New guy questions re: Grand Villes/455
 

Hello everyone,

As you see by the number of posts, I'm brand new to the forum. I'm also new to Pontiac cars (in fact I haven't even seen mine yet!).

Have a few questions about Grand Villes and 455s, and yours is the best (so far ONLY!) well-contributed-to forum I could find on the big body Pontiacs. By way of stroking your egos, I can tell you that I've read through a number of posts, and have been very impressed both with the depth of knowledge and the attitude of friendliness and helpfulness. Neither attribute seems common to many auto forums.

I have an opportunity to purchase a '73 Grand Ville 4 dr landau hardtop, with 58,000 actual miles, for $500. The engine is a 455, and the transmission is a TH400. The car was originally purchased by an insurance salesman who bought the car in order to sell insurance to a Pontiac dealership in a quid pro quo deal. It was a second car until the salesman died. The widow hung on to the car, apparently keeping up on ALL the maintenance, and drove it once a month as a remembrance of her husband until last year when she sold the car along with her house to a close personal friend of mine. She didn't know what the car was worth, and had already chased away one young neighbor who wanted to buy the car to drive it in a crash derby, and sold it to my friend for $500 over the price of the house. My friend had thoughts of driving it in Concourse events, but in the year since that hasn't happened. He offered the car to me for what he paid for it, and I said WHY CERTAINLY! My friend is honest beyond the capacity of words to describe, and is also very familiar with cars and all things mechanical. He says the car is in phenomenal condition, and I trust his judgment far beyond my own.

My friend and I will drive to Washington state - towing a 1924 Dodge one way on the way up and a truck on the way back - and I will be driving the Pontiac 1000 miles home to Palm Springs (Which means I'll be paying nearly as much for gas as I will for the car!). I am a little concerned about that trip, as the car probably hasn't gone a thousand miles in the last fifteen years. My friend is confident that the car will easily make the drive, however, and he will be driving his truck back with me. We may be going some time in the next couple of weeks.

That's the history of the car, and how I am coming by it. I've never been a Pontiac guy per se, but I've always liked big old cars (I've had a 68 Chrysler Town & Country with a 440, a 70 Ford Galaxie 500 with a 429, and a Cadillac Brougham with a 350), and this Grand Ville certainly seems to qualify. I've always thought that Ford, GM and its subsidiaries, and Chrysler have ALL made some great cars, and some lousy cars. How does the Grand Ville rate in the vast scheme of things? How does it rate as a Pontiac?

I've tried to find out as much as I could about Grand Villes via Google, and have learned precious little. Same with the base 455 engine (although there's quite a bit about the super duties, and a fair amount on the high outputs). From what I've learned, my Grand Ville would have the base 455 engine. I know it's horsepower and torque, but little else. How durable is this engine? I heard that the Oldsmobile and Buick 455s both tended to have oil circulation issues, but haven't heard much of anything about the Pontiacs.

What can you base 455 guys tell me about this engine? I've read that the TH-400 is a pretty darn good transmission, but know very little about the pros/cons of the Pontiac base 455. What are the best sources of information re: this engine? Has anyone found any good links to Grand Villes that don't show up on Google searches? Is there a good book on these Pontiacs?

If I remember correctly, 73 would have been the first year of hardened valves, and I will NOT need to use lead substitutes. And - since the engine is at 8:1 compression, I should NOT need to run higher octane gas. Is this correct? What's your experience been? My friend estimates he's been getting 12 mpg, and the EPA rates the car at 11. How have you guys done? Also, how do these 455s handle modern traffic? Is 250 hp/370 ft/lbs enough to MOVE this behemoth in traffic with that 3 speed? (I don't even have to ask whether it will do hills and grades well!)

Also, the question of parts availability. How easy is it to get parts for this engine? Will I be able to go to my local parts stores (Kragen, Autozone, Napa)? I've got an old Mercedes that is a PITA for parts. How about body parts (I read the recent post about parts being a drawback for these cars).

I frankly have no intention of engaging in any major restorations or performance upgrades for this car. But I would like to keep it in good running order.

Mike

Mike, welcome to PY!:)
Sounds like you've scored yourself a great (big!) cruiser. If the car has been cared for the way you say it should last a good long time. I'd be a little wary about driving that far for the maiden voyage just for that fact that it hasn't been driven much in a long time.

Pontiac motors will run forever if they're not abused (over revved), same for the TH400. You shouldn't have too much trouble finding basic maintainance parts for your car but body and trim is a whole other story.

That Grandville will be a dream to drive out on the road, the 455 should move it around with ease!;) It won't be any canyon carver but it'll be competent in modern traffic and have a smoooooooooth ride.:D

Good luck with it and post some pics when you get it home.

One other site you should check out is http://www.fullsizepontiacs.com/
Lotsa good info on the BIG Pontiacs.:)

Goatless,

Thanks for the link. I went to it and looked around a little, but will have to look at it more thoroughly later. Do they have a forum?

I watched your Ytube vid about 4 times. Always fun to see chariots that big and heavy pull away that fast. I hope you opened your hood after the race and let all them horses out to graze in the pasture after they won you your race.

I've been thinking about that drive. I'm mainly concerned about a partially blocked radiator that doesn't affect the system until the car's going up a grade. Is there anything else I should worry about assuming all the fluids check out okay? Frankly, I've never had to "de-mothball" a car before. I'd be driving with a truck towing a load, so we'd be sub-60 mph most all the way.

I don't know if the car has been garaged, but it has at least been car-ported. It's been in the desert of southeastern Washington, so it's been in a pretty good climate. I will frankly be surprised if I see ANY of that four-letter word that rhymes with "dust" on this car. John told me it was "mustard yellow," which doesn't sound too appealing (I guess I'm more of a Grey Poupon man myself). Does anyone have a car the color he is likely describing, or a link to the 73 Grand Ville chip set? As for the top, I seem to remember John saying it had a vinyl top, but I can't recall the color.

