there.

Skip,

We'll see about being one step aheadhttp://forums.performanceyears.com/g...icon_smile.gif There's plenty of time left for me to have another hiccup. I researched the whole system very carefully before making my decisions and went low risk (which equals more dollars) on everything. If I have time, I'll try to lay all the pieces out next week and take a picture to post.

EFI system:
Rock Valley fuel tank with inline pump (255 lph)
1/2 supply, 3/8 return
Aeromotive 10 micron filter
Aeromotive pressure relief (regulator goes after the injectors)
Edelbrock EFI manifold and fuel rails
Bosch 42 lb injectors
Kinsler 1000 cfm TB w/GM TPS & IAC
Accel Gen 7 ECM
Accel wideband O2 sensor
Accel dual sync distributor
all on a 400 stroker with E heads and RA manifolds

John

John, I can't wait for your pics. I have a silly question for you..

On these EFI systems, you guys are talking about TB units as if they're interchangable. I know the ECM prolly only cares about Ohms and Volts for each input, but how interchangable are they?

Matt,

It's not a silly question. The compatibility is primarily with the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) and Idle Air Control (IAC) valve that is used. Most everyone uses the same GM TPS and IAC which is also nice because you can get replacements at the local chain store. The Edelbrock TB comes with either GM or Mototron sensors. The Mototron sensors are for their kits (of which one is supposed to be available for Pontiac soon). I'm not sure about the availability of the Mototron sensors outside of Edelbrock. Kinsler uses both GM and Ford sensors and would probably adapt anything you want onto one of their TBs. The different TPS and IAC calibrations are taken care of in the ECM.

John

Hammered, I'd really like to see some headers o your motor. I think you'd be happily suprised over the RA exhaust, especialy if you need 42LB injectors. Seems a little high to me for the exhaust restriction. Sounds like a great system. How good is that Rock Valley tank. The magazines seem to like them.

Cam selection?

Skip,

The RA manifolds are the Super version that are expanded out to 3" collectors. I know they are still not as good as headers, but I have never liked any header I have ever bought so I'm trying these.

The RV tank is very well finished (it should be for the $$$). I like the fact that it has an in-tank pump and baffles, both important for a good efi system. I see too many people reporting problems with external pumps although they are much less expensive and easier to maintain. BTW, this tank is heavy - all SS construction.

Again, my approach is low risk and reliability since the whole thing is so new to me and there is not a lot of data on efi systems for Pontiacs.

John

John, that sound like a very nice set up. I just read some stuff about that GEN 7 and it sounds great. Obviously you got the right distributor to work with it. have you been able to price any of these componants? I have not been able to find them for sale anywhere.

From HPP:
"As with other ACCEL/DFI 7.0+ products the LS1 kit is sold only through the company's nationwide network of more than 200 Engine Management Installation Centers (EMIC). This group of highly trained dealers can provide whatever level of service the Pontiac hobbyist desires. This ranges from an over-the-counter sale to a complete installation and calibration."

So what/where are these "EMIC"s?? (I assume this concerns all the GEN 7 stuff, not just the LS1 module.)

F.A.S.T. is now marketing a complete fuel system to make the switch from carburetion to EFI simplier. Covers street to drag race applications.
Kits include fuel pump, prefilter,post-filter,Y-block and fuel regulator, along wirh necessary fittings and wiring harnesses.

http://wwwfuelairspark.com

http://www.fuelairspark.com

forgot the . aftwr www
http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif

For a throttle body you can use a Ford style from Accufab or BBK but it will need an adapter. These throttle bodies are about $200 from Summit. I made my adapter out of 1/8" aluminum plate. This way I was able to fit my modified Victor manifold under a stock Turbo Trans Am hood.

I'm using FAST fuel injection with a Ford throttle position sensor.

man that motor makes me dizzy looking at all the hoses and tubes! Pretty slick setup!

That motor makes me think damn you got some dollars in that setup!

Very nice 455TURBO -That T/A must haul http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_cool.gif.

