Overdrive 5-speed swap questions????
 

My Dad is having a bigger tri-power motor built (by Wayne Schicantek) for his 64 GTO to replace the four-barrel 389. He is pretty seriously thinking of going with one of these new overdrive trannies while we switch motors this Spring. He now has a Muncie/3:73's and kinda wanted a lower rpm for cruising the Interstate and so on without losing the off the line grunt.

My question is....Has anyone out there done this swap? Was it not too difficult? Any regrets? Any tips? I appreciate everyones input so I can show him the responses(he's got no access to internet). Thanks guys.:)

som2002 I am in process of doing this retro now .. Several here have done this and have given very positive feedback on it.. I dont have mine all the way in yet and it will be a bit yet but cant wait..
One thing many here recommended ClassicChevy 5 Speed for the tranny and kit vs Keisler due to their excellent customer support and I for one can vouch for that.. The guys at ClassicChevy are excellent and trustworthy to a tee. I recommend getting their kit. They have been most helpful for me...If only they could get a better name for their company......

http://www.classicchevy5speed.com/

We are assuming he can still use his shifter console with the new set-up. Is that correct? I know it usually says that on the websites, but can I get some verification for him that it actually does?

I have no console but if did they have a shifter kit with some kind of offset that will accomidate the console...

Thanks Eric, I see on their website that they have a nice detailed walkthrough of an install on a 67. I'll have to print all that out and show him. Thanks for the heads-up on that site, all we knew about was the Keisler one, didn't know that we had other options.;)

Anyone else have any experiences or insight?

My buddy Phil posted a pretty detailed experience here: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...ht=tremec+phil

I did the swap on a 67. Actually mine is the one on the classic chevy site. I would definitely, without a doubt say to go with their kit.

You will have to cut your tunnel to do this. If you are not willing to do major floor surgery, hit the BACK button now. Okay, your still here. What you will want to do if you are going to use a factory console is this. Cut the entire tunnel off down to the floorboard the full length of the console and the a few inches for good measure. Make some marks so that you can line it back up directly above where you cut it out later. You'll thank me for this later. Install your tranny and all that. Then lay something about 1/2-3/4" thick across your tranny. Like heater hose you could zip tie around the tranny at the high points or whatever. You are doing this to get your clearance so you won't have any rattles or vibrations off the floor. Lay the piece back over the tranny and make the hole bigger if necessary for you shifter. Probably won't be necessary. After you have it in place, use a couple of pieces of scrap, to tack it in place and then refabricate the gap that is all the way around the new relocated tunnel. This way your console bolts up just exactly the way you took it off and you carpet fits the contour nicely. you have made you tunnel bigger so you may need to go with a new piece of carpet because it may not reach the sides anymore. It will be the best thing you ever did to your car, but it is work.

Hey, thanks alot guys. This will really help him out!!! And ClassicChevy sounds like the way to go.

Holy cutting Batman!!!!

Why is this paragraph even on the website?

Other options - Muncie OD
 

I looked at this route as I am redoing the drive train in my 1964 GTO for the same reasons, more performance, better highway cruising and just plain MORE FUN! :D

I bought a Tremec TKO II (TR-3550) 5 speed, from www.moderndriveline.com and mocked it up with a bare block to see physically where the stock shifter was oriented and how much "modifying” was necessary to the transmission tunnel and floor boards.

After removing the stock Tremec supplied shifter I ordered a Forte’s (www.fortesparts.com) 67-69 billet Firebird shifter and bolted it in place (the location was perfect when I bolted up a S.S. replica of the factory shifter handle - Bob L's idea) and then made the decision to not use the Tremec.

The reason, too much cutting and modifying of the floorboards for my taste on a 60,000 original mileage numbers matching car. I am in the process of building a Muncie over drive transmission. It uses the basic 3 gear ratio’s and then instead of 4th gear being a 1:1 ratio it is 1:0.86. I plan to use this with a 3.55 or a 3.73 gear in the rear end once I determine the tire size. I see you are in Wisconsin, if you go the Tremec route and you are interested in the Forte’s shifter and a Hurst 5 speed white shift ball w/built in electric push button switch I will make you a super sweet deal (parts brand new, $400.00, sell $200.00).

Hope this helps you out

Some picture of my mods in a 65 GTO, there is one picture with the console on.....might give you some idea. http://members.shaw.ca/rguido just click on the black GTO

guidos, that car turned out beautiful. Nice work.

Thanks, did you see the pictures of the console on after the tunnel mods? I did not put the console in but I am sure it would of fit.

For what it started as, it's hard to believe it turned out that nice. Great Job!