This car will be clean, and about as well-preserved as a car kept in the aforementioned conditions can be. John says the engine is strong and powerful, but he hasn't driven it very much. Simply based on the "once-a-month-to-town-and-back" driving, I'm concerned about the possibility of sludge buildup in the block. But I frankly have no clue how to check for that. The engine performs quite well on short drives, in any event.
John says he doesn't expect me to buy the car until I've seen it, but in my mind I've already bought it. I aint driving no thousand miles just to look at a car and then go back home!

I'd appreciate any advice on tips to prep this sleeping giant for such a long drive. I considered towing it, but that would mean renting a truck AND trailer, and that just seems a bit much. I'd rather take the car to a mechanic and have him do whatever needs to be done, than give it to U-Haul only to pay a mechanic once I get home. I mean, after all, this Grand Ville is a car, it's supposed to DRIVE!

I would definitely take it out for an Italian tune-up, i.e. a nice long drive on the freeway at good speed, to check her out before the trip. But - other than fluid checks - what else do y'all recommend?
Mike

if it were me, i would get the radiator fixed, check belts and hoses.check points, plugs, wires, brake hoses, tires, etc. pick up a small tool set for emergency repairs. these should give you some piece of mind. tune up items, belts and maybe hoses(if not i'm sure a flex hose would work) should be available at almost any parts store. have a safe trip!

Flushing the radiator may be a good thing. Years ago I bought a '65 Grand Prix that was a genuine little old lady car. The one thing I had to do was get the sludge cleaned out of the radiator as it tended to run hot. After that was done it was problem free.

Take a look at the tires, too - even if they still have good tread they may be pretty old.

1970cat,

Sounds like pretty good advice. I'll just bring some tools along with me (sockets, a few wrenches, screwdrivers, pliers). I've also got a thermocouple as well as a non-contact thermometer that might be handy at reading potential cold spots on a blocked radiator. A multimeter may be handy as well for spotting any charging issues. I'll bring hose clamps along as well, and then assess the belts and hoses when I get there. I despise flex hoses, and try to avoid them whenever possible.

Fortunately, I have AAA Plus, and have up to a hundred miles of towing for any one event.

It just occurs to me that it's quite possible that my friend is planning to use a trailer big enough to tow TWO vehicles and tow my "new" old car as well. He's got a big diesel that puts out something like 600 plus ft/lbs, so that certainly is possible. This would make all the tools moot. That's really his call, of course. I could rent the trailer, if he's partial to the idea. At some point it will certainly be a good idea to ASK him what he's got in mind.

I'm looking forward to driving this car. I've got an old Mercedes luxury saloon with a big V8 from the same era; it will be interesting to drive the one, and then the other, to compare the engine acceleration and smoothness, shift points, comfort, and ride. It also has a 3 speed auto. The Merc actually (on paper, at least) puts out slightly more hp and torque than the Pontiac, but they're pretty close. Sound like an interesting experiment?

Stuart,
Flushing sounds like a very good idea, and I'll probably either do it or have it done unless I can verify that it had been done recently. When I bought my Mercedes, the radiator - which turned out to be 40% blocked - ran fine in town and during short trips, but started running a little hot when I took it for a long drive and an uphill grade. In that case, a flush was useless; I needed to replace the core.

I'm obliged to 1970cat, as his suggestion to bring tools made me think about the thermometers. Having the problem once has made me very aware of "hidden" cooling system problems. Most people don't know it, but it turns out that MOST engine rebuilds/replacements turn out to be caused by poor cooling system performance, and MOST rebuilders don't upgrade their cooling systems when they do a rebuild/reinstall.

As for the tires, one of the good things about this car is that John specifically mentioned that the widow replaced the tires and the battery, and both were recently replaced. He said she had all the maintenance done on a regular bases. I have a high level of optimism that I will look at the engine compartment and see new hoses and belts. I'm most concerned about the radiator (usually not replaced until something goes wrong) and the wiring (same deal) which becomes brittle with age.

Mike

Mike, another good note about the Pontiac 455: ALL pontiac blocks from 326-455 share the same external dimensions. There are some minor differences, mostly in the pre-1966 engines, but for the 70's on up, just about anything from any Pontiac V-8 will bolt to almost any other Pontiac V-8.

This means that your odds of finding parts in stock - should you need them - is greatly increased.

mzbk2l,
Now THAT is useful information. I would have expected nothing less from a guy named 'Mike.' One of my concerns in getting any old car is parts availability. I see that some of you have struggled to get seals for your cars. Lack of body parts is bad enough; lack of engine parts is a killer.

I'm interested in the overall quality of the Grand Ville, and specifically its 455. The SD and even HO versions are the stuff of legend, but what about the humble standard engine? I was pleased to hear that the Grand Ville had a TH400, as that may well be the best transmission GM ever built.

Not every engine is wonderful simply because it's big. And not every engine is pathetic simply because it doesnt' pack a ton of horsepower. In the world of "giant, torque-based engines," where does the Pontiac 455 stack up in automotive history? How good is the stuff in this car?

Also, I am more than willing to trade horsepower for a cheaper fueling experience; does the 73 have hardened valve seals so I won't need to add lead? Is it's compression low enough to use 87 octane?

How easy is this engine to work on? Do things make sense? Will I have to do stupid things like pull distributors or remove engine mounts just to change water pumps? (just one example of "stupid things"). Is there room to get around, or is the engine bay cramped?

I'm sure I'll have to learn a lot about this engine by playing with it, but there's a lot I'd like to know.

Thanks for the advice so far,

Mike

welcome Mike to the boards!! That car will have plenty of room to work on there is an abundance of room under the hood do do anything u like... Sounds like a very nice car for only 500 dollars.. The grandville ride so smooth and they have power to spair even with the base 250 hp 455's.. Its the torque that moves them anyway :).... It will only have 8:1 comp so 87 is fine.. get the carb tuned and the timing right and it will run great and be great on gas too for a yacht!

$500 is dirt cheap, you found a deal ! My bone stock 455 (200 hp not 250 like you have) has no problem smoking the back tire from a dead stop. Like Grandville 455 says, its the torque, not only is there alot, its avabile NOW, not at 4000 rpms.
You'll also find (just like all the cars you mention) its like all old big cars - they glide down the highway.