QuickSilver,

I am working with an EMIC out of MI that had very competitive prices and who has worked with folks long distance. He is as close as any of the EMICs to me. Summit Racing is supposed to be working on becoming an EMIC, but this guy is as competitive as Summit in his prices for the many components that you will need (Summit can sell the components but not the ECM). He's been excellent to work with thus far, but I haven't really put him to the test yet. Also, I got the dual sync distributor, but you could use a modified conventional distributor and a crank sensor from MSD.

Steve,

The FAST system was my second choice, but I think the Gen 7 is one itteration ahead of them at the moment. I'm sure their next product will be ahead of Accel. Also, if you're only interested in batch injection, you can save a lot of money going with the FAST system. Once I decided on an in-tank fuel pump and SFI, the Gen 7 was a better deal and offered more features.

455Turbo: I believe you've got the best applicatoin for EFI - an engine with a power adder. I'm leaving myself enough excess capacity to go with a turbo someday. First, I need to get this thing on the road and EFI is already well outside of the original planhttp://forums.performanceyears.com/g...icon_smile.gif

John

The NEW Edelbrock set up is really nice and way cheaper than having a shop do the labor to your non EFI intake.

Here is a link to a plenum for the Edelbrock intake. Mine cost around $200, but now its around $250 I believe. www.reichardracing.com/throttle_body_flange.php

Here is the cheapest Accufab 90mm TB I could find online, $229.
www.bbandtracing.com/ACCUFAB.html

I would've posted pictures by now but time and issues have conspired against me.

1. Standard Bosch injectors won't work with the T2 version of the Victor EFI manifold. Took the Edelbrock Tech a while to get the answer for me, but it was designed for use with compact disc type injectors like those sold by Edelbrock. My EMIC is very understanding and should have the right ones coming to me soon.

2. The fuel rails are canted sharply in toward the TB causing clearance issues. Had I gone with a short TB, I could've used a spacer to get it up off the fuel rails. A thick gasket solved the linkage clearance issues but I'll need to modify the TPS to get the proper clearance on that side.

3. The SS lines I had prebent in larger than stock diameters were not going to go under the car without numerous splices. After some serious debate, the company that supplied them is using my originals to make a new set.

4. I've got over $150 invested in AN fittings with more to be bought - another cost consideration for anyone thinking of going EFI.

I'm on my way to China this weekend and will post pics once I return in early Nov. I'll have lots of time to study the Gen 7 manual while I'm gone http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_wink.gif

John

If you guys need adapters machined from aluminum stock, I can have it done right here where I live. The guy who owns the shop is a neighbor and has been very helpful with my projects and is a "gearhead" too; he likes doing anything performance oriented.

Hey Skip Fix... Small world.. not to many cornfields in Frisco anymore. I've been in Dallas for 11 years and I can remember coming out here to eat at the Mexican restaurant and that was all there was.... My wife tells me there used to be a "cat" house across the street from the restaurant... ever been there?? http://forums.performanceyears.com/g.../icon_wink.gif
I'm moving to Prosper next year.. building a new house with a big garage... now Prosper, there's some still a lot of cornfields out there! http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif

I grew up at Hillcrest and 635(LBJ) and remember when they built LBJ. We used to cruise Forest Lane to line up races then go out to Arapho to run them. Back when there was a KMart at Forest and Marsh and they had to close on weekend with the blue laws Saturday night had live bands and burn out contests in the parking lot! Back then had my dual quad 409 Impala that ran low 12s, pretty fast for the time.

I finally got my injectors yesterday http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_biggrin.gif after a lot of back and forth with my EMIC. Here's a shot of the whole sha-bang (minus a boat load of AN fittings and other small parts) for converting over to EFI:

http://home.woh.rr.com/firebird67/EFI%20System.JPG

Here's a picture of the injectors that took so long to get:

http://home.woh.rr.com/firebird67/Pico%20Injector.JPG

Can you believe this little guy flows 44 lb/hr! I really only need 39-40 but the next size down was 36. These are the only style of injector that will work with the Victor EFI. I wish Edelbrock would've made note of that when I spoke to their tech rep.

Hopefully I can get this on the engine and dyno tuned by mid Jan.

John

Man it all looks slick!