What is driving the price on this 65???
 

Maybe I'm out of touch but my way of thinking is that this is worth about 5K max. I mean it's a very low option car and none of the drive train is original. Yes it's a factory black tri-power 4spd car so is that what's driving the price?

I like black and I was going to bid but not anymore....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ponti...711617&vxp=mtr

Maybe because it's rust free?

How does he know it was "special ordered"? I think he saw the "Special Equipment" title on the PHS and thinks that somehow means something unique.

Looks like a nice solid plain ole May of 1965 Pontiac Michigan built GTO - one of tens of thousands built.

K

Keith - it must be rare...

I think that makes it one of one...:rolleyes:

Can't be a one of one ... I have one too. :o

I have no idea. All I can guess is that these are uninformed buyers. Many people will disagree with me, but I have run the numbers (restoration costs) on these cars(64-72 Pontiac A body cars) for the last 15 years. A few years back the calculations indicated that it is less expensive to purchace as restored car than to restore one yourself, even if you had to finance the cost, or get a second job.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that some people don't enjoy doing restoration work, but if one's goal is to enjoy driving a car and taking it to cruise nights and shows, buying a mostly ready or ready car is the way to go. This of course does not apply to cars that have an inherent value due to family owned etc.

It has '66 rally gauges in it, also, not '65 gauges. So it's been messed with a bit. I think the simple fact that it was born black, with a 4 speed and trips is the driving factor here. Plus, it looks to be a worthwhile and solid car. I'd love to have it to restore. Just my kind of goat. I'm not a big 'option' guy.... more of a performance guy, so it suits me just fine.

Andre, you are correct. However, the allure of a 'potential CHEAP' real GTO is strong. many don't HAVE the 30k needed to buy a done one. They also don't realize it'll take every bit of that to do one that needs doing. I've run into a few old cars I wanted, that were CHEAP, but when I did the math, I would have taken a bath even if the car was GIVEN to me. The costs of labor, parts, and materials is higher than it's ever been, but the values of the cars are down a bunch. Still, I like the car in question.

"Mostly Rust Free." This phrase always concerns me - the car could be 49% rust, and he's still telling the truth - right?

Then I reviewed the pictures and saw daylight peeking through the trunk floor; saw the rust at the bottom of the door, etc. Also - I read the ad carefully: It doesn't seem to run.

People ask me why I'm fixing my car instead of just buying another one. This is why.

Simple: shiny red paint, rather than the rust and obvious flaws that the buyers can't see and would rather pretend are not there. Shiny red paint makes all of that better when clicking on the 'bid' button.

I dont think it takes $30k to get a nice car any more. Im thinking high teens-low 20's gets you a car that is very nice and needs very little. Obviously not a show car for that kind of money, but a reliable car that will get plenty of thumbs up from the populace,a and looks good at the local cruise in.

"saw the rust at the bottom of the door" I saw that too. Yes the floors look good but I'll bet that once you strip all the paint off the new owner will be disappointed with all the old rust repair. I don't think it's as solid as it's made out to be.

My guess is that it's a tri-power or black or both that has everyone all exited.

the pans look prety good from the pics and the bottom of the panels look ok but.... thats a lot of work

No clue on the price but if you think that's a 5k car I should just throw mine in the dumpster.

So what would you value it at then? Maybe I am out of touch with project prices.

I have the one of one '64 with a "factory" 12 bolt...;)

Of course, I didn't say which factory the 12 bolt came out of or when it came out of the factory.

i agree with most all thats been said pretty much.

Was likely left for dead after giving up all its favorable drivetrain pieces.
Then someone got it cheap and tried to make it a car again - as cheap as possible.
De-chromed and De-emblemed etc ...
Most likely had no clue or care about what it once was at that time.

"previously restored"
"professional" paint
"original" 12 bolt

It'll probably hit 10k or close .
A lot of guys have the hots for a 65 Faktry Black/Black 3x2 4spd Hardtop .
Several folks who know about my fixer-upper periodically check in to see if its for sale .
3.90 car with drivetrain intact

Keith S. probably has a list of interested prospects for his 65 .

A really really rusty 65 Red/Black 3x2 4spd Hdtp with no drivetrain in my area sold a while back for over 3k .
Was basically just a title with tags

The funniest part about that is ... that page is Blank.
LoL


Hard to say either way ...
but it has the makings of a Lot Car of that period
not conclusive tho

Missing its original tri-power/Muncie drivetrain, this car can NEVER be restored to "original". Unless the original motor is found and installed, it will ALWAYS be a "clone"!