Well, we did it. And a big Thanks to everyone with the ClassicChevy5speed tip. They were a great company to work with, and very friendly and helpful. No backordered anything. We actually finished the install at the end of summer but I just got around to setting a car page up for my Dad. There are a few pics of the install in his pictures on the 64 page. http://www.fquick.com/64goat Thanks again guys.

Sweet car!!! So did you not use a console? I did not see an interior finished pic.

Yes, we did use the console, just never took picks of inside again. Did have to modify the floor as the console teeter-tottered upon reinstallation. Had to build up the floor a bit in the back to stabilize it.

SOM2002,

I see that the motor is a 455 with a 428 crank?
So that makes it a 440 now?
Im thnking of doing the same thing with my 66 Goat and with those 3.73 gears I was wondering how fast she is?
Don

Well, he still hasn't put enough break-in miles to really launch on it, but still it is night and day difference from the old tired 389 it replaces. The dyno showed close to 500 torque, and when in second gear when he gave me a ride, he just rolled the throttle and as the outer carbs opened up it started getting loose. I can't wait to see what it'll do under hard acceleration. Is like a totally different car, especially with the addition of the 5-speed, really alot of fun again. With even more fun to come as it gets broke in:3gears:

Looks like a nice conversion guys. I'm also concidering this for my 66 with a 3.55 rear.

Just a note however... according to Keisler, there is no need to cut your tunnel. They say their 5 speed is custom fit to drop in and use your shifter, console and all stock pieces without modifications. Haven't had the time to search here at the forums and see if this is true or not but it sure sounds good to me. ;) Has anyone used the Keisler 5 speed and have any feedback?

BTW... Happy New Year to everyone.

I'm sure you'll have to raise the tunnel to fit the Tremec transmission no matter who makes the conversion kit. The Tremec transmission is physically ALOT bigger than the Muncie. I'm no expert on the other years, but there is no way it would have fit without cutting in ours.

Thanks for that Som2002, I don't reall want to cut anything if I can help it, as I don't have the tools or welder to tackle it... nor the money right now. It'll be a down-the-road project later on.

BS...... There is no way that is true, at least on the Pontiac A bodies.......

http://www.keislerauto.com/gm/transm...lle_64-67.html

I recently did the 5 speed swap on my 64 GTO convertible. Overall, it went well, but it was not without a couple of speed bumps.
To start with Kiesler sent me a proposal which was a parts list along with all the pricing. This was a very comprehensive kit in that it has virtually anything one would need. In it they listed a 10.4 clutch disc.
When I called to order it, I referred to the proposal number. I told them I wanted to get the whole clutch setup instead of just the disc. They sent the whole package out the next day. The included the entire clutch assembly as requested, but went all Chevy on me and sent an 11” unit. Duh. So I had to send that back

The first thing they tell you to do is READ THE ENTIRE SET OF DIRECTIONS BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING ELSE. This is good because they tell you to remove the seats, console if equipped, and carpeting. Shift handle and linkage goes also. Then buried later on in the instruction book, they tell you “If the car is originally a four speed car, you may not need to cut the floor.”

Long story short, I never removed anything in the interior except for the console and shift boot. I was able to bolt the crossmember back 1 ½ inches as required by not using the rubber end mounts and instead bolting it directly to the porches on the frame rails. I did need to cut two small (one inch) slots to the rear of the existing shifter hole so the shift tower would clear the hole when trying to put the trans on the bellhousing. These were later sealed off again. The carpet, shift boot and console cover everything. The shift handle they sent LOOKS exactly like the original except with their logo, but it hit the seat in all but 1,3 and 5th gears. Anything south of neutral was impossible. The culprit was the angle of the handle in relation to the tower. I took a 3” cutoff wheel and cut most of the way through the shift handle just above the bolt area where the boot would hide it. I bolted the handle on bent it slightly and went through the gears to make sure I could reach them and the handle hit nothing – including the console. After a session with my handy welder, it fit nicely.

Driving impressions: Holy Cow! The car is completely different. Since it is a Pontiac and has the usual torque abundance, it pulls the same in 5th as it does in 3rd. I found myself hitting 75 mph accidently the first time out on a two-lane test road. I now have to watch the speed when in cruise mode. Before the swap, running 3.55 gears, I had to work on keeping the car at 65 mph just due to the engine speed, which was around 3 grand. Now the 65 mph engine speed is right at 2 grand.
The trans crossmember being bolted directly to the frame porches only seems to give the car a slightly more “granular” effect, but that may be due to the trans itself. I’ve put about 200 miles on the car and have gotten used to the more mechanical feel – not that it was any real difference anyway. And being a 5 speed with the lower gearing in 1-3, I found the 60 series radial 16 inch tires are somewhat useless if one applies large amounts of loud pedal. I’ve only tried that once since Kiesler wants to put 500 miles of easy driving on the trans before you go into warp drive.
All in all, was it a good swap? No. It was a great swap!

