Sierra Yellow Judge on Ebay
 

Interesting convertible. I remember seeing another yellow convert discussed here a couple years ago, but I think that one was a four speed, in better shape. That block stamp looks fishy.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-...3756.m14.l1308

Fishy is being kind!

SCARY MORE LIKE IT

That is one weak attempt at a block restamping.

Yeah scary!
He has a clear Indiana title, but he is in Alabama?

Did they use star rivets on the tags in 70?

yes, they used rosette rivets in '70. The rivets seem normal looking to me, but they must have let a 4 year old pick the font type and size for the stamping of the YZ. The partial VIN on the block looks more normal though? Scary deal overall...

If you look closely at a "supersize " picture it looks like the factory YZ stamp is there, but then somebody stamped over it with this incorrect and larger stamp.

The crappy photos do nothing to show this car, I wonder if that was intentional...

Remember when somebody posted something about another car being more rough than a night in jail ?

This reminds me of that, I think I'd rather spend a night in jail, and get in a fight or two with other inmates while I'm there than have to deal with this thing here.

So is the price already

15k are you kidding?

The tags and trans are worth that!

I've seen less go for a lot more!

Hi everyone,

I have had to chime in on here. The block has not been tampered with and to prove this we will document the timing cover being removed and will measure the face of the front main cap and the front face of the block, including center and each side of the face to prove no cutting has been done. We welcome anyone willing to bid on this car to come and check the car out. I am willing to prove this car being exactly what it is, a rough ultra rare car, with the original drive train present.

We all have opinions on all the cars on ebay etc etc. We have all seen scam artists in action. This is not a scam, and we can prove it.

Response to some of the things mentioned on here.

The pictures were the best we could take at the moment, we will take better ones later this week, there are also about 200 more on my website, also a 3 min long video of the car. I only want registered ebay users to view the pics on the website, so respond via ebay and i will give the user name and password out that way. I don't want 50k viewers and having endless numbers of comments from people that have no intention on bidding.


Why is it listed as being in AL, while it has an Indiana title?
I live in Alabama and Indiana. The car is in central Indiana, and yes it is under camera surveillance. When i listed the car last night, i didn't realize it brought up the AL zip code on the auction. I sell from both locations, but this car is Indiana.

The car has a clear Indiana title with actual 104k miles stated on it as being actual by the state of Indiana. We have a color photo copy of the old title that was issued in 1978. The new title has the old Indiana title number stated on it. So there is some traceability, this is not a car washed through Broadway title.

We will attempt to make some photos of the frame part number and the frame VIN number.

We will also make photos of the axle tube stampings.

We will also make photos of the transmission vin stamping


HISTORY

Here is the scoop on the car's history as we know of it.

We bought the car from the 2nd owners, we stumbled upon this car around 1984. When we bought this car it was located in a country setting outside of Greencastle Indiana. This car was sitting on a hill in a front yard of a house, there were a few other cars sitting in death row as well. We bought this car and then got our money back. Then a few months later my father went back and bought it again and had it hauled home. We didn't have our own trailer back in the day and the car didn't have the keys with it, and the steering wheel was turned sharply, making it near impossible to load it on a trailer. But we ended up getting a wrecker from Ray Rudd Pontiac in Frankfort Indiana to haul it home.

We bought it for the rarity of it being a Ram Air III car and an automatic, convertible. We had at that time found the first print of the Lil GTO Book. Back in the 80's, that book was one of the only sources that had any information on these GTO's. In that book it stated that it was one of 114 1970 GTO Ram Air III Automatic convertibles that were made.

We had the car for approx. 1 year, before realizing it was a Judge. Yes we didn't know it. Some of you newbies not knowing how it was in the 80's, are spouting off about now and thinking how the fk could you not know. Well, the seller didn't tell us, and there were no stripes, no spoiler , no glove box door emblem, nothing on this car that would identify it as a Judge. Someone had stole some of the parts off of it. And back in the 80's there wasn't much info out there, and the hype was just starting. One night while working on a true VOE car that is still family owned, i discovered the signs, three holes in the glove box and the striping residue in the passenger door jamb. I had been studying the wiring routing under the dash upside down. and those three holes stood out so clear while in that position. We had a few weeks prior wrote to Pontiac for the build sheets on all of our cars. 2-3 days after discovering the signs the build sheet had arrived in the mail and we were so surprised that it was the real deal. If we would have just looked at the rust on the car, you can clearly see the areas that were sanded down and painted over. We have pics of the original trunk lid as well, the spoiler holes were filled and spray canned over just like all the striping was.