Accordingly, any other "clone" is substantially the same value as this "real" car. A review of recent listings of "clone" cars will show that they can be bought as finished cars for a lot less than what it will take to fix/repair/update this car.

This car is a mess! It is obviously a hodgepodge of pieces/parts and is pretty much a basket case as far as the interior/dashboard/instrumentation/bumpers/trim/nuts and bolts/etc. (Yea! I know I left out a lot!)

Take out your parts catalog/look on Ebay/read other ads. Add up the prices of what it will cost to fix this car. Add in the cost of the body work/paint job/upholstery, etc. The price this car is currently bidding at ($8,700) plus all these other out-of-pocket costs PLUS labor costs will be greater than what a REAL original car can be bought for.

If that is not enough, a black car is the absolute hardest car to make/keep looking straight!

I was thinking the same thing about my '66 lol..
When I saw the title of the thread and pics of the car, I thought maybe it was up into the teens. $8K doesn't seem that out of line for a documented Black on Black, 4spd, tri-power '65...Even in that condition.
However, I wouldn't want to pay that for it 'cause I know how much work and money that's involved in getting it right.....On the other hand, if it was mine, I wouldn't sell it for $5K

Okay so I agree that the PHS confirming that its a black tri-power car is the main driving factor here.

So what if this same car was some other color like say burgundy, would it still be in that price range or is black really that desirable???:confused:

it is mostly because it's a 65 :D

I concur. It's because it's a 'sixty-five. :)

65 does have some bearing on it I'm sure. It's one third of the (my) holy trinity-
-'65 GTO (any good color),
-Tri-power
-4spd...
That's the price driving combo I think.
If it goes very much higher than it is now...say, over $10K....well, then that would be something to really wonder about.

IMO being a real black car has alot to do with the price. The fact that its a real tripower 4spd car is awesome, but not as uncommon as a black car. After collecting 30 GTO convertibles and not end up with 1 black car ,that tells me black is rare. I searched for 8-10 years for a black/white 65 tripower 4 spd #s matching car and was only able to find 2. The 1st one was not a good car and the 2nd one was being sought after by Paul Teutul of Orange County Choppers, and he had more money than I did. 6 years went by with out seeing another black one until Paul decided to sell his. I had to have a black car no matter what. I bought the cars 2 hrs after it was for sale and over paid for it, but I have a black car now. There are alot of cars painted black, but very few factory black. I am not a fan of any car any color that is not a born with color. Perhaps the bidders are like me. Willing to pay more for something that they really want.

Well put, 6T5. And my esperience, exactly, all the way on the opposite side of the country. For the past 35+ years. Last real Starlight Black '65 I saw for sale was a 4bbl 4 speed car in San Francisco for $700 in 1985. The tops of the fenders, quarters, and roof were rusted through like lace from being at the beach all its life. Original paint with a red pinstripe, too. It was a shame. I passed on that one.

whats driving the price is the buyers..not the seller....its been for sale for a long time on craigslist...they had no idea it was a trips car at first....and it was about half price at first

threads like this crack me up....ITS A 65 GTO-TRIPOWER -4 SPEED and BLACK....thats whats driving the price....geez...around here its probably $12.5 to $15....there just arent any 65s available around here that are still unrestored...and that car isnt an old restore its just been painted..and ITS A TRIPS 4 SPEED BLACK car....

Anybody else agree with this statement? I don't. I guess I’ll throw my documented tri-power, 4 speed, LL paint code, non-original “WS” engine GTO in the dumpster as well. Seeing that it will ALWAYS be a "clone".

I do agree that this car is a mess and is a hodgepodge of pieces and parts.

I do agree that my 67 Firebird is a clone. It was born a plain jane Firebird with standard interior and a previous owner dropped in a 400, added a 400 hood with 400 emblems, 400 grill and interior.

I agree with you, '67. I disagree with Doug. This car is a real GTO, not a clone. It was born a black trips 4 speed car, and that is its pedigree. No argument. A restored but cloned Tempest or Lemans will never even come close to the value of this car in restored condition. And that's as it should be. Even with a completely different powertrain, it'll always be a real GTO.

Jeff, I think you may be misunderstanding what Doug meant by 'clone'. I don't want to put words in his mouth but what I understood him to be saying is that any car that doesn't have it's born-with equipment (or at least drive train) is a clone. I disagree but I think that's what he was saying. He was not saying that the car in question wasn't an actual GTO.
By that standard a good 95% or more of the cars on this forum are clones.

