70 Judge Body Graft. To do or not to do?
 

Ok, so I have the opportunity to save a 1970 PHS documented GTO Judge RA3, Auto, non A/C, low optioned Polar White. It is rusted thru (literally) from the fire wall back,only the deck lid is repairable.

My questions are:
1. Is it feasable to unpick a donor car from the firewall back and graft onto this one?
2. Is that morally or ethically right?
3. Is it actually worth all that to save one Judge?

I know here will be a variety of answers, but maybe there will be a consensus.

Interested to hear the varying opinions on this topic!

Call me analytical....but if you cant use a significant percentage of the original car, then it's just a number swap. I'll say 35% for the sake of argument

I'll go with saving 51% of the original car, makes it ethical

Must include roof , main body shell and FRAME. I know a lot of people swap frames but you asked my opinion. The VIN is on the body shell and the frame. You have to draw the line some place.

Take the tags off of it and keep them as a momento and cut the car up. Reusing the trunk lid and tags on another car and calling it a Judge is wrong.

Wow, tough question.

To me it's all about the spirit of the builder ... doing it for a profit ... F you, it's a replica ... if the builder cares about the car and wants to resurrect a great old car, good on you, have at it.

At what point is a body/VIN tag just a piece of metal and not a car ... I don't know.

There are people on this forum, that if they built that car, I would consider it as a resurrection, there are many others in the "business" that I would consider profiteers if they did the same thing.

I probably should have said that if it were to be done, I would be keeping the original roof intact and removing the body at the lower section of the B PIllar.

Hard to say... consider this:
If you replaced the floor pans- complete- is it still the same car?
What if you had to replace one of the quarters- still the same car?
Oh no, the other quarter has rust too! Same car?
The rear bumper needs to be rechromed- yours is used as a core, so it's gone...
You want to fix the holes in the firewall.. same car?
At this point, you've done what you're proposing... I guess it depends on how it was done- if you slice the donor 'sheet metal' at the B pillar and upper firewall, then make the same cuts on the Judge, then weld it together, it's getting really close to doing a re-body.
Yet those same panels, done one at a time, constitute a restoration.

I know of a situation 40 years ago where the remains of a very rusty and many times wrecked Shelby GT350H were cut up and thrown in a dumpster. Parted out and scrapped. The data plate and title were sold to a gentlemen in Tennessee as was often done back in the day. As you might expect, the car now exists.. New owner contacted the guy who cut it up and wasn't very happy learning that history. I was told this seems to be fine with the auction company and registry of a for-profit "club". So seems to be acceptable practice in the industry.

I don't get this thread but am probably missing something. I don't think OP clarified his goals nor intentions.

To me, it's not about what is done to the car it's about how it's represented after.

But maybe it's like JC455 said - what's the line between a restoration and a "recreation"? I doubt there's an answer to that one but when would this distinction matter? Sale or trade is obvious, but maybe also for insurance? Are there other scenarios where a car needs a dollar value assigned to it?

Anyone watch Graveyard Cars? Some of their cars are very close to having all their sheet metal including floors, roof and frame rails replaced. Most everyone thinks it's a great job. I think it is no longer the original "rare" car.

Sorry,I thought my three questions were pretty clear. Essentially looking to see how we as a community feel about this kind of work. And if it is worth going to this much trouble to save a Judge. I have the opportunity to do this to a 70 Judge using a 70 Le Mans Sport (no engine or panels from firewall forward) as a donor. At this stage I dont think it is right to do, but i'm very interested to see peoples views.

I think JC455 has it in a nutshell, in saying how does this "Graft" differ from replacing the interior floor, trunk floor and quarters?

I was also looking to see if anyone has actually done this, and just how much work it was.

I just help a friend with a plain GTO and mostly me he helped a little but we replaced the quarters, roof skin, floors, trunk floor, patched the dash (the part with the vin was out of the car),patched the package tray, new wheel houses inner and outer. I call this a restoring a GTO and it might not be wise but they don't make 70 GTO anymore. Last week I went to auction and a 62 corvette half made into a drag car no motor or tranny sold for 28000 but they don't make 62 corvette anymore.

I dont think it should be called an original car if that much has been replaced. There was a published article not too long ago about just this thing. The car was a rare charger, that had just about every piece of sheet metal changed. It was a nice car when finished but personally to me it was akin to a kit car. Not the car that rolled off the line.

Just looking for context. It's a pretty philosophical topic.

I didn't intend criticism, just didn't understand if you were doing this for yourself or if you planned to sell it? Either way, saving money on the restoration by using a LeMans shell is just saving money to me.