We later had found out by a customer that lived in Veedersburg Indiana area. That the first owner was a 17-18 old highschool girl, yes a lucky girl that got this car as a graduation present from her parents. This customer of mine later came back as promised with a Polaroid he took of her standing next to it, in the school parking lot. WOW!!!!

We have since held the car inside and under lock and key. Only telling a hand full of people over the years, one being Paul Zazarine, who took about a hundred photos of the VOE car back in Ohio during the 86 GTO nationals.

I have met a few people online that have had these bench seat cars we all know they are extremely rare. This car also has the trunk release option, the original blue button is still in the glove box. The original glove box door is still in the car also, which inside i am sure are the clips of the emblem.

If anyone wants to know more about the condition or if anyone wants to view the car. Call me, email me. I will be able to attend to any viewing this week. You must be a registered ebayer to view the car and have a good feedback standing.

Sincerely
Jason
B.O.P. Restoration
317 374 7105 leave a message in no answer
[email protected]

ebay user name bop-restoration

Good car and good luck .

there is no question that it has had some stamping done on the YZ, but if the vin # looks good it would clear things up a bunch! hard to tell with the rest of the vin being blocked if anything has been done there,but you cannot blame a guy for covering it up!

Dude....that's a restamp...period. Even if the pope says it isn't....it is!

Does the EUN line up with build date? Block cast date is K219...

Mike

Here is some good reading for those of you that share unfounded comments.

This car has not been forged in any way what so ever.

It is very interesting that those of you are posting very serious statements on here, which i have yet to see a someone from here step up to the plate and come and view this car's authenticity, and share with the community on here what they find. I will and i am happy to answer any and all questions about this car that i can.

The fact that the YZ stamp looks strange, does not prove that the car has been forged. There is plenty of fact to support mistakes at the factory when it comes to hand stampings. But there are statements on here that say that we and or previous owners have forged this car. That is not based on any fact. Who wants to come over and witness the timing cover being opened up for probably the first time and the measurements being made???? We will measure the front main cap face distance compared to the block front face?????? Who wants to come over and view the original gaskets on the motor???? There is nothing to hide on this car, but the last 4 numbers of the VIN to keep true criminals from duplicating a car like this.

The invitation stands.

The moderator has been notified to watch this post. Ignorance is bliss for some, but it doesn't have the same effect on everyone. So read and learn.

__________________________________________________ ________________________

Libel is a published or fixed form of defamation of character; a civil wrong that falsely impugns the reputation or character of a person or entity, opening the target up to public scorn or ridicule. Libel might appear in a magazine, book, newspaper, or in a radio or television broadcast. Signs, billboards or posters can also be mediums for libel. Online libel, or cyberlibel takes electronic forms such as email, mailing lists, newsgroups, chat rooms, podcasts, vodcasts and Web pages. A false charge that is uttered but not published is considered slander.

Libel involves false statements knowingly presented as fact. In the United States opinion is protected as a tenant of freedom of speech, falling outside the purview of libel. Citizens retain the right to comment on public figures and entities, including government and officials. Entertainment, parody, editorials and criticisms that may arguably misrepresent facts are not libelous so long as they are presented for amusement or stated as mere opinion.

Public figures must also meet a higher standard for proving libel than private citizens. Private citizens need only prove negligence, while public figures must show malice.

According to legal experts, one key reason for this seeming double standard is that unlike private citizens, public figures have access to the media. This assures celebrities, government officials and other high-profile figures a public forum for addressing publicized false statements. It is also understood that a public figure is a source for comment and criticisms. Those entering into public life must accept this as part and parcel of celebrity.

