Quick/Fast-Ratio Steering Box Rebuild
 

Another PS box thread...

I'd like to rebuild/convert the original Saginaw steering box in my 70 GTO to a quick/fast-ratio unit with 35# valve weight for a more modern feel.

I think I've narrowed it down to powersteering.com or leepowersteering.com. Seems like these are the two most highly regarded and with lifetime limited warranties. Also looks like powersteering.com is significantly cheaper, unless I am missing something.

Can anyone tell me about their recent experiences with either and/or any other companies of equal quality/warranty that I should consider?

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

I think you already have a quick ratio?

I upgraded my '72 Lemans Sport convertible with a replacement steering gear for a '86 IROC Z28 from O'Reillys for $140.00. It's a factory replacement 16:1 ratio. Same physical case as your '70 GTO, bolts right in. I did it in 2006. Not had a problem with ever since. It's 3.5 turns lock-to-lock.

If you are looking for the lower ratio / quicker 1-/12.7:1 ratio, you will pay a lot more money for it. Unless I'm doing autocross or road work, I personally don't need that quick a steering, but it is definitely a big improvement over stock for a whole lot less money. That's my 2 cents.

I installed one of hectors boxes. Works flawlessly.

https://www.facebook.com/17146197959...0798668330552/

I had a great experience with powersteering.com
Rebuilt box and pump, restored to original colors..... and quick ratio.

My gearbox should be returning shortly from PS.com

Highly recommended with great rep & customer service.

i bought mine here..i researched it a bunch and looked at feedback and reviews..

ebay.com/itm/64-76-AMC-GM-Intl-Jeep-Fast-Ratio-Power-Steering-Gear-Box-w-Coupler-LARES-974/221893361287?epid=110211144&hash=item33a9dffe87:g: MnUAAOSwUKxYkq3O

weird...it wont link..do a copy and paste

I have Hector's box too. So far so good. 3 1/4 turns lock to lock.

You could also check out "Turn One"

I have a rebuilt one from Hector that I had done just for a spare still in the box,

I've used powersteering.com twice. Good service, works great. But expensive. If you go with some other replacement box, just be sure to check the stops. Some of the replacement boxes have different stop positions than our GTOs and the car can't do U-turns with those boxes. I believe the firebird boxes have different stop positions (shorter wheel base cars require less offset to make the u-turn when compared to longer wheelbase cars I would think the IROC box might have the same issue but I have no first hand knowledge of it.

Exactly right. Folks get caught-up in "turns lock-to-lock" which means N-O-T-H-I-N-G unless you ALSO discuss lock-to-lock turning angle. "F-body" and plenty of other GM cars have steering stops in the steering box. The older "A-body" has NO stops in the box--the steering knuckle bumps against a reinforced pad on the lower control arm. A box with steering stops provides a very wide turning circle.

NEXT, folks get caught-up in "ratio", which is important, but just as important is the diameter of the steering box torsion bar. It's the torsion bar, not the gear ratio that provides "modern" steering feel.

Angle, torsion bar, ratio, all three important.

The older Jeep Grand Cherokee steering box is the budget answer---proper angle for A-body, second-largest torsion bar, and fast ratio (assuming it was rebuilt properly--and aftermarket mass rebuilders DON'T guarantee that they'll use the "correct" parts. I bought three direct from used vehicles so I can be fairly sure they've got the OEM parts inside. The two "downsides" are that you need a different steering coupler (but you probably need that anyway!) and the PS hoses that come with the older A-bodies don't fit the metric threads of the JGC box, and the hose sealing at the box is different.

" It's the torsion bar, not the gear ratio that provides "modern" steering feel."

BINGO !


https://leepowersteering.com/pages/s...feel-explained


.

What exactly is the "Torsion bar"?

