400 cam choices-need input
 

Hi guys,
It's getting to the point where I have to decide on a cam.Here's my set up
71' 400,going in a GTO
Quadrajet on a stock intake
71' 96 heads will be gasket matched with basic port/chamber work
block standard bore,zero decked,stock pistons (4 valve relief with the dimple in the middle)
stock exhaust logs with full 2 1/2" duals
Wide ratio Muncie 4-speed and 3.23 posi
After head milling CR will be around 9.0-9.2
I am looking more for a high torque cam as opossed to a high peak HP cam.Idle is not really a concern as I have the 4-speed and no power brakes,but I do have A/C.The car is driven on the street but I do take it to the track a few times a year for fun.I also don't want to spin the engine above 5000-5200 RPM range.
So here is what cams I think would work good.
Crower 60241 276/281 215/221 .457/.464 lift 112LSA
Summit 2801 272/282 214/224 .442/.465 lift 112LSA
Comp XE262 262/270 218/224 .462/.470 110LSA
The Crower is my top pick,Comp last.I have read a few complaints about about the XE262 not living up to peoples expectations,and power dropping off at 4500 or so,but I've read a few good things also.I've yet to hear any complaints of the Crower or Summit.
Any of you cam guru's care to comment on my picks?I would also like to here from anyone who is running,or has run one of these 3 cams in a SIMILAR SET UP to mine,and what they thought of the cams.
Also,am I being too conservative(I tend to be)? I was thinking for awhile about running the Crower 60916 after milling more off the heads to get the CR up to 9.5 (heads are being rebuilt and milled anyway).I did a search on this cam on a few Pontiac sites and it seems to be a highly recommened cam,but I just think it might want to make power well past my 5200 RPM cut off,and sacrifice too much of my bottom end. I think running it with my stock exhaust manifolds (which are staying for now) might not make it the best pick for me?:confused:
Thanks for any input,Drake

Crower 60916
 

With your combo I would think that the 60916 would work well. This cam in my 9.5 455 4 speed 3.31 65 GTO was a super mild cam and would be very mild in your combo. It would still give you great low and midrange in my opinion. My 60916 idled like an 068 cam. I believe Bruce Wilke on this forum runs the 60916 in his wife's 400 powered car and has stated it is a very mild cam. I just do not think it would be too much cam for your combo especially with the 4 speed. Would be worth a try in my opinion.

Go with the 60242 NOT the 60241. With a 60242 you can make anywhere between 380hp - 400 hp. The 60242 is one of our most poular cams we sell. JMHO.

Be Cool,
Ace

Thanks for the info guys.
Won't the 60916 and 60242 want to keep pulling well past 5200 though? I've read they will make power up to 6000RPM in a 400 like mine(except with RA manifolds or headers).I'm not afraid of "too much HP", just thinking I could use that power down at a lower RPM seeing as how I don't want to rev higher than 5200,or so.

My Howards Cam is about the same as the Summit you listed.
In my 400 it produces loads of low end torque. Greg Ducato at Phoenix Transmission drove my car for a couple days during the installation of a th700-R4 and he could not believe how much torque it had. Even in OD with TQ locked with a 3.08 axle turning only 1500 rpm at 60mph its still pulling 15" vacuum. IMO, the Summit is perfect for the street not racing as it runs out of breath around 5200rpm.

On my dyno the 60242 is all over by 4800-5200 rpm depending on heads.

Be Cool,
Ace

I'm rebuilding a 73 455 with 71 #96 heads. which cam should I use. car is to be street driven. Summit 2801 or the 068 cam?

I'm no expert but ... if no power brakes, why not run something with a tighter lobe sep - vacuum/idle quality less important, right?

Your car is a 4 speed also - don't need all the bottom end grunt and 2 - "peakier" torque curve matters less with the extra gear.

You are right.And that's why I posted this question.:D I tend to be very conservative.
After talking to "Ace" today on the phone I am leaning towards the 60242.Before posting this question I was thinking that my RPM range would be too high with the 60242 or 60916 grinds.I also talked to someone else who is running the 60916 in a 400 similar to mine and he said the power is done in the low 5000's.So I'm glad I posted this question.I was kind of on the fence on this one.
Thanks all who replied so far.
Drake

Give Ken a call and he'll take care of you.Click on the link in his signature for his #.His shop is closed till Jan 7th though.