I agree with most of this but the first sentence. If it is a real GTO, having a replacement drivetrain does not make it a "clone." Many GTO cars (maybe a majority) do not currently sit with their "born with" drivetrain. Most have had some part of the drivetrain replaced whether it be motor/tranny/rearend. A huge number of the rare cars such as the RAM AIR cars and JUDGES, have had restamped engines and just about anything (here come the flames!!!) that came from the showroom with 4.33 gears or higher lost its engine by the time Disco music was all the rage.


This year I sold a matching numbers HO 68 Bird I had for some years. I had a prospective buyer tell me that because it lost its long branch manifolds in the day "it would never really be a matching numbers car." This was a guy who I wanted to run far and fast from... For some people there is nothing pristine enough unless it was in a time capsule.

I digress- to that last part- owning a black Firebird myself (my car won Best in Show at the 2012 Firebird Nation show in Malta, NY so the car is really lazer straight) I can personally attest to black being the one color that will take the fun out of owning a musclecar!!! :( I will NEVER buy another black car again!!!

Uncle Sam and Greg, aI appeciate the posts. I agree with UncleSam. Doug is mis-informed on the definition of clone. A clone is a replica. A FAKE. A counterfeit. Not a modified or repaired original car. "one that appears to be a copy of an original form", as stated in Webster's. So the phrase that this car would be a clone with a non-original drivetrain in it is false. Even with a 340 Mopar engine and a torquflite, this GTO would not be a clone. It would be a real GTO that was no longer original. BIG difference in value and rarity. Originals are rare. Copies are infinite.

I was jaded by GTO pricing because I bought my first GTO in 1973 for $150.

'64 convertible, Cameo White, White Top, Dark Blue interior. 4 bbl, 3 spd, Safe-T-Track rear. Original drivetrain.

Ever since that time, I've had a hard time accepting the escalating prices for GTOs. But they are caused by other hobbyists willing to pay those prices.

Before you think anybody had overpaid for this car, consider that LOTS of ebay car auctions never get consummated. Until you determine that money has actually changed hands, the bid price is meaningless.

It is obvious this car did NOT undergo a ground up resto completed in 1990.

Gotta wonder why the car was stripped of anything of value and then slapped together with odds and ends with a red paint job.

Reminds me of my 4 spd '73 TA with deluxe Saddle interior. Interior was pretty mint. Trans & rear were original (block was too when I bought it, but ate a carb stud, cracked, and I tossed it in the dumpster, literally). I got hit hard in the left rear quarter, then sold for $300 in '80. A few years ago, I found the VIN in some old paperwork and then tracked the car down. It had been converted to auto, clutch pedal tied up under the dash. A later model interior had been installed. It was obvious to me that the car had been parted out down to the shell and then resurrected from boneyard stuff. It was not drivable at the time. Owned by a young guy who hoped to restore it one day.

But as to what the GTO is worth, if you have to have a Black 4 spd, Tri-Power '65 Hardtop, does it really matter that it will cost more to restore than it will ever be worth?

Just aren't that many out there. Rumor is Keith would trade his for last week's winning Powerball ticket. Then again, probably just a rumor. :)

How many of you would drool over this car if it was restored to factory correct condition?

I have never been very impressed with "original" or "matching nos." especially when that tends to be limited to the engine. I prefer "factory correct" considering the entire car.

Doug would call what I admire a "clone". That's okay, everybody has a different idea of what they really like.

I'm a convertible guy and a '64 guy at that, so hardtops don't do a lot for me. But I love Keith's car because of the story behind it. Yes, it retains a lot of its from the factory parts but that isn't what is most interesting about his car to me.

The ebay car probably has a completely unknown history aside from the PHS doc. That detracts from the car in my view. "Special Order"? Essentially, every '65 Pontiac was special ordered by somebody working for a Pontiac dealership. Some were ordered for Dealer stock, some were ordered for a live customer to the customer's particular specifications. But I doubt anybody knows why this car was ordered with the options it had or who the original retail purchaser was. Just know that it was invoiced to some Pontiac Dealer in the Chicago Zone.

I hope whoever buys it turns up on this forum. I don't care what he paid for it. Anybody that is into the '64/'65 GTO is alright by me.

I dont think black is rare..ive sent 3 to the crusher...today they would probably be builders..back then they where so ruff they got parted..ive seen 4 or 5 converts black, and at least 10 black hardtops in Junkyards...

I think the combination of black with trips and a 4 speed is just desirable..id rather have mariner turquois..but no one asked me..lol

Blackflawlash Poem
 

My black car, every time I think of her-
I think about that eyelash that fell out
And landed on the finish as I was polishing her
At the show.