It does have hardened valve seats as well, so no worries about unleaded gas. The engine is pretty easy to work on, as Grandville455 mentioned. The plugs are easy to reach (except the one behind the air conditioning compressor is a little tight), you can remove the intake manifold without having to remove the distributor first, and the water pump is easy to get to (although if you have to do that, be careful as the bolts tend to corrode in place.) About the only major wear item in my experience is the timing chain and gears will wear out, but that usually doesn't happen until well after 100,000 miles. The exhaust manifold gaskets will sometimes leak as well, but again that usually doesn't happen on low mileage cars.

I agree. $500 is a steal on this car and I am glad that the kid did not get it to derby. That would be an absolute crime in my opinion. Thats why so few of these cars remain today.

I have a 73' Grand Ville 4dr (which is also on the show gallery on the 71-76 Pontiac site). I have around 94K on mine. I had to pay a little more for mine a few years ago ($1000), but still think I got a good deal. I have a little lifter noise and valve cover leaks, but other than that- no issues. I am going to adjust those to see if it helps. I had to replace several fuel lines under the hood when I bought it (mine had set for years as well) and I would very highly recommend that you do the same before driving it. I would at least check them very closely. Since I have purchased my car, I had to install a new brake booster and I changed the transmission fluid/filter.

Oh, I also use unleaded fuel. There were a little over 44,000 4dr Grand Villes made in 1973, so they were fairly rare, even back then.

That yellow you mention is a fairly rare color.... there is one on this link.... is it the same color?
http://www.classicpontiacs.com/seven...973/index.html
There is a 2-door and 4-door here that are yellow.

How is your car equipped with options? Does it have any of the following?
A/C (std or ATC), power windows, power locks, cruise, tilt, Am-Fm, tape player, power seat, power trunk, cornering lights, rear defog/frost, gauge package, cut-pile carpeting, lower door courtesy lights, "Custom" interior option, etc.

Also, post photos when you can.... good luck!

Welcome to the Highway Navy! You've joined the ranks of the Land Cruisers, Battleships, and Aircraft carriers!

i have no problems getting my small 400 catalina up and going down the highways. If I stomp the gas pedal from a dead stop i can get the rear tire to spin.

if you'd like to make the engine sound a little bigger than it is, and in my opinion really cool sounding when the secondaries open is flip the air-cleaner lid! you hear that WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH when they open!

Yeah, $500 is a steal for ANY low mileage car, regardless of the year, make, or model. BTW, the price has actually gone down to $450; I gave John a road bike for his grandson, and he insists on paying me for it.

John says he was thinking of me when he offered to buy the car from the widow. His wife thought it might be fun to drive Concourse events, but that never happened, so he offered it to me again. He could certainly sell it for more, but he's the kind of guy who'd rather see a friend enjoy it.

John knows I like 70s cars and wagons. Why do I like them? Because when I was a kid, we bought a 76 Mercury Montego wagon. We would go out to eat - something that was something of a treat because we didn't go out to eat very often - and then go to dealerships. We'd test drive several cars, and talk about it as a family. I still remember the new car smells and the excitement of getting that big roomy wagon that we used to travel across half the country on vacations. When I see a 70s car, I think about that.

A couple of other reasons I like 70s cars is that they are cheap. Most 70s cars just tend to get ignored by classic car people due to the lowered compression, the big bumpers, and the EPA crap (I think the fact that the manufacturers switched to measuring net horsepower has something to do with it to). But, even though they don't pack the horsepower of the 60s cars, they are still great cruisers, and they still stand out from a crowd that drives things that appear to have been designed from the same wind-tunnel study. I'm also frugal; I'm not going to pay top dollar just to impress people I don't even know.

There's also safety. I am driving around in something that is big, heavy, and made of honest-to-gosh metal. You don't want to run into me. Somebody ran into my 70 Ford Galaxie, and their front end was destroyed. Me? I had to buff some paint off my bumper.

Finally, I like to have cars that are durable. How many new cars will be around in ten years, let alone 30? Cars aren't built to last any more. They've got too much whiz bang stuff, and too many sensors and solenoids embedded in the engines and transmissions that WILL fail and then be more expensive to replace than the car is worth. Heck, I've done that with a late model car myself!

I like the cut of these Grand Ville's jib. I've never owned a Pontiac before, but have always liked the front ends, with the hoods coming to a point at the center. I like the rear wheel skirts. I wish it was a little shorter, but think of the cargo room! I hope its better designed than my Cadillac Brougham trunk, that had all sorts of weird angles. But a nice luxury cruiser that cruises over the road; that's what I'm talking about! I love the term, "Highway Navy!" I'd never heard that one! Sign me up.

When I see it, I'll take some pics, interior, exterior, and engine.

Right now, I know its got AC and power windows. I'm not sure about anything else. Actually, I'm interested in what options WERE available for the 73 Grannies (I can see why one of you guys wanted to re-badge a Grand Ville into a "Bonnie" when I called it that). That way I can compare what it's got to what it could have had, or STILL could have if I buy the parts.

Thanks for the info on the engine. From my perspective, 73 may be the best possible year. I would trade horsepower for lower cost fuel and not having to add lead substitute every tank, but I STILL like having power. As you guys clarify, the 73 Pontiacs have the low compression and the hardened valves, yet don't have the smog pumps and the catalytic converters. They also appear to have a true dual exhaust, so that will make them decent performers right there. It occurs to me that our 250 hp engines would have been 300 hp engines a couple of years before when they measured gross. John has made it clear to me that this car doesn't have any problems getting there.

Thanks for the heads up on the fuel lines, Tennesseestorm. I will look them over carefully. I probably won't be able to replace them before starting the trip unless they're clearly nasty, but it's nice to be aware of the issue. This car has sat, but apparently been driven at least monthly. From what John has told me, the car drives quite nicely right now. I'll be looking over the radiator very carefully, and may take it out and have it flushed before starting the trip.