My only "ethics" thought was if you ever sold it as a Judge, I would have no issue at all if you were open about the scope of the restoration. The buyer can decide what it's worth to him if you are open about the process. I can't imagine going through all that work and end up NOT being proud of the accomplishment. The work you people put into these cars is astonishing. Most of these cars look way better than I remember any car looking when the were "young".

To me, the rusted remains of a Judge is a Judge. How much original sheet metal and parts is always a variable on any restoration in my mind.

Why do you say "..I don't think it's right to do"? Do you view it as putting a Judge tag on a LeMans? To me, you propose using parts from a LeMans to restore a Judge. You could just as easily use parts from the Judge to restore the LeMans. Either way, the "right or wrong" part of it in my mind should only come up when you are done and describe what parts are not original to the car.

I'd rather have a re-body than a car that was put together like a puzzle.

To me it's not a big deal.

This things come up a lot.Moving a vin from one car to another(re body) I believe is not legal in many if not all states.Moving a complete firewall with the vin tag intact might not be legit but as im told by many restorers is legal.Then you have to deal with a frame if it is a full frame car with its hidden vin.Tom

I’d bet more than one “original paint, all original survivor” started out like this.

Just buy a decent "regular" GTO and save all the headaches IMO. Not all Judges should be saved....again JMO.

I guess whatever legally gets you a whole car that you enjoy is what's important. Then it doesn't matter what the pedigree might be. You would know every stitch and spot weld, but probably wouldn't care.

With that said, you could keep "LemanFrankenJudge" until you pass, and then your heirs might sell it for what they think it is - a Judge. Or you sell the car before that with full disclosure and honesty, but that guy flips it without disclosure. Would that be your fault? No. Your hands are clean.

I see no problem in using 2 partials to make one whole. But then again, I don't play in the collector world where rarity and provenance matter. As long as YOU (the OP) play it straight, I don't care. The guys who trade around the pedigree cars are mostly into it for the money anyways, and those guys typically win more than they lose. I'm sure along the way they think it's neat to have a rare car, but mostly it means $$$ and future profit.

Knock yourself out, dude.

When I ponder this scenario and read some of the responses, I see the terms "legal", "ethical" and "original" thrown about, often with much conviction, but really what I am reading is a lot of "opinion".

Here is my opinion:

The "legal" part is the most important, as you don't want to do something that gets you into trouble.

The "ethical" part, in my mind, is solely related to what the goal is...if the intent is to rebuild a car so it gets saved and put back on the road, as long as it isn't passed off as "original", then I see no issues with using 2 cars to build one. And who cares if it isn't original, unless you try to say it is...I'm actually alot more impressed when I meet someone that put the time and effort into rebuilding a car that was a real challenge than I am seeing an original car that sat unused in a garage for 40 years. (No offense to anyone with an original car!!)

I would also much rather have a rust bucket saved by changing major sub-assemblies compared to panel by panel...the end result is going to be much better, less "problems" with fitting parts, and less expense/time to get the job done. This is exactly why they sell complete floor assemblies with trunk pan and rockers & braces.

Something else that hasn't been mentioned, is how location and finances makes a difference in how each of us gets to play in this hobby. The OP seems to be from Australia, and if so, I can only imagine how difficult and expensive it is to get parts there...this would greatly impact the decision for me on how to go about doing a restoration.

As for whether or not it will still be a Judge if the car gets fixed with "splicing" in some good panels, that's a great question.

Take a look at my situation. I bought a 1970 Judge that had a rotten frame, wrong motor ('77 400), wrong tranny (Saginaw), wrong rear end (3.08 gears), no interior, ram air system missing (I do have the original bracket for the dash!! :)), spoiler missing, wrong year doors ('71-72) :(

I've replaced the trunk, floors, cowl panels, part of the roof, one full quarter, one quarter patch, 2 repro fenders + hood + trunk lid + used 1971 doors. Repro ram air system as well. I used repro parts because I could not afford OEM and the shipping to get them to me would have been a killer. Also, the only good frame I could find within a 10 hour drive was from a '69 so that's whats under my car now.

Is my car original? Hell no, not even close. Is it still a Judge? You tell me!

While I did buy a real Judge, what I really bought was a dream, that in many respects has been a total nightmare.

I would have loved to be in your shoes 25 years ago when I bought this thing!!!

Where would we turn for a legal opinion? State law? Federal law? Precedent? Mrennie, no offense but your car doesn't remotely resemble what came off the Pontiac assembly line.

No offense taken, because you are right, my car is far from original and I tell that to anyone that sees it.

Anyone looking close at my car would see pretty quickly that I do not have a stock drivetrain, which I purposely did because I could never make it numbers matching again, and I really didn't want it the way it was ordered anyway (3 speed Muncie with pegleg rear :eek:). But is it still a Judge? Personally, I don't think it is a clone or tribute...I mean, it's obviously a GTO, and it started out as a real Judge and when it is done it will still have all the special Judge bits like ram air system and spoiler/graphics, but rebuilt with alot of repro panels and aftermarket parts. Am I still allowed to call it a Judge? Not asking to be a smartass, just curious what others think.

