DCI MOTORSPORTS RAM AIR 5 Intake
 

I am having a real tough time with pulling the trigger on this single four intake for my 5 heads. Because I have so many guy's wanting this to fit under the hood.I am going to do it, but the intake in my opinion is going to limit my heads ability to perform. Take a look at the drawings and see what you think. I feel the intake is to flat ,but I cannot go any higher or it will not fit under a stock hood. I really do not like the thought of investing so much money into a turd. If it didn't cost so much, it would not bother me so much.



Don Johnston
DCI MOTORSPORTS INC.
330-850-5050 shop
330-628-3354 cell
Designer of the DCI Tiger Heads and the NEW DCI Ram Air 5 Heads!!!!!!

If it wont bolt up to a stock set of heads without any work along with a water X over I think your wasting your money!JMHO,Tom

Those guys obviously want the cool factor, that is to say, it's a matter of priorities. Thats cool... Is it the carb or the air cleaner that interferes with the stock hood? Is there not enough clearance to make the intake taller and just mandate the use of a drop base air cleaner?

To be honest, I'm not really trying to appeal to that market. The factory heads are so hard to come by, and the guy's other than yourself and a hand full of others don't use the heads anyway. It seems like most of the guy's I know that have the heads. Would rather keep them in boxes on the shelf and just use them for conversation sake. I know were there are several sets, but they are not on engines. So I think that if I made it to fit them that I would be wasting my money. Not saying that my intake could not be made to work on factory heads. It's just not my target audience.


Don Johnston
DCI MOTORSPORTS INC.
330-850-5050 shop
330-628-3354 cell
Designer of the DCI Tiger Heads and the NEW DCI Ram Air 5 Heads!!!!!!

Don it might fit with a good drop in the base or like my dude scoop from Keefer and a frop base.

quicksilver97ta, I did cheat it up a little higher than a factory quadrajet intake by 3/4", but it is still to low in my opinion. I'm trying to keep it low enough that someone with a Trans Am could still use their shaker scoop. And I think your right, the street guy's are more interested in the cool factor not all out performance.



Don Johnston
DCI MOTORSPORTS INC.
330-850-5050 shop
330-628-3354 cell
Designer of the DCI Tiger Heads and the NEW DCI Ram Air 5 Heads!!!!!!

I agree. Make it so it will work with OEM heads and fit under the hood and don't worry about it choking the heads. If someone wants to unleash their potential, they'll contact someone like Wilson.

If I were putting these heads on one of my GTOs and wanted to keep everything under the hood, I would build a custom cross ram EFI setup with individual throttle bodies. That's just me.

You know me Don, I really want a dual quad... ;) But either way it's got to fit under the hood or people like me won't buy it.
I run a Northwind with a drop base and it fits under a FGF hood even with a 1/4" spacer.
What the NW won't do is fit under a second gen. So you might have to make a car body decision if you want performance height under the hood.

Don, if I spend the money on the redesigned V heads, I would definitely not want them choked by the limiting factor of an intake that has to fit under a stock hood. The factory already made that concession and according to dyno tests the factory V intake really holds the factory iron heads back.

With the raised ports your heads have there is probably only going to be one intake made and I'd like to see it made for utmost performance, not fitting under a stock hood.
Is there any chance the carb base could be made similar to the KRE Northwind that could be milled for clearance at the owners discretion knowing that they will give up some power by doing so.

If your going to make it to fit under a stock hood you might as well make it for a Q-jet base too.................................LOL :D

Don,Lynn's single is very good and pretty much what your going to make!

That would be my vote too. A LOT of guys are looking into EFI these days and the cross-ram would fit that need (as would a low profile EFI 4-BBL Throttle-Body and a higher intake runner design).

So I would not give up on doing a more developed FUNCTIONAL vs restricted) intake manifold design. Anyone that spends the money to buy your RAV split port heads will have the money for a EFI set-up and still have lots of bragging rights (that it is a RAV type design. You said you are not catering to the stock RAV guys. Cater to the state of the art Pontiac guys who want latest high tech with old school roots.

Tom Vaught

Up until Tom's post, I had not really considered EFI. But why not? Lots of advantages there for a street car and the lousy high vapor pressure pump gas. A cross ram EFI would be really cool. For my personal use, keeping it all under a stock hood is a must. I wouldn't cut up my original muscle car with a hood scoop. I like the appeal of stock looking and a killer engine hidden under the hood. As said, the manifold needs to work too. A tough situation with tall heads and low hoods.