I'm glad that these engines are readily accessible and sensibly put together. There are some unforgivably idiotic engine layouts, even in 60s and 70s cars. Glad this one aint one of them.
Mike

that was a steal, a running 455 around chicagoland is worth double that complete. sounds like a cool car.

If it's like the '71 Catalina I used to have, you'll be able to use the trunk for overnight sleepovers....:) It's big.

Yeah, those photos will be very nice to see. $450 is an absolute steal for this car. I know you will love it.

Options.... well, thats where the 70s ( and 60s ) cars get very interesting- which is one reason I like them... they are all so oddly and differently equipped.

As far as options go, the list is very long, even on the Grand Ville. I have seen "loaded" Catalina's and "plain-jane" Grand Villes. Back then (as you may already know) options were individually ordered.
There is a rather long thread here somewhere on everyones car and its options. As far as the 71-76 Pontiacs go, this is just a sample of options that were optional on most all models (but I am mainly referring to the 73' models now):
Power windows, power locks, power seat, tilt wheel, cruise control, 4-season A/C, automatic climate control A/C, AM radio, AM-FM radio, tape player, power trunk release, deluxe wheel covers, rear window defog, rear window defrost, air suspension, cornering lights, 60/40 seat, bumper strips, bumper gaurds, side molding trim, vinyl top covering, "Custom" interior option (which I think included cut-pile carpeting, front seat back handle, power outlets, color-keyed seat belts), lower door courtesy lights, tinted glass, gauge package. I do not have my sales brochure here with me, so I am probably leaving some out.

The difference between models were mostly cosmetic/trim. As mentioned, I have seen loaded Catalinas and plain Grand Villes. I saw a 73' Catalina 2dr, with all interior options, as well as cornering lights, deluxe wheel covers, vinyl top, side moldings, bumper gaurds, bumper strips, whereas I have seen some Grand Ville's without any of these- I have even seen some Grand Villes without A/C, power windows, vinyl top, etc.

Thumbs up on the fuel lines. You may want to carry a fire extinguisher just for safety reasons- just in case one leaks.

"Do you smell something burning or is it just me?"

I may have been a little too hasty describing a quick timeline for this car (folks in my family call this phenomenon "talking smack").

John bought a brand new Toyota Prius the other day, and paid out enough that he doesn't know if he's too excited about buying that 24 Dodge. That may mean he won't be driving back anytime soon. And when they DO leave, they won't be going home, but to the midwest to visit family. The car is certainly going to be mine, but I may have to go through a version of "farmer and the lamb, the wolf, and the cabbage" in order to have John, the car, and myself all in Washington at the same time.

We MAY yet go back fairly soon, but then again it may take quite awhile.

As to options...

I'll be able to find out more about what the car has fairly soon. In a way, for my driving, I hope it doesn't have TOO many. I look at a lot of options as plain annoying. Take power door locks; you've got these things that aint that great to begin with (IMHO), and then they fail and cause real headaches. Believe it or not, I'm the same way about power windows, albeit to a lesser extent of annoyance. They just don't tend to last as long as the manual kind, and they don't (again, IMHO) make my life much more wonderful.

There ARE some options - such as power radio antenas - that WOULD be absolutely useless if it weren't for the fact that there are even more absolutely useless people out there who vandalize other peoples' property for no reason. Power antenas aren't for making the car look better, they are about hiding a vulnerable part from boneheaded jerks.

Glad to hear about the sensibly-enormous trunk layout. I use my trunk a lot - albeit not for bodies - so it's nice to have a large-looking trunk that's really a LARGE trunk.

Like I said, I may have to go to a little more effort to get this car than I initially believed. It's possible that I may even have to fly to Washington to get it. The car will be cheap enough that it will STILL be a good plan (particularly if I can pick up one of those $97 tickets that still occasionally become available). If I didn't believe that the car was CHERRY, I would probably move on to something else. That, and the fact that reading through a lot of posts on this forum has triggered my "Big Pontiac maternal instincts."

Mike

Well, I have some good news for you. For one, on these cars, the higher optioned, the better (especially if you resell). Typically, higher optioned models are more desirable (or very low optioned cars, for their rarity).

The other good news is that if this car has power windows and/or locks, I would about bet they are fine- but hopefully yours will not be the exception. My 73' Grand Ville has power windows and power door locks, all still in perfect working order. I have had several early 70s GM cars with power windows/seats/locks, etc and never had an issue. The power windows and locks on these older cars (well, GM cars) are fairly reliable- unlike the PW and PDL of the 90s and early 2000s car. I say GM, because we have had some 60s/70s Lincolns with power window woes, but I never had an issue with my power windows/locks on my old 72' Cadillac, 72' Buick, 71' Oldsmobile, etc. GM seemed to have set the benchmark here. I even have no problems with the power windows or power locks on my 69' Chevrolet Caprice. The windows work very smoothly and quickly. Also, on these cars, if the power locks fail, they can still be operated manually as if they were not even power.

The only issue I have with my Grand Ville, is where the weather stripping on my rear door windows are in poor conditions, that they will sometimes "catch" when going down, which is not a good thing.

Antenna.... I do not think that the 73' Grand Ville's had power antennas. I think they were all incorporated into the front windshield. Thats the little lines you see in the center of the windshield.

Good luck!

Tennesseestorm,

Actually, I liked those built-in antennas; you trade a little reception for a lot of hassles. And given the fact that everyone is going to iPods and satellite radios anyways, it's just as well to have the antenna out of the way.

I personally am not TOO concerned over "increased values" due to the options or lack thereof. If these cars were on everyone's "Hot List" for classic/vintage cars, I'd have a different mindset. But as it is, these Grand Villes seem to be largely ignored, and so I'd only want the options that would make my world better/easier.

I'm glad that the power door locks on these cars were so good, as I believe I recall John saying that the Grand Ville had them. My old Mercedes has power door locks that have held up pretty well, but they are vacuum operated rather than electric, and IMHO, electric would tend to be both more durable and easier to repair (no vacuum lines, diaphragms, actuators, or that sort of thing). I particularly like your description of "if the power locks fail, they can still operate manually." That is simply an example of good quality redundant engineering.