In recent years cyberlibel has become an issue. Although many citizens do not yet realize it, comments made to chat boards, newsgroups and even mailing lists are all forms of publication. Criticisms of companies or their goods can be a basis for libel charges if the poster misrepresents facts or fails to qualify his or her post as opinion. Businesses recognize the power of the Internet. Word-of-mouth becomes exponential when comments are posted to a worldwide medium.

To help protect yourself from libel charges, keep a log of all contact(s) you have with a company or person over any potential disagreement. Try to work things out amicably. If compelled to spread the word about a poor experience, avoid exaggeration. Stick to facts and if making a generalization based on your experience, be sure to state it is as your opinion.

Jason,

I started this post, and I still believe that YZ stamp is not original. Since I can still see the factory machine lines on the block, I already know it wasn't ground down, so measuring the surface does not prove anything to me.

I have seen double stamps before, but in this case there are numerous marks in the block code area, like someone worked on it, to cover up the original stamp. In addition the font is not like the factory one on my car. Look at your YZ next to the one I added in the photo. If it was a factory double stamp, it would at least have the correct font.

I have not questioned the car being a Judge. I'm sure it would sell well with no motor. A buyer will look at it, make their own opinions, and decide what the car is worth on their own. Don't worry too much about the chit chat on the internet.

-Doug

bop-restoration

I was just going to read but the whole "Libel attachment" changed that

THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION
People on this board are very serious and knowledgable about these issues.

From your photo the stamping is not consistent to what most people know as correct, it's that simple. If it is indeed the original motor thats great, but with that stamping there's going be comments about it.

The motor may be an original never opened virgin pontiac v8. All you can say is this is how you bought the car.

Maybe the factory line worker stamped the engine wrong and then decided to go find another dies set in a different font and then restamped it.

Maybe someone trashed the original engine found a date correct engine (EUN would then be correct) with no vin and then...well you figure out what could happen.

The history of the car is unknown 1st owner could have changed things, 2nd owner could have changed things, and you could have changed things. And the next owner just may magically find a way to cleanup that block stamping and make the rust disapear off the body. Taking someones word for it doen't cut it anymore. You can go on ebay and find nice dist and carbs that are number matching, NOS correct appearing or what ever these "restampers" are calling them today.
Falling back on well thats what I was told or that is how I bought it is not a defense or a guarantee on its authenticity, even if it is advertised or sold as such.

Knowledgable people are going to scrutanize things and there is nothing wrong with their opinions and statments when posted on websites. I am sure you will have no problem with the sale of this car unless the researve is way up there. Also if someone is local to you I am sure they will check it out. They might not tell everyone else on the board until after they win the auction.

This is a tough topic for someone just joining the site but welcome

I would say if the vin matches block, that is a matching block. The date and cast code also jive, and the seller is willing to stand by it's originality. That also counts in my book.

Theory:The YZ could have been a factory error or a mechanic and or anyone with a wish to enhance or make the original YZ stand out. The face looks untouched to me too.

Both of my 69's have "weak" two digit engine codes so I agree, it's possible that a previous owner wanted the YZ to stand out better for people to see it. Also, one of my VIN stamps isn't centered on the block and all the numbers didn't get stamped, so the worker simply moved the punch over another inch and stamped it again.

$20K and reserve not met?!?!?!?!?!?!?! :pound:

It would appear to, however there is a Baltimore built IV Judge WW block which doesn't fit with this.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/cgi-bin/eun.cgi

Different question however, has anybody ever had a VIN stamp that begins with anything other than a 2 ?

I did have a block that the vin. was lead with a 1 . Which is definately a mistake as the 2 stands for pontiac application and a 1 stands for chevy. This was a Norwood block and to make it even more strange the block looks it has a camaro vin. as it starts in the 500,000 range way to high for a ta . No boss its not painted orange and could you imagine the owner of the camaro that might have got that motor when he put his foot into it !

If you look at the background behind the YZ you can see the block has been peened. Its not smooth behind those letters. Someone erased the old letters with a hammer.

Telli, could the block you are talking about with the 5xx,xxx vin be from '72 since the Firebird that year started at 500,000?
As said above, the partial VIN on the Judge block should start with a "2", not the extra "0". I looked at that several times before it hit me. The normal format of 20Bxxxxxx contains the normal nine digits and the Judge blocks partial VIN contains ten, of course that is my opinion.

