1969 Baltimore built A-bodies = info request
 

I was wondering if any of y'all with '69 built Baltimore a-bodies would mind contributing a bit of information? I'm trying to determine the extra codes on the trim tag [data plate] of the '69 model Baltimore built Chevelles, but I noticed that the Pontiacs share this 6-digit code in the lower-right quadrant of the tags as well.

What I'd ultimately like to see are some build dates followed by their corresponding 6 digit code...also, does the PHS info show an actual *production* date, or just a ship date?

Anyway, I have a rough *theory* on this 6 digit code [you folks may already have figured it out] but I need just a larger sample of cars to see if it works out...

Thanks in advance, and take care...

No production date--does have the ship. But the ship date is from the factory if bound for a dealership at that time. If a zone ordered car, the ship date is from the zone lot to the dealership.

Well, that figures! LOL!! On '69 Baltimore Chevelles the production date is *sometimes* on the build sheet...is this true with '69 Baltimore Pontiacs as well? Also, on the Chevelles the last 3 digits [ex: xxx171 on tag below] of the 6-digit number in the lower right quadrant of the tag corresponds to box 24 on the build sheet [DP Seq #, see image below from a different car] and is often hand written in...can anyone confirm/deny this being on any Baltimore Pontiacs? I enclosed a tag off of one of my Baltimore Chevelles for reference...

I'm trying to look for any commonalities of the Baltimore A-bodies to help narrow down some information...Thanks!

Build week is 1C and the 6 digit number is 112879.

What is your theory--a Baltimore A-body vehicle numbering?

(Also, I have not found a build sheet.)

I don't know what the numbers mean but there is definetly a pattern. The Body numbers are all over the place but the 6 digit numbers always stay in order.

I have the following info:

VIN build date Body # 6 digit #
B107678 09C 503204 016031
B110236 09C 516654 021668
B122223 10D 527185 044554
B125043 10E 530927 050164
B126014 10E 533488 052040
B127747 10E 527794 055508
B137436 11D 544610 073643
B150249 01B 558552 089157
B151222 01B 548953 101016
B151829 01B 557813 102579
B156002 01D 558063 116620
B156677 02A 566342 118620
B163075 03A 566274 138132
B164889 03B 573646 144717
B166394 03C 574614 149430

I'm thinking the first 3 digits are a Julian date and the last 3 digits we know are a daily sequence number. So, in that 6 digit number you'd have which car off the line on which day...

From John's list, you can see that these 6 digit numbers appear to be lined up according to date, but I don't know how to get a Julian date out of it. Please explain this if you still believe that we can.

It may tell us in what order cars were built--maybe not.

John, thanks for running down all that info!

I think he is saying the first 3 digits would be the Julian dates of that model year (which would be Sept.-Aug. approx), so John's first example 016031 would be the 16th day of the model year, and the 31st car off the line that day. Correct me if I am wrong on that...

http://www.webpik.com/images/274TY4A...O-Judge001.jpgDon't have trim tag at the moment

The third week of Sept. 1968 begins with 9-15 which is Sunday and 9-16 is Monday. If this follows John's 09C correctly as the third week, and 016031 is the 16th day of the model year, then 9-1-68 was the first day of the model year.

That may not be correct, but if it is, then my Judge's 112879 is December 21, 1968. Maybe I am not looking at this correctly. Interesting though.

John, do one of your 01B's represent a Judge?

Yessir, that is indeed what I'm saying...however, whereas the Julian date on a '69 model 400thm transmission started on the calendar day January 1, 1968, and continued each and every day after, I think the Julian date on the trim tags is actual production days, and doesn't include weekends, Holidays, etc...

Maybe just a shot in the dark, but it explains why the numbers are sequential in regards to build date...

For this to work with my dates, 1969 production would have to start sometime in August 1968. It would be nice to know when it started.

Rob, thanks for bringing this up.

This might help you out! 69 GTO VIN: B1701XX Build Date: 4B Body#: 578727 6 Digit# 166099

There is another 6 digit number we haven't discussed yet: It's called the "Carrier Sequence Number", or CSN. It is very similar to the body "gate" or fixture number that has already been mentioned, except that rather than being a one or two digit number (ie, 1 - 14) is a six digit code and represents an internal fixture.

Basically, the flow of information goes like this:

The dealer initiates the order which is tracked by the Dealer Order Number. This is an alpha numeric code (there doesn't seem to be any pattern in terms of sequence or alpha characters, like "PAE175", or "JDCXZB" or "JDCW65"). This number is used to track the vehicle/order until it reaches the vehicle assembly plant.

Once the order is screened for correctness and material availability and passes this check it is "committed" to the assembly plant. At this point the CSN is established. Vehicles are built in CSN order and are tracked through the body shop and paint shop until the VIN is established and affixed to the body. Once the VIN is established it takes precedence over the CSN.

