Hello! 1968 GTO Convertible Project
 

Hello,
New guy here with my first post. Hoping to find some expert advice about a project car that I'm looking at maybe buying. The owner has some PHS documents that shows that it came with a lot of options. He said it has the original 400 engine, but not sure what hp engine. Here's some of the paper work, the trim tag and vin that I was hoping some of you guys could decipher to tell what I might be getting into. And, if it would be worth bringing it back to life.
Thanks,
Bryan

http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...ps17fc6ce3.jpg
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...ps882b303b.jpg
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...psa68a2051.jpg
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7fb40680.jpg

Pics of the car. As you can see. It's going to need a lot of work. All the parts are supposed to be there.
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6e65a349.jpg
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...psc27f1760.jpg
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4df2bf61.jpg
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...ps06d8ccf1.jpg

Nice options there, though what condition is the body in? Especially rust wise?
If you take a look at http://www.oldride.com/library/1968_pontiac_gto.html you will find some good info there.

If you check on the front of the block there is a machined pad near the water pump. There you will find a stamped code begining with two letters such as YS then the last four or possibly five digits of the VIN. The first two letters will give you the info on the engine (check info on link above), and the letters will confirm if it is the original engine.

Hope that helps, i hope it works for you, it looks good from here.
Dave

Thanks Gtozy for the link. The option list calls for a rally stripe. Not quite sure what the stripe looks like on a GTO.
Also, are the 68 parts easy to acquire? I know first year models sometime have one-off parts, midyear production changes and so forth that causes problems locating the correct parts. Is there anything specific that I need to make sure is there?
Bryan

In your case the engine code would be a WT, 350hp/4spd. Solar Red over Red interior with the ivory convertible top!

That's one loaded up car! Was it recently in Connecticut?

68 parts are not that bad, they made a lot of 68 GTOs and a lot of parts are also interchangeable between 68-72 GM A-bodies.

Hard to tell from those pics but it looks pretty solid.

Red convert with a great list of options. Doesn't get too much better. Looks like it was built roughly two months before mine at the Arlington plant. Like others said, there's a lot of stuff being reproduced and most of the chassis parts are interchangeable with other GM a-bodies.

Locating parts depends on how original you want to make it. You start to limit your options when you go looking for specific part numbers and date codes. The trunk lid and front valance are '68-specific and can be tricky to find in good shape. 68 custom sport steering wheel also unique and the repro isn't exact. Some of the a/c controls/system is specific too although not that difficult to locate.

The rally stripe is an uncommon option. Here's some info: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=749954

Thanks guys for the comments. The current owner started a resto and the body work looks pretty decent. I didn't see any glaring rust on the fenders, quarters, cowl or windshield frame. There is evidence that the driver side floor pan has been replaced.
I'm scheduled to go back on Saturday to do an inventory of all the parts. He says they're all there. He just disassembled it to do the body work. He's keeping them at another property that has storage. He did tell me that the engine has already been rebuilt and still has the original carb, distributor, a/c compressor and all associated pulleys and brackets.
He's asking $8,000 for the car. Does that sound out of line? I plan on doing a lot of the work myself. I did a body off resto on a 68 corvette, so I'm familiar with what it takes to go through this process. I'm doing it because I like having something work on. I'm an original nut so I would try to keep the car as correct as possible.
The car that is currently in my garage is 1970 Camaro RS/Z28

Bryan

How can you tell what the engine code is?
Bryan

Check my first reply. Code is on the front of the block

That thing is loaded like crazy.

Here is how to document the engine :
It should be a WT block with #16 heads
Carb is #7028263
Single snorkel air cleaner with chrome lid

The Engine Unit Number and VIN on the block can double document it as original.

The Block is stamped below the passenger head with the EUN and the application code.
It should read
529028
WT
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1400828111



The VIN is stamped down lower next to timing cover.
It should read
28R161345
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1400828111




The heads will be cast #16
Located on the center exhaust ports
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1400828111




Your BHC also has the Transmission Unit Number listed.
FO6P8B13
It should be stamped along front leading edge of trans.
The edge where the trans meets the bellhousing.
Usually up on top edge where it wouldn't be visible when installed in car.