If the Judge the OP is looking at had a number's matching drivetrain (not sure if it does, but say it did), and he replaces the rotten sections he is talking about, I would tend to think once finished that his car is closer to original than mine! :)

Regarding what is legal, I believe the jurisdiction of the OP is the one that could offer some guidance. Here in Ontario, at least into the 90's, it was perfectly legal to build any vehicle you wanted using donor parts or shells, and as long as you filed an affidavit explaining what you did to build the final vehcile, the ownership was created with whatever VIN was ultimately on the finished car or truck. (I know this first hand as I built my first 1/2 ton with the cab of one truck and the box and frame from the other, and I had no ownership for either, just bills of sale for the parts.)

This is a good discussion, but in another 20 years it likely won't matter because everyone will be riding autonomous vehicles and we probably won't be allowed to drive our cars on public streets anymore anyways. :(

Interesting discussion!

Weird thing about this thread for me is number of posts that seem to assume calling a car by it's model name is the same as calling it original. Aren't they two different things?

OP never said he intended to misrepresent the originality of his car. I cannot imagine that's his intent.

Mrennie has a signature line describing his Judge as a "basket case" and everything "non-original" about it. I still think it's a Judge. No, it's not "original" but how is it NOT a Judge? If not a Judge, does it get a different name?

Where did replacing a body on a rusty shell turn into calling the end product original?

Also struggling to understand another train of thought. If 60% (however that proportion is measured ???) of a car (let's say engine, transmission, rear axle, suspension, upholstery, steering wheel, whatever..) is Chevy but the car started life as a Pontiac, has a Pontiac body, is titled as a Pontiac, has a Pontiac VIN, kept all the badges, how is it wrong to call it a Pontiac? Is the argument it should be called a Chevy with a Pontiac body?

Maybe this whole thread is really about the legal side of it? Like whether a car gets a regular or a salvage title? Is that what I'm missing? That seems a whole different discussion that would end with which state has the vaguest laws/policies/rules and therefore the best place to register a non-original car?

Is there a sentiment that if I replace all the sheet metal on my titled car, I should walk into the DMV and apply for a salvage title?

OK, back to everyone else's less sarcastic opinions...

"If 60% (however that proportion is measured ???) of a car (let's say engine, transmission, rear axle, suspension, upholstery, steering wheel, whatever..) is Chevy but the car started life as a Pontiac, has a Pontiac body, is titled as a Pontiac, has a Pontiac VIN, kept all the badges, how is it wrong to call it a Pontiac? Is the argument it should be called a Chevy with a Pontiac body?"

Actually that would be called a Beaumont or Pontiac Parisienne! Sorry, couldn't resist but my Canadian friends will get it! :D

Do what ever you want with the car and enjoy it. My opinion if you are honest when selling a rebuilt car could be better than one with poor craftsmanship on the body that will show in a few years....
1970 Lemans Sport convertible. Will be nice but not close to stock or original steel. would have to look close to tell, and should not have any issues in the future. So many numbers matching cars are just a lot of money spent on parts and engines etc that have been restamped and would have been better off to just be honest on what it is. A Judge is more of a pedigree so that is why I did not care with a Lemans. Sad but someone will likely pay more for a poor Judge than a nice Lemans but that is why the hobby has different opinions and none are wrong.

Paul

This is a cool thread. Here'e what mine will look like when it done (if its ever done)

ORIGINAL AS BORN PARTS
Frame (vin match)
Body tub incl cowl, roof, quarters rockers and floors
Doors
Pass fender
Inner fenders
Radiator support
Hood
Trunk lid
Rear bumper

OEM PARTS OFF ANOTHER CAR
Driver fender
Endura
Valance
400 complete
Muncie M20
Got a few rear end's to choose from
69 style front disk brake conversion

New aftermarket parts
Alum radiator
Windshield
Interior kit

That's a great way to describe what's original and what's not on your project!

LOL, Beaumont was the first thing that came to mind for me too when Shiny posted that! :)

If we're braking down our cars like this, Here's mine. LOL!
Originally a 1971 Formula 400 4spd Lucern Blue, Std blue interior

ORIGINAL AS BORN PARTS

Sides of firewall
Inner kick panels
Top of dash
top half of inner wheel houses
Package Shelf
inner door shells
inner roof structure and a pillers

Thats about it!

NOS PARTS

Fiberglass Tail Panel
Door Skins
Rear Window Moldings
All weatherstrip
all spoilers

OEM PARTS OFF ANOTHER CAR

Pass fender
Driver fender

NEW AFTERMARKET PARTS

EVERYTHING ELSE!