(Incidently, in my most recent assembly plant - the Mishawaka H2 plant, to be specific - the vehicles pop off the end of the line in CSN order, not VIN order).

Here are some carriers in an assembly plant, to give you a flavor of what I am talking about:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3087/...98f5c2c3_s.jpg

I tried to find in my files some matrices that showed actual vehicles being tracked by the Order Number, CSN, VIN and GM Company Owned Vehicle Number (for GM pre-production vehicles) but I didn't have any; the reason being is once I had the VIN I deleted the CSN because I no longer cared. I had the VIN and the GM vehicle number and with those two numbers I could track any vehicle through any durability testing/validation testing, Captured Test Fleet usage or retrofit activities and subsequent sale or auction.

I mention all this because I wonder if the six digit codes you are seeing are the equivalent of what I am calling the CSN.

Disclaimer:

I base this on my experience in GM assembly plants, which started in 1979. I have built preproduction properties in every GM Full Size Truck assembly plant in North America over the last 30 years, so while I have lots of truck experience I have zero experience building Pontiacs or Chevys in Baltimore. I share these thoughts, which may or may not apply here, in the hopes that this may further stimulate your own thoughts/theories.

FWIW -

K

Keith, how was the 6 digit CSN derived?
Was it based on Julian date and order on the line?
Just picked out of the air?
Starts at 1 and increments with each vehicle coming out of the body plant?

:confused:

c) Starts at 0001 and increments with each vehicle coming out of the body shop.

I should add it starts at 0001 with the very first pre-production units in the plant (what we would now call Manufacturing Validation Build - NonSaleable) and increments up through the whole model year. It would then reset at 0001 for the next model year.

K

68gtoMN, your Judge turns 40 this week.

Keith: what info does a Baltimore-Pontiac "Body Broadcast Copy" show? For the Chevelles, it lists a "sequence" number, "serial no." [vin#], "ident number" [body number], "order no." [I believe this to be your CSN number, as it's 2 letters followed by 4 digits], and "F&SO or COPO no."...often times, a "job number" is on Chevelle paperwork as well...the rest of the broadcast copy shows a crap load of options & such, naturally.

Anyway, from the 6 digit number on the trim tag, the last 3 digits are always listed on the buildsheet box 24 as "DP sequence #", which leads me to ask "sequence # from which specific day?", which is where my Julian date theory came from.

Sorry Rob - didn't see this til just now.

I'll see if I can find a '69 Baltimore build sheet (Pontiac branded) and post it here.

I don't think the Order number you mentioned is the CSN; the format doesn't sound right (plus - the "Order number" might be the actual Dealer Order number).

I stole this from a post I made over at V8Buick. This comment was made in the context of Chevrolet, Buick and Oldsmobile brands going down the same line. Perhaps it will be helpful here:

Bump. Good info here for another thread.

i have a 1969 "Z" GTO my plate reads across as 01C 26632 100410

VIN: B157524, Build Date: 2A, Body #:566584, 6 Digit #: 121182..Coincides with John's numbers above...

Here are two more cars I found:

vin: B121479 build date: 10D, Body # 523785, 6 digit# 043086. Expresso Brown 4-spd.

vin: B132831, Body #540385. Sorry did not get build date or 6 digit# for this one. Midnight Green 4-spd vert.

Here is one B155526 565191 1D 115932 It is a 400 2V auto Palladium Silver with Blue Interior

VIN: B132079
Build: 11B
Body: 537959
6 digit:064336

Pretty sure it was built on 11/14/68

Here's a real early VIN GTO from Baltimore plant.

Ebay ad

:)

I just want to point out the air cleaner decal before anybody else does. :D

My '69 GTO is Body 573285 and six digit number is 147469 Baltimore built 03B.

If I'm reading this right, you guys are thinking the first three digits are day 001 to --- from the start of production of that model year and the last three are the order in which it went down the line? Sounds good to me so far. But if so, GTO John's info disproves it (or his database is inaccurate). 10E would have indicated 1 of 3 days (29, 30 or 31). As you can see, the spread is 050, 052 and 055.

Let me print off a calendar of '69 and plot.

I also see this is an old thread.

I would LOVE to know the date of the first built Baltimore GTO was built. I have a Goat here that does not have a trim tag on it (someone ripped it off prior to my purchase). This car is has a very low VIN #...."B100140".

Also, approx how many units were built in a single work day?

~Joe

Line rate back then was typically 60 - 70 jobs per hour off the end of the final line.

So, for an 8 hour day that would be 480 cars per shift. Multiply that by the number of production shifts (1, 2 or 3) and that would be the daily rate, barring any overtime.

Also - be advised that the line started slower during the first few days or weeks of a new model and then ramped up to achieve full line rate.

K

Thanks Keith. I kinda figured it was 350-400ish cars a day. I have searched high and low and I can't pin down the exact week production began for the Baltimore Cars.

Guess I'll have to keep looking.