Just figured I'd update my old thread in case it helps anyone doing a search in the future.
I just ordered the 60242 that Ken "Ace" Brewer suggested above. Since posting this thread I've decided to update the stock bottom end,so I can safely spin the engine higher than with my original cam choices. I had a hard time choosing between the 60916 or the 60242 since they are so similar. I chose the 242 because it should work a little better with the 9.1-9.2 CR that I will be running. Seems like the minimum for the 916 is around 9.5.
I'll update again when I get the engine on the dyno or to the track.
Drake

Just had some feedback today from a local guy who used one of my .467"/.467" - 220°/226° @ .050" - 111.5° LSA hydraulic flat tappets (0° overalp @ .050") in a similarly equipped 406. Hasn't been dyno'd yet, but he reports it is still pulling at 5700 when he shifts.

That should give you an idea of what to expect...Robert

It is impossible to "gauge" the rpm range of a camshaft in any engine combination from "seat of the pants" testing. Camshafts simply don't cause a situation where an engine hits a given rpm and the power falls off to nothing.

We often see dyno charts where a particular camshaft made peak power at 5200 or 5300rpm's, but is still making PLENTY of power at 5800 or 6000rpm's. One simply can't "feel" a loss of a couple of HP in a narrow rpm range up near the shift point, at least accurately enough to say a cam has the engine "pulling" hard to at least X rpm's, etc.

My own 455 will rip your head slam off to at least 5800rpm's, with no noticable lag or significant power losses anyplace. Even so, on the dyno it made peak hp at 5400rpm's. We shift at 5000rpm's at the track, and only see a few hundreths improvement shifting any higher in the rpm range.

We've installed and tested the Crower 60916 cam, and the 60243 grind. In 400's at 10 to 1 or slightly higher static compression, manual trans (auto with 3000rpm stall), at least 3.73 gears, the 228/234/112 cam is a very, very good choice. Expect to make peak hp around 5500-5600rpm's, and up near 425 hp with unported large valve heads......Cliff

cliff,

how do you think that 60916 will perform with a lower compression ratio ? like 9.0:1 or even 8.0:1 ???

i am dropping the 60916 in an otherwise stock 400 (small intake valve, large exhaust), with a 4 speed and 3.90 rear.

it is only a temporary combo (not concerned about max performance)...just dont want it to be a complete dog...maybe i need to bump the CR on the cheap somehow ???

Steve, at a solid 10 to 1 static cr, we only see apprx 12" vacuum at idle speed, with a very slight lope. The "real" power curve starts at apprx 2800rpm's. With a lower compression engine I'd think seriously about using a set of Rhoad's lifters with that cam, especially down around 9 to 1. At 8 to 1 static I'd use the Crower 210/221/112 cam instead...FWIW....Cliff

thanks cliff ! so the vacuum is the bigger problem ? i dont use vacuum to run any accessories....or are you saying that it will have no power under 2800 rpms without more compression ?

There is power below 2800rpm's, but the cam really doesn't start coming into its power range till then. We have had a few folks try to use that cam in 400's with auto trans and stock or very mild converters, with less than desirable results. Much like trying to run the RAIV cam in a 400 engine with 2.73 gears!......Cliff

how about a 4 speed with 3.90 ?? BTW shaker455 has my 3bbl you plated for a little testing !! i am intersted to hear what he says.

What sort of "testing", dyno? I wouldn't think any tracks are open up his way this time of year.

I'm curious as to how well those huge q-jet looking secondary fuel supply nozzles work vs an annular or downleg booster?.....Cliff

he never said anything about a dyno. he said he just wanted to see how it worked. i am thinking jeff could tell me a lot just by looking at it !!!! so i guess in your opinion that 60916 is all wrong for my 400 build...thanks for the input. i'll call crower and see what they say.

Steve,

With lower SCR, you want an early closing intake event to maximize cylinder pressure. One of the nicest low SCR camshafts in a street-driven 400 is my custom .467"/.467" - 270°/276° @ .006" - 220°/226° @ .050" - 111.5° LSA.

Installed on a 104.5° intake centerline, this asymetrical profile features a very early 34.5° ABDC intake closing event and 0° of overlap @ .050" lift.

(That's even earlier than the '068's 37.0° ABDC intake closing event.)

Very nice camshaft in a 8.00:1 to 8.50:1 SCR 350 or 400...Robert

is that lift too much for press in studs....