I'm saving a carcass nobody else wanted.
Is it cheap to do? NO
Is it easy to do? NO
Do I enjoy a challenge? HELL YA
Am I doing it for approval of someone else? HELL NO

Will the Originalists approve of my build? I DOUBT IT
What will I have when done? A car I built as a hobby.
Will I sell it? probably not
Will I disclose what has been done? PROUDLY WHILE BRAGGING A LITTLE!!!!

A link for anyone who wants to see more... you will have to join to see the pics
https://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56230

STAN

and a few more pics

Well...i say yes to all 3 if you want to take the time and money involved.
Get a salvage title.
A few guys around here buy totaled newer model trucks, get a salvage title(its stated right on it) from the State, and repair them with new and used parts.

About 20 years ago I bought a real nice older salvage titled 3/4 ton Chevy panel van for camping, fishing, and hunting.
Used front end and doors from one. Custom captain seats, console, rear folding bench to bed out of another.
Also 8" wide Corvette steel rally wheels.
Shouldn't of sold it once the kids where grown up. Best dependable vehicle over a 15 year period. Nothing but regular maintaince.

Why get a salvage title an insurance company did not payout and determine it as unsafe to drive? It is a total restoration and the case most restorations cost more than 70% the value of the car??? This should not be compared to a crashed insurance repair job, as it has nothing in common with that. Most states do not even put the mileage on the titles of classic cars? Should a car with an aftermarket frame have a salvage title? Barrett Jackson would be mostly salvage vehicles? It is a hobby no matter what you do with the car either factory stock, or heavily modified. The worst is when someone tells you it can not be done, it is more of a dare. I consider it my GOLF but at least I have a chance of getting some of my greens fees back some day.

Awesome job man, that's some serious resurrection!

As far as people rebodying cars, I was told by a Michigan State Police officer that it is illegal to remove and swap VIN plates. You are not even supposed to remove them for a restoration according to Michigan law. I had a chance to buy a fairly clean Can Am years ago when I had mine but the guy took everything off of the car that made it a Can Am including VIN. The officer told me to not even look at it because after I bought it the owner could say I stole it and removed the VIN. I am not sure how people get away with rebodying cars and swapping VINs from a GTO to a clean Lemans and making a new GTO.

Must have been all those subliminal messages I'm bombarded with from BC...

I did kind of toss one up!

And I'm aligned with "LOL"...

Exactly..

Otherwise I personally would be serving a 10 year sentence in financial stupidity prison.

Ding ding.....we have a winner. I'm sure most go unnoticed by law enforcement

Ok forget salvage title.
As long as he has the title, don't think it would be an issue unless it was sold as original.

Bought a 68FB out of state 15 yrs ago. The 25yr old officer that came to check VIN didnt know what it was even though it had PONTIAC and firebird emblems.

Besides a GTO is a Lemans with different options :rolleyes:

Seems like reconstructing cars from the firewall back are ok with the Chevy, Ford and Mopar guys, so why should it different with us. If the law says moving a vin PLATE is illegal, it is. A repair to a vehicle is a repair, the originality is gone but it is still the vehicle. Grey areas exist where someone interprets it as I can cut 2" around the sheet metal and swap another shell under it. They technically did not remove the vin PLATE.

My opinion which is worth nothing legally, is the main structure where the the vin plate is attached to is not being altered so the vin would be legit. Your car is not original, its repaired. It is still a judge (which is tied to the vin) with a non-original drive train.

I remember a few times seeing building getting knocked down but they left the front wall and entrance. Put up a new building around it, then changed out the entrance area. I'm sure that was for some type of loophole.

I’m not a player in the collector market but don’t the buyers of these cars look for the “hidden” numbers on a possible purchase?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not meaning to hijack, but that has something to do with municipal building codes. If you knock down a complete building, the new building will be 'new construction', which may not be allowed because of code changes. If you knock down 3/4 (or 9/10) of a building its is a renovation allowing the building to be retained regardless of code changes (grandfathering).

So, if 10% of the body needs replacing, it can be called a restoration. But if 90% of the body needs replacing, can it be still called a restoration, or a rebadging? At what % would be the demarcation?

If you want to do the work and replace floor pans and quarters then you have earned the right to put a Judge sticker on it in my opinion, another car saved

Thanks guys, I reckon the prevailing theme here is that it is ok to do, just as long as it is disclosed if and when sold, just as you would if you replaced any other Sheetmetal part. For now, I’m still going to give this one a miss, though if I had the space for two cars to sit for a while, I would buy them to keep for ‘later’, I would really enjoy the challenge of a job like this.