Basket case projects have really gone down in price (so many un finished projects out there due to cost to complete verses buying one already done or a driver)

Front Valance SS Trim and Park Light Lens used to be "almost" impossible to find, two of the hardest parts to find on a 68.....I think they make these aftermarket now though.....been some time for me on a 68 though.

sorry for the typo , ty Boss :)

Thanks guys. Good stuff.
So the 539028 that is on the build sheet tells that it is a WT code engine.

The link shows it's a 360hp.
WT 8-400 360 445 Manual 4 BC
What's the difference between a 360hp vs. a 350hp?
Thanks,
Bryan

The guy wants $8,000. Is that too out of line for this car? The motor is supposed to be done and most of the body work, although, I want really know until I start digging into it.
Thanks,
Bryan

I'd jump on it if I were you.

Back in the summer of '84 or '85, I was riding my bike on a street near my house. I saw a GTO tooling up the street toward me. It was a Solar Red '68 convertible with a red interior, Rally IIs, and hideaway headlights. Top down. The car was in immaculate condition and was absolutley stunning. There were two middle aged couples in the car. Once it passed, I never saw the car again. But it left a lasting impression on a budding GTO nut!

Looks like it could be a decent deal. Not too many 4 speed convertibles with ac. I've got one and paid about the same price.

That link must have had a typo like i did earlier.
WT is 350hp
WS (H-O) was 360hp

WT tells the application - GTO base 400cid / 350hp - Manual trans
The Engine Unit Number is a control number that serves a few purposes now and then. Its a real nice number to have data on. And most are clueless about it.

The VIN is more widely known about , and the main one that is likely to get restamped on a replacement donor WT to appear as original. The EUN is a second layer of defense in your favor - in certain scenarios.

That is not the build sheet you have.
It is the billing history / option content / with a few other things thrown in.

Build sheet - if lucky - will be found within the car.
A lot more specific data about components listed on them.

If you can handle the work , the engine is right #s matching - parts all accounted for - thats a real fair deal on a fine ass piece of Pontiac.

Its the 2nd most expensive 68 GTO i have in my files.
And only lost 1st by less than $20.

1968 WT was 360 HP.
(as the WS also)

The automatic was 350 HP.

:)

Thanks! What gives the stick the extra ponies?

If the frame and body are sound then it looks to me like the start of a nice car. But as mentioned don't underestimate the time and cost to put it all together and get it into good shape. No doubt it would be cheaper to buy one already restored.

Guessing here without looking at it first hand and seeing the parts that come with it- depending on how much of the work you do yourself I figure maybe 30K to make it nice, much more than that to get it into show condition with all the options or to put big power under the hood. So paying a few thousand less or more for the car now is not going to make much difference in the end.

Bringing a car back to life isn't about money, its a labor of love. If you are ready to take the plunge and put the time in, really want the car and honestly have the finances needed to do the restore then go ahead and buy it.

It's a typo John, 68 WT was 350 HP.

Just got it from the service manual?

I'll see if I can find any correction in the Craftsman Service News.

:)

Okay, I went to check out all the parts to the car. It looks like it is all there. Original red interior pieces in 46 year old condition. There was a new gas tank and sending unit in a box, some front inner fender wells, all the under hood a/c stuff etc...

I crawled under it to take a look at the frame. I didn't see any major rust holes. I did see where the frame looked like it had been prepped and painted. There is some pitting, but nothing major.
All the body mounts have been replaced with new rubber. The one thing that I was disappointed in was that both rear lower quarters showed filler work. That will have to go.

The next thing to do is go to look at the engine and transmission. It's over at a friend of his auto shop in the next town over. Just need to setup a time to do it.

I told the owner I don't mean to be a pain in the butt, I'm just trying to do due diligence here so I'll know what I have to work with.

Bryan

Even at 350hp, the motor appears to have a good of amount of torque compared to the original chevy LT1 motor in my Z28.

Don't worry about the HP rating.
Those 68 WT's are great engines with big valves, screw-in studs, and guideplates.
Same engine layout as the 69 and 70 WT rated with 350hp.
H-O had better manifolds and i think a tad lil more bump on the cam maybe.
But all else the same.

