I am going to swap a '71 400 from a Grand Prix into my 69 Lemans. The motor is relatively low milage, 79K, and runs well. I bought it because I don't want to do a rebuild right now. While the motor is out of the car is there anything I should replace? I'm already figuring on doing the oil pump and timing chain. Is it possible to do the rear oil seal without removing the crank? Any input is appreciated. T

I am going to swap a '71 400 from a Grand Prix into my 69 Lemans. The motor is relatively low milage, 79K, and runs well. I bought it because I don't want to do a rebuild right now. While the motor is out of the car is there anything I should replace? I'm already figuring on doing the oil pump and timing chain. Is it possible to do the rear oil seal without removing the crank? Any input is appreciated. T

DO the pump/chain good plan.
put the motor on a stand you should anyways
turn it and pull the pan your going to have to anyways to do the pump and replace the seals/gasket,nows a good time to paint it!
newtown? huh? what color is your car?
i mite of seen it.
jeff

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"...And on the seventh day God raced his GTO!"
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Limelight Green convertible. I am planning on painting/ detailing the motor and compartment while its out. What are you driving Jeff? If you go to Marcus Dairy on Saturdays it's likely you have seen it. Also goes to all the Nutmeg shows.n

It is possible to install a new BOP rear main seal without completely removing the crank in a 400. You have to remove the rear main cap, and completely loosen all the other main caps, then have a buddy help you lift the crank to get out the old seal and install the new one. You don't have to remove any rod bolts. Might as well do it if you're gonna replace the oil pump. You're almost there.

Jeff, did I steal your motor, or did you steal mine?... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

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Jeremy- How's it going? Welcome aboard!

Tough call on the seal. I'd probably leave it alone. Do the chain and pump though.

Good luck,

Phil Upton

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Hey Phil, How ya doing? I've got to check the seal to see if it's already leaking. I just got the car here yesterday. Jim said he'd help with the swap, you could come up too and make a party of it.
Jer.l

I would take the opportunity to replace the cam and lifters. At 79K the cam more than likely has at least one lobe going flat. You can re-paint and re-seal the valley cover as well as the intake manifold while you do the cam. With a new timing chain, oil pump and new cam it should run like a dream. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

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BLACK 69-GTO, I Used to live in newtown,sounds like you got a nice car! while your at it a cam might be a good thing to change as well,rockers, pushrods, mild valve job.. but don,t listen to us!we are nuts and will spend all your money!!
welcome! to P.Y.!!

HEY GOATHEAD!..All great motors look alike! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

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"...And on the seventh day God raced his GTO!"
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Hey Phil, How ya doing? I've got to check the seal to see if it's already leaking. I just got the car here yesterday. Jim said he'd help with the swap, you could come up too and make a party of it.
Jer.l <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Sounds like fun, let me know when you're doing it.

Phil

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Let's see, how much money we can spend of yours Jeremy.

- Ditto on the CAM/Lifters/chain
- New Chrome Valve Covers ( good for 5 MPH )
- New motor mounts
- Add RA/HO manifolds
- Ditto Oil Pump
- Add a posi rear w/some gears
- Set of gauges for inside car
- Have radiator professionally flushed
- New Water pump
- Paint accessories ( alternator/PS pump )
- New plug wires; distributor overhaul w/curve
- Add MSD box w/rev limiter
- Have driveshaft and joints rebuilt / balanced
- New Converter would be major bang for buck


More will come to mind, but I can live vicariously through you. You have 9 months to get that thing in shape for a rematch against me on the way to the Nutmeg POCI show at Barberino Pontiac. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
My goal is for you to spend enough money to beat me. Then I can justify spending some money of my own. I don't even think about trying to touch Phil's car, he is in another league.
- Jim Doran -Some Pics of my 65

I know that you said that you did not want to do a rebuild now, but if the motor is out, I would replace the bearings and rings. Doing that, the crank is out and the BOP seal installation is a no brainer. I put one in my motor, and I don't think that it can be done without pulling the crank. I could be wrong, though.

[img]ftp://members.aol.com/gr8one68/gr8one68.jpg[/img]

Jim - Nice words about my car, thanks. But I never really got it running the way I'd like. I think another quick rebuild and a set of ported heads are coming this winter.

Jeremy - Jim has some good points there about what else to do with your car.

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OK you guys have sold me on the cam and lifters. I am trying to avoid getting sucked too far into the "if you're gonna replace this, you might as well replace that" situation. Still considering the rear seal, I hate having a car that marks its territory. If I replace the rear seal may change the bearings. Jim, as far as your suggestions, you'll have to hire me to work on your house to pay for all that. My next job is in New Milford anyhow! I think I can already take your goat.... on top end. Love those 2.78 gears. Great for highway cruising. I'd love to do the HO manifolds but I'm having a hard time justifying the cost for the manifolds and new head pipes especially considering how I drive it. Phil your car IS cool, now if we can just do a little with the interior.
Jer.I

Regarding the BOP seal, It can be installed properly in a 400 without removing the crank completely. I've done it.

