Return Of The Tick
 

OK. So, as much as it pains me to write these words, the Tick is back.

Now, for those who haven't watched every episode in this whole sad sordid tale you may need some catching up. Goes a little like this:

Car loses oil pressure. Man rebuilds engine. Engine has "tick". Man hunts endlessly for source of noise. Noise eludes all capture. Man replaces cam and lifters. Man eventually replaces valve springs. Valve springs revealed as source of noise! New valve spring/retainer setup causes rockers to hit retainers. Engine drops valve but not before wiping out two cam lobes. Man buys new heads and sleeves block and sources piston. Man reinstalls engine with new heads, new cam, new lifters. The Tick returns!

So.. Naturally I was concerned lest it be my old friend the cam lobes going flat. I did pull out the cardboard shields to film the pushrods. They all spin. None spin quickly but there are no real standouts. When I had the bad lobes I had two very slow turners and the rest spinning quickly. Here all are spinning slowly. Not sure what to make of that but I'm assuming I'm not immediately worried about cam lobes..?

Passenger side:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFMdIGRUaGY

Driver side:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WPqkjN_DaE

Valve covers on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP2ShXmXC7c

Now, I am remembering that when I first was hunting the Tick I was hunting a harmless thing. That first cam had no bad lobes. Those first lifters were fine. The noise was from one of the springs. Probably the spiral damper spring inside.

The Tick Mark II has a few interesting properties. It was strongest early on just after I got it running. It seemed to quieten quite a bit at spirited driving. It seems a lot less at higher RPMs. But it was actually a bit more after a 15 minute drive.

The Tick Mark II is not affected by tightening up exhaust connections. It is not to do with accessories because it is as loud with no belts on. The Tick Mark II did not change after taking out and re-installing the spark plugs. It is seemingly loudest at the front of the car (through the grill opening). You can hear it from the valley pan louder than the sides or the valve covers.

I am rather annoyed by The Tick Mark II but my main concern, of course, is whether it indicates a real issue.

Of the bottom end I am sure of the following:
Mains torqued and double-checked. Rods torqued and double-checked. Oil pump torqued and double-checked. Factory windage tray secure and not cracked. Lifters were all free in their bores. Fuel pump eccentric properly in place and cam bolt torqued.

It's quite similar to the old tick. I guess it could be a spring again but that seems weird. It's not, I gather, a common source for noise. Also, they are the stock Edelbrock springs for flat tappet cam and I'm guessing that given how many heads they sell if this were a common thing it would be known.

Happy for any ideas.

For now, the car is running well. Engine is smooth. I had to kill off almost all the vacuum advance to keep part throttle from pinging. Had to take it down to 7 (vacuum can adds 7 degrees) to stop part throttle ping and then to 5 (vacuum can adds 5 degrees) to stop lift-throttle ping. These are the Edelbrock CNC fast burn heads so I expected it to want less advance but this seems more sensitive than expected. But it runs well and pulls strongly.

Thanks for any ideas or suggestions.

Sam

You are probably overthinking it.

Turn up the radio or get some exhaust cutouts and the tick will go away. If not, the problem spot will identify itself and you can tear things apart fixing what you know to be the problem instead of tearing things apart chasing a ghost.

Could only get 1 video to work, but on the video of the passenger side it didn't sound so bad through my crappy iPad speakers....then again I only run solid lifters.

An exhaust leak will also sound like a tick, have you looked into that yet?

I have read about all your issues you have had in the past...congrats on getting it back together and running again!

Chased a noise like that once and it turned out to be fuel pump generating the noise....

Yeah, sorry. They weren't all public. Now they are.

Sam

In the third vid, I can't hear the tick when you rev it. Is it audible when you raise and hold the rpm?

For starters you have Harland Sharp rockers. They are generally known to make a little valve train noise. Even brand new Harlands have a bit of fulcrum play in them, they can, and will make noise. They tend to make a bit of sewing machine noise, sometimes ticking if they have some miles on them.
Nothing wrong with that, they never pose a problem and will run for years like that. Thicker oil might quiet them down a little bit but not worth changing from what I'm hearing. Depending on the cam used, if it has a fast closing ramp you might also just be hearing the valves hitting the seats, which is normal with a cam lobe like that. It's not a big deal.

If you want whisper quiet rockers you'll need to invest in the Crowers.