I'm pretty sure that John said that the car has power windows as well, and he told me that everything worked A-okay. I guess that's a testament to how they built these cars, isn't it?

Question: has anyone installed fuel injection on one of these 455s? How did it go? How much did it improve mileage? What unit did you use? I don't know anything about such a carberator->f.i. install, as I've never done it or even read about it. But it doesn't seem like it would entail too awful much hassle to install.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Along with everyone else, welcome to the PY forums. You are getting a great car for $450. I purchased a 74 Grand Ville 4dr hdtp from the original owner for $450 last September myself (although I had $575 in transport cost too). Like your Grand Ville, it hadn't been driven much over the last 6-7 years.
I put new tires on it, gave it a complete tune up, flushed the radiator, changed all the belts, and hoses (I also had to replace the water pump, it was leaking from the weep hole), BUT it's biggest problem was the rubber lines from the fuel tank to the frame- mounted lines were dry-rotted and cracked, allowing air to be sucked in with the fuel, causing it to run rough and stall out. Since Sept., I have put on over 2500 miles, I've used up a lot of gas, but have not had any trouble with it, and it has started everyday in the 15 to -5 degree temps we've been having. All it needs to be really nice is a repaint of it's original paint. It drives, and rides as nice as any car I own, so much so that we are considering driving it to NY to visit my wife's family in April (about 750mi each way).
If I'm not crazy enough, I am picking a one-owner 76 Bonneville 4dr hdtp this weekend in Ohio. It is in nice original condition, is cheap, and no matter what, I'm not letting somebody buy it to demo-derby.
As for parts, I work for an automotive parts wholesale shipper, and haven't had any problems getting parts for it. Good luck, and enjoy, Daver

One last thing, when you get the GV, go to this site, and register it: http://www.collectorpro.com/grandvil...y/registry.htm.

BTW Eric, that Black 73 you listed for someone else sure looks like a nice car, wish I could afford that one too.

Excellent to hear you are saving from the doom of a derby!

Me too. My Grand Ville has only AM radio, but the stations tune in fine. I normally carry an FM radio with me when I drive the car. Yeah, the PDLs and PWs should be fine. They are electric on the Grand Ville as you mentioned. My 69' Caprice has vacuum powered locks, but amazingly they still work fine as well. I also have a 85' Mercedes S-Class, again, with vacuum powered locks, but they still work fine too, as does my windows. Lucky I suppose.

One thing I did to keep the power windows working well, remove the interior door panels, clean the tracks and oil them. Made a huge difference. If you have to replace the clear plastic in the doors you can get that at a landscaping shop.
Next time anyone here is at Wally World (Wal Mart) The 7ups is in the 5.50 DVD bin.

That isn't a bad movie, except for them using the engine soundtrack from the Bullitt chase scene for the Ventura. Does everyone know that they used a Ford GT-40 racecar for the Mustang's engine sounds in Bullitt?

Daver

Thanks Tony. It really isn't in bad shape, it's just the price would have attracted the derby crowd. I'll post some pics once I get it home. Daver

P.S. I don't have anything against derbys.....as long as they don't destroy Pontiacs!

I just happened to see the movie on TV this last weekend and noticed the sound track as well. The bad guy in the Grand Ville was the same person who drove the Charger in Bullitt. They did edit the sound so there wasn't any of the GT-40 gear changes (when I first saw Bullitt, I was wondering why McQueen was double clutching that Mustang. :) )

Yeah, I noticed it was the same guy too, just a few years older, longer hair and those 70s sideburns....lol.
I saw another movie from the same era, they used the Bullitt soundtrack for it too, just can't remember what it was.

I think the same guy drove both the Charger & Grandville. Ive also noticed similarites between the 7ups & French connection -

Pontiacdaver,

Sounds to me like you've saved both that Grand Ville and this Bonneville from certain death. I hope they both run well for you to show their appreciation. I'm glad to hear that you've got the Grand Ville to the point of trusting it.
I think I already came across that registration link, and planned to use it. I'll click on it and see if I can ID your car.

I genuinely believe that "my" Pontiac is in outstanding condition, save for possible hidden issues such as a partially blocked radiator or fuel lines. I believe the car is in excellent condition because John believes it; and he is both absolutely trustworthy and mechanically astute. Frankly, if I didn't think the car was in extremely good shape, I wouldn't be interested in it. I admire people who love to fully restore old cars, but that's not my ballgame. I just want to buy something that runs great and keep it running great. Now all I need to do is get my hands on it!

Tennesseestorm,
Good to hear I'm not the only Mercedes guy who also appreciates American cars; most folk tend to like one or the other. I think it will be interesting to compare the Pontiac to my Mercedes 450SEL 6.9. Like I said, they have similar performance specs.

On the topic of vacuum vs. electric, I choose electric. It is an interesting discussion whether one is better than the other, but I simply find it easier to locate voltage drops than vacuum leaks. Or, to put it another way, I would rather tingle than suck.

I'm pretty sure that John mentioned that the Grand Ville has AM/FM. I don't remember whether it had 8-track or cassette or anything. I believe it is has the OEM unit, but I could be wrong there.

Don't know anything about 7ups. I take it has a Grand Ville in it? I'll have to watch it.

Yeah, I actually have old American cars, the German car (Mercedes) and a Japanese truck (Toyota). :D I like some out of all of makes. My MB is old and getting worn out though. It has 270K and in need of a complete tune-up.

If your car has power windows, power locks and FM radio options, it is likely a higher optioned car. Not too many had FM radios and I have noticed a trend that the FM models seem to be higher optioned. My car has power windows, power locks, AM radio, tilt wheel, A/C, "custom" interior option (which I think added cut-pile carpeting, front seatback handle, etc), lower door courtesy lights, map lights, vinyl top, bumper gaurds, bumper strips, side protective moldings and I have added the "deluxe" finned wheelcovers, but I think I am going to switch them back.