Of course he could brag to his friends that he had a big block! ;)

My motor is a 1970 ,Jan. date and cast 979914 with a ws code and a 10n500xxx vin. stamped on bottom , The stamp was either set for a camaro by mistake or he was drunk.
You are correct on the Judge it has a extra 0 leading the vin. stamp. But just like my block as an example there were a lot of mistakes being made .

I think the photos Doug posted here says it all. You be the judge.

NOT THE ONLY ONE!

Sorry guys, just got a photo (thanks Brian) on another 70 WS block from a Baltimore Judge - sorry for the blurry picture, but you can clearly see there is a digit "0" before the 2.

My apologies for raising any doubt.

I can post a better picture when he gets it back from the machine shop.

EUN is close too - 0323056 I think?

L109 Block casting date.

November & December Built Baltimore Plant Cars!!!
 

This is pretty interesting find on here. 2x cars within days of each other being built in the same factory.


1970 Sierra Yellow Judge

Baltimore Built Judge YZ code
UEN 0301914
Date of Block K219 November 21 1969



Baltimore Built Judge WS Code
EUN 0323056?
Date of Block L109 December 10 1969

Both VIN stampings with a 0 in front of the VIN.


Would love see some more proof of the Baltimore car stampings out there!!!!

A huge thanks to those of you who truly are trying to find the answers to these riddles out there. There has to be more of these out there still, please send us some pics.


And by the way, i am not a newbie by any means to this site, i just got a new ID that coincides with my business name, before i chimed in here the other day. I have been into this long before the internet was ever used.

I wouldn't be on here defending the authenticity of our 1970 Judge Convertible unless i was sure it was not a forgery, this Judge wouldn't be worth spending years in jail for.

Jason
B.O.P. Restoration
317 374 7105
www.bop-restoration.com

I do not believe anyone here has questioned that this is a "real" Judge. Rather from "our" experience the block stamping looks to be "tampered with". It may very well be the "numbers matching" block but the block code, in my humble opinion, has been screwed with. Here is another photo of what I believe to be an unmolested block stamping.

Would someone really trying to change the engine code do such a crappy job at it (making it that obvious)??? I also think it was either done at the factory or one of the previous owners making it more visible....:old:

On a different note, I think JasonD should buy and restore it just like that Oshawa Judge he just finished...:jumping::D

I don't believe the factory would take the time to "hammer down" the first stamp. But, it does look like there is a "Y" under there. I've seen some pitiful restamps, so who knows what people are capable of doing.

Noone else gets tired of people threatening libel left and right?
Ridiculous.

Interesting car.

I'd love to see that picture of the girl first owner in the high school parking lot.

I've got a BALTIMORE built 70 JUDGE:

YZ eun: 0301551

Shipped 2-12-70.

Have to get more info, dont remember. Think its J and K on most eng components.

I would question the stamping. I've got a block with a correct EUN and application stamping, but incorrect VIN stamping for the associated date code. Bottom line; someone tried to create a replacement block, but didn't take it all the way. I spent years trying to authenticate my block and eventually determined that it was not the original. I was able to determine that it was restamped with original factory GM stamps by an individual known to posses a complete set of vintage factory stamps.

Sometimes it doesn't pay to do your homework!!!

The GM of Canada paperwork that I received for my 70 Oshawa Judge includes the EUN, is there a way to get that info from PHS on US built cars? If GM of Canada has that info I can't see why PHS wouldn't. Even if you could supply PHS with the EUN on your engine & get a yes/no answer if yours was correct that would help authenticate a lot of these cars.

JLHARPER

It would be interesting to see the block date of your Baltimore car. The EUN is so close the Sierra Yellow Judge, would love to see that date code.


I have a question about the service replacement blocks, where they completely blank or where they marked a certain way??? Also if there where any special foundary marks on the Baltimore engines that the other engines didnt have???