Will McCarty's intake fit your heads and stock V heads without major modification and will it make reasonable power?

In my opinion, your target market for aftermarket RA-V heads fitting under a stock hood is going to be extremely limited.

You should not compromise your intake design to fit under a stock hood. If it fits McCarty's heads, and is EFI ready, I'll take 1.

Do you need an intake to test fit with your heads?
How close are your exhaust ports/header bolt locations to McCartys V heads?

Sorry for the Hi-jack Don! :o
On subject, I too think you should make the intake for optimum performance, and not worry about the hood height.

As for the cross ram, how about something like one of these?
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...m3-650x433.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o.../crossram1.jpg

I will play the devil's advocate and say "make a short deck block" then you could have a taller intake. Problem solved.

a custom converted ford tunnel port single 4 made 30 HP over a stock intake!It was the same height as the stock intake.That was with just a intake change with same carb and no tuning.It is worth the change IMO.Tom

Don I personally think that folks who want a tall single plane or dual fours would spring for a custom intake. For my application I will need something that fits under the hood. If that means having an intake made than that's what it means. I would let the folks who buy them drive your market.

The 2nd picture posted by s2k1 would be fairly easy to cast up as it is actually 2 runners systems. Do the work properly and would could use one mold for both sides if you got the stagger right.

Tom Vaught

If I were spending the the money to put a RamAirV in my Firebird or GTO I would not worry about the hood clearance. I would want the best intake manifold you could make. I would make the adjustment with a cowl induction style hood. The RAV is not original to the car, so why worry about using an original hood. Just my 2cents.

Just asking,but wouldn't it be easier to let say some place like kinsler to do all the design work? That way other than the engineering design behind it he wouldn't have that much into it. Just a thought.

In this case I was referring to the cross-ram/EFI deal.

Again just my opinion,but for those that say put a cowl induction hood on it, first let me say that I had a car once with a 4" cowl, an it was a PIA to drive. Secondly, I have yet to find a decent looking first gen Firebird cowl inducted hood.

Don I would say to build an intake to at least support the heads out of the box. Why in the world would you wan't to spend the money to buy a set of these heads then choke em out with a sub par intake? Good grief, use your stock d ports if you have to have it look all original. Or buy a set of IV's and use the factory intake. If these heads work well, more performance minded people will be buying them. jmo Mike

No way will I take a $40,000 Firebird and either cut the freakin 400 hood or put some stupid cowl induction hood on it just to run V heads on the street.
This may be the race section, but I thought the whole point of your heads was to cater to the street crowd.
It needs to look and fit somewhat stock or what's the point.

Yes it is the race section. Why would you put your money into a 400 cfm head, then spend more of your money designing a 300 cfm intake so x, y, and z can be the cruise night hero. That makes no more sense then cutting up a 40,000.00 bird. Besides, a super 400 hood looks pretty darn good.

I understand the "under the hood" comments, but I would want an intake that works with the heads, not one that restricts them.

I also agree that anyone wanting to race it could look to Marcella or another intake magician.

I think it would definately hurt sales if you HAD to have an intake "made" to get any where near the potential of these heads. You'd have a TON of money in the package. Just match the cylinder head out of the box and leave some grinder room. Mike

Agree w MJM on the need for a custom intake as a deterrent to great out of the box high performance for a niche market. My suggestion would be to learn from history and give your heads a race type performance intake that let's your product achieve fantastic performance results. If it is a compromise I think you will lose your largest market. The WOW factor will always be there with any V type head. Make yours the clear choice for max performance and I feel you will capture however many or few sales there are to be had. You know the market better than most. The reason the "other" head you designed is on more 1k plus builds than any other is longevity and it continually proves it is the best choice for an above average performance build.
Yes there are some great cooks out there with some amazing E, K and W builds. There are and will be some impressive C builds too. But the T is on more faster than 8 second builds in my opinion. It has proven in spite of many challengers, to be the go to head for max performance.
With the given small market, and the large amount of money it takes to complete a motor of this level. A no compromise approach must be taken. Thanks for allowing us to give input on your financial risk!