MikeR64,

You didn't cut the tunnel at all? And if you didn't, was the trans mount too low? I have a '65 and have bought a TKO600, but have not installed it yet.

AG - I am using the TKO 500. I guess the TKO 600 is the same size on top, but am not positive. The only cutting I did was to elongate the shifter hole about one inch in order to get the shift tower to clear while tilting the trans up into the bellhousing. I just pulled this section up with channel locks, then tacked it back when finished. The instructions stated that if the car was originally a four-speed car, then the hump may not need to be cut. I did just for grins do some minor ball-peen work on the area just to the rear of the shifter porch in about a 2x3 area to expand it maybe 1/2 inch, but I'm not sure that was really needed. They tell you to trial fit the trans which I did on an empty bellhousing with no pilot bearing to make things easier. At that point, you are able to tell what will clear and what won't. The part I worked with the hammer was a little close - they tell you you'll need 1/4" at minimum - so I erred on the side of caution.

I was able to move the crossmember back the prescribed 1 1/2 inches, but since the convertible uses a shelf to mount the crossmember instead of having it sit on the bottom of the frame rail I was unable to use the rubber end cups and original clamping type mount. There is only room on the mounting shelf for the original position with no fore-aft movement available. (You gotta see the convertible setup to get a grip on the concept.) Instead, I mounted the crossmember to the transmission, jacked things up in place and clamped the crossmember to the shelf with welder's vicegrips. I drilled two holes per side directly through the mount ends and frame shelf. The trans crossmember is at the original height minus the 1/8" cushion of the rubber end sleeve. The emergency brake cable even had enough adjustment in it so I didn't have to drill another hole and move it forward.

MikeR,

Is your trans mount surface (where you bolt the x-member mount on the trans) lower now than stock? I thought the issue with cutting the tunnel was to allow the trans to be raised high enough to maintain the same as stock driveshaft angle. Do you know if your driveshaft angle has changed? What shifter are you using and in what position on the trans?

Thanks, Tony

Tony,
The trans mount surface is at stock height. The output of the transmission is at stock height minus perhaps 1/8 inch. The instructions said "If the car was originally a four speed, you may only need to modify the hump by using a ball-peen hammer to gain a little extra clearance. Clearly, if my car did not have the four speed hump, porch, whatever you call the bump where the stock shifter fits, it would not clear. They also tell you to trial fit the trans, loop a length of 1/4" o.d. hose over top of it and pull the hose from front to rear to check for adequate clearance. I had one slightly tight spot just to the rear of the shift tower that I bumped out with a ball-peen hammer.
I used the supplied rubber trans to x-member mount which appears to be a stock item. They got the bolt size wrong on the x-member side, so I had to dig up two of those. I purchased a new mount because I originally thought I would have to do sugery on it to make it go back the extra 1 1/2 inches. The only thing that was changed was the way the x-member got bolted up to the little shelves on the side of the frame rails. Normally, on convertibles, they use rubber insulator end cups and a cap that captures the cup/x-member end and clamps it to the frame shelf. I bolted my x-member directly to the shelf, so overall I guess the rear of the trans is about 1/8" lower than stock. I am re-posting a photo that eric65 posted a while back that shows the original rubber insulators. Mine doesn't have those any more and the x-member is at the rear of the shelves. I believe he said he moved his porches back the required amount. I did not want to fool with that since I have things like a floor and a car in the way.
AND - I've cruised the car up to 85 or so without any drivetrain vibration at all.:)

FWIW, my '64 GTO has the rubber insulators on the trans crossmember and it is a hard top. I don't think those insulators were limited to convertibles. Their purpose was to dampen drivetrain vibration.

Rexus - I did not know they were used on non-convertibles. I figured they were only for drivetrain isolation purposes. I had just never seen them on other A-bodies. Of course those were of the C-word. I learned something today! ('bout time...)
Like I mentioned in a previous post, there is only the slightest increase of "grainy-ness" while driving, and I'm guessing that is due to me not using the insulators.

So......

ClassicChevy 5-Speed says the tunnel has to be cut....

Kaisler says minor mods to tunnel if it was originally a 4 speed......

.... or am I missing something between the 2 sites....

Thanks guys I stand corrected on the no cutting the tunnel. I had my 11 month old grandson on my lap while looking at the writeup, and somehow I missed that section. :o

GTONUT - I'm with you... Kiesler includes two pieces of sheetmetal that are to be used when you do the tunnel surgery. Both are still sitting in my garage. :D I guess I was lucky in that I didn't have to cut.

If no cutting is involved....... this will be my next project....

Trying to reach some shops that are listed on Keislers site.....