Rons right i,ve done it to, The seal is not that bad to do. just take your time!Because new pont seals leak just as bad as old! Make sure to grease it.Me or one of us can walk you through it.
what did you choose for a cam?
jeff [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

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"...And on the seventh day God raced his GTO!"
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Trying to show a picture of the patient. First time trying this, lets see if it works›

Awesome ride. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img]

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Nice looking car goatless! So you're not really goatless after all! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

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Looks great Jeremy !

- Jim Doran -Some Pics of my 65

Nice ride!
I agree with doing all these things, however, the phrase that immediately comes to mind is "there will never be a better time to do it" (“TWNBABTTDI” for short). “TWNBABTTDI” can be a BAD [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img]
My daughter was born this spring and I found I was home a lot more, she slept a lot so I decided to fix the terrible paint on the stealthgoat in my "spare time". End of June I pulled my front clip off and replaced the damaged core support during a "quicky repaint", no problem anticipated to complete before the fall GTOAA show here (Southern California Gathering of Goats). GTO came back from the paint shop mid-July and it looked so nice I decided to detail the engine compartment, with clip off "TWNBABTTDI”. That turned out to be easier with engine and trans out, because with clip off it‘s no big deal to pull out the front and "TWNBABTTDI”. With engine and trans out it was simple to pull the A arms off and clean the suspension, "TWNBABTTDI". It was also only a couple bolts to pop the body off and replace the body mounts, "TWNBABTTDI”. I noticed my leaky rear main seal while engine was on the stand, decided to pull the pan “TWNBABTTDI”. By now the GTO show is long past, but there is a POCI show and a couple Pontiac Drag Days I could still make. However the crank was banged up and I decided to throw a better crank in there, since it was a torn down anyway “TWNBABTTDI’. I called around and nobody had a 389 crank locally but Dave McGarry had a 428HO 4 bolt shortblock looking for a new home, it’s no harder nor does it cost much more to rebuild a 428 instead of a 389 and “TWNBABTTDI”. With the front clip off it made sense to also replace the heater core, “TWNBABTTDI ”. With the heater housing off, a Vintage Air set-up would not be much more work to put there instead, and “TWNBABTTDI”. The Vintage unit however required me to tear my whole under dash apart, and I always wanted to clean up the gauges etc anyway, “TWNBABTTDI”. I wasn’t sure how my heads flow, so might as well have them ported while the short-block is being machined to ensure everything runs well, and “TWNBABTTDI ”.
I have found that there is no spare time with an infant in the house, no spare money, I have missed all the shows and Drag Days. It’s end of the year, my car is almost completely apart but I am still taking stuff off, not reassembling. I am now looking for another GTO to drive because I don‘t know when this one will be ever back together. S-o-o-o-o, you may want to consider what you are starting [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

Tim Baker

Thanks for the compliments guys. Still it's not a Goat, but its getting alot closer with this swap.
Tim, I couldn't agree wtih you more. Luckily most every thing else on the car is done, or at least as done as it's going to get any time soon. Hadn't done anything to the motor previously 'cause it ran so well.
Now that Christmas is passed it's time to start buying the parts. Going to do the chain, oil pump, rear seal and cam and lifters. Does anyone have recomendations? It is a regularly driven car with TH400 and A/C. The rear has 2.78 gears that I plan on keeping for now anyhow (I do a fair amount of highway driving). I'm looking for something with good torque that doesn't completely die on top end.
The Summit 2800 has been suggested. Anyone use this cam? Thanks for the help.
e

I ran the 2800 cam (Edelbrock Performer, same specs) in a '69 GP with a 400 engine. I dropped the compression down to 8.2:1 using 6X-4 heads, the engine had the original pistons/crank/rods in it.

I freshened it up with new rings, bearings, oil pump, and a Cloyes Tru-Roller timing set along with the cam and lifters. I went through the bottom-end mostly because when I got it the nylon upper timing sprocket had lost its teeth in typical fashion, bending every pushrod. Everything inside was still in excellent shape (crank and bore size standard, didn't have to bore it or turn the crank) even with 97K on it. It had stock log exhaust manifolds running through a 2-1/2" dual exhaust and a '72 intake and Q-jet carb.

Running a TH400 and the stock 3.23 open rear it ran 15.07@92 MPH in the 1/4 mile launching carefully so as not to spin the tire(s). The car was equipped with just about every power option including A/C. Not a bad running big heavy car (4100# w/o driver) with a stock 400 that ran on 87 octane. I was plenty satisfied with the cam choice. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Let's go racing!
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