^^^I couldn't agree anymore with mystic and MJM^^^

Well Don, you have a real challenge ahead ! The posts are evenly split between the stock hood guys and the "do whatever it takes" to get the most out of the head guys. We both know there is no single intake that is going to do both, especially with a 10.200 deck and tall heads. Now you get to feel a little of what the OE engineers deal with every day. You are not going to be able to make everyone happy. Again for me as a potential buyer, I have to take myself out of the mix if I have to have a low sheet metal manifold made to use them on a stock hood street car. But again, how many crazy people are out there like me? I could be wrong but it seems to me people wanting the absolute most out of your heads would be the most likely ones to have a sheet metal manifold made, not the other way around. The slightest thing that won't "bolt on" seems to stop many street performance enthusiasts in their tracks.

you changed the heads when you cast them because you could improve them. its this type of thinkin that got you to this point. no sense in changing directions now.



i hesitated to post because i dont want my post to sway Don one way or another. with the tall deck block nothing is goin to 'bolt on' except a custom. and then is it really a bolt on?

Lynn McCarthy's RA-V heads were cast to look like a Street Factory RA-V head in aluminum.
Stock Rocker Stud Locations, smaller ports vs factory, ..........

And then a guy comes on the board and wants a 1600 HP engine using those heads with some turbos, on a "street car".

I think Don's heads being a new design (obvious that they are easily recognized as not being anywhere close in appearance to Stock V heads. Taller, different port shapes, factory V exhaust manifolds/ V type headers will not bolt up as different port height.

So let the man build a IMPROVED RA-V type head that uses the split port, that uses the raised ports, that uses a PROPER intake manifold for the intake air flow: be it single 4 bbl, cross-ram efi, whatever. Just don't choke up the head for a stock appearing low profile low flowing intake.

Tom Vaught

ps remember Don did the ground work on the heads that later became the Tiger Heads so you know that the basic product will be a good one as far as design.

x100

Just so there is no confusion here...
My 69 Firebird would not be considered a street car by most, unless you refer to ALL cars which participate in DragWeek street cars. The MINIMUM design goal of 1600hp should have been easily achievable on pump gas if McCarty’s V heads actually flowed what was promised. They do the flow enough to make lots of power with twin 88’s. Now the only question is whether the castings are going to hold up.

Back to topic.

Don, go with your gut on this one.

Don, the key to your decision is that you have so many guys wanting one, but is there enough interest to make it a profitable deal for you? The number of folks buying them must justify the cost of having them made, simple as that. If you can't sell enough of them to make money at some point, it's not going to be a good deal for you.

As far as performance potential, or limiting power, etc, that's not really a big deal for the group that would want them, IMHO. Sure, a low rise intake may pinch off some power with heads of that flow potential, just the laws of physics, but does it really matter in the big scheme of things? The guys buying them would be a group who accepts small comprimises in power production to retain stock/stock type components. They want to look pretty much stock, and then run really quick at the track. This group of folks is larger than you think.

Even with that said, I wouldn't have a clue if the group wanting to use your new heads, and keep their stock hoods, and quite a few other stock components in place, would be large enough to make the intake a profitable venture for you.......Cliff

I think Butler built some of the motors for the "redo" Bandit Transam and then took a Victor and milled the s___ out of it to make it fit under and 2nd gen hood. Not sure if that is an option (making an intake that flows appropriately that could be milled, etc.)

If I'm not mistaken - most of the manufacturers who supply speed parts (Edelbrock, etc) make a few more of their bucks from the street crowd.

Cliff's post 35 describes what I am interested in doing almost to a T. But I may be the only one? That's the unknown here. If a sheet metal manifold was the only way to get it done, I wouldn't say it was a stopper, but certainly a major consideration. If I was building a serious race engine I would EXPECT to build a sheet metal intake. You may want to run a poll. One of my best friends has a Cobra kit car with a tunnel port FE. Makes 630 HP in street trim. It's just plain cool! You can put almost any engine you want in those kits, but a tunnel port in that car, even if it's not the fastest Cobra kit car in the world, wins lots of style points. And it is plenty fast. I would like to do something similar with my Pontiac.

Did Lynn have a clue of the effort that goes into a proper Drag Week car/engine?

Jay Brown has won drag week in his class a couple of times .
http://bangshift.com/blog/screaming-...ek-hammer.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDJ_ZMP6JCo

My point is Jay Brown was an EXPERIENCED Drag Week Competitor, was running Ford SOHC custom aluminum heads, Intake, fuel injection, etc (he can tell you some stories about the BS he went thru to build his SOHC engine. He has his own dyno and wrote a book about dyno testing Ford Engines. (not a one or 2 pull Tony B deal). So you are not alone with having bumps in the road during a build.