Listening to your video there is nothing there that I would be concerned about at all. By the time the covers are on, the hood is shut, and you're inside the car I doubt I could even hear that myself. I'd run with it, change the oil a couple times and cut the filters open for a peek if it makes you feel better.

Rockers contacting valve covers?

Exhaust leak (as already mentioned)?

Bad spark plug wire, arcing to ground? You can connect a ground-wire to a sharp ice-pick, and pierce through the terminal boot of each plug wire at the distributor to determine if this is the problem - the tick will stop when you ground the appropriate wire.

I suspect a tiny exhaust leak, they can be difficult to detect and produce a tick that is difficult to locate.

If the rockers or a rocker is hitting a valve cover it will leave witness marks, but it is common for roller rockers to contact the intake side of the covers and we've had to remove material from than area on some types for clearance.

If you're engine doesn't like vacuum advance at light part throttle the cam isn't big enough, or on a tight LSA with advanced/early intake closing.

I've also found engines that don't like much timing from the vacuum unit are also not wanting or liking a lot of total mechanical timing and a quick advance curve........Cliff

Try a 50 weight oil. If it is internal, it should at least quiet a little. If it is an exhaust leak, it will be the same.

You could add a qt of Lucas oil treatment and see if the sound changes. Let you know to keep looking in the engine or other things like exhaust.
I feel for ya. You been through a lot with that engine. Others might have thrown a LS in there.
Be a die hard. We are cooler.

Wash your mouth!

:)

Sam

I assume you have tried adjusting the valves to see if the noise gets any quieter.

Use the stethoscope 3/4" heater hose method to try and pin down where the noise is.

So what cam is in it?
Rocker ratio?
Compression ratio?

Voodoo 703 (already had one)
1.5
10.5:1 Edelbrock 87cc on 455 +.030

I know the cam is small for the compression. It’s what I had

Sam

You may have seen this Sam.
455 dyno with Voodoo 703, stock cast iron dports using 9.2 compression, RA exhaust manifolds with 2 1/4" outlets. Worth reading Paul's post there.
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=776169

For a shelf cam pick hyd flat I'd might have gone with a 704 personally.

Too bad Ken isn't here, he was awesome. Here is a 455 using stock KRE dports and a smallish 231 @ .050 hydraulic roller.
Gary H ran a Voodoo 702 in a 9.6 compression cast iron head 455.

Videos don't correctly convey the sound. Been there done that here. You can't hear it the same over a recording. Impossible to troubleshoot from a recording of a tick.

Had this same sort of thing and it was the brand new set of lifters with my Voodoo cam. Tossed the junk lifters from Lunati and the cam, now my engine is quiet.

Looking back, the only hint I had during assembly was that the Lunati lifters compressed really easy as compared to the ones that came with the Edelbrock cam.

Bad parts out there. Lots of them. You have to try and guess which part was bad.

The biggest mistake you can make is to ignore the sound. Don't take that advice, it's bad. It would be like putting tape over a warning light.

I want to add that I'm not totally sure it was the lifters, it could have actually been the cam itself, the Voodoo '703. I got rid of the cam and lifters and the tick went away.

Sam is using Howard's lifters.

Crank it up cold, and try to use your hand to "feel" the noise. Could be valve cover/ rocker noise, Distributor, fuel pump, etc. When you had the exhaust manifolds off, were there any signs of a leak at the gaskets/heads?

If it ticks after cam break in, and it's not something easy to find, in my opinion, it's time for another cam. New cam and new lifters.

That's throwing money at something that isn't necessary.

Now that he's provided more details we know it's not the cam doing it. The voodoos have a very slow closing rate on their lobe profiles, so it's not slamming the valves shut.

The lifters are howards which are known to be good quality. Being able to push them down when the engine isn't running tells us nothing because there is no oil pressure to pump them up. Many hydraulic lifters do this and isn't anything abnormal.

As I mentioned, Harland sharps are notoriously noisy to some degree and can produce a slight sewing machine sound, which is really all that I heard in those videos. A small amount of valvetrain noise is not unusual in a performance engine, especially with full roller rockers. If you want quiet rockers, you'll have to invest in Crowers, or put a stamped steel on there. I did not hear any loud tick or bang or knock that would be any cause for concern. It's a performance engine, not a Cadillac.

GLH, I would be more concerned at this point dialing in your tune, getting the timing where it's happy, and good drivability.