The 7-Ups movie... yeah, there is a big "chase" scene in it, where a "then" brand new 73' Grand Ville gets beaten to bits during the chase. I have this movie. As 455Grandville mentioned, its at Wal-Mart. I think mine was something like $4.95 though.? Anyway, I took some photos of this chase during the movie and posted them here on the "Pontiacs in movies" thread in the lobby. Here is the exact post I posted there, so here is a "sneak peek" of the chase. You really need to get the movie. If you like the Grand Villes, this scene will make you cringe. This was a brand new, highly optioned Grand Ville. Note it has the fairly rare cornering lights as well:

"Well, this is the movie "Seven-Ups" I was talking about before... I am sure many here are aware of the movie. Here are the scenes as they unfold.... destroying a then "BRAND NEW" 1973 Grand Ville. Notice it has the rare cornering lights option, as well as that very nice dark (and rare) blue color. I cringe when I watch this scene, as I own a 73' Grand Ville as well, but its the "classic 70s" brown.

Please be patient... alot of photos on this post..... Sorry of the low quality... I had to take them of my TV screen. :p (These photos do not overload the site do they? If so, I can just change them to links.... :confused:

(I am not even sure, it is even legal to post photos of scenes of movies on the internet? Should be, I bought the movie... lol). Some of you may know this movie well... If so... sorry for all of the photos... to those of you that have not- go to Wal-mart and purchase it for only $4.95. :D

I love it, because it has alot of old cars in it. Its obvious that Pontiac supplied the new cars in this 1973 film.

Anyway, here is that 73' Catalina 4dr hdtp I was talking about. It has the "upgraded" interior, as well as auto-climate control A/C. Unusual for the Catalina..... Also, notice that the Catalina has wider whitewalls on the tires, than the Grand Ville does.... also the Grand Ville has 4-season A/C, as opposed to the auto-climate control.
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4105.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4109.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4114.jpg
(this was when the car was going through the automatic carwash)
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4127.jpg

This interior looks very much like the base Bonneville interior. For all I know, they may have used a Bonneville for the interior shots, but I doubt it.

Now, here is the following scene that hurts me.... they demolish a then "BRAND NEW" 73' Grand Ville.... in my most favorite color on these cars. I will post in order that the car sees its fate.... note it is highly optioned and also has the cornering lights:
Here it is coming out of the garage at a high rate of speed.... OUCH!
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4134.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4135.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4142.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4145.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4148.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4146.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4150.jpg
Its already lost one fenderskirt..... :(
Also, notice it has the rear swaybar.... obviously has the "handling" option as well, but still looks like its leaning quite a bit.
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4151.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4156.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4157.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4159.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4160.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4161.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4162.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4164.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4166.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4170.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4171.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4173.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4177.jpg
This is the last frame that the Grand Ville is seen:
As you can see, she took a beating.... I cringe everytime I watch this scene. :crazy:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4178.jpg
And the fate of the "new" Ventura:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...m/100_4179.jpg

I think they had a 6.9 Mercedes in Ronin , chasing some Peugeots & Citroen.
That movie had one of the best car chases ever.

455Grandville,
Yeah, I was scrolling down, looking at Tennesse's pics, and just about to write, "Yeah, there's a movie with a brown 6.9 in it called "Ronin" that has a pretty good chase scene in it. But then you had to go and steal all my thunder. At least they didn't destroy the 6.9 in that movie. It was really kind of a dumb movie; good car chase, though.

Mine is a '77 US market car. It's rated at 250 hp and 360 ft/lbs. Do those specs sound familiar to anyone? I'm really looking forward to driving the Grand Ville and seeing how the two cars compare to each other.

Thanks for posting the pics, Tennessee, just because they give me another look - or two - at the Grand Ville. It's quite a pretty car. I really like its lines.

I remember doing an experiment some time ago. I was over at my brother's house, and my sister in law asked me to help her take their 64 T-bird in for service. I followed her in their brand-spanking-new top-of-the-line Infinity. I did an experiment: I paid close attention to how many people "noticed" me or the car. We drove a good 10 miles on city streets, so plenty of opportunities to be noticed. Guess what? Nobody noticed. A brand new, $50,000 plus car, and nobody cared.

Well, the next time I was over, I got a chance to drive the T-bird. Did the same experiment. EVERYONE checked out that car. It's a REAL pretty car; it's placed well in a few car shows (even though it's a daily driver, and not one that gets towed from show to show). I think a LOT of people buy new cars thinking they will get noticed, and nobody gives a flat-damn about them or their dime-a-dozen cars (even expensive sporty and luxury models seem to be a dime a dozen).

Old cars have character, personality, and class that new cars simply don't match. They also offer durability: does anybody seriously think any of today's new cars will still be on the road 30-40 years from now?

In any event, I'm looking forward to comparing German and American engineering. The Germans certainly had an advantage: a new 450SEL 6.9 sold for the equivalent of about five fully equipped Cadillacs. It's actually the most comfortable car I've ever driven - old OR new. I'll be surprised if the Grand Ville matches the comfort (the relationship between the seat and the wheel, the glide of the suspension, etc.). But I'll be disappointed if the Pontiac powertrain doesn't compare favorably.

I'm guessing the Pontiac was geared more toward lower end performance, while the Mercedes was geared toward higher (it advertises a top speed of near 150 mph, though I've never even TRIED to come close to that). While I don't expect the Grand Ville to go quite that fast, I DO expect it to have a pretty darned fair lower end.

I wasn't all that interested in the option package until Tennesseestorm brought it up. Now I'd like to know. I'll quiz John the next time I talk to him.
Mike

Supposedly the earlier 6.3s would make it to 135 - 140 mph range. The 6.9 is a bored out 6.3 (liners, really) I think it was about 250 hp, which wasnt bad for the 70s. You might want to subscribe to Hemmings Sports & Exotic Car magazine.

455Grandville,

The 6.3s are magnificent - and have one of the most visually beautiful engines I've ever seen (though I admit I haven't seen a great many engines).