I sold him some Turbos a couple of years ago for a twin turbo project so he may be out there waiting for you when your stuff shows up.

All that being said, The aluminum heads from Don are a small piece of the total pie for a RAV type engine and bragging rights because you have a unique head doesn't get you very far, (look at the grief the CV-1 Boys put up with). At some point they say put it on the track. A proper intake manifold will get you closer to a proper package vs a package that does not work.

Tom Vaught

i'm in the -will sacrifice some power to keep my virgin hood- group of Ram5 prospects.

Wonder if my group (group A) has considered cost/effort/potential hassles of exhaust systems (headers) that will have to be custom made for the raised port head ?
Money is money .... i have less than most . :2cents:

Stock config head has aftermarket exhaust ready to ship/install . (massage into place)

If proposed DCI low rise will fit with McC heads too ... that would be an advantage to overall sales of intake ... i think

i wasn't expecting to be able to use any "good" intake (better than stock 5 flat intake) on a 2nd Gen F-body anyhow. But need something to go under A-body hood.

Group Z (the big dogs) nothing about parameters will matter very much .
Just maximum flow - n - go .
DCI head seems like the ultimate flow-go head .

Open to all corrections and briefings :nerd:

I hear everyone saying I do not want to cut up my expensive hood.

TAKE THE THING OFF AND RUN AN AFTERMARKET HOOD.

Store your precious hood for a stocker rebuild/sale at some point.

That is what I did, Le Mans hood with Steel Super Duty Scoop for playing. High dollar 64 GTO hood safe in the garage.

Tom Vaught

i hear you Tom . ;)

But i gotta be mr. slick shet with the bone stock look / easy prey / deer in the headlights kinda thing going on. :cool:


"he just got funky loud mufflers - bust his'ems lil Pontiac azz bubba"

:popcorn:

I hear you too Tom. But Pontiac had some of the best looking hoods ever put on a car! They even ran a few print ads talking about how cool their hoods were in the late 60's. Chopping up the stock one or putting on a poor fitting fiberglass one on an otherwise mint muscle car is not my style. I would be willing to give up 20-30 HP. Actually, I would make it up somewhere else, with cam or other tuning. Bottom line for Don will be: Is it a race head package or a street performance package? Knowing Don, he will go for max. RAV performance and the race guys will be happy. If the street guys want to run the heads, we will have some extra work ahead. As far as profit and size of market, that's the question we don't seem to have an answer for. As an outside observer, I think the street performance market would be much larger. I can see these heads on all kinds of Pontiac street performance cars, cruisers, power tour cars, all that kind of stuff. That may not be the image Don wants for the heads. I see more and more "crate" older Hemi cars rumbling around my town than they ever actually built the first time. Everyone wants the coolest, biggest, best engine package the manufacturer ever offered, but in a sleeper package. Tom, your idea of a cross ram intake has lots of merit. Long runners, low package for hood clearance. EFI would make it even better.

I was under the impression Don's heads were mainly for engines with smaller bores and/or street engines. Lynns heads supposidly work well on large bore engines, which is the direction race engines have gone, but a lot of guys with 400-455 engines would like to run V heads on the street or strip.
If Don's intent is for these to fill a street market he'll be severly limiting his market if we have to resort to 1980's hood scoops or cowl induction aftermarket hoods.

The all out race guy is more apt to build an intake since he'll probably run a scoop, the street/strip guy just wants to bolt on a top end package and go. There's your mass market for a cast intake.
For every one that's ok cutting or buying a different hood, you'll loose a whole lot more that think it's just not worth it.

Making it EFI capable isn't a bad idea though, I don't care if the intake doesn't look exactly OEM stock, it just has to fit under the stock hood.