Nope. Wrong. They are not supposed to tick. Bad advice. No sense in tuning.

If I would have followed your advice with my 'tick', tuning, I would be rebuilding about now instead of enjoying my ride.

How many times have you messed people up here tuning a problem?

All it takes for a tick is a bad cam break in. Happens often. Then you start over. The difference between a good break in and a bad one is a tick.

h/s full roller lifters do make some sewing machine noise as mentioned above, that's been a known issue with them for decades & most consider it "normal"... i have a set of 1.5's on my 467 alum head stroker & they make a little sewing machine noise too, not as bad as in the vids but they do indeed make noise. have heard the noise on chevys & fords too with h/s rockers.

easy way to eliminate that possibility is to swap in a pair of stock stamped steel rockers real quick & see if anything changes.

Says the guy that sets timing by ear, can't degree a cam properly, thinks carb tuning is setting mixture screws and shutting the hood, and throws parts at a problem until he finally gets lucky because he can't diagnose properly?? :rolleyes:

So we are supposed to take advice from you?

^^^^ There ya go. Correct, it's not a Pontiac thing, it's just the nature of those rockers.

I think you're hearing more in the video for a couple reasons. One is he has the valve covers off. Two, I find the cameras mic tends to pick up those noises and exaggerate them to some degree, and three, they sound completely different through a computer speaker than they do in person.

Thick aluminum valve covers that some people run will also dampen valve train noise, unlike thin stamped steel valve covers. The noise I'm hearing in the video sounds more like sewing machine as in a constant rhythmic sound from the valve train that poses no real cause for alarm. It's not a single knock from any one component that might raise concern. May be an exhaust leak in there but hard to discern. I'd like to hear a video with covers on, hood shut, and standing in front of the car.

Gents, it's not the HS rocker noise. I've had these Harland Sharps for like fifteen years. I also cured a previous tick problem which was spring related. This is a single tick at cam speed. It's either one lifter, one spring, one pushrod or one something. Gotta admit, I"m a little nervous on the cam front. Also, a little disappointed in how difficult it is to get more than a few degrees of vac advance. I knew it was on the small side so I am sorta leaning towards the cam and lifters route..

If it were your 455HO +.030 with 87cc CNC chamber Edelbrock heads not much stall what HR cam would you put in it? Bonus points for anyone with actual experience..

Sam

You are like I am, can tell a continuous sewing machine sound from a tick that's out of place. Some here think we are clueless. Most car folks know more than they get credit for here.

I just did this with my 400 with round port Edelbrock heads. Fresh experience.

I went with a smooth idle cam after the bad 703 and I'm loving it. Tons of power. Easy to tune. I have a lot of compression. It's all good. I don't take my car to the track so why would I build it like I do? I drive it only on the street. I don't need any 'rump rump rump'. I need smooth HP whenever I want it. I still have more power than I need for a street car. Can't even use all the HP I have now without slicks.

yes videos & computer speakers aren't a good way to diagnose engine sounds. i really only watched the 3rd vid with the covers on, there is a definite tick going on there, hope the OP can track it down without too much time/effort. my 1st reply was just a suggestion to eliminate the rockers as possible source of the tick, but if hes had them for 15 years they are most likely not the cause.

& to the "nope. wrong." guy, yes h/s rockers tick, thats a well known fact that anyone thats used them before knows. & no, you dont just install a new cam/lifters if you have a tick, as mentioned many times above, there are many things that could be causing it & most members here are just trying to help him track it down. yes a tick can be from a bad break in or wiped lifters/lobes... but you dont just throw parts at it & replace the cam without at least trying to track down the source of the tick first!

another suggestion to determine if its a bad lifter/lobe is to readjust all the rockers again & see if the noise goes away, if its cam/lifter related the noise will come back very soon. i was able to adjust away a tick on an older FT cam 455 i had with a wiped lobe/lifter, it came back within a day or 2 which identified the problem before pulling the cam/lifters.

It is well known that those with lesser knowledge overestimate their competence (Dunning–Kruger).

I've seen many engines with mild tick sounds do fine, no "issues" over many years. Also seen many times a tiny a exhaust leak making that sound.

If you want a great custom cam from a real master. His lobes and ramps are unique and have great balance, also uses the best cores available.
http://jonescams.com/street-performance/

Just went through this. Exactly the same. Fixed it going directly against what was advised here by the same characters.
The only person who gave me any good advice was Clay.