The torsion bar actually slides inside the input shaft. One end is pinned to the shaft while the other is pinned to the spool cap. As the driver turns the wheel, he actually twists the torsion bar, moving the valve. Once the bar has twisted a certain amount, the valve is opened completely and the steering assist is activated. You can use different size torsion bars to adjust the amount of effort required to turn the steering wheel. Smaller bars twist more easily, requiring less effort from the driver, while thicker bars do the opposite. Most short-track drivers prefer a 235 or 250 valve. The numbers represent the thickness of the torsion bar in thousandths of an inch (a 235 valve would mean a torsion bar that is 0.235 inch thick).

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp...ering-systems/

A common complaint with ‘60s muscle cars is the lack of “feel” in the steering wheel compared to newer cars. Many assume this comes from increased line pressure. The reality is a little more complex.

Inside the steering box, splined directly to the steering column, is a small torsion bar. When the steering wheel is initially moved, this input twists the torsion bar. Original ‘60s steering boxes used very small diameter torsion bars to minimize the effort, creating that “one finger” feel.

https://www.chevyhardcore.com/tech-s...ower-steering/

A topic of interest, valving and road feel. I bought a AGR box with 12:1 ratio and upgraded from the standard 210 valving to a firmer 220 valving. Absolutely outstanding out on the open road with the firmer valving. The upgraded valving provides a firm road feel, like what you might find in a modern sporty car like a BMW, etc, yet for my needs it's adequate for around town and related parking. Side note, info offered for general interest only, the purpose was not to necessarily endorse AGR.



.

So...I appreciate all the advice, but the original question was rebuilding my original Saginaw box to @ 12.7:1 ratio with 35# valve weight as described on Lee's website and similar to powersteering.com. I believe that would eliminate stop issues and provide the modern/responsive feel I am looking for. Any downfalls, aside from $$?

I realize this may be a more expensive route, but would retain a stock appearance/originality.
Seems like between the two companies, powersteering.com has had more use/positive feedback. Can anyone comment on Turn One of any other vendors worth considering for my application/specs?

Also not sure you are looking for this info but if you ship the box and/or pump, make sure to double bag it and tie off each of the bags. One of the boxes I shipped ended up leaking PS fluid which destroyed the box, etc. it made it to PS.com but was quite a mess.

I had Tom Lee build me a Steering Box back about about 2004,
it is still like brand new and very easy to make turns vs the old 3.5+ turn factory box.
I got spoiled with the quicker steering when I owned my 1978 Trans Am.

For a few years Tom Lee was out of the steering box game but in the last couple of years
is back building high quality steering boxes.

Just a post from a happy Tom Lee customer.

Tom V.

Its a lot more then the torsion bar... I had Mark S. at SC&C explain it too me... Best bet is Lee steering... https://leepowersteering.com/

Tom Lee retired several years ago and LEE Steering is now run by a former employee. I had them rebuild a JGC box with the stiffer 35# bar for my El Camino. Effort is about as close as you can get to manual steering at a moderate cost and still retain the ability to parallel park with ease. Same great service and quality as before.

Thanks for the new info on the business.
Tom V.

So...powersteering.com can do the fast ratio conversion, but not the 35# valves. He mentioned he could lower the pressure to get a stiffer feel.

Lee power steering scoffed at the idea and highly suggested the 35# valve upgrade for a 12:1 conversion to get the feel I'm looking for. For $750+ shipping...starting to rethink my strategy.

So what about the jeep box swap again...less turns & firmer feel, but need to change the rag joint?? AGR?? Does the IROC box have the right stops?

Really want less turns AND firmer feel with the correct stops without the big price tag...<sigh>

IROC box does NOT have the right stops.

You would be better off with the Jeep box for proper steering travel.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/jeep...ring-box-swap/
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp...g-box-upgrade/

I was fortunate enough to score a 1986 monte ss box for 50$, removed it myself used a chevy truck rag joint tapped in Lee power steering flair adapters , no other changes works real nice

So I am guessing that Lee is buying up all the Monte Carlo SS boxes? Same for Hector's rebuilds?