Here's a link and a brief quote from that link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_450SEL_6.9

Autobahn cruiser versus race track

Top speed was factory-rated at 140 mph (225 km/h), but some journalists testing the car saw speeds approaching 150 mph (241 km/h). Among those journalists was Brock Yates. Yates was approached by the factory to write promotional literature about the 6.9. He agreed, but under the condition that he could list the car's faults as well as its positives. Daimler-Benz agreed in turn, and Yates was given a US-spec 6.9 to drive from Manhattan to the Road Atlanta grand prix race track in Georgia.

I've actually got some of the lit advertising 150mph, but didn't want to go to the trouble of scanning it and posting it.

In any event, the 6.9s were very fast cars considering that most cars had gotten REAL slow by then, and featured a high top speed. As for how fast mine is, I'll never know; I strive to drive the speed limit. My real measure of performance is getting past other cars in traffic to get into the right or left lane when I need to. The other is going up hills and being able to "kick it."

I got my Mercedes in an incredibly lucky stroke. It did not have the 6.9 trunk badge (which was an option for the 6.9, though it could also have fallen off or something), and the seller didn't do his homework. I initially thought it was a 4.5L version, but as I tried to buy parts, several didn't match up. I looked up the VIN, and whadya know? To be honest with you, it was a pretty darn good deal even for a 4.5L model.

The car turned out to be a one-owner medical doctor's car, save for the (most likely a broker) who bought and sold it in a quick turnover. All the service records were in the trunk.

One of the reasons I wanted to get my hands on the Pontiac is so I wouldn't put too many miles on the 6.9. Another issue is the fact that, while the 6.9 has hydropneumatic suspension, it is rather costly to maintain.

Oh, wait a minute. This is a PONTIAC forum, isn't it?

The 455 engine sounds like it would be ridiculously easy to build up compared to the 6.9. It would be VERY expensive to do much upgrading on the 6.9. The other thing about the 455 in the Grand Ville is the fact that you'all tell me it has a roomy compartment; the 6.9L in the 450SEL engine compartment is very tight, with even routine maintenance becoming an adventure.

6.3's biggest fault is if the air suspension needs work - dumptruck full of $ to fix. Ive ridden in a 300SD, similar body to the 6.9, but with a 5 cylinder turbodiesel. Ive always wanted to get a old Mercedes Unimog to go out in the deep woods to haul firewood back to my house, but they aint' cheap.
You'll find a 455 is a simple, durable engine that will withstand alot more abuse then any new car. With simple mods you can get alot more power out of it easily.

I agree, you can't beat German engineering, but I think you'll find the Pontiac to be a fairly well engineered car. I think it may be quicker than the Mercedes at the lower end (I know my GV is surprisingly quick from 10-70mph). I doubt it has as much top end, but it will probably have more than you'll use.....I'd guess it could get up to 120+, I've never tried in mine. Either way, you are getting a great car, at a steal of a price. Welcome to the Darksiders.
Can't wait to see pictures. Daver

Pontiacdaver,
I just quoted myself to state that what you think is what I'm hoping. You've got such similar specs, and the 6.9 is obviously geared to be a top-end beast. Me, I've always loved low-end power. I don't USE high-end stuff; my tach never GETS to 4,000 rpm. Let me have the power where I'll actually use it, thank you very much.

455Grandville,
Yeah, those 6.3s are magnificent, but I've read they can be touchy. You DON'T want one unless you can afford to keep it happy (rather like a beautiful, fashion-oriented woman). The diesel w116s were actually often selling for MORE than the 6.9s, though the better gas prices has changed that a bit. Bio-diesel potential.

I've never put the 6.9 badge on the trunk for the same reason I would probably not put a "455" badge on the Grand Ville: I wouldn't want someone to target my car for theft just for the engine (I've had 2 cars stolen, and rather hate it when that happens). The 5 cylinder Mercedes diesels are durable - and even strong after about 40 mph - but they are dogs getting up to speed. Some of the earlier diesels are downright dangerous to drive in traffic.

BTW, some VERY good news for mikey. I had a call on my machine from John. When I called him back, he told me that he was going to Walla Walla next Thursday. We will be towing a 1925 Dodge back that he DID buy after all, and then towing my new Grand Ville back.

It works out beautifully. A woman who works in John's wife's doctor's office got the idea that she might ask John to bring a truck back to the desert that is currently in Walla Walla. Their son was driving it when the transmission blew, and he left the truck in Walla Walla. The folks had the tranny rebuilt. John initially intended to tow the truck back (and I'd follow in the Pontiac), but it turns out (such a shame!) that the truck is too big to fit on any standard trailer available from U Haul. So I will drive the truck back, and John will tow the Grand Ville.

John was in a bit of a hurry, so I didn't pester him with any car questions (plenty of time to do that during the drive, I figure). He told me two items: 1) that when he bought the car, he noticed what appeared to be a little mold on the WHITE vinyl top, that completely came out when he dealt with it. The top has looked nice since; 2) that the air duct (that thingy that's made out of slinky metal and cloth that brings outside air to the engine) has worn out. Otherwise, he says, the car looks nice and drives beautifully.

I of course said the deal was off, and I didn't want the car - well, NOT!

Since the woman will be paying for the fuel, my part is only to be a driver. So yeah, that $450 figure will be about it (plus a few meals, but a guy's gotta eat!). As for those immediate maintenance items - battery, tires - they are quite new, and not an issue.

So you can picture me walking around looking like that cat with a bunch of canary feathers sticking out of its mouth.

Don't worry, fellow travelers; once I get this car back and detailed a little bit, I will be posting pics of the interior, exterior, and engine (and more if I feel like crawling around).

The funny thing about buying this Grand Ville is that my 6.9 will suddenly become my compact, economy car (it's a foot and a half shorter and gets a little over 12 mpg).

So there it is. Happy happy.
Mike

Thats one reason I like my 85' 380SE over the 86' 560SEL, is that mine has standard struts, yet the car has a soft and supple ride- actually floaty at highway speeds. Beginning in 86' Mercedes switched over to air suspension on the 560SEL's. The 420SEL's retained standard suspension in 86'.