Thanks,

~Joe

I want to throw something else out there that I have never got a good answer on. My 69 GTO was a Baltimore built car I bought new. I have seen a few 69's in my day and I have notice that very few had the tail panel painted black where the tail lights are, mine was. I was told that Baltimore did not do that. Does anyone out there have any info on this or would like to chime in.

Does anyone know or have any info on this.

I have seen a couple of threads on the black tail panel thing in the past. So, somewhere in the archives....

here is one of the main posts that David's referring to on the black tail panels:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=481786

.

Thanks, I'll post on there because I bought mine new and it was blacked out, I have pictures when I restored it.
Thanks again.

Baltimore numbers
 

These are the numbers on my '68 GTO that was built in Baltimore.

02C 219221 113411 This is across the top of the trim tag.

According to the my information I've always thought that the car was built in February of '68.

Does anyone have any ideas about these? I have read some of the earlier posts.

Baltimore numbers
 

These are the numbers on my '68 GTO that was built in Baltimore.

02C 219221 113411 This is across the top of the trim tag.

According to the my information I've always thought that the car was built in February of '68.

Does anyone have any ideas about these? I have read some of the earlier posts.

02 C = third week of February.

Be advised that build date is specific to the body build; general assembly/final assembly occurs some time after that.

K

I decided to compile my trim tag photos (well over 100 69's) and here is what I can add to this older thread as well as to the other plants in 69. Note 1: that all my trim tags are pontiac cars and vast majority are gto's and some LeMans and fullsized Note 2: convertible GTO's were only built in three plants; Baltimore, Arlington and Fremont with Baltimore producing 3/4's of all these convertibles:

Atlanta: Upper Right: roughly sequential to VIN and trim tag date, starts at 5xx,xxx and ends at about 538,xxx. model or bodystlye don't affect sequence
Lower Right: blank
I suspect the upper right number is the sequential number (not counting the first digit) of total of Pontiac bodies in this plant, 38,000

Baltimore: Upper Right: roughly sequential to VIN and trim tag date, starts at 5xx,xxx and ends at about 580,xxx. model or bodystlye don't affect sequence
Lower Right: is quite sequential to the VIN and trim tag date and starts at roughly zero and ends the year at about 225,000
I suspect the upper right number is a sequential number (not counting the first digit) of body build orders for Pontiac models (this plant only built A bodies in 69) so they would have produced about 80,000 Pontiac A bodies, I think the lower right number
is a sequential body count of ALL cars built in that plant that model year, so Pontiacs would be about a third of production. (typical GM assembly plant produced about 200-250,000 cars). Note that starting in April (perhaps related to the start of A body
production in the Pontiac plant) the number of GTO hardtops built here is very limited and most GTO production is convertibles from this point on. This results in Baltimore building almost as many convertibles as hardtops even though the total
production of GTO hardtops was over nine times the number of convertibles produced

Framingham: Upper Right: Similar to the above plants number is sequential but there is one less digit on early cars, starts at xx,xxx and ends around 134,xxx.
Lower Right: Blank
I suspect the first 5 is not shown so the total number is the sequential number of Pontiac bodies built, i.e. about 135,000

Pontiac: Upper Right: Similar to Framingham there is no constant 5 and the end number is about 275,000
Lower Right: blank
Bear in mind here that A body production started at this plant only in April and that this plant produced only Pontiac cars. The earliest GTO was about 04A and the upper right number at that point was 140,000. I looked at some trim tags of early (sept 68)
GP's and they have a number of about 18,000

Arlington: Upper Right: this plant uses a completely different number here, the number is sequential but to each specific model bodystyle combination. GTO hardtops end at about 11,xxx and GTO convertibles end at about 1,xxx
Lower Right: blank
The above indicates that this plant built about 11,000 GTO hardtops and about 1,000 convertibles, Similarly I had a few other models like Catalina convertibles coming in at about 600 built.

Fremont: Upper Right: Like Arlington this number is sequential to each model-bodystyle combination. GTO hardtops end at about 9,xxx and GTO convertibles end at about 4xx
Lower Left: This plant has an additional six digit number to the left of the lower right six digit number seen in Baltimore. while the number sometimes has a tendency to sequence for periods of time there is no hard sequence
Lower Right: like the number to its left this six digit number is somewhat sequential for periods of time but is not sequential overall.
Like Arlington the top right number gives us the sequential number by model-bodystyle, GTO hardtops coming in around 9,000 and only 400 convertibles. This low ratio of convertibles is in line with period GM market studies indicating that convertibles
were not popular in hot dry climates, especially as AC become more common.

Here is the Fremont example.

by the way, should point out another trim tag thing I noticed...

All six plants in discussion here started the 69 model run using the long style trim and four of the plants used them for the entire model run. Baltimore and Pontiac however both switched to the tall tags around the end of November 68.

The pictures I posted of each of the six plants include examples of the two different tag shapes.

I have a Baltimore built 69 Gto convert right now- the tail panel is painted black.