Wow I go away for a couple of days and I get way more feed back than I could have imagined. Thanks everyone for the feed back, it's exactly why I posted this. I need to help determine what direction I need to go with a cast intake to fit the largest market. First of all I need to clarify a few things. Number one, like my Tiger heads my ram air 5 head is designed to fit many different applications not just a street head or race head. Yes this head is going to move allot of air on a stock block and aftermarket blocks with big bores. So please do not categorize it as a street or race head, it is meant to be very versatile. The cool factor is just a side benefit although a very big one. I think from the phone calls, emails, and feed back here that my audience is going to be about 50-50. I really did not know what the market was going to be when I first started this project, it just sort of took it's own direction. Number two, I tried really hard to maintain the factory look with this head so that it was immediately identifiable by a knowledgeable Pontiac enthusiast. Yes I made allot of major improvements internally to the head, but outwardly I wanted to maintain it's factory appearance and flavor.
After reviewing all of the post's so far. I feel that a cast intake is going to be a compromise to the heads full potential, but is needed to fill the street enthusiast part of the market. I have been working on the design over the weekend and have made a couple of changes that will help with over all performance. I think after modifying the plenum and changing the runner taper I can come up with a decent piece that will perform maybe not 100%, but good. I do like the idea of a cross ram, but I feel the cost of that intake would limit my audience as well. Remember too, that the heads are still in the infant stages and it can only get better from here. As I start to recoup my investment by selling the heads. I will be coming out with more and more products to compliment the heads. I wish I could hit the lottery or the Pontiac Gods would rain money on me, but unfortunately neither of those have happened. So I will just keep plugging along as I can to come up with the money on my own.



Don Johnston
DCI MOTORSPORTS INC.
330-850-5050 shop
330-628-3354 cell
Designer of the DCI Tiger Heads and the NEW DCI Ram Air 5 Heads!!!!!!

Don, I'm sure any intake that you come up with will complement the heads to the best potential possible considering the limitations involved. That's what your "target" audience will be looking for, and not have any have any unrealistic expectations.

Also consider, that I run a stock intake (mildly modified) without a spacer with much smaller heads, deep into the 11's in full street trim at 3740lbs race weight. I'm sure your heads and intake set-up would be worth a butt-load more power than what my "conservative" parts are making. Certainly, anyone looking to do what I'm doing with under the factory hood stuff isn't going to be disappointed in the end result.....IMHO.....Cliff

PS: I'm hoping that your intake comes with both bolt patterns, or at least enough material to add them and a spread bore gasket without any type of spacer/adapter/etc...

I'm a stock hood guy...but say Go For Power.
Plenty of other stuff for stock hood guys to run as deep as 8's.
We need 6 and 7 sec guys for the other makes.

My biggest concern is that the low rise of the intake will hurt torque more than horsepower. That being said though, I also think that the cylinder heads performance potential is great enough to over come this short coming. So even though this intake is not an all out style intake. It will be good enough to make some really good TQ and HP numbers at a very streetable rpm level. As for the racers and street, strip guy's. I have an intake on the drawing board for them as well. I'm leaning towards a sheet metal tunnel ram style intake for the all out performance crowd. That way the plenum and runner lengths can be adjusted for each application. For those guy's, no one size fits all will work. At that level things get allot more finicky.


Don Johnston
DCI MOTORSPORTS INC.
330-850-5050 shop
330-628-3354 cell
Designer of the DCI Tiger Heads and the NEW DCI Ram Air 5 Heads!!!!!!

If I was going to address keeping it under the hood, I would make it as high as possible to fit under a 1st gen Firebird and GTO. I'm not trying to exclude the 2nd gen Firebird guys, but every 1/2" of height will make a difference in the performance potential. I would work with an after market company to produce a special "Tunnel Port" Shaker to allow for the use of the higher manifold. Try to keep the look as close to the original Shaker, but with the additional room. I know this is a compromise and you've done great job at working to maintain the factory look of the heads, but a keen eye will be able to tell those are some pretty high ports on top.

The heads have a huge benefit over the factory casting, I would hate to see them being choked.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

I would agree with Calvin on the fit under the hood of a 1st gen firebird/68-73gto thing.

I've been chewing on this for a few days and I have come up with a few random thoughts FOR WHAT THEY'RE WORTH

(1) The Pontiac world already has a aftermarket head with a "stock hood clearing" intake. And most (I DID NOT SAY ALL) that were screaming for that hood clearing intake are still kicking the tires and doing nothing with the product after 5yrs.I think there will be some guys that Would/Will use that intake and be bound and determined to make it work!So ask yourself are the guys asking for a hood clearing intake tire kickers or guys that will use the product and figure out what will make it work?
(2)Just the thought of the word Ram Air 5 just gives me chills makes me think of the Pinnacle of Pontiac performance!!!!*
(3) With going to the 5 stuff you already have to buy heads,Intake,Cam,headers(maybe something I'm forgetting) but if your looking to bolt on what once was the cream of the crop in the Pontiac world why on earth would you not get another hood to make it what it is..........some REALLY REALLY awesome stuff!
Just my 2cents*:confused:

There I fixed it.