Just went for another test beat and my car runs so freakin' good with the Edelbrock 2157 that I can't imagine why anyone would cut it down. All I can say is the rest of their build must have been weak, something wrong.
If you want a crazy fast street car then that's all you need. If you want some sort of bragging rights because you have a huge cam then that's your deal, not mine. I just want a super fast street car and that's what I have. Sooo much power and fun.

Hey, everyone is different, being happy is the key.
I don't judge by how a street car spins from a start in first, I like mid-range and top end. Began to be impressed at 500 HP.

One local here is very used to huge power on the street. He bolted on a supercharger and was making north of 800 HP, it scared the crap out of him and he proclaimed too much.

ummm, ok...

my post is about h/s rockers having a sewing machine tick that you seemed to disagree with, & a couple simple suggestions for the OP's tick issue. not sure how the rest of your ramblings about "same characters" & how good your car runs relate to this thread. :confused:

Same cam. Same issue. Same advise.

Sam asked for advice from someone with the same experience. Boom.
I’m advising a new cam and lifters.
Many here said the 2157 cam was too small.
I think Sam should get a cam that fits what he uses the car for, period.

If you have ruled out exhaust and vacuum leaks, the old trick for finding a bad lifter/rocker arm was to use stethoscope to isolate the noisy component. You can even use a piece of 3/8" hardwood dowel held against the side of the rocker and up to your ear (not in it lol) to hear the noise (we used to do this as kids). If all the rockers sound the same, it's a characteristic of the rocker. You can pour a little STP onto the fulcrum and roller tip of the rocker and see if it quiets down, momentarily.

If you locate a tick specific to one cylinder, you can swap the rocker out with one from another cylinder and see if the noise follows the rocker (bad rocker) or stays put (bad lifter or cam lobe). You can also pour some STP as above and see it the rocker quiets down. If the noise stays on the same cylinder after the rocker swap or continues after pouring some STP on the rocker, put in a new lifter (do not swap lifters). If the tick continues, it's the cam lobe.

FWIW, a loose valve guide can also make a ticking noise. Once you isolate the valve with the tick remove the rocker arm and see if you can see/feel any play between the valve and guide by pushing against it with your hand while the valve is closed.

In 1977 when GM had all the troubles with valve guides in the SBC engines this is how we would find loose guides. The first example was a 17,000 mile 305 with 3 guides loose and a flat cam. It doesn't take a ton of miles for guides to get loose under the right conditions.

You would have sworn the valves needed adjustment, but there was zero improvement after running the valves. The bad cam and loose valve guides is what we found that cured the ticking. The customer wasn't impressed with GMs attitude that it couldn't be their product that was at fault, but it was, and it was the beginning of the bad guide, flat cam debacle that was around for 10 years or so. Around 1988 they finally figured out what was causing their problems and fixed them.

boom??? you quoted my post about h/s rockers having a sewing machine ticking noise & replied with comments about how fast your car is or bragging rights for big cams that have nothing to do with my post. you also quoted formulajones & said "nope. wrong." when he mentioned h/s rockers can have a tick noise & suggested to not just throw parts at it.

the advice of a new cam & lifter to better match his engine is fine, although it sounds like hes content with what he has for the time being, but suggesting to just install a new cam to fix his tick without continuing to diagnos what is causing it is pointless. what if its an exhaust leak, or any of the other possibilities mentioned that can cause a very mild tick? apparently you are able to determine what his issue is because you think you had the same issue with your engine.

offer up any advice you want, but dont quote & argue with others that are stating facts about h/s rockers or making simple suggestions to actually identify the problem.

:focus:

He's content with it? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? Where did you read that?

Sewing machines don't tick.

I'm sure he's like me in the regard that he's not going to run with bad lifters. That would be idiotic.
The most common cause of a tick right from cam break in is a bad lifter(s).
And I'm talking about a tick like the OP described. Sounds to me he knows what it is too. That's what I read. Not contentedness. lol

One other thing you mentioned that I don't really agree with was getting a cam to match his engine.

He should get a cam to match what he uses his car for. There are a wide range of cams that match his engine. The more important thing is usage.

Well, since there is a lot of talk about it, here goes. A while back after rebuild number one I had a loud tick like this. Traced everything I could think of. Finally in desperation I replaced the cam and lifters. The tick remained. I eventually swapped on the old valve springs and was met with blessed silence.