I have heard of guys faking engines, but i dont see how someone could fake one completely and ever get away with it. To find a BLANK BLOCK WITH THE CORRECT DATE would be harder than finding A rare car like this in the first place. Would like to hear some details on the service replacement blocks. I have never seen a blank block before, but i have heard from many they exist. We had a dealer installed Ram Air III motor in one of our cars, it was stamped, but no VIN. It had an EUN # on it as far as i can remember, i can get pics this weekend maybe.



Sincerely
Jason

Jason,

I'll post it tonight.

I have a file with all the codes parts numbers/phs on each car I own, but not with me at this time.
Jeff

STEVE V;

I think this has been asked before of PHS. I will search and see if I can find the thread. Anyone recall?
I think it came down to not wanting to supply TO MUCH info to potential re-stampers by way of supplying the EUN.
Thats what I remember someone saying why PHS cant or wont do this/ I could be worng but what I remember.

PHS does supply the EUN on some of the earlier model years, I know '68 and I believe '67 get them, possibly earlier years as well. My understanding from Jim Mattison was that the '69 and later model year engine unit numbers were not available in the records on file at PHS. My assumption was they just didn't exist/got destroyed for the later years but I guess there is always the possiblility that he has access to them and just protects them.

$30,100 Reserve not met.

Re-listed. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=220259815952

Just noticed, the trans has the same vin configuration as the block.

Mine looks like L 0 2 9.

0301551 .

Another BALTIMORE built car I saw:

J 3 1 9 YC 0227833

I know there have been alot of jabs at this car, trying to make it sound like it was forged. The only thing that is odd on this car is the YZ stamp. And i dont know how anyone can really think that this is a fake, due to the unique number making sense. The VIN making sense, including the 0 in front of it. This must have been a Baltimore thing, since there has been another from there with this same 0 added. And yes you see the trans is the same way, i am trying to get the VIN on the frame to see if that 0 is in front of it there too. So far i cant even see it, but i am going to try tomorrow during the day, with some different lighting.

Please let me know, since i do not know for sure, if the Service Replacement blocks were all stamped with their own unique number above the SR. I have heard they all got the SR stamp, and a unique number. I do not know for sure. Also i am curious if all blocks were made at the same foundary????? If not, where they marked a certain way, indicating their manufacturer???


Just another riddle, in my opinion.

I have also tracked down more people who knew the car back in the day. I have Mr. Grimes from Tom Wood Pontiac on the hunt too. He told me when he owned a Chevy dealer in that time period, that the warranty records were all kept, and they are still in the archive today. Who knows how to pry the lid off that can of worms???? I want to find out for sure who the first owner was on this one. I have found who i think is the 2nd owner. He past away about 4 years ago, but i spoke to his son, the car was to be his. The father, Cleo, hit something with the front end, and tore the radiator up. Cleo was going to give the car to his boy when turned 16, he decided to sell it in fear his boy would kill him self in it. The widowed wife of Cleo is still alive, i have yet to speak to her. I have been promised a series of family photos of the car. It was owned by them in the early 70's, ( 74- 76 ). I also found the guy who flipped the car without titling it, he had it after the guy who was on the title when we bought it.

Would love to find out who owned first, and where the guy is that was on the title and open bill of sale when we bought it. His half brother has a 70 GTO Convertible rotting in his backyard too. I still cant believe it, i have to go take a photo of that one. I will post it later on here. Here is the lovely shop of the guy who flipped it to us. Check out that classy paint shop. I was so amazed by the security fence, i think that might have been a preliminary act of the homeland security:usa2:

Anyway,

The Frame number is attached too, but i cant make any sense really out of the date code, it looks like it didnt get stamped so well. Weak wristed stamper i think.

Help if you can on that frame, it does say Parish on top, the frame number is clear, but that date code, i just dont see it. The car is built second week of January.

Sincerely
Jason

Jason,

Every SR block that I have seen and owned to include NOS SR RA III and RA IV blocks, has a set of digits stamped after the upper case letters "SR." See pic of an 70 RA IV SR block, .

Jim

Jason, That number you posted of the frame is the part number, not the VIN. The VIN would be up on the top of the frame rail above that part number. Judging by the surface rust on the frame, good luck still being able to read it...DW