Seems like those and the Jeeps are the easiest swap. Getting online now...

So...let me see if I understand correctly. The Jeep boxes have the 12.7:1 ratio and same stops as A bodies, but same TBar diameter as stock A body box. So no difference in firmness?

And Monte Carlo SS boxes have 12.7:1 and larger diameter TBar, but wrong stops??

Am I missing something??

The Jeep boxes have a .195 T bar and are much firmer (20-26 lbs) than the stock A body box (15-21 lbs) but not as firm as the .204 bar (24-30 lbs) found on the late 80s Monte SS, Hurst Olds, Buick GN which as you said, have a different turning radius. I can't explain why the Jeep box is firmer with the same T bar but when I changed my stock El Camino box to the Jeep box the difference in firmness was evident.

Jim Shea Steering Papers are a good read on this subject.

http://jimshea.corvettefaq.com/?cat=4

Edit;
As I read through the different models in Jim's papers I noticed that the early Camaros had the same effort as the early A bodies, 15-21 lbs, but are listed with a .175 T bar. Makes me wonder if the .195 A body T bar size is a misprint.

Yeah...that was one thing that was confusing me as I compared specs between the A bodies and other vehicles on Jim's spreadsheets.

Seems like the Jeep boxes are the closest in spec and probably the most cost effective solution, especially if there is a perceived difference in firmness.

If you care to there are a few Youtube videos out there that go through the steps on how to rebuild the Saginaw boxes. I did mine 3 years ago without too much trouble. I bought the rebuild kits from RockAuto and the kit wasn't very expensive.

I have the same as OG. I have a Lee in my 69 el Camino I also did the suspension with SC&C stage 3. I have the Saginaw 800 14:1 I got the 30 pound valve and its heavy but so nice!! I am using the Grant 13" steering wheel.. These el Caminos have the heavy duty #1942 frame that allows them to handle so well... Seriously, I've driven high performance sports cars that could come close in the handling dept. to my suspension updated 69 el Camino and it all looks stock as the day it came off the show room floor..

I've had several boxes from Lee and every one was fantastic, I must admit this last 14:1 800 Series box built under the new ownership is just as good if not better then the older Lee boxes..

So...more research and I could only find Lee and AGR that do different/upgraded torsion bars in their rebuilds. AGR is about $200 less than Lee for what appears to be a comparable product.

Lots of companies will do an exact fit quick/fast ratio box, but that's it. Prices anywhere from $145 (Cardone) to $450.

So humor me...what would be the issue with buying a remanufactured steering box for a 1988-90 B-body (Caprice?) or 93-98 Grand Cherokee from Advance Auto or similar? According to Jim Shea's spreadsheets they are a 12.7:1 box with the right travel (43 deg 30 min), 0.195 diameter T-bar, and 20-26 effort for Caprice (similar for GC)? Gotta think this would be much less expensive, but guessing would need a new coupler/rag joint and the hose fittings would be metric/flared...anything else? Would the standard T-bar in these still not be firm enough?

Something like this...https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/...6530/3790150-P. $150 less 15%. 3-3 1/2 turns to lock not enough?

The issue is that the mass rebuilders don't guarantee that their box meets original specs.

You will likely get a "good" one. But you're not guaranteed to get one build "right". If they run out of the proper torsion bar...you get whatever is handy. They mis-mark a gearset, you get the wrong ratio.

I looked into this years ago. The packaging says that the part inside meets all the specs for OEM, in fact they'll claim it's better in some ways. When you actually get ahold of Customer Service, they tell you that it'll fit and function, but internal parts aren't guaranteed to be "correct".

So there's the risk: Dramatically lower price, you may have to install and send back several before you get one that's what you wanted to begin with. And just because YOU get one that's correct...or not correct...doesn't mean that thirty other people got what they wanted, because in the end it's a diceroll.