Happy ending, right. Er, wrong. So I ordered new springs since my old ones were so old I thought they were maybe original. New springs, still no tick. But not much later she’s running rough. Two wiped lobes on the cam (actually they never ticked but it ran rough). Then I dropped a valve. That set me way back.

So since I wasn’t planning on having to buy heads I used this 703 cam because I had it and it “should” work. But the tick makes me nervous and I feel the cam is not the best choice. I would be more comfortable replacing it but would want to be pretty sure what I got instead was more suitable.

Sam

he said he knows the cam is a little small for the compression but its what he had. sounds like hes hoping to find the cause of the tick first before worrying about changing the cam. therefore, hes content with what he has for now...

sounds to me like you're just reaching for things to argue with, you have cherry picked comments from myself & others & completely disregard ideas from "other characters" that i'm willing to bet have far more experience & knowledge with these things than you do. yet when we state facts about h/s lifters having a sewing machine noise or make a reasonable suggestion to try & diagnose other causes, (fuel pumps, exhaust leak, bad valve guides, etc etc) your only suggestions are to just replace the cam/lifters... throwing parts at it! or saying sewing machines dont tick... the common term for h/s rocker noise is sewing machine operation or "tick."

i didnt mention matching the cam to his engine, the comment was pertaining to you suggesting he change cams to get a "better" cam & fix the tick, i said that was fine to suggest a cam matched to his engine/compression. the goal of matching a cam is to match it to the engines specs & the cars usage. both aspects are important, not just usage.

no need to quote me again, i was only replying to the topic of this thread, sorry if you dont agree with me or others.

That's exactly where I was so I went conservative on the cam after the bad new 703 with the lifters that came with it. .

Sure wasn't going with anything like what didn't work.

I'm really happy with 2157 Edelbrock cam and the lifters that came with it.

The engine runs smooth, quiet(a blessing) and has great power from 0 to 100.

Have to be very careful with it now because you can break em loose in any gear.

I do have to use two bottles of 108 octane booster per tank with 93 octane to stay away from spark knock.

That's after I timed it by ear. It pinged bad setting it with the light. lol

I did get a few PM's saying that you had to be careful which cam you used with these heads. Lots of stories of failures.

The Edelbrock web site states that the 2157 is suitable and well tested so I felt that I was taking all the guess work out of it.

It's the season to drive here and you don't want any guess work. Guessing is for winter. Glad the wrenching is over and we can drive it now.

Until and unless you've had a tiny exhaust leak that sounded like a tick, you won't know how it sounds exactly like a valve train tick. So simple to check this before disassembling motor and changing valves, or rockers, or lifter, or cam. As simple as an oil change, maybe simpler if using some oil additive works like someone suggested. An exhaust leak tick will also be in time with the cam rotation and can sound like it is coming from even the opposite side of the car.

I'm one in favor of trying the simplest things first.

Yup

I would back off the lash while the engine is setting there idling. Going through each adjuster trying to make the noise louder then tightening it back down. You should be able to change to sound of the tick if it is coming from the cam or lifters. Jay

Gentlemen,

Some good advice here. I guess I'm a little cocky from the last tick I tracked down. I'd gone through all the exhaust leak stuff and I did tighten up on everything here again for this one. I've also relashed all the valves. I've also felt all the rockers. But doing the back off and tighten thing is good advice (if messy) and I will try it to see if it points me anywhere.

Sam

It is messy, hot, and not fun. I suggest turning the idle down pretty far and do one bank and leave the other valve cover on if your going to do it. Maybe take a screw driver up to your ear and listen for the noise and see if it is louder on one side and start with that side if you can tell anything. It sounds like you already know the tricks for tracking down noises though. Good luck.

OK. So not sure what is different this morning. Didn't have much time between getting up and heading to work. Spent that time on the vac advance. But I noticed something new.

Cold start (and it sure as hell isn't "cold" here -- nearly 100ºF) no tick. In fact, no tick when I messed with timing. No tick, in fact, until maybe three minutes into my drive. But then it was back loud and proud as ever.

It's never really gone. It's definitely "hey, what's wrong with your car?" noticeable. But it sure goes very quiet and almost gone by around 1600rpm. We have guests tonight. I'll just have to see how soon I can look at the rockers again..

Sam