Steve,

I haven't used the press-in studs on a Pontiac yet, but we routinely used .465" lift with SBC press-in studs and 275 lbs open pressure on street engines with no problems. However, It would be very easy to convert your heads to screw-in studs and I think it would be a wise investment.

I have used the stock Pontiac dual springs with .465" lift and experienced good results. B-Man has used stock Pontiac dual springs to around .450" lift in one of his engines.

I buy them new from www.sivalves.com for about three bucks a piece. They average 85-90 lbs. on the seat @ 1.590" and 230-235 lbs. open pressure. They work well up to about .475" lift and they coil bind at about .990" overall. They are fine for 5000 rpm and less.

Perhaps B-Man will chime in with more details...Robert

I had this cam in a low compression 400 and hated it. It was like a two stroke; zero power down low and then took off like a freight train (seat of the pants) at 2,800 rpms. I couldn't get the tires to break loose with radial T/A's without power braking. My cranking compression was a lowly 135 PSI. I would do as Cliff suggests on compression if you use this cam!

but no one has said if 3.90 rear and 4 speed will help ???

I tried to crutch it with 3.70's and 2,400 stall which did help a little. But, the bottom line is the fact that the cam needs more compression to be optimized. I am sure 3.90's and a 4 speed would help a lot. But, why not run the optimal compression ratio and have it run better?

you guys are right....

i am having a little trouble on advice with this build. its hard to convince folks that i am not a little nuts on this.

bone stock 71 400
7J2 heads w/ small intake and press-in studs
i only replaced:
timing gear
cam bearings
cam
oil pump

i only removed 1 main cap to inspect wear
and left the rotating assembly alone.

i dont want to spend a nickle i dont have to because
it is intended only to keep my bird rolling for a summer or two
until i can get my 421 build done SOLID ROLLER with all
the goodies.

that is where i want to put the cash.


i dont want it to be a piece of crap though. i just might roll over
and have the parts machined if i have to.......


sorry to hijack the thread :o

What is the difference between the Crower 60916 and the 60242. The duration (@ .050), lift, and LSA numbers look indentical??

as you would expect the guy at crower said i would have NO problem with that cam @ 8:1 !

I've actually posted this same question,as a few others have also.
The specs are very similar as you said,but the 242 takes a stiffer spring. I guess the 242 has a SLIGHTLY faster ramp than the 916,and according to Ken "Ace" Brewer at Pacific Performance 242 can run with a slightly lower CR than the 916.Thats is the whole reason I decided on it. I also wanted to run the 60916,but milling my "96" heads to the small chamber size needed for 9.5+ CR didn't fly with my engine guy.

Technically, they are right. The motor will run....however, you won't be happy.

Steve,

The Isky 256/262 with .425"/.435" lift would be a perfect 'bolt in' camshaft for your lower compression application. It will work with press-fit studs and stock springs.

I have several people using it and they are thrilled with its performance...Robert

thanks robert ! who wants to trade a crower 60916 and lifters for one ? ;)

DD2000 also loves that cam Robert.

It's a good bolt-in street cam for low SCR engines...Robert

I am very interested in this topic as I am going to call Ace later today (it's only 6 AM out in CA right now) to order a set of his 5140 Tomahawk rods. I also need a cam for my RA III rebuild. The engine is 400 +.030, zero-decked, and am going to have the machinist put a 10 cc dish in the piston to drop the compression. I want it to run on pump fuel.

I am running #12 heads, an M-20, and a 3.55 rear. I was going to go with the 60916 cam, but now it looks like I might be better off with the 242 cam b/c I am running the lower CR. Does that make sense? I have no power brakes in the car, so vacuum for that purpose is not important.

What is your CR going to be?
I don't know what your heads CC at,but I would guess around 75 cc's.
400,.030" over,10 cc piston relief,.040" gasket,block zero decked,I'm showing around 9.8:1,that would be good for the 60916,might be getting close to detonation with the 60242,but Ken would know more about this than me. I would rather run the 60916 myself.