Might be worth while to ask if they lowered the compression ratio any, or used hardened seats. Forged pistons, bored oversize, etc
Cam Card or Cam Specs

In case you missed it in this other thread , here is what the transmission stampings will look like for reference.

The Trans Unit Number from your BHC and partial VIN

http://http://forums.maxperformancei...7&d=1400880042

Will do. Thanks for the advice.

More questions,can you tell from the billing sheet what rearend gear is supposed to be in the car?
The option list calls out a Safe-T-Track. Is the Safe-T-Track a posi-trac rear end? I counted 10 bolts.
Thanks,
Bryan

I believe it should be a 3:23. I read somewhere that 3:23's were used in AC cars.

10 bolt is right
Safe-T-Track is the Posi
37G is axle code = 3.23


71P / 71C = PC = G70 x 14 Redline Wide Oval Tires

Center caps would have been Black with Red PMD letters
Lug Nuts would have had Black centers
Wheel code by valve stem likely JC - or maybe JA

Custom sport st.wheel was simulated wood.
Custom shift knob was wooden with GTO crest.

Pwr Top and Pwr Ant switches would hang in dash just below dashpad poking through the top of dash bezel.

Not sure if there would have been an extra switch for rear speaker with the Stereo radio - but would have a rear speaker. Think stereo unit had a separate multi-plex or amp hidden up in dash on passenger side.
AM/FM dial switches up and down with far left and far right pushbuttons. Pushbuttons would be chrome on 68 Stereo iirc.

64 and 68 are not my strongest suites.

Well, I finally got over to where all the engine components were being kept. It looks to be all there. The mechanic said that the engine and transmission were pulled as one unit with all the components still hanging on it. He disassembled it when he took the motor and heads in for machine work. He told me it was balanced and blue printed. The cam is stock, bored 30 over with a compression drop to 9.0. Here are some of the pics that I snapped. I got a picture of the engine unit number and the code. It appears to be legit.
The intake, carb, distributor, ac compressor, transmission, bell housing, driveshaft, Hurst shifter with wooden knob, fan and clutch, air cleaner with chrome lid, fan with correct clutch, exhaust manifolds, vacuum hoses, buckets of bolts and nuts, ect........A big pile of parts with all the grease and grime! It should keep me busy fro quite awhile:D

http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...psb2f5fca4.jpg
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...ps96248a11.jpg
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...psa0e32a21.jpg
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...ps0c9fc4b1.jpg
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1e3032c8.jpg
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...ps44abf34b.jpg

Standard engine 4 speed cars got the 068 cam and log manifolds unless they had a/c then they got the 067 cam. Lots of expensive-to-replace original parts there! Buy it! Unfortunately I see the dreaded 4 valve relief pistons. Have the deck height checked before you button it up. There seems to be a consensus here they make 400s into pinging low power dogs. Since it hasn't been run maybe you can replace them with some true flat tops.

I'm picking it up next weekend. The car and the all the parts are stored in 3 different locations .

My thoughts too about the pistons. Get the compression back to where it should be. The mechanic told me that the motor had signs of detonation when he pulled it apart so he lowered the compression. I always thought with the proper cam and timing, the motor should run fine at a 10:1 compression when using 93 octane. My original motor 70 Z28 runs fine with it's 11:1 compression ratio.

Looks like most or all is there.
Wouldn't hurt to ask if there is also a 4th place with any pieces just to be positive.
Seems to be a great deal on the car. And a great car too.

agree about the pistons.
They're called 8 valve relief (8VR) most commonly.
Cheapest on the market, Cast - not Forged
and have a crazy chamfer around the perimeter at top.
Said to be potential for lots of issues.

I'd still go for under 9.5 CR
with some D shaped dishes on forged pistons with high quality rings.
i think they were just slinging a number with claimed 9.0

Congrats on the Hard Loaded Convertible :thumbup:

Thanks!
All the info that I have found shows that style piston to have less than 8:1 compression.
It looks like I'll be going through the engine to make sure everything is right. A new set of forged flat tops will call fro rebalancing the rotating assembly.
I'lll most likely install a set of forged ones like these made by Sealed Power. Unless somebody else has some other suggestions :2cents: I'm all ears.....
I should be able to fine tune the compression by using head gasket thickness.
http://www.rockauto.com/getimage/get...76-0&width=500

I have one of those Badger cast 8 valve relief pistons on my bench as a pencil holder :D

KB Icon forged pistons with a -14cc dish should get you around 9.5:1 presuming it's still running the original heads.