No problem. Yeah, this kinda gives you an idea of what the car looked like when new. THIS one was a very nice looking car, especially considering it was new, too bad it did not stay that way. They trashed it- big time. Over on the lobby, I told someone that they should have crashed a plain-jane Catalina, rather than a nicely optioned Grand Ville. It would have made more sense "budget wise", being a cheaper car. Someone said that afterward, that the Grand Ville was probably crushed, especially if Pontiac had donated the car for the film. :( I personally thought all that would have been repairable, but it would have been costly. New doors, front clip, and quarter panels.

Yeah, I think that the "options" on these cars (as well as most all early-mid 70s cars) is what makes then so unique. So many are so differently optioned... one may have "this and that", while another may have "that and this and maybe a that". :D

Yeah, when you get it, I would be very interested to see photos of it, to see how it is so equipped. I will tell you in advance that auto climate control A/C (not standard A/C), power seat, rear window defrost, tape player, power trunk release, handling package, air level suspension and cornering lights seem to be the "rarest" options on these cars.

The most common options seems to be power windows, vinyl top, AM radio, standard A/C.

Keep us posted.

michaeld, I wouldnt want a 6.3, gas prices these days makes me think twice. I can tell you that your car should be pretty reliable after you check it over. I drove a '76 Bonneville for years, including commuting to work for years, and cross country trips. Car never left me on the side of the road.

Yeah, I'll be sure to post with pics after I've got her home and cleaned up (after all, if I don't want you to take my picture until I've combed my hair, the least I can do is wash my car before taking its picture).

I'll try to list the options as soon as I'm able. I'll also take pics of the car inside and out, so you might spot some options I don't know to list.

The one option I know for sure is color. I'm personally not tooo excited about the yellow body and the white top, as my favorite car color is black, and my next favorite is the next closest color to black, and so on. You can imagine how far down my list yellow and white would be. I suppose I should complain. After all, $450 for a car is a lot of money - or at least it was back in NINETEEN-0-7. Near-beggars can't be choosers.

At the same time, the only way I would ever repaint a car is if it actually NEEDED repainting. If the factory yellow is in decent condition, factory yellow she stays.

I've gotta agree about the 6.3s. Lovely machines, but too rich for my blood to maintain. The 6.9 suspension is actually pretty reliable, but when it does need repairs, ouch. I priced compared some 455 parts to some 6.9 parts, and found the Pontiac parts were on average less than 1/5th the price with some being considerably less than that. That'll be nice.

My number one "list-topper" trait for my cars is DURABILITY/RELIABILITY. If this Grand Ville gives me that, I will keep it for years, yellow or not.

I read that the Grand Villes got 11 mpg according to the EPA. Not much different from a full-size SUV. When I gas the Grand Ville up, I'll remember what I paid for it.

You could probably pull 13 - 16 mpg on the highway if the car is geared tall and you're on reasonably flat ground.

PontiacDave - From the pics of your Grandville, you could probably buff that paint out. Buddy of mine used to detail cars, he would use some special waxes dealerships use (3M was one of them) with a high speed buffer (not those $20 Wally World ones) You have to be careful with the high speed ones not to burn the paint, but the difference is night & day.

One good thing is that it is a rare color on these cars and that should make it a bit more special.

I am not wild about the color on mine either. Its "burnished brown" ( I think ), with a black top. I personally like the dark blue, with light blue vinyl top.

I would also like the white exterior, with dark blue interior/top, but I do not recall seeing any 73' Grand Ville 4dr that was white/blue.

455Grandville raises an interesting question in my mind: what IS the differential ratio on the Grand Villes? Were different rear ends listed as options? Were different trannies listed as options? For that matter, was any engine other than the 455 an option for the Grand Villes (I happen to know that mine will be a 455, but could it have been otherwise from the factory?)?

Teneesseestorm,
Well, yellow COULD have been rare because no one wanted it even back then, and why should people have changed their minds since? Still, at LEAST it's a primary color, and not some off the wall shade. The car will start looking prettier and prettier to me if the engine purrs like a kitten and pulls like a bull.

Tweetie-bird yellow or cow-pie-brown? Gotta wonder what some people were thinking when they chose the colors of their new cars. I mean, didn't they contemplate posterity, and what future generations would think?

455/Thm 400 was the only engine/tranny; I think dual exhaust was optional.
As far as compression it's listed around 8.2 :1 however, I have found factory ratings to be off quite a bit at times, mine is what I call "Farm tractor" compression 7.6 :1. My new 455 is right at 9.4 :1 so it should be more powerful.
As far as rear end goes - most luxurycars were tall geared Id guess between 3.23 to 2.56. After the '73 Fuel crisis cars were really geared tall for fuel economy.

It was the seventies man.

soon2b2ltmp,
Does that mean we should lump people's choice in auto paint colors with Jimmy Carter and disco? Oh, well. People did SOME things right in the 70s; you can't expect them to bat .1000.

455Grandville,
Did you recently measure your engine at 7.6:1, or have you found literature that cites that degree of compression variance? I've always thought that most engines simply lost compression over time as the piston rings began to wear (among other wear factors, such as cam wear). Thus your compression may have originally been quite close to spec, and then gone down as the engine aged. I've never heard of OEM "new car" compression varying that widely, but then again there's a LOT of things I haven't heard!

You know how some new cars just seem to be lemons from day one? If what you are saying about compression varying that much is the case on new cars today, I wonder if compression testing would be a good "lemon spotter" test? A compression test is, after all, one of the great barometers of the health of an engine. Buy a new car, find low compression, take that sucker back before it peters out on you.

I also didn't realize that the 73 455 spec was 8.2:1; I'd read that it was 8.0:1. A LITTLE higher is better, so that's good.

Now, you're saying that dual exhaust was optional? Why on earth would anybody want a restricted exhaust system when they could have dual? Oh, shoot, probably the same kind of guy who'd want a "Tweety-bird yellow" car, vote for Jimmy Carter, and dance the night away!

So now you KNOW the first thing I'll be checking is for dual exhaust. That's become my number one favorite Grand Ville option.

Brad, unfortunately the paint is weather-checked, so an easy sand and repaint will probably have to be removed all the way down to bare metal to make sure it doesn't crack the new paint. I'm not complaining, the car was still a great deal. Dave