Figured I'd update my old thread. I just got my engine in and the car on the road.
I went a little different route since I first posted this question,so here is what I ended up running.
71' 400 block zero decked,balanced rotating. CR 9.57:1
96 heads,gasket mached, minor clean up and opening up of bowl area. Milled .060" and running .027" cometic head gaskets
SRS pistons .030" over
4340 I-beam rods
Crower 60242 cam
RobbMc 550 fuel pump
stock intake
stock exhaust logs (for now!), 2 1/2" duals
stock breaker point ignition/coil
Quadrajet,done by me,per Cliffs suggestions
Anyway,I just got back from my first test drive,and this thing rocks! :cool:
Still alot more there I'm sure,I spent maybe 30 minutes going over some tweaks on the ignition,carb,timimg,in the driveway,then took it out.
My dyno session was a useless waste of time and $$$,so I never got any WOT pulls on it. So no HP/Torque #'s. I'll be going to the local track as soon as I can,so I guess an ET will have to do! I'll post times when I get there.
Thanks alot for all the help you guys! Cliff,Screaming Chief, Ken "Ace" Brewer,and all the other guys I bugged for info these past few months! ;)
Drake

Awesome Drake!!.. Bring it to the rock!!!

Great news Drake. Did you use stock pushrods with the heads being milled .060? Did you mill the intake side .060?
Post the track times when you get them.

Stock pushrods and rocker arms were used after valvetrain geometery was checked, and verified they would work. The engine builder also milled the intake side.
I plan on going to the local track next Wed.,so I'll post some times here when I get back. I just have to figure out how to get a good launch with this 4-speed,and not grenade this stock original rear end! :D

Took my 71' GTO to the track tonight.First time out since the engine rebuild. Went OK,I guess. I was predicting 14.0 @ 98. My best was a 14.66 @ 97. w/ a 2.35 60'. Most of my 60' were around 2.5.
I do not have a tach,so launching and shifting consistantly is tough with a 4-speed.I did buy a 5" tach over the winter,but I tried to put it in today,too big to fit on my steering column.Anybody looking for a used speedpro tach with a shiftlight? LOL
Had pointbounce at higher RPM's,so I tried to see what speed to shift at using the speedo,this helped.
I advanced initial timing from 12 degrees to 16,and this upped MPH about 2,and knocked about .3 off ET. I would have advanced more,but I'm afraid of detonation.
Tried to back off airflap adjustment on my Quadrajet secondaries 1/4 turn,but that created a slight bog off the line,so I put it back to original setting before the next run.
These Sears "weatherhandler" white walls (no,I'm not kidding) have got to go! I'll get some new meats when I burn these ones off.Also,I left the stock breakerpoint ignition/coil in there to see how it would do,and because I blew my budget,for now,on the engine rebuild. But I will try at least a Pertronix when I have the $$.
I'll have to play around with it a little I guess. I figure the times were not TOO bad,but I thought it would be a little faster.
Drake

Nothing wrong with points,just dont use the light tension OE sets,use the 32oz. (accel) or 38oz. (mallory) high-performance point sets and they should not bounce till upwards of 6500+ RPM's.

OE points use 22oz. tension springs and will usually start to bounce around 4500 RPM.

Full race points use 48oz springs,but those will wear the rubbing block real fast in street use,and will need frequent adjustment for dwell,and obviously more frequent replacement as well.

Also avoid the UNI point sets with the integral condensor,those suck IMHO too.

Standard ignition also offers the HD point sets too,,,they're in the "blue streak" line,,,that is if you can get a part guy who knows how to look them up... :rolleyes:

Truth is most all the "jobber" (B/W,AC-Delco,etc.) ignition parts suppliers offer these high perf. point sets,but they're just not all that common anymore,and most parts guys are totally clueless these days to that fact.

A good coil does'nt hurt a points ignition either.

In about 80% of high performance "street" applications I could easily make a points car with $50.00 to $75.00 worth of stuff run just as good as the same car with a $500.00+ ignition system installed on it,it'll start just as easy,run just as hard,keep the plugs just as clean,the only caveat is the eventual need to maintain the points as they wear over time,there the electronic ignition systems will often have an edge.

:2cents:

Good idea. I just have some generic "Autozone" type points in there now. I'll see if that will help.
It was kind of frustrating,because the higher the RPM I shifted at,the better my ET,BUT, if I went a little too far,the points would bounce (maybe around 5000 RPM ?),and KILL my ET for that run. So it seems as if there may be a little more ET there if I get the bounce bug out.

Ordered the Accel #110128 32 oz. set today from NAPA,should be here Sat. I'll see how this works out for me.
Thanks Bret