The one that you could see on the hood
Ten feet away, and made people stop
And look at that Godawful
Flaw in the paint.

Of course when the wind blew
30 seconds later, the flaw blew away
And then landed some tree pollen
Sadly this then

Looked as if someone took a 2 liter
Pepsi bottle and shook it and then
Squarely aimed it at my finish
In mist form.

Interesting thread. I was wondering what the current value of a (A) starlight black (213) black interior 65 GTO tri-power four speed is as there is one for sale locally. It's a solid survivor that needs everything. The engine is not original and the interior is now white.

From what I can tell by the pictures, about 10k for openers. That car needs to be snagged!

Does it run? Those seat covers are incorrect for a '65.

I'm kinda glad that car is not near me. I'd be wheeling and dealing like a %$##@ trying to figure a way to make that one mine.

The owner says it runs well but she was not there when I stopped by. She got it in a divorce settlement and didn't know much about the car.

I talked to a friend that's an expert on early GTOs (also a member of this forum) and he also looked it over. He said that he's known the car locally for at least 25 years and it was stored inside for at least that long. His thoughts were that it was a $8-10k car and is an excellent starting point. He said he might put in an offer but is on the fence at the moment.

If it's still for sale tomorrow, I'll go grab the VIN and run PHS on it to confirm that it started life as a tri-power 4-spd car.

Wish I still had that 65 WS block I found in a local barn as there's a high likely hood that it was the original block for this car.

Yeah.. The seats aren't correct and they are also supposed to be black.

I'll update this thread if anything happens.

Update - The car was purchase by a gentleman from Iowa and will be restored.

I see that this one went for $10K.

I have a hard time understanding why my ia2 street gto would be worth any more than a lemans or tempest with the same drivetrain? born as a 4 barrel 4 speed gto but how is that even relevant? it was my first car so it doesnt mean a thing to me, i will die with my car. but to someone else ... why do they care?

Just curious. Why has the 65 GTO on ebay not sold at 26,000. 4 Speed, 3'2s in Seattle? Yellow car or Mayfair Maze. Thanks.

Because of the pedigree. Because they could rip your IA2 out and bolt in a 389 and have an authentic GTO if they wanted to. It's why a real Shelby 427 Cobra is worth more than a kit. And why a real 1937 Cord 812 is worth many times a 1969 Glenn Pray 1937 Cord 812 copy. And why a weapon or artifact that has a documented history in a famous battle is worth more than the same item that was never issued. And why a real Van Gogh or Rembrandt is worth more than a copy. Pedigree is everything when it comes to CASH value. I think personal value and cash value are two different things to many people. To me, personal value wins out as far as keeping the cars the way I want them. In the real world, correct original will generally pull more cash value than a clone or copy or fake. For me, I happen to have real tripower 4 speed '65 GTO because that's what I wanted 30+ years ago and I was willing to pay the $1200 it took to buy it. I didn't want a 326 LeMans back then. I wanted a GTO. Not an autiomatic trans, 4 BBl GTO. A tripower, 4 speed GTO. I think many collectors today feel the same way. Funny thing is, 30 years later, I like LeMans and Tempest cars more than ever, and rarely see them: they've all been cloned into something else. To me, a '65 GTO that was born with a black exterior and a red interior would be worth about 4 times what I would pay for a comparable condition Alamo Beige /gold interior car. People like the hot color combos and are willing to pay for them.

Thanks, I agree. I'm still looking for that right 65 GTO. What really gets me is the price of them now. I've had several muscle cars from the 60's, a few corvettes that I bought during the late 70's and early 80's. We all know what you could buy them for back then. I guess like everything else the price keeps going up.

Craig, I looked at the ebay car. (just now, on line). It is a nice solid old car, probably well worth the 26k, IMO. There are many things keeping its value relatively low: No documentation that it is an actual tripower car (it has the wrong unit on it..a '66 tripower), no documentation that it was born with a 4 speed (has the wrong shifter), it has no rally cluster, which is usually indicative of a base optioned car, but not always, and it is Mayfaire Maize, which I personally love on a boxy '65, but most folks don't. I would love to have the car, but I wonder what the PHS docs would say. My guess? 389, 4bbl, automatic, AC, and a 3.08 rear gear. Originally.

Man, I really like that car myself. I love Mayfair Maize with a black interior and non vinyl top. 421, trips and a 4spd. Should be a fun car. I actually wrote the seller to find out how it was 'born'.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/310818587199...7199&viewitem=