THAT is why I bought used Grand Cherokee boxes right off the vehicles. They may be used--but at $30 each, and I have several, I'm bound to have a good one for even less than the mass-rebuilder price. The rag joint is gonna cost me the same no matter who I buy it from; which leaves only pump and hoses to dick with. Lee, I think, sells brass "seats" for the old style hoses in the new-style boxes. Supposedly, the metric threads in the new boxes are "close enough" to the SAE threads of the old style hoses that it isn't a problem when you press in their brass hose seats so the flared hoses have something to seal against.

I'm more likely to use specialized fittings to convert to the aftermarket so-called "AN" (it's not really "AN", that's a long-obsolete military spec that today's parts are unlikely to meet except in the most general terms) hose ends and hoses.

I can live with that.

Considering AGR's 12:1 box (292117) w/ .210 valve. Supposedly all 'Made in America' and $200 less than Lee. 1 year warranty or 2 year if you buy their fluid to flush/fill, which is @ $75. That seems like larceny to me, but might be worth the added warranty.

Anyone have experience with AGR/boxes (thanks Steve for the info)??

No one with recent AGR experience that can vouch for their products/customer service?

Always hesitant with vendors I've not used before and without feedback...got burned in the past.

Lots of comments on the Chevelle site. Just type AGR steering in the search box

https://www.chevelles.com

Interesting read about experiences with the AGR boxes/customer service. Seems like it could be hit or miss.

Here's another player that I found...Borgeson 800 series 12.7.1 with equivalent to .210 valving feel (different valving unit build from stock) for $445 from Summit and with good reviews. Anybody tried this one? Very interesting. Ridetech raves about it on the protouring.com website and comes with a 3yr warranty.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/brg-800130

Bump for more input, as I'm considering the same box for my Cutlass.

My box was rebuilt by Lee (the company, not me) in the early 90's. Felt AMAZING, at first. They rebuilt the pump as well, but the pump always seemed a bit off. Eventually got noisy, and replaced it with a parts store pump - worked better. Then the box started feeling sloppy, maybe 8 years (but not a lot of miles) later. I did a basic rebuild, installed new balls, etc. Don't remember why I didn't send it back, don't think I realized it was supposed to have a lifetime warranty.

Anyway, after the car being mothballed for about 8 years and an LS swap, the car had its first highway trip recently and the steering feels horrible. Lots of slop, wandering on the road. I know, I need to check EVERYTHING, but not many miles since all suspension was rebuilt. Feels like the box to me.

My opinion? If it's a brand new casting and internals, you'd likely be money ahead if the quality is there.

The 40+ year old factory boxes are getting worn out. I have rebuilt them and they do well, but you can see that the internal seals are going to start failing and leaking again just like they did when they were new after 5-10 years. The more neglected ones will have hard parts clearances going south too. If I wanted a firm modern feeling box, I can't see you going wrong with that box at the price if the build quality is there. Stepping up to the more modern Delphi stuff is considerably more expensive.

When I called Borgeson awhile back and asked about different stops the said my "suspension tie rod ends/spindle should stop it and all their boxes for A or F bodies are the same"

I decided to go for it and ordered the box, pump, rag jont/coupler and hose kit from Jegs for less than the Lee box would be alone.

FWIW...I talked to Borgeson and they said it has a total of 88 degrees of travel and equivalent to 30-35# feel. Talked to Ridetech also and they said I will be pleased...we shall see.

Please keep us updated!

Will do. Just got them today...only 2 days to arrive from Jegs (very nice).

Probably will be awhile before I can comment, as the car is mid-way through restoration.

This is a great explanation. I've spent lots of time on the phone with Lares trying to explain the problems with my steering box feel, and they never brought this up. Not to mention their box has dead zones when the wheel is centered. I need to look for my next box. Lee is not making them now due to Covid.

The Borgeson box supposedly has the feel of a 210 valving and 12.7:1 ratio.