Heads are still original. Do you have a part number on the the Keith Black pistons?

It'll be something like Keith Black or Icon 891 with additional numbers depending on your bore size.

See Butler's list: http://www.butlerperformance.com/pro...s/pistons.html

They look like this:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1348962939

I had the TRWs in a previous build and had a real problem with detonation with #16 heads and 91 gas.

8VR pistons

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1403042585

The word for today - FORTITUDE. She's in my shop. What a pile! A lot of sorting and cleaning. The motor parts coming on Saturday.

http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...ps926582f4.jpg

http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...ps88ea3464.jpg

http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...pse81217f2.jpg

http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...psdc2eba56.jpg

http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...ps286a5924.jpg

http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5141bf8c.jpg

Congratulations - another one on it's way back from the dead!

Looks like a nice car.:)

Finally, all parts under one roof!:hooray::hooray::hooray:

http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...ps957446bb.jpg
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...psa3a64c7c.jpg
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...ps925b6b4e.jpg

Man that is going to be a monumental task, putting something back together that you didn't take apart. Get the GTO restoration guide, the 68 service manual and the 68 Fisher body service manual. Did they at least bag and tag all the bolts and small parts? Good luck, I hope you pull it off, 68's are awesome.

That should keep you busy for a few years. Reminds me why I like to do mine in phases instead of disassembling everything at once.

I see in the pics that you do indeed have a burgundy interior. The sources I gave you in the other thread should help get it close to original (that's what I would do). But changing it to something like black would be a lot easier, and probably cheaper in the end.

Hopefully you have had one of these cars apart before? The reference books mentioned would be a big help. Looks like most of it is there though.

Nothing bagged or tagged. That's the first step of my plan -sorting through parts, cleaning them up to see what's salvageable, ID'ing the part and properly storing them so they'll be ready to go back on when needed. Building an extensive 68 GTO Manual and literature library is at the top of my list.


Never messed with a Pontiac, but I have done a frame-off resto on a 68 corvette convertible that was in about the same shape. I usually don't have any issues with the mechanical process and I learn the rest.
The "Hunk of Junk" when I found it.
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6d399228.jpg
After - this took me about 4 years off and on.
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_..._large.jpg?v=0

It's a long term project. I just love the resurrection part of the process. I don't have a time limit, probably will only do the serious shop work during the fall and spring - take the summer off -too hot!!! And, when I feel the need for speed - Here' how I feed the beast- 70RS/Z28 Original motor and drive train with 4.10 posi.
http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/...pse1f44b3b.jpg


As I understand it, the guy I bought it from bought the GTO in 2003. I think he bought from the second owner who parked it in his drive way and covered it up for who knows how long. So, he's been trying to restore for awhile. Hopefully I can be Dr. Frankenstein and get to shout -:jumping:Look! It's moving. It's alive. It's alive... It's alive, it's moving, it's alive, it's alive, it's alive, it's alive, IT'S ALIVE!!!!!!!:jumping:

I just hope you guys don't get tired of me asking questions:D

Nice work on the 'Vette, and both are beautiful cars. Glad to hear that you understand what you are getting into. Some really enjoy the journey and some just want to get it done and drive.

Lots of experience on the board here, so just ask away!

Here is mostly what it looked like when it was new.
Except i don't think this one had anywhere near as many options as yours .
Did yours have the lower Rally Stripe option #494 ?

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1403582002

Baron,
That's beautiful!.. I'm going to take that pic, blow it up and hang it in the man cave to help me keep my eye on the prize.
Yes, the window sticker calls for Rally Stripe. I guess that's coded on the billing history too. I'm not sure.

My car came in the exact same pile of parts as yours. It is a challenge sorting through everything, but it is possible. Mine should even be on the road this year.